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vamp
10-02-2009, 19:30
In my campaign that will be starting soon ( with 1k army and will grow as we all paint...because painted models play better and It shows respect for the game and your opponent and everyone watching by painting your models as beautifully as is in your capacity to do so) ehehm. Anyways in my campaign I am ghe Vampire Counts...the others...

Beastmen
Lizardmen
Bretonians
Empire
Orcs


Of these the only one that has me worried is the lizardmen. Played by a friend who is almost my equal in terms of being a general. ( i know this from playing many strategy skirmish based games against him)

Anyways facing the lizardmen has me worried. Anyone out their played the new lizardmen codex with their VC army? If so what were the results? What advice would you give that would aid me in the road to an all out massacre against them?


One thing I thought of as a weakness would be their initiative and their leadership. Their leadership is fairly low.

That said I could take spell number 6 of shade magic. The one that swallows up warriors who fail their initative tests.

To exploit their lower leadership ( i know their troops have low leadership but am hoping that not every character they have sports a leadership of 10 like is the norm) I consider fielding two units of cairn wraiths with trwo banshee up grades. That could be devestating but to do it I would not be able to field the blood knights in a 2oooish game.

Anyone give a gal a hand here ? =)

ethsar46
10-02-2009, 20:52
They might not have the best leader ship, but they have the cold blooded rule which gives them 3d6 to ldship rolls and they remove the highest roll. So their leadership isnt bad actually.

Buddha777
10-02-2009, 21:43
Plus any general worth their dice who brings a slann will make him also the BSB. But as the previous poster stated saurus ld8 tested on 3D6 is nothing to expect to break and run.

Terror and fear have their uses but just don't forget things like saurus calvary and stegadons (of any kind) cause fear and terror themselves respectively. Indeed even saurus infantry can be made fear causing by adding a scar-vet with hide of the cold one.

Given VC reliance on magic do watch out for 2 crushing anti-magic things in the lizardmen list. First is a discipline of the slaan (not a magic item but an ability) which forces an enemy spell caster in LOS to discard all 6's he rolls. Second is the plaque of dominion (a banner) which causes all enemy wizards in LOS to become subject to stupidity.

Sifal
10-02-2009, 21:49
It totally depends on what they're taking. Blood knights will be great at mauling stegadons and VC magic is always effective to just keep raising and re-raising troops. Ghouls will be good as saurus and anything bigger have good toughness that poison can by-pass. I really rate wraiths personally, when used right they can crack an army. wraiths also happen to specifically exceptional against beastmen, empire, orcs and bretonnians (except grail knights) as these armies generally have a lack of magic and or magical attacks.

vamp
10-02-2009, 22:47
I wasn't speaking of their leadership being a weakness in terms of breaking and panicking.......in terms of 2 banshees however? They can have their 3 die to roll....the banshee doesn't care.


I'd like to try and keep my caster out of LOS for that reason...but the slaan rides on top and can see all on ground level. So screening my best casters with troops is out. As if this power isn't strong enough they have to give him LOS to the entire table.

Aunshiva
10-02-2009, 23:50
The power of fear is not in the initial test, but in 7 CR with outnumbering near auto break. 3d6 is an increased chance to get heroic courage, but not exceptionally so. Things that will help are the CR vamp power (it's amazing how many people miss this). Keep your troops up and you will be fine. Keep some strong flankers about to manage his strong flankers.

theunwantedbeing
11-02-2009, 00:16
Typical tactics really.
Envelop and destroy. Send in the harder hitting things to deal with the more killy enemies.

You dont have to worry about shooting so much.
Magic isnt the biggest problem either.
You can go for things like zombie dragons happily.

Fear is more for an auto-break if you can get it, rather than making them not charge you or hit you on 6's as with cold blooded it's not going to be all that common an occurance.

Black knights, Blood Knights , Mounted Character's
All good for making a mess of lizardmen, you can wreck saurus with them easily enough.

Your typical
Red fury, Dreadlance, Walking death, Zombie Dragon, Infinite hatred
Plenty to shred frankly any unit you care to run into.

Treat them like daemons, only you can break them in combat and you'll not go far wrong.

