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Kronos
11-02-2009, 00:28
Hey was just wondering if any of you think Skaven assassin will become a unit upgrade or staying as a hero choice (where they should be imo).

dark elves have them as unit upgrades, same goes for NG fantaics (they're just very noisy and messy assassins:p)


If so would you welcome the change or would you prefer eshins best to stay as a hero with the other clan type heroes?

Seandy
11-02-2009, 01:57
-delete-delete-

fastcarfreak
11-02-2009, 02:24
I personally feel that they should go back to unit upgrades, should go down in points but should lose an attack. I feel that if dark elves get assassins as unit upgrades, then so should skaven. Back in 5th edition I used to love fielding skaven assassins. Now I very rarely field one at all. make them compare to dark elves is the only way to keep the game on even playing fields.

Foegnasher
11-02-2009, 03:00
the dark elfs dont take hero slots. if ours do they better be BAD ASS.

sulla
11-02-2009, 03:48
It's hard to say. With DE, assassins as non heroes is a good idea because there is a lot of pressure on hero slots in the DE list.

In skaven, if you take them out of the hero mix, what incentive is there to play any heroes except mages? So, the first order of the day should (IMHO) be to make skaven fighter/leader characters competitive with magic users. Only once this is done should assassins be considered. It may then be felt that they are viable competition for fighter/leaders and mages. If so, they could be left in the hero slot (and boosted in power a little). If not, they could be moved to infantry units like in the DE book.

Sarah S
11-02-2009, 04:10
It's hard to say. With DE, assassins as non heroes is a good idea because there is a lot of pressure on hero slots in the DE list.

In skaven, if you take them out of the hero mix, what incentive is there to play any heroes except mages? So, the first order of the day should (IMHO) be to make skaven fighter/leader characters competitive with magic users. Only once this is done should assassins be considered. It may then be felt that they are viable competition for fighter/leaders and mages. If so, they could be left in the hero slot (and boosted in power a little). If not, they could be moved to infantry units like in the DE book.


I think that indicates that the other Skaven hero choices are crap, not that Assassins need to be characters. Give the Skaven some decent hero slots choices (Moulder hero that rides giant beastie for example) and put some pressure on those slots for something other than Wizards.

As it is now, Skaven Assassins are more expensive, crappier and an extra hero slot when compared to Dark Elf Assassins. That's garbage. And a pox on those who are ready to jump in with "you can't compare across books!" The entire idea of a point system is so the armies can be comparable when brought to the table. An actual 6 turn game of Warhammer, pushing the models around the table, is nothing more than a comparison of the units across books.

Foegnasher
11-02-2009, 04:25
I think that indicates that the other Skaven hero choices are crap, not that Assassins need to be characters. Give the Skaven some decent hero slots choices (Moulder hero that rides giant beastie for example) and put some pressure on those slots for something other than Wizards.

As it is now, Skaven Assassins are more expensive, crappier and an extra hero slot when compared to Dark Elf Assassins. That's garbage. And a pox on those who are ready to jump in with "you can't compare across books!" The entire idea of a point system is so the armies can be comparable when brought to the table. An actual 6 turn game of Warhammer, pushing the models around the table, is nothing more than a comparison of the units across books.


what this one said.

there only 4 slots in a 2K game.

now, you need leadership. so you need a warlord. 1)
you HAVE to have a bsb. 2)

now you have 2 slots left, and you've got only 2 dispel dice. you dont have a regular hero level wizard, so you are forced to take at least 1 scrp;; caddy. 2 if you ever want to get a bolt of warplighing off at all!

so where in the heck do i have room for an assassin? who, with magic to make him scarey, is just as expensive as a full unit of clanrats!?


i say, make him badass, with upgrades and acess to eshin magic items, and then make him a rare slot choice.

loveless
11-02-2009, 04:29
Just bring back the Eshin Triad from SoC along with a unit upgrade Assassin.

