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Dogskills
04-12-2005, 20:49
I am collecting a Highelf army and my regular op is a Lizardmen player. It would be nice to hear some ideas of how to best cope with the slimy amphibians. This is what he usually have in a 2k battle. And I am not going all cav or megamagick..

Saurus Lord
Bsb
2 spellcaddies
He use different items does not have any real favorites.
Core
20 saurus h/s spawning of armour..
12 skink scouts
15 skinks
3 swarms
Spec
8 saurus cav
3 krox
Rare
Stegadon
2 moving spitting slimy bastards

By the way what do you think about his list?

Flypaper
04-12-2005, 22:47
...it's not very good, actually. The three swarms practically scream "I'm saving money!", and it looks like he's overloaded on Saurus heroes who don't serve much of a role in the list. I assume the BSB goes with the Cavalry? Eight Cold Ones is a ridiculous point sink - they're simply too expensive to run in bulky units like that.

Now, the way to beat that list is to (a) divide and conquer, and (b) take out the point sinks and don't worry too much about the rest. I'd suggest ignoring the Saurus altogether and focussing on earning ~400 points by slaughtering the Cavalry. Good thing they only have 3+ armour...

...so for once you have a good reason to pack archers! Bolt throwers to keep him nervous, Eagles to keep the Saurus cav from marching. I know you said you don't want all-magic, but if you have just enough to get off a single magic missile a turn through his defense then you can get rid of the Skinks pretty easily.

The way to beat a Stegadon is simply to win combat and make it take a break test on that horrible L5. That means static combat resolution and trying to keep it from getting the charge (though it probably won't break elven leadership if it does). A nice wall of spears should do it (use the bolt throwers to force your opponent to advance into them), or if you're feeling adventurous you could try to flank it with 12+ White Lions.

Silver Helms aren't that great against this army - he has swarms and a big block of hard-to-kill saurus as anvils, and kroxigors to act as hammers... And Saurus Cav are better at receiving a charge than most cavalry. I'd go light on chariots, too, as you don't want to lose them to a great-weapon-hauling saurus hero or the Krox.

...having said that, chariots are great against the Salamanders. Since the Sallies are the only unit which can convincingly hurt your rank and file, it might almost be worth a suicidal charge into the unit... No matter what you do, try to get them into close combat as soon as they're in shooting range. Which shouldn't be too hard with the M9 units you have available.

Reavers should be worth a try - being able to abuse massively superior manouverability would be handy in this matchup.

If you play on heavily wooded tables... Then good! He's going to have to channel his few hitty units through predictable routes and you can shoot him up the whole time. About the only problem is the possibility of the Salamanders advancing under cover; in which case you should seriously consider some elven woodcraft - scouts, White Lions, whatever - or simply boosting your magic and rolling on the Lore of Life.

The short form, tactically:
- Bring enough shooting and ranged magic to force him to come to you.
- Isolate and kill the Saurus Cavalry and the Stegadon. Keep the Salamanders distracted if not dead.
- Drop back into defensive mode and keep him from scoring many kills in return.

nurgle_boy
04-12-2005, 22:56
this list deserves a great big...

meh...

i9 take it the skink priests hang around alone, or in crummy skinky units?

go for warhawk riders (can HE take them?) or great eagles, to deal witrh the buggers. line up a charge within about 12" of them, and by the laws of averages, they will run 7", letting you cut them down with you flying charge of 20".

after this, load up on lore of fire spells, or another magic missle heavy lore, and pummel him a little bit, whilst pelting him with arrows and RBT (always fire multishot, even at the cav. a single SC dead from a bit bolt, or a chancwe to kill 6 (average of 3 hits at long range, 4-5 at short, wounding on 4's, so another 2-3 wounds, and he will most likely fail at least one 3+ save.)).

cav could be a real game winner for you. a few charges lines nicely into the saurus unit, from the front and flank, could knock it flying, and with the good charge range of dagin princes,you can probebly hit the skinks and make it so they flee...


maybe consider taking a dragon to literally terrorize the poor skinks. LD5 no?


oh, and excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes... im helluvatired..

Dogskills
05-12-2005, 00:01
Thank you, I dont think that his list are that bad.. Even though it is built around units that he likes and not necessary to be a uber kill everything army. So what do you think about this list and it is not precise.

Prince
Bsb
lvl2 wiz
lvl1 wiz (caddie)
CORE
20 spearmen fc
10 archers (got them in metal nice)
5 silverhelms fc
SPEC
6 shadows
2 chariots (like them want them)
10 swordmaster (got them and painted them)
6 ellyrians
RARE
2 eagles
2 repeater boltthrowers

Flypaper
05-12-2005, 10:11
If you're only facing two level 2s then don't waste points on a caddie! You've got the option of either dropping the level 1 and spending the leftovers on combat troops, or boosting him to level 2 and actually getting a decent magic phase. Either option is that much more elegant, no? ;)

My objection to the opposing list wasn't that it's not uber-killy enough. Heck, my list is here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=282670), and as you can see I take plenty of room for units I enjoy playing and wanted to paint. The problem with your opponent's list is that there's no clear strategy for it, and that there's elements to it which are downright counterproductive. As I mentioned in my first post, it really looks like he just went for the financially cheapest possible option - which is fine in itself, if it's what you can afford or want to spend on Warhammer, but if you do that you've got to play smart and accept the existence of some tactical holes.

As for your list... Well, aside from the caddie thing I think it's sweet - it's pretty much exactly what I'd recommend. Not a tourney army by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a Perfectly Acceptable Casual Army (tm), and it's both varied and balanced enough that you should have some fun games with it. Tactically it's got the two main elements I recommended - maneouverable units and long-range offense - so you should have some game against your opponent.

...Except you should probably up the swordmasters to twelve (eleven with the BSB!). Not that it really matters. ;)

Edit @ Nurgle Boy: HE can't take Warhawk Riders - they're a WE exclusive. Grumble stupid Terradon-special-rule-stealing hicks grumble. HE get two-for-one-rare Eagles instead.

Dogskills
06-12-2005, 20:42
You got some good points there Flypaper, I will most def drop the caddie and do some somthing more creative. About my friends army selection he does not save money, he does however a policy not to buy a new unit until the one before are fully painted. That is why it is a little bit on the smallish side. Thanks for you help. One question though if you think that my army selection is good and tacticly sound and so forth then why does it (in your opinion) not cut it in tourny enviroment?
Thanks!

Flypaper
06-12-2005, 23:14
It's not because of any tactical limitation - it's more a matter of raw power. High Elf units aren't aggressively costed (to put it mildly), so the main tournament archetype is to focus exclusively on what the army does well and ditch everything else as a distraction.

...So, inevitably, cavalry and magic. :)

I'm not a HE expert, though, (I mainly play against them ;) ) so I'd probably get the specifics wrong if I tried to assemble a list. I'd suggest looking up a HE race specific forum on Google if you're interested in any advanced stuff.

Dogskills
07-12-2005, 07:11
Thank you Fly that was what I thought. I am a bit of a strategy nerd so I don not like to put my trust in magicks and one dimensonal lists.

nurgle_boy
07-12-2005, 08:38
Thank you Fly that was what I thought. I am a bit of a strategy nerd so I don not like to put my trust in magicks and one dimensonal lists.


now thats what i like to hear! you one of the people that restore my faith in the game with balenced lists, and tactics (extra points if you theme the army)

oh, and flypaper, sorry about the warhawk riders. you can tell i dont play elves, cant you?