Aunshiva
11-02-2009, 00:39
Infinite Hatred and Dreadlance are redundant, but yes, it works nicely.

theunwantedbeing
11-02-2009, 00:42
Infinite hatred is for the dragon. obviously, hence I listed it after the dragon and not before it

Aunshiva
11-02-2009, 00:45
But 25 pts just to enhance the dragon? When you can get better protection for the vamp for that 60 pts?

Spirit
11-02-2009, 00:53
I would take haterd and the blood drinker, thus your T5 dragon gets his lost wounds back.

Onto Lizardmen, i played one at 2k points today with my VC and i must say, of all the things i noticed, auto breaking with fear wins the game against lizards. There really isn't much they can do against 25 skeletons with WS6 and double unit strength.

If you can get the drakenhoff banner in there you are laughing, they can have all the attacks in the world they still wont win combat.

Next, once the games get to 2k, be very wary of taking a magical vampire, having your 5-6 power dice that he generates ignoring 6's is horrible.

Black knights with a blood drinker became very hard for him to deal with, you let the slan kill a few knights with magic (thus saving dispell for the nastier spells) and get all of your models back in the combat phase.

The crimson gem of lahmia, while risky, is a nice bonus once you reach combat and you know your gonna cause a few wounds with the blood drinker.

Aunshiva
11-02-2009, 01:19
No, silly goose. Not double unit strength. 25 skellies is enough. You want the warbanner or the +4 rank bonus banner. And maybe a Walking Death vamp. +7 CR ftw.

Spirit
11-02-2009, 11:52
No, silly goose. Not double unit strength. 25 skellies is enough. You want the warbanner or the +4 rank bonus banner. And maybe a Walking Death vamp. +7 CR ftw.

No, having a guaranteed "if you lose your gone" is better than "i win by 3 instead of 2 and you still pass your cold blooded test" Outnumbered by a fear causer has been the bane of many of my opponents.

Walking death means i cannot take dark acolyte, so i rarely bother with it. I would rather have loads of chances to bring back the skeletons to over 25 than be a bit better in combat.

25 skeletons can easily be shot then outnumbered in combat, especially with US10 stegadon. (which happened in my last game)

My unit managed to force a slan with saurus to run, leaving their stegadon alone with me, but the slan dead. Without the banner the combat would have grinded for a long long time.

Usually i run 6 knights with the double US, because for 200 points they can frontal charge whole units and win no bother. But in this case my knights were big enough not to need it.

Sifal
11-02-2009, 12:02
Usually i run 6 knights with the double US, because for 200 points they can frontal charge whole units and win no bother. But in this case my knights were big enough not to need it.

Agreed, a unit of black knights with a unit str of 24 is great so long as you win combat by at least one.

vamp
11-02-2009, 17:30
Ok after listening and watching the past two days I have come up with the following list. I am deciding to field Count Manfredd. I know alot of you will say never field named Lords. To this I can only say.... He is just so coool. I must have him in my army. I really want to paint him. So give me some advice here...but please no attacks against taking Manfredd...because Im a girl...And girls are stubborn =)


The Witches of Eden


( my clever attempt at a name...I must name my armies. This stems from years of Necromunda and Mordhiem having to name my warbands)


575 Count Manfredd Von Carstien /w skull staff and Crown of the Damned

303 leading 19 graveguard full command Banner of the Barrows

135 Wight King B.S.B. Royal Standard of Stirgos
135 leading 10 skeletons full command banner of the dead legion
This unit is never to far off from my grave guards side. Preferably with 6"

195 Vampire- Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Sceptre De Noi Rot, Flayed hauberk
88 leading 10 ghouls with crypt ghast

200 1 Vampire- Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred, Enchanted Shield, The book of Arkham
at the behest of ( love that word =) 5 blood knights , full command Kastellan has
the sword of kings


92- 23 zombies


100 Corpse Cart? Bale fire.

This is the one i'm unsure on. Im sure I might be able to find something more effective for my 100 points but I like the flavor and style the unit brings. As it interferes with casters and causes me to strike first rule it is a handy addition to any Count's list. But still am somewhat undecided when on this unit.



