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kikkoman
11-02-2009, 04:51
If so, did they always have ratman ninjas?

Just wondering, as I can't think of any other setting with rats doing ninjitsu.



...
and would it be entirely plausible for mundane animals (say, turtles) exposed to warpsone to mutate and grow into intelligent humanoids?

Mad Makz
11-02-2009, 05:18
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles the comic originates in 1984

Skaven appeared in 1986

TMNT definitely struck first

ruttman15
11-02-2009, 05:39
SKAVEN ARE BASED ON THE TURTLES!?!?!?!?!? OMG LOL SERIOUSLY COOL.
they need a new unit. they could call them "mutated turtle ninjas who are teenaged"
im sure GW wouldnt get sued :)

dodicula
11-02-2009, 05:43
Where's the IP violation outrage? But of-course when Gamezone makes some rat-men that own GW's tepid attempt, they will be ripping off GW.

snurl
11-02-2009, 05:55
I have an old Dragon Magazine from 1979 that contains an ad for "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and other strangeness" which can be found in the new (then) "Gurps" RPG.

Hellebore
11-02-2009, 05:59
Where's the IP violation outrage? But of-course when Gamezone makes some rat-men that own GW's tepid attempt, they will be ripping off GW.

Er? Whether Gamezone makes better miniatures is hardly relevant to whether the Skaven (as defined as the race from Warhammer and all the background therein) are an interesting and well executed fantasy construct.

Hellebore

Ward.
11-02-2009, 10:07
Where's the IP violation outrage? But of-course when Gamezone makes some rat-men that own GW's tepid attempt, they will be ripping off GW.

What IP violation are you talking about?, the skaven where an indirect lift from sources around before teenage mutant ninja turtles.

Unless you think character concepts as vague as a rat with ninja skills can be considered IP.

Sifal
11-02-2009, 10:10
pubescent deformed martial reptiles. (and really they are tortoise not not turtles)

IJW
11-02-2009, 10:41
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles the comic originates in 1984

Skaven appeared in 1986
That's odd, 'cause all my early C47 Chaos Ratmen models have got '©GW 1985' on the tab, and they debuted in the 1985 Citadel Compendium. ;)
Still the year after TMNT, though.


I have an old Dragon Magazine from 1979 that contains an ad for "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and other strangeness" which can be found in the new (then) "Gurps" RPG.
GURPS came out in 1986, so I doubt it...

Bregalad
11-02-2009, 10:41
Bipedal humanoid rats (with weapons and armor) called wererats are a very old concept present even in the very first D&D edition (1974). Common enemies in the lower levels. Also present in the ancient PC game "Bard's Tale" (1985).

Griefbringer
11-02-2009, 10:49
I have an old Dragon Magazine from 1979 that contains an ad for "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and other strangeness" which can be found in the new (then) "Gurps" RPG.

Considering that TMNT (the comic) was first launched in 1984, GURPS first edition was released in 1986, and that "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness" was a separate RPG originally released by Palladium in 1985, you might want to check things out again.

Mind me, ratmen or wererats were hardly a brand new concept in the western culture in the mid-80s. As for ninja rats, they might have featured in Japanese pop culture well before that.

Condottiere
11-02-2009, 11:00
Bipedal humanoid rats (with weapons and armor) called wererats are a very old concept present even in the very first D&D edition (1974). Common enemies in the lower levels. Also present in the ancient PC game "Bard's Tale" (1985).And the themes associated with Skaven were present there as well. Maybe not the Mad Scientist part.

As regards Japan, there's Hengeyokai that transform into rats. Actually, rats that transform into humans.

Shamfrit
11-02-2009, 11:32
Master Splinter is Kung Fu...

Shame on you!

Orcboy_Phil
11-02-2009, 11:48
In Fritz Leibers stories there are also sentient rats led by a council of thirteen as well I believe.

Nephilim of Sin
11-02-2009, 12:03
If so, did they always have ratman ninjas?

Just wondering, as I can't think of any other setting with rats doing ninjitsu.

You mean, as opposed to Elves having chariots pulled by White Lions? :wtf:

I can't think of any other setting that has all of these elements, plus greenskins (Warcraft does not count), either. While Cold Ones may be a D&D rip-off, ratmen are not. End of story.

