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gaiaterra
10-02-2009, 13:26
Right, because I have some spare rime on my hands and am a bit bored I have decided to take action, well partial action, and am starting a new thread to try and put an end to a question that plauges the rules forum constantly.

What is and is not magical in the game of Warhammer?

So, I give you, the members of Warseer

The Use Some Bloody Common Sense FAQ and Guide to Magic in Warhammer

This will be an open ended guide to what is magic that anyone can add to, but please donít turn this into one long argument, if you have a point to make justify it sensibly and donít just spam the whole thing with rubbish.

Ok, we will open this topic with the major cause of the whole is it is not magic argument. Games Workshop in their wisdom created a number of rules that rely on something being magical in nature (Ethereal etc) without fully explaining what magical means in relation to the game of Warhammer.

So let us engage common sense mode.

From a fluff perspective I view something being magical if it draws on the winds of magic (a no brainer really) or is divine powers granted by deities etc.

With that in mind I view the following to be magical.

ē Spells

ē Attacks made in close combat with magical weapons.

ē Damage caused by magic items and special abilities that have a magical nature (Malekithís magic repellent shield etc)

ē Damage caused by miscasting.

I always viewed the attacks made by magical ranged weapons as magical, however I think what is stated in the Wood Elf army book and the Dark Elf FAQ makes sense. I am now of the opinion that the magical nature of an attack made with a magical ranged weapon depends on the weapon itself. If the weapon is a bow or crossbow etc with magical properties, then attacks made by it are not magical because the arrows, bolts etc that would be used are not magical. If the weapon is a magical staff etc that fires balls of magical energy at things then the attack is magical. Best rule of thumb is look at the army book, read the description of the weapon and come to a decision with your opponent. Because of this I view attacks made by most runed Dwarven war machines as non magical, the cannon may have mystic scribbling all over it but the thing that comes out the end is still a just a large heavy ball (I usually count any of attack made by a war machine with the rune that make flaming attacks as magical because, it wraps previously mentioned ball in magically created fire.

Above is the general system I use for determining whether something is magical or not, itís not perfect and there are exceptions, but it covers most situations that can arise in game.

The rest of this topic can now be used to discuss the exceptions and whether something is magical or not. Remember to stay on topic though and donít let it turn into a GW cant write rules whinge, I donít mind a bit of playful bashing whilst making a sensible comment, but donít let it go further than that.

Asmodiseus
10-02-2009, 14:07
I beleive your list is accurate and is what I use but I think in the spells portion you should add that spells that give units free attacks like Van Hels or the TK incantation do not make those attacks magical.

You also need to add ranged attacks made with magic ammo (only applicable to WE at the moment)

Also people may argue that a certain item has a magical ability when others say it does not.

Sifal
10-02-2009, 14:41
It has been kind of covered by 'magic weapons' but there are weapons that troops carry that do magic attacks - ensorcelled blades for instance.
Does the comet of casandora do magical attacks? it is a spell that casues a comet to hit the earth but the comet itself is just a big lump of mundane stone/metal/ore etc...?

gaiaterra
10-02-2009, 14:45
Good points.

There are attacks made by non characters that are magical, deamons, high elves with a banner and chaos knights with ensorcelled swords.

I do treat Commet of Casandora as magical for a number of reasons, one , its one of the hardest spells in the game to cast, two, the caster pulls it down by wrapping it in the winds of magic, and three, as it is a commet that surrounds the Warhammer world it is likely to be warpstone anyway.

Best thing to do when the magic argument comes up is look at the rules and if you cant come to an agreed upon position, roll for it.

And yes WE ammo makes magical ranged attacks (can even be used to make magical attacks with a mundane weapon).

Myself and all sensible players I know accept that the attacks that are made as a result of a successful Van Hels or TK incantation are not magical, the magic effect is to make the undead creatures move (and thus act out of turn sequence) which results in the attacks as being magical and not the attacks themselves. To me it is the magical bow with non magical arrows thing all over again

Briohmar
10-02-2009, 14:50
Skaven Ammo is also magical. Warpstone bullets are counted as magic. This includes Jezzails and Ratling guns, I believe.

r019nd
10-02-2009, 14:56
What about the Beast of Chaos Banner that gives you Poisoned Attacks. Obviously the attacks are poisoned, but are they magical as well as it is the magic banner that is magically making them poisoned?

gaiaterra
10-02-2009, 14:56
Skaven Ammo is also magical. Warpstone bullets are counted as magic. This includes Jezzails and Ratling guns, I believe.