Total Points--2248


Their it is in all its green nooby glory. I know I haven't a single wolf or bat and I lament this but I do have magic out the wazooo for summoning in many screens and filling ranks and one nasty blood knight unit for cracking the toughies. And 20 zombies off the start gives me a nice big cheap unit to hide behind. This army doesn't neccessarily address lizardmen specifically *, but I still feel it would be a powerful fun army to wield. Let's here it bois!


* if this army goes up against Lizardmen I would likely take Count Von carstien himself instead of Manfredd and take an additional vampire in place of the wight king. This is because if he uses his silly power which I forget the name of...lol...but if he uses this mystery super power that ignores my rolls of 6's when spell casting he will only tie up 3 of my dice and not 5 or possibly 7. And the Count is mighty up close and personal. I would also consider dropping 500 pointish to take along two unit of cairn wraiths with accompanying banshee's for each unit. Then no longer can their crappy leadership hide behind the veil of cold blood! Pretty smart huh?

vamp
11-02-2009, 17:38
What is the range of that ability that reduces my rolls of 6's in the magic phase anyways?

Aunshiva
11-02-2009, 18:26
No, having a guaranteed "if you lose your gone" is better than "i win by 3 instead of 2 and you still pass your cold blooded test" Outnumbered by a fear causer has been the bane of many of my opponents.

Walking death means i cannot take dark acolyte, so i rarely bother with it. I would rather have loads of chances to bring back the skeletons to over 25 than be a bit better in combat.

25 skeletons can easily be shot then outnumbered in combat, especially with US10 stegadon. (which happened in my last game)

My unit managed to force a slan with saurus to run, leaving their stegadon alone with me, but the slan dead. Without the banner the combat would have grinded for a long long time.

Usually i run 6 knights with the double US, because for 200 points they can frontal charge whole units and win no bother. But in this case my knights were big enough not to need it.

Umm, first, if you're getting the +4 rank cr, you will be outnumbering them. The extra +1 helps to guarantee you WILL win. If there are only 10 skellies left and you lost the fight due to outnumbering, you have graver issues. The combat would only grind for one more turn, where upon a few quick rezzes would have had you on top again. You WILL NOT win a straight up fight against most armies because of your weapon skill and average stats. Saurus will win the combat portion, so your only option is to stack passive CR.

You don't take Walking Death on a vamp meant to res, you take it on a vamp meant to KILL. His kills add to the active cr of the unit, the passive cr stays as is, and you win by a land slide. Even if you encounter blender units a +7 CR should hand you the victory, which against demons it is vital that you win by as much as inhumanely possible.

Vamps should be tooled for a purpose. In this case your Lord and One vamp are designated rezzers, the other two are active/passive CR assisters in your skeleton units. When you drop below your starting number of skeletons, your lvl 1 vamps start rezzing first to soak dispells and to maximize efficiency, then your Lord (with +2 to summon skellies) single dies the rezzing, your other caster (with Book of Arkhan or Black Periapt and a scroll) assists.

In the end, the point I am trying to make is that I am used to always outnumbering. Whether I outnumber by 5 or 30 it doesn't matter. Free ranks are what matter. The Warbanner is what matters (and I can safely assume that that is an auto include for you, right?). And yes, I know, if that unit gets flanked, it loses all of that CR. But I have been flanked many times and still outnumbered my opponents, so in my view better 25pts that work if I am careful rather than 25 pts wasted because I always run the big blocks.

MURPH
11-02-2009, 19:28
Range of Becalming Cogitation is 24''.

It doesnt take much to ignore fear with the new lizards. All they have to do is spend 114pts on a scar vet on cold one and throw it in with the saurus.

MURPH

Neckutter
11-02-2009, 19:35
lizardmen definately will do extremely well against you. 3d6 leadership and their anti-magic will neuter your army in those respects. what would be a better thing to do is try to beat them in close combat, and outnumber them so their leadership isnt relevant. your best bet would be large blocks of ghouls, or blood knights, grave guard, or black knights.

their heroes are really good for their point cost as well. all in all, i would say cairn wraiths would be a great investment.