Remember, in TMNT there was one rat-man who used to be a human ninja, and that is it. There are no other rats. How long until Teh Waste Train Cometh?

mweaver
11-02-2009, 12:46
Fritz Leiber is probably the main influence, and D&D of course. But worth noting that Leiber was one of the writers that early D&D drew from heavily.

Condottiere
11-02-2009, 12:59
Skaven are in no way unique or original.

Quetzl
11-02-2009, 13:16
If so, did they always have ratman ninjas?

Just wondering, as I can't think of any other setting with rats doing ninjitsu.



...
and would it be entirely plausible for mundane animals (say, turtles) exposed to warpsone to mutate and grow into intelligent humanoids?

You've opened my eyes! Skaven are a rip off :eek:

Tanavar
11-02-2009, 13:54
GW could probably get away with a paroday as The TMNT were originally intended as a parody themselves. But I don't think they really fit in with the skaven fluff tbh :P

Bregalad
11-02-2009, 14:48
Skaven are in no way unique or original.
I wouldn't go so far.
Skaven use common ideas from several Fantasy sources, add some nice original ideas (warp stones, plague monks, skryre science, eshin, moulder) to create something new and nice. In their current form, they are one of the most original Warhammer concepts IMHO, like wardancers and troll slayers.

ZeroTwentythree
11-02-2009, 15:08
Someone else summed it up elsewhere, but basically Fritz Lieber had a race of mutant ratmen who lived in the sewers, plotted to overthrow the humans above, were lead by a council of 13 and used intrigue, assassination and lightning weapons.

Skaven... totally original. ;)

Still, Skaven remain my favorite WFB race.

I don't see the TMNT thing as anything but coincidental, though.

dunagrad
11-02-2009, 16:11
All that other stuff aside, let's be honest, Master Splinter taught the Skaven everything they know.

Zoolander
11-02-2009, 17:42
Well, the ratman mythology has been around for much longer than TMNT. They can be found in ancient Japanese fairy tales, for example. Most Japanese-based RPGs (Legend of the Five Rings, for example) have something very similar to the race in their games.

Urgat
11-02-2009, 18:09
Well, the ratman mythology has been around for much longer than TMNT. They can be found in ancient Japanese fairy tales, for example. Most Japanese-based RPGs (Legend of the Five Rings, for example) have something very similar to the race in their games.

Well, I may be wrong, but I'd assume something which name starts with "ninja" draws at least some influence from japanese stuff anyway :)

Zoolander
11-02-2009, 18:14
Well, I may be wrong, but I'd assume something which name starts with "ninja" draws at least some influence from japanese stuff anyway :)

LOL Good point. But not necessarily true! They'll put ninja in front of anything! Including turtles! :cool:

Feefait
11-02-2009, 19:41
not to cause too much of a flame war, but claiming GW has "lifted" material is hardly a new thought. Most of what they have are imitations of other games and systems. soem of their truly original stuff (fimir, zoats) have been completely written off for more established, accepted ideas and looks. heck, michael moorcock wrote the histroy of the HE (melnibone) way before GW did, and even had the 8 pointed star thing as his chaos motif. and can anyone doubt that elrics god is slaanesh?

Lord Dan
11-02-2009, 19:54
So what I'm gathering here is that there are never original ideas. Everyone has stolen everything from everyone else.

Griefbringer
11-02-2009, 20:43
Remember, in TMNT there was one rat-man who used to be a human ninja, and that is it. There are no other rats. How long until Teh Waste Train Cometh?

To my knowledge, Splinter was originally a rat, who got mutated by the same chemical that affected the turtles. He had been previously owned by some sort of martial arts master, who met a tragic death, and Splinter had learned the skills observing his master.


So what I'm gathering here is that there are never original ideas. Everyone has stolen everything from everyone else.

Ancient Sumerians might have had some original ideas. Or at least we do not know whom they stole them from.

O&G'sRule
11-02-2009, 21:02
SKAVEN ARE BASED ON THE TURTLES!?!?!?!?!? OMG LOL SERIOUSLY COOL.
they need a new unit. they could call them "mutated turtle ninjas who are teenaged"
im sure GW wouldnt get sued :)

Have you seen the old metal hormagaunts? they got away with those blatant alien rip offs

Foegnasher
11-02-2009, 21:26
one improtant distinction i think, is that splinter was a man, who became a rat.

the skaven are rats and are from rats, and know nothing of mankind, other than apeing thier technology.

