PDA

View Full Version : Empire Tactics : Detachments, Strategies, Magic



bomblu
10-02-2009, 15:06
I'm currently planning to make an empire army inspired by Magnus' phrase:

"Three things that make the Empire Great -
Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!"

Which means that I'll probably opt to have a varied empire army; from cavalry to swordsmen (rather than halberdeers ect), some handgunners and a couple of war machines, greatswords, wizards and maybe some crazy flagellents ;)

As i read through the armybook i noted that Free Company have the same stats as halerdeers so i'm confused if i should use FreeCompany or Halberds. I also dont know if shooty detachs. are better/worse than close combad ones. So i'd like some opinions.

As for wizards, i'll probably also include a warrior priest (maybe arch lector on war altar?) and two lvl.2 wizards - i'll take one offensive fire wiz tho i'm very undecided on my 2nd wizard :/

Any suggestions? :confused:

galenus
10-02-2009, 15:49
Free Company have more attacks than halberdiers, but halberdiers hit harder. What people decide to take often depends on what they will be up against. Horde army opponents would be more at risk against extra attacks, while higher toughness opponents would be more easily wounded by the halberds. With a shield halberdiers can also opt for the HW/S combo for a 4+ armour save but lose the extra strength.

The primary goal of the detachments is to charge/receive charges with the parent block and flank charge with the detachment to negate ranks and win via combat resolution. Empire infantry aren't going to do a whole lot of killing whatever way you go about it. Some people swear by swordsmen parents and swordsmen detachments just for survivability, but personally I just find it boring regardless of whether it's optimal or not. Halberdiers are supposed to be the mainstay troop type of the Empire.

A good detachment option that isn't commonly mentioned is archers. They too probably won't kill anything, but because they are skirmishers they can screen the parent block and another detachment from shooting and are -1 to hit when shot at themselves. Also, they can really redirect some potential chargers due to how charging skirmishers works, setting them up for you to charge instead and remove any potential advantages they may have had.

bomblu
10-02-2009, 20:09
Hmm...i'll most of the time be playing against Orks, some empire and maybe maybe some lizardmen

Yet i want detachments that manage to kill stuff (not a rl lot tho i'd want them to beat up about 5-10 models in the game...maybe even more ;)

Baaltharus
10-02-2009, 20:45
Hmm...i'll most of the time be playing against Orks, some empire and maybe maybe some lizardmen

Yet i want detachments that manage to kill stuff (not a rl lot tho i'd want them to beat up about 5-10 models in the game...maybe even more ;)

If you want detchaments that kill stuff then you'll have to rely on missle troops. Empire infantry other than greatswords (who aren't even that great at it) don't win fights by killing stuff, they win by static combat res. A decent tactic would be to use something like 7-10 crossbowmen and fire away at the O&G cavalry or some other juicy target. When the ork boys come to charge your parent swordsmen unit don't bother giving off a last volley because the orks will almost certainly just absorb it. Instead counter charge with your missle troops. They'll probably kill one and loose one in return. However you'll be up +1 for flank charge, up to +3 for negating his ranks and possibly +1 for outnumbering. Unless they have a seriously rock hard boss in there they'll more than likely be sent running.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
11-02-2009, 04:06
Hmm...i'll most of the time be playing against Orks, some empire and maybe maybe some lizardmen

Yet i want detachments that manage to kill stuff (not a rl lot tho i'd want them to beat up about 5-10 models in the game...maybe even more ;)

They won't kill much, but Free Company will kill more than Halberdiers.

Even against Tou 4, 4+ armour save infantry- 6 Free Company will have 12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved.

6 Halberdiers have 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 1 unsaved. So, statisically the same against the best defended infantry in the Orc army.

Against anything Tou 3, or with less than a 4+ armour save- the Free Company do statistically better. Against anything with better than a 4+, it isn't really going to matter since you won't kill anything either way.

Kalec
11-02-2009, 04:13
Swordsmen detachments work better. You can run them in a smaller, more maneuverable block since you aren't worried about getting kills, they are much less likely to take any return casualties, and negate ranks just fine.

Also, in regards to your calculations, orcs only get a 5+ against FC and a 6+ against halberdiers if they are hitting them in the flank. If they aren't, then they aren't negating ranks.

Baaltharus
11-02-2009, 16:46
Swordsmen detachments work better. You can run them in a smaller, more maneuverable block since you aren't worried about getting kills, they are much less likely to take any return casualties, and negate ranks just fine.

Also, in regards to your calculations, orcs only get a 5+ against FC and a 6+ against halberdiers if they are hitting them in the flank. If they aren't, then they aren't negating ranks.

Who are you addressing?

Laughingmonk
12-02-2009, 03:55
While I haven't used this before, I was thinking that halberdiers with shields would be a fairly flexible detachment. They may not be as fighty as free company, but they can take shields and come with stock armor. They can either fight with their halberds, or, if neceassary, revert to shields and hand weapons for a 4+ armor save.

scarletsquig
12-02-2009, 06:08
To be honest... anything that a halberd might be better at killing (due to high toughess)... is likely to be strong enough to turn the halberdier into halberdier paste before he gets a chance to strike.

Go for either free company or swordsmen as detachments. Swords are more durable, free company are fightier and cheaper.