W0lf
11-02-2009, 22:59
Yes ghouls are better then skellies vs lizards thanks to ws 3.

People dont tend to use car vets in the lists ive seen. Priests on engines/slaans/cheif with warspear are common and pts intensive.

I wouldnt take wraiths againts lizards as EoTG and slaans will cause them all kinds of merry hell.

Pavic
12-02-2009, 01:19
First, let me say, I rarely play against VC, so my understanding of them is quite limited. However, I am an avid Lizardmen player, so I will make a few points about their strengths.

First, flexibility is the biggest strength of the LM. Lists can be made heavy magic, big dino, block infantry, MSU, and on and on. If you opponent is allowed to change lists for each game, this could cause you some real issues.

Second, Fear is not necessarily a huge deal to LM. As previously mentioned, Scar Vets on Cold Ones can be added to any saurus block to allow for fear immunity. In addition, a huge number of choices for the LM cause fear or terror, which could really negate any advantage. It is very easy to create viable builds with every unit causing fear, except for perhaps the occasional skink unit (which shouldn't be in combat anyhow).

Third, the anti-magic abilities and items the new LM book contains could be a serious issue. Although I do not believe the stupidity banner would be that big of a deal, the take away 6s ability and pass on a miscast item could be very problematic.

Fourth, the EotG. Your units, including the bloodknights I believe, can take D6 Str 5 hits with no armour save allowed every turn.

Fifth, Stegadons. If used in a pair (ancient stegs in this example), and especially if a chief with the warspear is involved, a charged unit could take 3D6+2 impact hits and then face 3 WS4 S6 hits from the chief, 9 WS2 S3 hits from the skinks, and 6 WS3 S6 hits from the Stegs. I don't care what kind of unit receives this charge, it is going to be hurting. Also, remember that ancient stegs can stand and shoot with there giant blowpipes, which means a charging unit of bloodknights would be facing 4D6 Str3 Poison shots.

Lastly, don't forget the Carnosaur. If this guy gets into combat with your characters, you can bet he will challenge, and a model S7 model that can deal D3 wounds with a heavy character swinging on top will be very dangerous. Heck you might even have to face the new blade from the Oldblood, which means that your vamp lord could be facing 2 to 3 LD checks per turn, and failing one would result in his death.

Hope that helps.

Major_Blackhart
12-02-2009, 02:40
With all the magic in a Lizardmen army, and that in a VC army, would a black coach also be a possible choice to take?

AngryAngel
12-02-2009, 03:30
If a LM player is going magic heavy I'd love to see what impact a black coach could have. I hope it would suck up all his dice and then crush him with the unholy power.

Spirit
12-02-2009, 11:55
Ok after listening and watching the past two days I have come up with the following list. I am deciding to field Count Manfredd. I know alot of you will say never field named Lords. To this I can only say.... He is just so coool. I must have him in my army. I really want to paint him. So give me some advice here...but please no attacks against taking Manfredd...because Im a girl...And girls are stubborn =)


The Witches of Eden


( my clever attempt at a name...I must name my armies. This stems from years of Necromunda and Mordhiem having to name my warbands)


575 Count Manfredd Von Carstien /w skull staff and Crown of the Damned

303 leading 19 graveguard full command Banner of the Barrows

135 Wight King B.S.B. Royal Standard of Stirgos
135 leading 10 skeletons full command banner of the dead legion
This unit is never to far off from my grave guards side. Preferably with 6"

195 Vampire- Dark Acolyte, Summon Ghouls, Sceptre De Noi Rot, Flayed hauberk
88 leading 10 ghouls with crypt ghast

200 1 Vampire- Dread Knight, Infinite Hatred, Enchanted Shield, The book of Arkham
at the behest of ( love that word =) 5 blood knights , full command Kastellan has
the sword of kings


92- 23 zombies


100 Corpse Cart? Bale fire.

This is the one i'm unsure on. Im sure I might be able to find something more effective for my 100 points but I like the flavor and style the unit brings. As it interferes with casters and causes me to strike first rule it is a handy addition to any Count's list. But still am somewhat undecided when on this unit.