Condottiere
11-02-2009, 21:42
So what I'm gathering here is that there are never original ideas. Everyone has stolen everything from everyone else.Even Tolkien.

dodicula
11-02-2009, 21:44
So what I'm gathering here is that there are never original ideas. Everyone has stolen everything from everyone else.

In the realm of literature and fantasy...Yes exactly,

Just that some people/companies whine and complain about it more than others.

Welf VIII.
11-02-2009, 21:44
To add another point to the debate, GW have produced a mutant turtle man in the 80s within their beastmen range (check out #16):
http://www.solegends.com/citcat88/0207rocbeast.jpg
Some of you may find it interesting, that their first ever beastmen were produced as Broos for Runequest before they produced their first slotta miniatures.

Bregalad
11-02-2009, 21:50
Which Fritz Leiber book exactly features that rat empire with the council of the 13?
I am curious now.

Lugburz
11-02-2009, 21:59
one improtant distinction i think, is that splinter was a man, who became a rat.

the skaven are rats and are from rats, and know nothing of mankind, other than apeing thier technology.

In the original comic (and maybe the movies?) he was actually a pet rat, and learned kung fu by watching his master xD

Foegnasher
11-02-2009, 22:03
In the original comic (and maybe the movies?) he was actually a pet rat, and learned kung fu by watching his master xD


i thought that was backward. the movies said he was a pet rat, the original comics said he was human.

but i've been wrong before.

zak
11-02-2009, 22:07
From what I remember of the cartoon series it was the other way round, where Splinter was a man transformed into a rat/man!!??

All of GW's race's are to some extent copies of others work and heavily influenced by others. Some designers will openly admit where these influences come from.

Condottiere
11-02-2009, 22:20
In the comic, it's a mutated rat; in the cartoon, it was changed to a transformed man.

sulla
12-02-2009, 03:53
Also present in the ancient PC game "Bard's Tale" (1985).

Had that game... on my little brother's Amstrad CPC if I'm not mistaken. T'was a good game.

darkace77450
12-02-2009, 04:35
Which Fritz Leiber book exactly features that rat empire with the council of the 13?
I am curious now.

The Swords of Lankhmar; needless to say that GW would have a really hard time claiming the IP rights to a group of rats led by a council of 13.

mweaver
12-02-2009, 04:41
Bregalad, the Fritz Leiber Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser volume you are looking for is "The Swords of Lankhmar" (the fifth in the series).

mweaver
12-02-2009, 04:42
Hey, darkace's post wasn't there a minute ago when I went to rummage on my bookshelf!

Griefbringer
12-02-2009, 11:48
That is what they call a "ninja edit".

Of course, the fans of the cartoon series will want to call it as "hero edit" instead...

Urgat
12-02-2009, 12:16
LOL Good point. But not necessarily true! They'll put ninja in front of anything! Including turtles! :cool:

Well, one could argue that the turtles date back from way before the current japanese culture frenzy.

IJW
12-02-2009, 13:22
Or even that TMNT (or TMHT depending on your country of origin) helped start it off...

FaHeMan89
12-02-2009, 19:01
GW never infringes copyrights... I mean, think of it. They're always comming up with such original names and concepts, like in the new lizardmen book: A Stegadon by the name of Zlagg, a teradon by the name of Zwup, and a Carnasaur by the name of Grimloq? (insert sarcasm here)

ZeroTwentythree
12-02-2009, 19:17
not to cause too much of a flame war, but claiming GW has "lifted" material is hardly a new thought./QUOTE]

Nor is this a new discussion at Warseer. ;)



[QUOTE=Feefait;3282745]soem of their truly original stuff (fimir, zoats)



Truely original Fimir?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians_in_popular_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

:p

Condottiere
12-02-2009, 19:44
There is nothing new under the Sun.

darkace77450
12-02-2009, 19:55
There is nothing new under the Sun.

What about above the sun?