Arguably, each of the 4 major clans should have an option in each slot in the army (Character, Core, Special, Rare)

Foegnasher
11-02-2009, 04:39
Just bring back the Eshin Triad from SoC along with a unit upgrade Assassin.

Arguably, each of the 4 major clans should have an option in each slot in the army (Character, Core, Special, Rare)

my thoughts exactly that'll work too.

i want a eshin and moulder rare, dag-nabbit

innerwolf
11-02-2009, 07:19
I love the Eshin Triad! If GW brought them back I could even consider playing Skaven.

ChaosVC
11-02-2009, 07:31
I always thought Skaven players first love is clan skrya? Scrya? Skya? ...Whatever...anything with a rattlin gun and warpfire throwers.

I have a feeling that making Assasins troop upgrade heros that doesn't take away character slot will be too powerful. But Making then normal heros would be unfair to skaven lovers...considering that what Darkelves get. Maybe we should make a poll about this?:eyebrows:

General Squeek Squeek
11-02-2009, 08:12
I always thought Skaven players first love is clan skrya? Scrya? Skya? ...Whatever...anything with a rattlin gun and warpfire throwers.


As a skaven player I'm offended by the lies that are spread about us. :mad: We prefer no greater clan over another, all are needed to complete the design of the Great horned rat and bring the day of skaven ascension, And then the skaven will take over the world (as soon as I said that I couldn't help but think of pinky and the brain :D).

j/k

on a more serious not I think you see more people playing skyre skaven now not because they prefer it, but the other units are just plain crappy in comparison. The warlock engineer is a no brainer, as he's needed to provide basic caddy assistance, or to spam them to get off their warp lightning. Other then them you have chieftans that are blah, moulders that are basically an expensive chieftan blah unit, plague priests are limited and fragile, and assassins that will most likey do little more then say boo before being horribly slaughtered.

I really hope skaven assassin are completely redone. I wouldn't even mind keeping them in the hero slot (although I wouldn't prefer it), so long as they recieve a major overhaul.

ChaosVC
11-02-2009, 08:28
Hey, I completely agree with you on that one, the other clans just couldn't perform as well as the clan Skrye(yea I finally got it right thanks to you.).
It just make clan Skrye:p the the no brainer choice.

After looking at the lizardman book I was quite jealous being a chaos warrior player MOSLTY, seeing how most of their units can create better synergy between one another, forsaken anyone...

Perhaps, skaven will get a Chaos Hugs Every Happy God Treatment and end up every bits of each clan working happily with each other like the lizardman units!!! Happy Hug Every Council Of the Thirteen!!!:evilgrin:

theunwantedbeing
11-02-2009, 10:04
As it is now, Skaven Assassins are more expensive, crappier and an extra hero slot when compared to Dark Elf Assassins. That's garbage.

DE assasin with an extra hand weapon and a repeater handbow.
1pt more than a Skaven assasin.

The only things a skaven assasin will lose out on by being a unit upgrade and not a hero choice are as follows:

1. No scouting on his own.
2. No multiple assasins leaping out of the same unit (after you yell "spring foth burly protectors!")

You'll get more item allowance, they'll be cheaper.
A unit upgrade assasin is a good thing.
Look what the dark elf assasin got.....you'll be basically getting all that too.
Not to mention your assasins are actually pretty damned good, as opposed to the 6th edition Dark elf ones.

Ward.
11-02-2009, 10:11
Perhaps, skaven will get a Chaos Hugs Every Happy God Treatment and end up every bits of each clan working happily with each other like the lizardman units!!! Happy Hug Every Council Of the Thirteen!!!:evilgrin:

But that's how they work now :confused:

Warlord_Grotsnik
11-02-2009, 11:07
the dark elfs dont take hero slots. if ours do they better be BAD ASS.

Does everything have to be "bad-ass" with you?

Disciple of Caliban
11-02-2009, 11:17
I'm pretty confident they wont remain a hero choice. What i'm less sure of is whether you will get them as a unit upgrade, or they will be available as a rare choice.