Total Points--2248


Their it is in all its green nooby glory. I know I haven't a single wolf or bat and I lament this but I do have magic out the wazooo for summoning in many screens and filling ranks and one nasty blood knight unit for cracking the toughies. And 20 zombies off the start gives me a nice big cheap unit to hide behind. This army doesn't neccessarily address lizardmen specifically *, but I still feel it would be a powerful fun army to wield. Let's here it bois!


* if this army goes up against Lizardmen I would likely take Count Von carstien himself instead of Manfredd and take an additional vampire in place of the wight king. This is because if he uses his silly power which I forget the name of...lol...but if he uses this mystery super power that ignores my rolls of 6's when spell casting he will only tie up 3 of my dice and not 5 or possibly 7. And the Count is mighty up close and personal. I would also consider dropping 500 pointish to take along two unit of cairn wraiths with accompanying banshee's for each unit. Then no longer can their crappy leadership hide behind the veil of cold blood! Pretty smart huh?

I would try and fit a varghulf in there somewhere, they are rock solid against most things.

Remove the corpse cart, they are (in my experience) only good in numbers and with a highly specialized list.

Cairn wraiths also seem to be nasty vs lizards, for all their magical dominance, you have skirmish and M6, so there is no need for you to get shot by magic.

jax40kplyr1
12-02-2009, 14:04
So far I've played 2 games with the new lizzies, both against VC. My favorite build right now for a Lord is running an Old Blood with BoR, EC on a Carnosaur. In 1 game, he charged the VL on Zombie Dragon, targeted the dragon, hit it twice, which it failed both it's LD checks, giving me +6 CR right there. Lord failed to wound (1+ AS is great), popped from CR. Second game, he charged a unit of 5 blood knights, a dread knight vampire and a Wight Lord with Regen Banner. Turn 1, popped the Vampire, passed LD check to stay in combat. Turn 2, popped Wight Lord, killed 1 Blood Knight with CR. Turn 3, killed the rest.
In my opinion, BoR is the anti-VC Lizzie tactic now - with the exception of the VL, everything else has pretty crappy LD. Charge a Vargulf - only have to hit once and he has to pass a LD of 3! Wraiths, Black Coach, etc. etc. - not great chances. Diadem of Power on a LvL 2 Skink Priest = 5 dispel dice.
Returning to the above posts though, they are quite right. Saurus don't have the greatest saves and are very vulnerable to poison (everyone will be running them with spears). Magic weapons are few and far between, so ethereal will do nicely.
On the flip side though, running into a unit of spear wielding saurus is definately going to be interesting - I run mine wide, so your talking a maximum of 25 Str4 attacks coming back at you.
Charge the stegs, otherwise the impact hits are crazy. Stubborn LD 6 has something like a 60% chance of succeeding. Get your CR first by attacking and killing the skinks - a couple of players kept going after the stegs, and T6 is pretty darn hard to wound.
All in all, I think Lizzies are a great match up with VC, despite everyone complaining that VC are unbeatable and Lizzies are so underpowered.

Count Demandred
12-02-2009, 14:17
575 Count Manfredd Von Carstien /w skull staff and Crown of the Damned



Mannfred cannot take the Crown of the Damned.

blackjack
12-02-2009, 15:22
You are wrong about the plaque of dominion. The Slann only counts as a large creature on his magic phase. All other times your vamps dont have LOS to him or his TG as long as you hide in your bunker behind your ghoul blocks. Also keep in mind stuiped rolls can use your lords LD10 if he is within 12'. Heck 1/2 the vamp armies I play against use the crown of the damned on the vamp lord anyway.

As for the rest of his army.

Raise zombies, van hels into the steg, issue solved.

Raise zombies and vanhels into old blood and carni = 450+ points wasted for the lizardmen.

If you cant van hels then just angle the zombies to force a redirect.

2 Carts and vamps will shut down the slann's magic = wasted 400 odd points for the lizards.

etherial and heavy cav will cut saurus blocks to ribbons.

I dont' honestly see how a well built, well run vamp army can lose to a lizardman army.