Griefbringer
12-02-2009, 20:17
Even the sun itself might not be that unique invention, there were probably a good lot of other stars in the universe before our good old sun had formed up.

Luckily, there were no lawyers out back then, because they would have probably tried to sue the sun for something...

ZeroTwentythree
12-02-2009, 20:37
I heard GW is planning on releasing a new plastic sun.* I bet they try to claim Sol is a rip off of their IP. :angel:



* Comes with an extra sprue of spikes and skullz.

decker_cky
12-02-2009, 21:03
I thought GW invented the concept of rats, just God decided to give them proportioned hands and feet so as to throw off the GW lawyers.

Sir Charles
12-02-2009, 21:31
You mean, as opposed to Elves having chariots pulled by White Lions? :wtf:

I can't think of any other setting that has all of these elements, plus greenskins (Warcraft does not count), either. While Cold Ones may be a D&D rip-off, ratmen are not. End of story.

Remember, in TMNT there was one rat-man who used to be a human ninja, and that is it. There are no other rats. How long until Teh Waste Train Cometh?That was just in the eighties cartoon, in the original comic, movies, and latter cartoons splinter was always a rat.

Edit: Whoa, this is late didn't realize the thread was out this far when I responded.

Condottiere
12-02-2009, 21:35
Threads take suprising turns, sometimes; besides, you don't mess with adolescent mutated turtles trained by a ninja master, even if you happen to be a mutated rodent.

Sir Charles
12-02-2009, 21:38
Threads take suprising turns, sometimes; besides, you don't mess with adolescent mutated turtles trained by a ninja master, even if you happen to be a mutated rodent.Oh, I don't know about that I seem to remember that when it came down to it Splinter could take any of the turtles without any trouble.

darkace77450
12-02-2009, 21:43
I heard GW is planning on releasing a new plastic sun.* I bet they try to claim Sol is a rip off of their IP. :angel:



* Comes with an extra sprue of spikes and skullz.

lol because, as GW will have us believe, there can never be too many skulls on a toy soldier.

Condottiere
13-02-2009, 00:34
Oh, I don't know about that I seem to remember that when it came down to it Splinter could take any of the turtles without any trouble.Maybe one on one, but not as a team.

dodicula
13-02-2009, 07:53
GW never infringes copyrights... I mean, think of it. They're always comming up with such original names and concepts, like in the new lizardmen book: A Stegadon by the name of Zlagg, a teradon by the name of Zwup, and a Carnasaur by the name of Grimloq? (insert sarcasm here)

I guess GW would defend themselves by saying theres more to those names than meets the eye

Condottiere
13-02-2009, 10:59
It might work if they say it's a parody.

Griefbringer
13-02-2009, 13:16
I heard GW is planning on releasing a new plastic sun.* I bet they try to claim Sol is a rip off of their IP. :angel:

* Comes with an extra sprue of spikes and skullz.

Would this product line be known as "Evil Sunz"? :evilgrin:

Would make for good scenery for BFG games, depending on the size.

Orcboy_Phil
13-02-2009, 15:10
It might work if they say it's a parody.

Its not a parody thougth. Its a homage.

loveless
13-02-2009, 15:49
I guess GW would defend themselves by saying theres more to those names than meets the eye

Oh, that is just awful :p

Condottiere
13-02-2009, 15:51
Its not a parody thougth. Its a homage.That's the code word for ripoff.

StarFyreXXX
13-02-2009, 17:56
i won't say slayers are an oriignal concept. D&D has had battleragers since the 80s...which are what the slayers are based on...

when did the slayers first appear?

Sanjay

Griefbringer
13-02-2009, 18:12
Slayers are at least featured in the 1st edition WFRP, released in 1986 or so. Not sure if that was their first appearance or not.

Nerhesi
13-02-2009, 18:20
Everything ripped off Egypt.

IJW
13-02-2009, 20:39
i won't say slayers are an oriignal concept. D&D has had battleragers since the 80s...which are what the slayers are based on...
Which are, in turn, based on Viking berserkers/baresarks plus Cuchelain from Irish mythology... ;)

Condottiere
14-02-2009, 01:03
A lot is based on human archetypes, which mythology and folklore is full of.