The problem with making them a unit upgrade is it would become very feasible to field nothing but units of clanrats with ratling guns and assassins. You'd have formidable firepower, enough combat prowess, and the ability to field most of your hero choices as mages. Being as GW are generally all about 'balanced lists' i dont think they'd set the book up like this.

My personal preference would be to make them a rare choice, and 1-3 assasins per slot (they should still have access to magic weapons too). This way you could field an eshin triad if you choose, or you could just buy 1 or 2 assasins to add some extra punch to a particular unit. This would also mean you'd have an Eshin unit in each section of the army book (with the possible exception of characters, but thats for a different thread)

Fraggzy
11-02-2009, 12:41
Leave them as heroes, just add a master assasin as lord ^^

Coram_Boy
11-02-2009, 19:18
I think that they should be unit upgrades, but there should be something like the shadowblade:evilgrin:. 300 points of pure awesome in the middle of the enemy army, with a bound spell of skitterleap and the ability to charge in the shooting phase if he hasn't moved that turn. that would make me so very happy :D

Foegnasher
11-02-2009, 19:33
Does everything have to be "bad-ass" with you?

"assassin" to me denotes trained killer.

he should have killing blow, a high ws, and nasty tricks. and yes i like the term bad-ass.

Shamfrit
11-02-2009, 19:52
Given that the current Assassin is only WS6, and is supposed to be the super kickass Eshin trained mystical killer in the dark...how come a Warlord is the same, and a Chieftain, barely comparable, is only one point lower...has access to better strength, more attacks...and is under half the price?

The Assassin needs to get much better, much much better.

Coram_Boy
11-02-2009, 19:58
yes... it also needs to spontaneously provide us with lots and lots and lots of cathay lore, as I need that for my own purposes :evilgrin:

Foegnasher
11-02-2009, 20:09
Given that the current Assassin is only WS6, and is supposed to be the super BAD-ASS Eshin trained mystical killer in the dark...how come a Warlord is the same, and a Chieftain, barely comparable, is only one point lower...has access to better strength, more attacks...and is under half the price?

The Assassin needs to get much better, much much better.

fixed your typo.:D

Condottiere
11-02-2009, 22:26
Read somewhere that Skaven like to go in groups, so it will be more appropriate to have an actual assassin as a unit upgrade; probably there will be one or two Special Character assassins.

w3rm
11-02-2009, 22:37
as soon as I said that I couldn't help but think of pinky and the brain :D.

It's pinky, it's pinky, it's pinky and the brain, brain, brain, brain, brain, brain, brain, brain Repeat for hour upon ends :P

Warlord_Grotsnik
12-02-2009, 00:26
"assassin" to me denotes trained killer.

he should have killing blow, a high ws, and nasty tricks. and yes i like the term bad-ass.

I really don't think you want to know why I asked that...

Foegnasher
12-02-2009, 00:50
I really don't think you want to know why I asked that...

enlighten me, Aussie-boy.

PeG
12-02-2009, 01:30
I want skaven to get both options. A clan Eshin unit upgrade that is not to expensive and also not to good. On top of that hero and maybe also lord level assassins that are better and of course cost more. These should have a decent chance of killing their equivalent ie a hero assasin should have a decent chance of killing another hero character.

w3rm
12-02-2009, 01:43
I agree with an assassin that takes up a rare slot(average assassin) unit upgrade(poor assassin, more like a multi-wound gutter runner with slightly better stats) and lord one( uber killy character of death!

Max_Killfactor
12-02-2009, 01:58
My personal preference would be to make them a rare choice, and 1-3 assasins per slot (they should still have access to magic weapons too). This way you could field an eshin triad if you choose, or you could just buy 1 or 2 assasins to add some extra punch to a particular unit. This would also mean you'd have an Eshin unit in each section of the army book (with the possible exception of characters, but thats for a different thread)

I like this idea.

I also think the Snikch should be the only character allowed to join tunnelling teams. It makes sense and would give him a cool special deployment option kinda like Shadowblade.