Malorian
12-02-2009, 15:36
The reason that lizardmen are so dangerous is that they have so much killing potential and coldblooded to deal with fear.

A unit of saurus cav can charge in and hold a block on their own and spear saurus will absolutely shread any undead block in no time.

Ethereal units can be a pain but as long as you have a character or two with magical weapons (scimitar of the sun or piranah blade being the best) they they will just disappear.

If I was to pit my vampire list (Lahboura) against the 2K lizardmen list I'm currently working on I would give the advantage to the vamps only due to the lack of magic weapon. Otherwise my ghouls would be cut down so quickly it would be hard to keep up.

Assuming I get ASF the ghouls go first with 11 attacks, 5.5 hit, we'll make one poison so of the other 4.5 1.5 wound, killing 1.25 spear saurus. 11 saurus attack back with 22 attacks hitting with 11 and killing 5.5.

With the 7 saurus cav again we'll get the ghouls attack first with 11 attacks, 5.5 hit, we'll make one poison so of the other 4.5 1.5 wound, killing 0.42 saurus cav. Assuming they kill one that's 12 str 5 attacks from the saurus of which 8 hit (WS4) killing 5.3, and the cold ones have 6 attacks, 3 hit, killing 1.5 for a total of 6.8.

Now keep in mind that there is two rounds of combat before the vamps can heal again and if several blocks are engaged at the same time then that's a LOT of healing. It gets even worse if the lizardmen player finds a way to force it into one large combat making all the vampire units crumble even more.

vampires are cool!
12-02-2009, 15:56
If your set on Manni, then your best off with the Skull Staff and The Staff Of Damnation. You'll burn through his dispel dice and then immolte him with all your attacks.

Lizzies are a problem for the Counts, mostly because they have rock hard units and are very good at staying in one place. But, as has been mentioned before, enough zombies and all your worries just melt away. That said, a combat army works well. Lots of ghouls, skeletons with spears, corpse carts and black knights and your laughing.

madival
12-02-2009, 16:21
thats why the wraiths would be there. Those high priority targets are all outranked by a simple unit of wraiths, who i summon to full the following round

Malorian
12-02-2009, 16:33
Just a note that a scarvet with a piranah blade on a cold one (half the cost of a good sized unit of wraiths) could very easily be wipe out those wraiths in one round of combat.

So be very careful with them...

madival
12-02-2009, 16:52
Just a note that a scarvet with a piranah blade on a cold one (half the cost of a good sized unit of wraiths) could very easily be wipe out those wraiths in one round of combat.

So be very careful with them...

those are the unit you gotta avoid like the plague :D

Whitesox
12-02-2009, 16:55
Played against Lizardmen the other day in a 2k game...

Won pretty easily mainly due to my block of 28 spear skellies with FC War Banner and led by a vampire thrall (they start the game at 14 models)

They didnt look too threatening but the beauty of VC is the ability to take different abilities which can make a 'mundane' unit rock and they were sat next to graveguard (which people assume is going to be the hammer unit :))

They killed 18 saurus' with spears and a skegedon so won me the game

I combined 2 ASF corpse carts (soone atleast gets it off), lord with helm to give the unit WS7 and the vampire was a CR generator with Walking Death, Infiniate Hatred, Flayed Hauberk and Sword of Might

the unit was pretty cheap for the damage output and the skellies hit on 3's and wound on 5's with 14 attacks and the vamp hits on 3's which is rerollable and generally kills on 2's with 3 attacks plus the unit starts the round with a CR of 7

Dungeon_Lawyer
12-02-2009, 20:41
[QUOTE]Ok after listening and watching the past two days I have come up with the following list. I am deciding to field Count Manfredd. I know alot of you will say never field named Lords. To this I can only say.... He is just so coool. I must have him in my army. I really want to paint him. So give me some advice here...but please no attacks against taking Manfredd...because Im a girl...And girls are stubborn =)

Corpse Cart? Bale fire.