Both have their merits... swords are probably a little better, but if you also have them as your parent unit, it's nice to mix things up a bit.

I personally like 3x3 free company and 5 archers as my detachments... free company for countercharging, archers for charge redirection, fleeing, LoS blocking, opportunistic shots against fast cavalry and generally just being a royal pain in the rear for my opponent. :)

bomblu
12-02-2009, 06:16
I personally like 3x3 free company and 5 archers as my detachments... free company for countercharging, archers for charge redirection, fleeing, LoS blocking, opportunistic shots against fast cavalry and generally just being a royal pain in the rear for my opponent. :)

Hmm...i'll probably be going for this stuff cos it makes some sense to me - though i might be wrong. But are 3x3 good enough? Being 5pts each maybe boosting them up to 4x3 would be a bit better to also hit another rank?

:confused:

Baaltharus
12-02-2009, 10:16
Its not to do with hitting, its about static combat res. The only things that kill stuff in an Empire army are the lords and heroes, the missle troops and sometimes knights. If your wanting to kill stuff with your line infantry then your best bet is greatswords but be warned that everything in the special section is better than greatswords.

Briohmar
12-02-2009, 11:21
The best set-up for a unit I have used, (and still use to this day) is 20 Spearmen with shields, 10 Swordsmen Detachment, and 8 Handgunners detachment. Yes, this nakes the unit static, but static is how you want your Empire infantry. I like to place the unit at the base of a hill with the handgunners in two ranks on the hill. A chrage on the parent unit still has to face a stand and shoot reaction (without the -1 to hit) from the 8 hand gunners, plus the two ranks of spear attacks, plus the flank attck from the counter-charge, and I usually throw in the BSB with Griffon Standard because at this point my CR starts at 3 ranks, 3 more for ranks, 1 for Banner, 1 for BSB, 1 for Flank, and 1 for outnumber. A starting CR of 10 is really hard for any unit to overcome, even Chaos Knights of Khorne. Any kills you can actually pull off are just gravy, which is why I use spears for this, as they might actually manage a wound if both ranks get to attack.

Nu Fenix
12-02-2009, 13:56
While I haven't used this before, I was thinking that halberdiers with shields would be a fairly flexible detachment. They may not be as fighty as free company, but they can take shields and come with stock armor. They can either fight with their halberds, or, if neceassary, revert to shields and hand weapons for a 4+ armor save.

The flaw in this is that Detachments can't have any upgrades, so they would only be allowed shields as a parent or independent unit.

The Farmer
12-02-2009, 20:47
Nope that was changed in 7th edition now you can give them shields in detachments, thus halberdiers with shields are probably more flexible than free company.

Laughingmonk
12-02-2009, 20:48
The flaw in this is that Detachments can't have any upgrades, so they would only be allowed shields as a parent or independent unit.

^^^ The only flaw with this reasoning is that it is incorrect ;) . Detachments cannot have commands. I have the book right in front of me. There is nothing prohibiting them from having shields.

Gaius Marius
13-02-2009, 17:31
They can now have shields.
Personally I take a Parent unit of 25+ spears with Swords men detachments 2 x 10 men. Shooting detachments are nice in smaller point games where you can't afford independent shooters and detachments, but for a combat oriented unit I go for the 2 fighty detachments. This unit and the Pope-mobile are the center of my army, while 2 units of Knights led by Warrior Priest flank, shooters, warmachines and pistoliers collectively then harass and thin out the enemy, before my combat blocks engage.

Nu Fenix
13-02-2009, 18:47
Well balls, it shows how much I have read the changes in my book from 6th to 7th edition!

Ignore this fool and his foolish words.

FallenScholar
13-02-2009, 18:50
Without a doubt one of the best essays on Empire tactics.

http://www.remanlegions.com/

Fallen Scholar

Ozorik
13-02-2009, 19:37
But are 3x3 good enough

Yes. 3x3 means that they have a small footprint so are easy to fit between blocks. They are large enough to require effort to bring below US5 and lastly they have a smaller frontage which results in fewer attacks back.

Detatchments aren't there to kill things, they are there to deny ranks and add the flank bonus. This does make swordsmen the best detatchment although I use militia and halberdiers mainly because my blocks are swordsmen.

Archer detatchments are very underrated. People only see them as expensive bow armed fodder; in actuality they are highly useful due to the fact that they are skirmishers and are very effective in the metagame. Of course their killing power is low but, again, detatchments aren't there to kill things.

My infantry blocks are 25 strong with a 3x3 combat detatchment and a 10 strong archer detatchment. The archers need to be quite a large unit as they will probably take a lot of ranged fire and magic given that they are effectively screening 2 units.

RossS
13-02-2009, 23:35
If your wanting to kill stuff with your line infantry then your best bet is greatswords but be warned that everything in the special section is better than greatswords.

God, I wish we could take Greatswords as detachments. Then, they would actually be worth taking.

Anyway, my line is always anchored by 2 units of 30 spearmen (half-pikes) each supported by 12 handgunners and 9 free company. Free company are cheap, and I have actually witnessed them kill things. But only things that happen to be exceptionally pathetic. Like Gnoblars. Or Night Goblins. 3x3 is definately the way to deploy them.