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Aunshiva
11-02-2009, 00:25
The rest of the army is mildly superfluous, but I am giving thought to running a zombie dragon with my army and I am trying to make the best combo available.

Must Haves:
-Infinite Hatred: rerolls on the vamp every round, the dragon the first round. Prime!
-Red Fury: Free attacks? Thanks!
-Ward Save

Here are my concerns:

Is it best to get the 3+ ward against shooting or the 4+ ward against everything? Should I count on nearly always getting the charge off and then skimp on mundane protection?

Flayed Hauberk, yes or no? My understanding is you get no further armor for being on a dragon anyway, so a 2+ sounds like a good start. This will help against normal shots (bows and such) coming my way, certainly.

Magic weapon? If I take one, I have to use it and I eschew a lance on the charge. If I take a magic lance, neither one is particularly useful. The Blood Drinker is one of the best to take, it would appear.

Otherwise, I could take the Rod of Flaming Death for Warmachine crews (hit 2 crews at once, one with the breath, the other with the rod). The Hand of Dust would be FANTASTIC if I could fit the points (by eschewing serious magic armor and just going with Heavy+enchanted shield). The Scepter de Noirot has a few amusing uses, namely creating units of zombies that will keep their rank breaking/catching-fleeing-units-and-destroying-them ability through a round of combat or shooting. Though this may be superfluous if the dragon hits on the flank (us6 will already be breaking ranks and giving flank bonus) but may help for going after other wm crews.

Other powers: If I take the Flayed Hauberk and a magic weapon, I wont need Avatar of Death or Dreadknight. This gives me 25 pts to play with. Beguile is too fiddly to work consistently for me, but Walking Death is as good as another kill against any non-stubborn unit.

Ideas? Thoughts?

Spirit
11-02-2009, 00:34
Blood drinker, flayed hauberk and book of arkhan.

Combine with hatred (on the zombie dragon as well haha!), beguile and red fury. (beguile is always good for fighting those T4 units because you can use it on a rank and file model)

This is my favourite but i tend not to play against many cannons, and the ones i do play against always seem to miss xD

Edit: Also, im fairly sure the errata says you cannot tank dread knight and another mount, so no heavy armour and shield for you that way!
Edit Edit: And i'm fairly sure the dragon benefits from hatred as long as the rider does, not just the first turn.

Aunshiva
11-02-2009, 01:04
The jury is still out on Hatred, people answered both ways. However, since the Dragon benefits from the Hatred portion according to the rules, it seems logical that the dragon only benefits from Hatred, which grants the first round reroll. Regardless, I usually put the book on a line vamp to assist there.

I just double checked, looks like it's the balefire spike or no lance at all. Very silly. Okay then, I officially have the 25 pts free. Probably go with Walking Death then. Now it's down to magic weapons.

ScottyFargo
11-02-2009, 01:39
The jury is still out on Hatred, people answered both ways. However, since the Dragon benefits from the Hatred portion according to the rules, it seems logical that the dragon only benefits from Hatred, which grants the first round reroll. Regardless, I usually put the book on a line vamp to assist there.

I just double checked, looks like it's the balefire spike or no lance at all. Very silly. Okay then, I officially have the 25 pts free. Probably go with Walking Death then. Now it's down to magic weapons.

Dreadlance is autohit, it's kind of the default combo w/ Red Fury... or are you trying to avoid it because of it's bad reputation? 60 points, is a lance so you do get the +2 STR on the charge.

Kalec
11-02-2009, 01:53
Blood Drinker is a must-have to keep the dragon and the lord healthy without spending all your power dice. If you can fit in flayed hauberk and wristbands on him, then these two items will be plenty of protection. The crown, while powerful, is not worth the far too real risk of stupidity. Walking death is an essential power to take with red fury and eternal hatred, since your vamp needs all the CR he can get.

sulla
11-02-2009, 03:00
Ideas? Thoughts?

Well, the obvious one is; The death of your general dies and every single unit has to take a crumble test every turn for the rest of the game, yet you want to place him on a large target outside the protection of a unit of reraisable meatshields?

If so, defense must be the order of the day. So good magic to heal himself, good armour and a ward save.

Plus plenty of fellbats/wraiths to hunt artillery and maybe an all ghoulkin core to rush up in support.

Personally, I would never field him in any game he has to be the general (sub-3000pt games). It's just too much of a gift for your opponent.

Sifal
11-02-2009, 09:21
just a point to note: dreadknight cannot be taken with a zombie dragon, the vampire must ride the barded nightmare if he takes it. as such you'll want a magical lance for str7 goodness.