I look at it like this, if it involves warpstone, its magical, just try arguing that pure chaos in physical form is not magical in nature.

Asmodiseus
10-02-2009, 15:00
Well I think we can safely say that all cases where it specifically states attacks are magical, should also count as magical. So this should cover Enscrolled weapons, High elves with the banner, Grave guard and black knights, All skaven shooting, All demon attacks, Forest Spirits, and god knows what else that specificly states that their attacks count as magical.

gaiaterra
10-02-2009, 15:03
What about the Beast of Chaos Banner that gives you Poisoned Attacks. Obviously the attacks are poisoned, but are they magical as well as it is the magic banner that is magically making them poisoned?

For banners that confer rules such as poison and frenzy in the case of DE, from experiance I usually say no not magical, I personally think that gaining the benefit from the banner is the magical effect and the attacks themselves are not.

Gazak Blacktoof
10-02-2009, 15:15
I stll maintain that the GW FAQs are rubbish and that ranged attacks from magic weapons should be magical. I would suggest to any opponent that we ignore the relevant FAQ sections.

How can a normal arrow penetrate ranks like a bolt thrower if its not imbued with some magical properties?

And how can an arrow imbued with magical properties not count as being magical?

Sifal
10-02-2009, 17:06
some banners like the banner of hellfire for VC say specifically magical and flaming attacks. so if a banner says poisoned or whatver i should think it would need to say magical in the wording as well to count as magical attacks. GW are notoriously inconsistent though.

Neckutter
10-02-2009, 19:36
I stll maintain that the GW FAQs are rubbish and that ranged attacks from magic weapons should be magical. I would suggest to any opponent that we ignore the relevant FAQ sections.

How can a normal arrow penetrate ranks like a bolt thrower if its not imbued with some magical properties?

And how can an arrow imbued with magical properties not count as being magical?

i wholeheartedly agree, however in the case of the WE it specifically says that their bows arent magical and that the arrows are.
all magical weapons should be considered to be magical attacks, regardless of their HtH or ranged attacks.

with the recent crop up of rules grey-areas, i think that all WHFB players should strive to be generous in any rules disputes as long as they are even slightly reasonable and not used to get an unfair advantage. the last part of the FAQ says this about moving miniatures, but it is basically an underlying theme throughout the rules. and afterall, this isnt 40K. :)

innerwolf
10-02-2009, 20:19
Empire's Dragon Bow fire magical arrows. So I suppose it counters the "mundane munition= non-magical shooting, magical bolts-shiznit= magical shooting".

Neckutter
10-02-2009, 20:36
HE bows also fire magical attacks as well. its just the person who wrote the DE FAQ got it wrong on lifetaker is all.

akgaroth
10-02-2009, 22:01
Sorry for the question, but Chaos gifts from the WoC are considered to deal magic attacks? In the book it says they're not affected by spells that nullifies magic weapons (like DoC gifts), but it doesn't says if they deal magical attacks or not. For example, Word of Agony could affect a banshee?

Necromancy Black
10-02-2009, 23:06
I think added to the list should be "any attack that occurs soley withint the magic phase". EotG fits here, and I'm sure there are a bunch of other abilites that only happen int eh magic phase that can be considered magical.

My usualy guide is the above plus "anything from the magic section fo the BRB" can do magical attacks.

WLBjork
11-02-2009, 04:08
Because of this I view attacks made by most runed Dwarven war machines as non magical, the cannon may have mystic scribbling all over it but the thing that comes out the end is still a just a large heavy ball (I usually count any of attack made by a war machine with the rune that make flaming attacks as magical because, it wraps previously mentioned ball in magically created fire.

This is one that GW have actually clarified - all shots from Dwarf Warmachines inscribed with Engineering Runes are magic attacks.