Griefbringer
14-02-2009, 12:08
For a study of mythological archetypes, might be worth checking the book "The hero with a thousand faces" from Joseph Campbell.

Kyte
14-02-2009, 14:49
There sure are some similarities. Warp Stone is essentially green glowing rocks that mutates stuff. Mutagen is green glowing slime that does the same...

Thanks

- Kyte

Griefbringer
14-02-2009, 15:59
Natural warp stone is not green glowy stuff, but absolutely black. The refined warp stone that the Skaven use is glowing green and less mutating than the raw stuff. Not sure if these were specified anywhere before the Skaven army book around 1994. There is probably some room for allegories with radioactive fallout.

As for the TMNT, the early comics were B&W - when was the color of the oozt stuff first specified.

In any case, I do not think that either sinister green glowing rocks or green glowing slime would be very original.

Znail
14-02-2009, 19:24
I think it was simply called Green Ooze in the comic, althou I would have to check to be sure. Its interesting to see that there are more similarities then just the ninja rat thing. Althou its hardly any problem as far as IP goes as its more of a homage then violation. But there is a reason that GW cant realy do anything to any company who wants to make models very similar to theirs as apart from some names so are just about everything originating from something else. The most blatant rippoff I think would be the original Bloodthirster who looked exactly like a Balrog as illustrated in Lord of the Rings.

Griefbringer
14-02-2009, 20:18
"The most blatant rippoff I think would be the original Bloodthirster who looked exactly like a Balrog as illustrated in Lord of the Rings."

Of course, the original LotR does not have illustration of Balrog (or much of anything else), though many artists have done their own versions since then. There is not very detailed description of the Balrog in the book - beyond being big, roughly human shaped, winged, flaming and brandishing sword and whip. Mind me, the Bloodthirster had an axe.

However, those with access to WHFB 3rd edition might want to look at page 266 for description and picture of greater demon Baalrukh and page 154 for illustration entitled "Baalrukh attack".

Ward.
15-02-2009, 08:26
winged

Actually, balrogs don't have wings ;)

IJW
15-02-2009, 09:53
However, those with access to WHFB 3rd edition might want to look at page 266 for description and picture of greater demon Baalrukh and page 154 for illustration entitled "Baalrukh attack".
Or Citadel's 'Balgorg (http://solegends.com/citwd/wd97balgorg.htm)' from 1988. :rolleyes:

Going back even further (1982), their 'Demon with Sword and Whip (http://www.solegends.com/raukas/raukasc31.htm)'.

P.S. Ignore the text on that second page, the Balgorg was a new sculpt, not the same one re-released...

EDIT - the illustration on p154 is specifically an illustration of a Balrog, because it's the cover art for the old Encounter at Khazad-Dum box set from GW's previous licensed LotR range.

Griefbringer
15-02-2009, 10:21
Actually, balrogs don't have wings ;)

I guess this depends on how you interpret the following sentence on the book:

"… suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall…"



EDIT - the illustration on p154 is specifically an illustration of a Balrog, because it's the cover art for the old Encounter at Khazad-Dum box set from GW's previous licensed LotR range.

Thanks for the info, SoL does not contain further info on that set, though it lists various Citadel LotR products:

http://solegends.com/citlotr/index.htm

Actually, I have got a few figures from that range - Merry, Boromir and Saruman I think.

Ward.
15-02-2009, 10:30
I guess this depends on how you interpret the following sentences on the book:

"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."

"… suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall…"



Fixed for controversy :D

Bregalad
15-02-2009, 11:03
What again was the topic?

Orcboy_Phil
15-02-2009, 12:56
Games Workshop ripping off other liscenses I believe.

Condottiere
15-02-2009, 13:54
Are Balrogs patented or copyrighted?

Mr_Rose
15-02-2009, 14:48
Are Balrogs patented or copyrighted?
Neither. New Line Cinema, however, owns and administers the trademarked images of the Balrog seen in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring film and associated media.

Znail
15-02-2009, 14:54
"The most blatant rippoff I think would be the original Bloodthirster who looked exactly like a Balrog as illustrated in Lord of the Rings."

Of course, the original LotR does not have illustration of Balrog (or much of anything else), though many artists have done their own versions since then. There is not very detailed description of the Balrog in the book - beyond being big, roughly human shaped, winged, flaming and brandishing sword and whip. Mind me, the Bloodthirster had an axe.