Jagosaja
11-02-2009, 10:12
I take a dragon rider often. I give him Dreadlance and Crown of Stupidity, Red Fury and Walking Death. Even if his Dragon gets shot down, the Vampire will most probably survive. No need to be afraid of getting hurt in CC as the Vampire will take enemies down.

Sifal
11-02-2009, 11:03
I take a dragon rider often. I give him Dreadlance and Crown of Stupidity, Red Fury and Walking Death. Even if his Dragon gets shot down, the Vampire will most probably survive. No need to be afraid of getting hurt in CC as the Vampire will take eemies down.

But if the dragon gets killed (and the zombie dragon is cr*p) the vampire no longer benefits from the lance and is a sitting duck and will die more often than not out on his own. a character with 4+ attacks, 4+ ward save and 3 T5 wounds is not that hard to kill in CC or with CR.

Jagosaja
11-02-2009, 11:25
But if the dragon gets killed (and the zombie dragon is cr*p) the vampire no longer benefits from the lance and is a sitting duck and will die more often than not out on his own. a character with 4+ attacks, 4+ ward save and 3 T5 wounds is not that hard to kill in CC or with CR.

True, but if you spare some points in the army you can get Infinite Hatred and make somewhere around 6 kills against infantry alone, and in case of failure you always have Ward save. The whole model is not that vulnerable unless enemy focuses a lot of fire on it, in which case you can deal with him with the rest of your army. I've faced barrage fire from 3 bolt throwers enough for my Vamp to be close to the forest from which he can cast magic and hide. Unless of course you keep your dragon in the open, waiting to be killed, in which case undead army deserves to crumble. Use terrain!

W0lf
11-02-2009, 11:25
Red fury, walking death, infinite hatred
Balefrie spike, Crown of the damned, flayed haulberk.

Thats what id run. I dont see the point in paying 60 pts for auto-hit when you can have infinite hatred and WS 7. Alternativly go for this;

Red fury, Dark acolyte/raise... OR Red fury, master (which ever fits best)
Dreadlance, crown of the damned.

This gives you slightly better magic for less protection.

Both ways id look at making him able to charge and break knight units in the front.
I think 1st build is betetr, balespike is a FLAMING lance (IIRC) which is brutal for killing hydras/GUO etc etc.

Sifal
11-02-2009, 11:43
The whole model is not that vulnerable unless enemy focuses a lot of fire on it, in which case you can deal with him with the rest of your army.

I just think it's risky when the enemy will inevitably do everything they can to hit the general. In many cases i'm sure it does work out for you though. I suppose if you keep infantry as close as possible to the general so he can tuck tail and join them the turn after the dragon dies. Or give him talisman of the lycni so he can get out of trouble asap. Curiosity question: what would the rest of the VC army be to best support the pivotal lord on dragon?

Spirit
11-02-2009, 11:46
I would still say that S5 and regain wounds is better than S7, simply because the dragon's strength of 6 will kill what you need it to.

you dont need to worry about high armour units because you have the flying thing, so you pick the combats. And a flank charge from a dragon with zombies in the front will work just as well regardless of how many wounds you cause.

So yea, blood drinker all the way for me.


Crown of the dammed is tempting, but again, considering your killing power and ability to choose combats, you only need the ward save from shooting, so wristbands would be my first choice now i've thought about it.

Wristbands, flayed hauberk, blood drinker. Change out wristbands for book of arkhan if your feelin' frisky!

W0lf
11-02-2009, 11:49
In my mind dragons shouldnt be in combat for more then one turn. They ether charge and break or help break by supporting an already engaged unit. Thus generating Kills > Helping restore wounds.

Oberon
11-02-2009, 11:50
Flayed hauberk, wristbands, book of arkhan, balefire spike I think was my build in one tourney I went into. I was a backup player, only played in the first round, but it was fun.
I had some serious support for the dragon, to divert opponent's attention as much as possible. When you have a vampire lord riding undead dragon, rank upon rank (ok only 10) of undead heavy cavalry that regenerates, and 2 giant bat-vampire monsters that regenerate, charging you on turn 2, what will you shoot? Sure, the rest of the "army" was 3x10 skeletons and a necromancer scroll caddy, but hey.

Jagosaja
11-02-2009, 12:12
In 2500 pts game, which is somewhat the regular army size where I play, I take Vampire Lord on the Dragon, eight Wraiths, Blood knights (5) with Vampire BSB (two most expensive banners), 100 zombies, 2 small units of Ghouls and a flying vampire hero. With huuuuuge block of zombies (10x10) in the centre, Dragon Lord and Vamp hero on one flank and Wraiths screening Blood Knights on the other, Dragon may not be the sole concern of the enemy. If they focus on the Dragon, which sometimes they do, Wraiths and Blood knights wipe them out.

