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View Full Version : Bigger bases on mixed units: the ultimate discussion



innerwolf
10-02-2009, 10:23
Hi, I wanted to hear everyboody oppinions( and rule arguments) to clarify an issue which gives headaches to most gamers:

Uneven bigger( or smallest) bases on mixed units.
Example 1:
-Mounted character(25x50) on 20x20mm infantry( see atachment)

As you can see, the character fill the space of 2 models plus half of the other one. So he displaces 3 models. Following the recent FAQ, he would count as 3 models. Using another logic, you have 5 models in three consecutive ranks, so you should get 2 ranks bonus.

Some people argue that the mouned character don't completely fill the 3rd space, so it only counts as 2 models. But it's following the 6th rules. Now, if you displace a model(even by a bit) you count as taking his place.

The problem is: if you place the model in the middle of the unit instead of one side, it displaces 6 models! This sounds too abusive, but if the first instance is correct we should also acdept this one( even if it can be avoided by placing the mounted characters on the flanks)

Another argument of "count as two" followers is that a model uses his US to see how many models it displace. It's wrong on two accounts. first, there is no written rule on 7th which talks about that. Second, it creates a problems which will be treated on the next examples.

Example 2:
-Doombull( 40x40) with bestigors( 25x25)
Here the Doombull incompletely fills 4 spaces, and it's generally accepted it couns as 4 models. For coherency it should be the same with cavalry characters.
Now on US argument: A Doombull has US 3( ogre sized infantry), so, shouldn't him( following this logic) displace only 3 models? And what models? Two on the front and one on the back, so you have to place an extra odd model in the second rank to get the bonus? Or one on the front rank and two on the second rank?

Example 3:
- Random Chaos/Daemon hero on Juggernauth/Daemonic mount( 50x50)

We see no problem with fitting, but... if we used US to count the displaced models, we would have a problem. his models only have US 2. So we have the same problem we had with Doombull. The character fills 4 spaces but only count as two models? What do you have to do to get the second rank, do you have to place one extra model on each flank?

I hope I have summed up all the problems/arguments so you can take your side and contribute with your points of view.

Asmodiseus
10-02-2009, 10:32
In the FAQ it stated that a cav model in a infantry unit displaces 2 models. A 40mm model in a infantry unit displaces 4 models

I believe the very technical term they used was you have to "fudge" it a little

About the US you do have a point, it is weird, but I see no reason why you would count the doombull as US 4 when he is clearly US 3. Same with the Chaos question simply replacing models does not mean you magically gain US.

The Red Scourge
10-02-2009, 10:39
I believe the very technical term they used was you have to "fudge" it a little

I like those technical terms ;)

TheDarkDaff
10-02-2009, 10:39
The FAQ also states that you place the Character outside the unit.

The best line i have found in the errata is "just pretend the Characters base is the same size as the unit he is joining". If you Character on Horse joins an infantry unit then just pretend he is on an infantry base. It gives the most correct observance of the rules unless you want to use T10's famous diagram.

Necromancy Black
10-02-2009, 10:59
I personally play with a 5-10mm space for error.

So a skink preist in Saurus will just be one model worth, while a COR in skinks would be 2 models worth.

It doesn't fit exactly but I think it's simple, follows the know rules we have fairly closely and people seem happy to play with it.

TheDarkDaff
10-02-2009, 11:16
I personally play with a 5-10mm space for error.

So a skink preist in Saurus will just be one model worth, while a COR in skinks would be 2 models worth.

It doesn't fit exactly but I think it's simple, follows the know rules we have fairly closely and people seem happy to play with it.

I go the other way. I physically displace the models to make the Mounted character fit but i must have that displaced model on the back to count the rank (if that makes any sense to anyone but me).

innerwolf
10-02-2009, 11:18
Asmodiseus, it says "generally". It's talking about perfectling fitting base sizes. And US and rank bonus are not the same thing. You don't magically gain US. You gain rank bonus.

TheDarkDaff: the FAQ says it's for friendly games and not a desirable solution. They point to the first solution as ideal( even if difficult), which is putting the character inside of the unit. And you missunderstood the" just pretend.." part. If you keep reading it says a 25x50 base should be counted as the multiple of it, 2 25x25 bases.

Necromancy Black: It looks simple but, with the COR you have to push the base to the front in order to have the unit correctly deployed, and it looks weird. If you don't do it and leave a "skink space" empty, but the fraction of the COR base doesn't count as being on it, you have 4 skinks on the second rank and you don't get this rank's bonus.