This is the one i'm unsure on. Im sure I might be able to find something more effective for my 100 points but I like the flavor and style the unit brings. As it interferes with casters and causes me to strike first rule it is a handy addition to any Count's list. But still am somewhat undecided when on this unit.
[QUOTE]



Lose the named lords. a personalized by you vamp with helm of commandment is so much more tactically flexible. Helm of commandment wins games. Corpse carts are great, nothing to be unsure of there. I would take two. Black coaches give me fits when I play VC with my lizzies. underappreciated i guess with all the really good stuff VC gets to choose from. Its a great list.

vamp
12-02-2009, 21:57
Manfredd can take any item 2 items he wishes with no point restrictions. Why couldn't he take crown of the damned?

I have said Im new many times boys. Being new I do not understand what the H-E dubble hockee stick you mean by Eotg and CR ( though I guess cr means combt resolve).

Giving Manfredd the skull staff in combination with the staff of damnation was something I never thought of but what an idea. That makes him brutal at stopping spells. And two corpse carts besides. That deals with his magic big time. that puts him at -2 to cast any spell and me at +2 to dispel it. Talk about being shut down. But I had to spend 300 points ish to do it. And thats not counting Count Manfredd.

The rest of my units in a tourney army would need to be set up to defeat him in close combat. For that I'd need wraiths so as not to worry about getting hurt by stegadon charges or skinks and their pesky blowdarts.. Maybe spend 500 points on a wraith banshee combination of two units. With two banshee upgrades?

Question. Can units that are ethereal such as banshees, spirit hosts and wraiths take wounds from losing the combat resolve? It says they are immune to all attacks except magic. How does this work?

Dungeon Lawyer. If you took the time to read my first post then you'd know that Im well aware of how many people think its a bad idea to take named Lord's. I said from the start I was aware of this opinion but wasn't interested in hearing it again here as I am taking him. As for the crown of commandment couldn't I just give it to another vampire with weapon skill 6? Whats so bad about weapon skill of 6? Thats still far higher then any standad unit will have and still making my zombies or skeletons hit on 3's.

That said with this brutal anti magic Count manfredd build I do worry about protecting him. He has no Armor Save or Ward Save to speak of with both staffs. He does have 5 wounds. But it makes me a little nervous. But I guess much must be risked in war. What da ya think bois?

AngryAngel
13-02-2009, 04:19
Quite honest, nothing to do with tactics here however. If it feels good do it. Who are we to tell ya what to do with your list ? At the end of the day your the one who has to play with it. Why not try out your own ideas and ours ? Make us proud out there.

Dokushin
13-02-2009, 04:43
You are wrong about the plaque of dominion. The Slann only counts as a large creature on his magic phase. All other times your vamps dont have LOS to him or his TG as long as you hide in your bunker behind your ghoul blocks.

Two things wrong here.

1) Slaan has LOS as a large target during all phases, as per the Lizardmen armybook. Enemies do not have line of sight to him...

2) ...but it doesn't matter because the Plaque of Dominion because it affects units that have LOS to the bearer or the unit he is with.

woodulikeanother
13-02-2009, 05:38
i havent faced the new lizzies yet either with my VC's and my brother has the lizzies, but heres what i would try i guess, im just as noob to them as you Vamp.

i would go CC/magic rounded army

so try 2 of your chars with dark acolyte and extra lvl
and the other 2 with avatar of death and either lord of dead or walking death

for core units
19 skels full cmd
20 zombies
15 ghouls
2 corpse carts one with the skels and one with ghouls (keep these units next to eachother so it is -2 for casting attempts on his wizards in range of 24)
2 units of 5 dire wolves to take out his skink units or salamanders

2 units of 6 black knights
5 blood knights
unit of cairn wraiths prob 5 or 6 strong with banshee
not sure of point total here but should be 2k or maybe a little over

Spirit
13-02-2009, 14:48
Question. Can units that are ethereal such as banshees, spirit hosts and wraiths take wounds from losing the combat resolve? It says they are immune to all attacks except magic. How does this work?



Crumbling is a completely seperate rule to ethereal.

If wraiths lose a combat by 3 (because they may be outnumbered, the enemy may have ranks or a standard, or indeed because they are fighting a magical weapon that has wounded but not killed the unit, ect) then they take 3 wounds.

Ethereal does not ignore these wounds, as they are not attacks from the enemy.