If I already have Red Fury and want to max out the output, I need my lord to be able to crush high armour saves, and that is why I always go for the lance. I'd go for the spike, but I have too many High Elves around and Dragon Armour does me no favor. So, Dreadlance all the way.

Aunshiva
11-02-2009, 17:52
Sure they'll go after him, but there is a low number of cannons in my local meta game, and few of the others really worry me. With enough woods, I can manage things nicely myself without the worries. I just want to be able to maximize the carnage when he gets in. They ignore the rest of my army at their peril. Bwahaha.

Truthfully though, if I play my army as I normally do, I will steam roll everybody. Time to do something a little more challenging, neh?

Kalec
12-02-2009, 03:30
In my mind dragons shouldnt be in combat for more then one turn. They ether charge and break or help break by supporting an already engaged unit. Thus generating Kills > Helping restore wounds.

Dragons have a nasty tendency to attract lots of shooting and magic, as do vamp lords. Being able to recover some of this will keep your uber-expensive lord of super-killyness alive a whole lot longer, which is kinda important for VC.

Spirit
12-02-2009, 11:57
Dragons have a nasty tendency to attract lots of shooting and magic, as do vamp lords. Being able to recover some of this will keep your uber-expensive lord of super-killyness alive a whole lot longer, which is kinda important for VC.

Especially with toughness 5.

The dragons uber WS and attacks make up for the loss of a lance. And S5 in the side (so no hand weapons and shield) will easily generate 5 kills (with red fury) combined with 3 or 4 from the dragon and walking death, 9 CR vs 2 average? That i would say is enough to win combats.

Also, if dragons are only meant to be in combat for one turn, you dont want to break the enemy on the turn you charge, you want to break them in the enemy turn, so you cannot be shot.

Jagosaja
12-02-2009, 12:55
Also, if dragons are only meant to be in combat for one turn, you dont want to break the enemy on the turn you charge, you want to break them in the enemy turn, so you cannot be shot.

I would really, really appreciate if you could tell me how to accomplish that. Vampire is so killy that he always breaks an opponent on turn one, so either I deny some of his killing potential, which I cannot justify as it does not make him break the opponent on two 2 instead of turn 1, or I charge in such way that I overrun into another unit. Please help.

Spirit
12-02-2009, 17:51
I would really, really appreciate if you could tell me how to accomplish that. Vampire is so killy that he always breaks an opponent on turn one, so either I deny some of his killing potential, which I cannot justify as it does not make him break the opponent on two 2 instead of turn 1, or I charge in such way that I overrun into another unit. Please help.

If he always breaks on one turn then my previous argument of blood drinker vs lance is solved, blood drinker wins.

But ok, he breaks them every turn and you angle yourself into another unit, both work.

Jagosaja
13-02-2009, 07:08
The way I see it Zombie Dragon is weakened considering it's defenses. One wound less and one point less in toughness really makes the difference. In order to compensate that, the beast is more offensive giving it one more attack and better WS. However, as I never considered Dragon to be main killer when you have a Vampire Lord riding it, in order for the Dragon to really pay off you have to make it either brutally offensive or increase the defenses.

To increase the offense the most logical way to go is Infinite Hatred on the rider, making it reroll the misses. If you have any other ideas how to make it even better, but not too expensive, I'd gladly listen to the advice.

The problems come when it comes to defenses. You can save your Dragon from CR by taking Crown of Stupidity, redirecting wounds on Vampire and saving them. Other than that, I fail to see how can it survive heavy missile fire, so the only way to save it is to hide. Again, if you have any other ideas, I would be more than happy to listen.

Spirit
13-02-2009, 14:44
Blood drinker, 3+ ward save from shooting, 2+ save on vampire. Combined with hatred, red fury and walking death.

Shooting wont be much of a problem for one turn, and if your losing combats with that setup, your forgetting to roll your dice.

TAU AIR CASTE
13-02-2009, 17:11
why does the dragon get hatred too?
I know frenzy affects mounts but I though hatred was just the rider?

Sifal
13-02-2009, 17:37
why does the dragon get hatred too?
I know frenzy affects mounts but I though hatred was just the rider?

mounts benefit from hatred and frenzy. hence why DE dragons etc are so tonk.

Jagosaja
13-02-2009, 20:31
why does the dragon get hatred too?
I know frenzy affects mounts but I though hatred was just the rider?

As Sifal previously said. Check BRB, page 79.

TAU AIR CASTE
15-02-2009, 11:41
oh ...... don't know how I missed that duh and thanks