Asmodiseus
10-02-2009, 11:38
Yeah I see where your coming from innerwolf Rank bonus is defiantly more of a problem than US.

For me it just makes the most sense that you break down how many infantry bases each base size takes up and displace that many models

infantry bases = 20 or 25mm
Cav bases = 25X50 or 2 infantry bases
Ogre bases = 40mm or 4 infantry bases
Monster Bases = 50mm or 4 infantry bases
Chariot bases = 50x100 or 8 infantry bases

Honestly I dont know why GW just doesnt go to 25 mm bases for all infantry and mount ogre size models on 50mm. It would make to much sense I guess.

innerwolf
10-02-2009, 11:59
Yeah I see where your coming from innerwolf Rank bonus is defiantly more of a problem than US.

For me it just makes the most sense that you break down how many infantry bases each base size takes up and displace that many models

infantry bases = 20 or 25mm
Cav bases = 25X50 or 2 infantry bases
Ogre bases = 40mm or 4 infantry bases
Monster Bases = 50mm or 4 infantry bases
Chariot bases = 50x100 or 8 infantry bases

Honestly I dont know why GW just doesnt go to 25 mm bases for all infantry and mount ogre size models on 50mm. It would make to much sense I guess.

Your proposed solution is good and all, but it's oversimplificating things.

On 20x20 mm units there are problems with cavalry bases, monster bases and chariot bases. 1 cm is not something which can be disregarded easily. It's half a 20x20 mm base.
Having character's bases protruding from the front is a practical house rule, but it leaves aside the fact that if we align the base with the smaller ones we have part of the model in the next rank. Whether just having a model present on a rank means this model is part of the rank is the question to dilucidate.

nosferatu1001
10-02-2009, 12:04
The two different bases sizes are afor a reason - if you put empire halberdiers on 25mm base they would be vastly (ok, even more vastly) outclassed by Orcs; bigger bases are to reduce teh number of models that can attack.

The "fudge" idea is correct - they are essentially saying don't be silly - so a 25x50 bases should only ever be 2 models worth, whether it is in 25 or 20mm infantry units. It just looks silly to suddenly say it should count as displacing 4 models, as you would have enven weirder looking middle ranks -0 missing 15mm looks worse than having an extra 5mm in there, in my opinion!

Braad
10-02-2009, 12:28
I think the idea for 'cavalry = 2 infantry, monster (40 and 50 square) = 4 infantry' is quite nice. Stick to what is the closest resemblence.

Asmodiseus
10-02-2009, 12:45
Your proposed solution is good and all, but it's oversimplificating things.

On 20x20 mm units there are problems with cavalry bases, monster bases and chariot bases. 1 cm is not something which can be disregarded easily. It's half a 20x20 mm base.
Having character's bases protruding from the front is a practical house rule, but it leaves aside the fact that if we align the base with the smaller ones we have part of the model in the next rank. Whether just having a model present on a rank means this model is part of the rank is the question to dilucidate.

That is exactly what Gw meant by "Fudge it" it wont line up perfectly, but its better than any alternative. The biggest problem is for 50mm and chariot bases in a unit of 20mm infantry but even then it makes more sense to say they equal 8 models than to remove 3-4 models in each rank for them.

innerwolf
10-02-2009, 13:16
I never understood what GW meant with "fudge it", but now I suppose this was their intetion, so for the moment I will follow the most common trend (cavalry base=2 models).
But I think both solutions are equally valid, so a 4+ seems fair if the issue appears on a game.

On another note, a chariot base would displace 10 20x20mm infantry models or 8 25x25 models. It's the only size which fits exactly with both infantry sizes. So Corpse Cart on Skelletons=huge unit :(

Asmodiseus
10-02-2009, 13:56
Yeah that does make sense, it displaces 10 20mm bases or 8 25mm bases.

The Red Scourge
11-02-2009, 13:05
On another note, a chariot base would displace 10 20x20mm infantry models or 8 25x25 models. It's the only size which fits exactly with both infantry sizes. So Corpse Cart on Skelletons=huge unit :(

Shush! Don't say it out loud, those necromancers will suddenly become popular again ;)

Braad
11-02-2009, 15:23
Not necessarily. You need only 3 skellies to make a rank with the corps cart. Since the corpse cart completely fills 5 ranks of them, you only need 15 skellies to have a square block with a rank bonus of +3 and some spares.

KillbotFactory
11-02-2009, 22:08
Until somebody targets the necromancers kicking the corpse cart out of the unit and leaving you with a rank bonus of 0.

theunwantedbeing
11-02-2009, 23:44
Simple enough to rank things up.