The only way to minimise this, like all undead, is to have a BsB near them (or indeed in WITH them, as i love to do)

vampires are cool!
13-02-2009, 16:29
Vamp, you may need to reread your book a bit. Building an army and using one require a lot of indeapth knowlage of your chosen force.

Dungeon_Lawyer
13-02-2009, 18:40
Dungeon Lawyer. If you took the time to read my first post then you'd know that Im well aware of how many people think its a bad idea to take named Lord's. I said from the start I was aware of this opinion but wasn't interested in hearing it again here as I am taking him. As for the crown of commandment couldn't I just give it to another vampire with weapon skill 6? Whats so bad about weapon skill of 6? Thats still far higher then any standad unit will have and still making my zombies or skeletons hit on 3's.

That said with this brutal anti magic Count manfredd build I do worry about protecting him. He has no Armor Save or Ward Save to speak of with both staffs. He does have 5 wounds. But it makes me a little nervous. But I guess much must be risked in war. What da ya think bois?

I did take the time, obviously, since my reply addressed specifics issues addressed in your first post-but.....onto other things. Yes a helm of commandment on a WS 6 vamp will do the trick. It just does the trick nicer with a ws 7 vamp.

Caine Mangakahia
15-02-2009, 18:46
Currently halfway through a 2750 point game vs Slann Lizzies.

Team players:

Corpse Carts with balefire (at this point game took 3 over my usual 2)
Wraiths (Still alive, keep them away form the rest of your army so that Comets will target them and not much else)
Black coach (took a charge in the rear from a stegadon)
Skull staff and Staff of +1 dispel

DANGER! Will Robinson DANGER!:

Stick to invocation of nehek and don't rely on vanhels, a slann will use his ignore 6 on your dice to nerf your lord, bu't IoN is still fairly reliable. Anythin else will be scrolled

Saurus cavalry and Stegadons hit HARD. Lost a massive unit to a combined charge.

Salamanders can pump out awesome damage.

Aunshiva
15-02-2009, 20:37
ws7 is a break point, that's why its better to take it on the Lord. Normal WS3 troops are now hitting your skeletons on 5's. That's a horrible jump from hitting them on 3's!

Whitesox
15-02-2009, 21:17
ws7 is a break point, that's why its better to take it on the Lord. Normal WS3 troops are now hitting your skeletons on 5's. That's a horrible jump from hitting them on 3's!

i know thats why i have a unit of 28 skellies with spears with a thrall backed up by a bunker unit and caster lord with helm....

the skellies kill more things then my graveguard unit led by a vamp... that takes some doing

Pantsless
18-02-2009, 03:08
Crumbling is a completely seperate rule to ethereal.

If wraiths lose a combat by 3 (because they may be outnumbered, the enemy may have ranks or a standard, or indeed because they are fighting a magical weapon that has wounded but not killed the unit, ect) then they take 3 wounds.

Ethereal does not ignore these wounds, as they are not attacks from the enemy.

The only way to minimise this, like all undead, is to have a BsB near them (or indeed in WITH them, as i love to do)

I don't think you can have a BsB with the unit. If I remember correctly, you cant have any other magical items to become ethereal, and you HAVE to be ethereal to join an ethereal unit. I'm tired right now, so I could be off a bit.

Sifal
18-02-2009, 11:24
you can make a vampire ethereal for 50 points and make him BSB for 25 and he may join ethereal units. he can never take any sort of magic item or magic banner though.

Baron Von Rotten
22-02-2009, 21:43
Stegadons do not react well to the Banshee's Howl......
Their low leadership is very detrimental in this case.

Roxors45
23-02-2009, 04:21
Vamp, how many threads are you going to start, all with the same purpose to glean information on how to destroy your arch enemy; who I'm not even sure knows your obsession, and it is obessing, with defeating him. They have different titles and what not, but as long as I see the OP is Vamp I click to read and realize its the same rules questions, and army comp dribble. Has anyone else realized this?

Fight him, post a battlereport, learn from your game (since you always say you won't play warhammer on the forums), and then prepare for game 2. Don't you have some painting to do? :)