I also think there should be a Snikch comic book. It doesn't even need words, just awesomeness... it would be bad ass ;)

Warlord_Grotsnik
12-02-2009, 02:02
enlighten me, Aussie-boy.

I don't think so, Yanky-boy. (I'm under the perception you're American, so feel free to share your nationality if otherwise.)

Foegnasher
12-02-2009, 03:43
I don't think so, Yanky-boy. (I'm under the perception you're American, so feel free to share your nationality if otherwise.)


No prob Grotsnik. actually i'm from the southern US. so feel free to refer to me as "inbred hillbilly". :p

Sarah S
12-02-2009, 03:45
I also think the Snikch should be the only character allowed to join tunnelling teams. It makes sense and would give him a cool special deployment option kinda like Shadowblade.

Who would be silly/stupid enough to risk their 400+ point Lord choice special character not even showing up 1/9 games? I get mad enough when my 80 point Tunneling Team fails to show up.

I do like Disciple of Caliban's idea though.

Foegnasher
12-02-2009, 03:48
Who would be silly/stupid enough to risk their 400+ point Lord choice special character not even showing up 1/9 games? I get mad enough when my 80 point Tunneling Team fails to show up.

I do like Disciple of Caliban's idea though.

or show up until turn 5... those are my favorites, combat's joined, and the cannons you were trying to stop have already taxed your infantry, but the gutter runners decide to arrive fashionably late anyway.

sulla
12-02-2009, 03:55
Just because DE do it one way doesn't mean Skaven will do it the same way. I'd be tempted (if I were doing the skaven list,) to make skaven assassins part of a seperate unit choice. Perhaps a special choice of one assassin and up to 10 junior assassins...the unit has poison, extra hand weapons, throwing stars and scouts and/or tunnels. Also, the assassin can take gear from his special eshin wargear options.

ChaosVC
12-02-2009, 04:21
I think making them rare choice which work like tunnellers with better chance of poping up from the ground would be best, giving them strenght four T4 and shuriken, together a lord or hero choice character would be fun.

Cambion Daystar
12-02-2009, 10:27
what this one said.

there only 4 slots in a 2K game.

now, you need leadership. so you need a warlord. 1)
you HAVE to have a bsb. 2)

now you have 2 slots left, and you've got only 2 dispel dice. you dont have a regular hero level wizard, so you are forced to take at least 1 scrp;; caddy. 2 if you ever want to get a bolt of warplighing off at all!

so where in the heck do i have room for an assassin? who, with magic to make him scarey, is just as expensive as a full unit of clanrats!?


i say, make him badass, with upgrades and acess to eshin magic items, and then make him a rare slot choice.

Then why do i keep seeing the Grey seer + 3 engineers combo?

Condottiere
12-02-2009, 11:02
Just because DE do it one way doesn't mean Skaven will do it the same way. I'd be tempted (if I were doing the skaven list,) to make skaven assassins part of a seperate unit choice. Perhaps a special choice of one assassin and up to 10 junior assassins...the unit has poison, extra hand weapons, throwing stars and scouts and/or tunnels. Also, the assassin can take gear from his special eshin wargear options.This actually has possibilities.

Max_Killfactor
12-02-2009, 12:48
Who would be silly/stupid enough to risk their 400+ point Lord choice special character not even showing up 1/9 games? I get mad enough when my 80 point Tunneling Team fails to show up.


Who says he will still be a lord choice? A lot of DE special characters got downgraded to hero options. Maybe Snikch could also give a reroll or something to the tunnellers, or a +1 to a roll. And besides, you wouldn't have to tunnel him... just an option. So if you think it's too stupid to risk, deploy him normally. Shadowblade doesn't have to start the game in an enemy unit iirc, he just has that option.

To me it seems like he should have a sneaky option to get in combat with the enemy. Since he is a master assassin and second only to Sneek, I think he'd know how to tunnel.

Foegnasher
12-02-2009, 13:14
Then why do i keep seeing the Grey seer + 3 engineers combo?


because the guys you play suck, and wish they played 40K. I hate those skaven players. they give the rest of the horde a bad name.