However, those with access to WHFB 3rd edition might want to look at page 266 for description and picture of greater demon Baalrukh and page 154 for illustration entitled "Baalrukh attack".

There were illustrations in later releases and official books and they have the exact same look (well, the sword vs axe may differ). But its not like it hard to catch the inspiration as you mention. But there is so much rips from LotR anyway that it hardly matters. I dont think it bothered Tolkien thou so anything done when he was still around wouldnt matter.

On the other hand so are GW the biggest losers ever on rip in the other direction. This is rather second hand info from memory so it may be a bit off or even untrue! But as far as I know so was Warcraft originaly ment to be Warhammer the combuter game (or similar name) but GW pulled the plugg as they didnt think it would be a hit. But Blizzard then removed the most obvious Warhammer references and released it themselves. I think everyone can agree that this was probobly one of the biggest mistakes ever by GW!

dragonstrike
15-02-2009, 15:01
Now if they want to make Skaven more like TMNT they should give them a human leader. They could call it the Rat King.

Ward.
15-02-2009, 15:03
I think everyone can agree that this was probably one of the biggest mistakes ever by GW!

Sort of, last I heard GW sued and had it settled out of court.

Can never find the source for it when it comes up in discussions though :o

Condottiere
15-02-2009, 15:08
Warcraft is rather obvious; and yes, that was a pretty stupid decision, merchandising alone would have been worth it, not to mention the royalties.

Griefbringer
15-02-2009, 17:06
Speaking of Balrogs, Bloodthirsters and other big wicked things: AFAIK fiery demons/devils with bestial heads and feet, wings and various spanky/pointy implements have been a part of European art since the medieval times.

OTOH Tolkien Enterprises probably claims a trademark (registered or not) to the specific term Balrog.

maze ironheart
15-02-2009, 18:49
Would be great to hear the theme tune to the ninja skaven.

Lord Dan
15-02-2009, 19:29
They're the worlds most fearsome fighting team,
(Not-so-teenage mutant ninja skaven)
Vermin with katanas,
Ninja skaven!

Griefbringer
15-02-2009, 19:55
[To the melody of Yellow Submarine]

In the town where I was born,
Lived a rat who went to east,
And he told us of his life,
In the land of ninja spies.

So we travelled faraway,
Till we found the land Cathay,
And we lived beneath the towns,
In our ninja vaults!

We are the stealthy ninja skaven,
Ninja skaven, ninja skaven.
We are the stealthy ninja skaven,
Ninja skaven, ninja skaven.

And our spies are all over,
Many more of them in every tower,
And the horde begins to slay.

(shurikens fly)

We are the stealthy ninja skaven,
Ninja skaven, ninja skaven.
We are the stealthy ninja skaven,
Ninja skaven, ninja skaven.

(Full speed ahead, clan Eshin, full speed ahead!
Full speed over here, chief!
Gutter runners! Gutter runners!
Assassins, fire!
Chieftain! Chieftain!)

As we live a life of violence
Every one of us has all we need, (has all we need)
Shurikens, and katana green,(shurikens, and katana green)
in our faraway (in our faraway) Cathay. (cathay) ( Hahaha! )

We are the stealthy ninja skaven,
Ninja skaven, ninja skaven.
We are the stealthy ninja skaven,
Ninja skaven, ninja skaven.

(fading)

We are the stealthy ninja skaven,
Ninja skaven, ninja skaven.
We are the stealthy ninja skaven,
Ninja skaven, ninja skaven.

Condottiere
15-02-2009, 20:09
Skaven Boy Band Group. Backstreet Gutter Runners?

Harry
15-02-2009, 20:09
Enough now. :D


Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles the comic originates in 1984

Skaven appeared in 1986

TMNT definitely struck first
No.

Skaven pre date TMNT. Skaven were first released in 1984 ... The year of the Rat. Yes. Go check.

However Jes designed them AND much of their background two years before this in 1982

I don't think turtles were around then and I am sure if they were they had not come to Mr Goodwins attention.

Condottiere
15-02-2009, 20:37
TMNT May 1984.

Mad Makz
16-02-2009, 01:26
Enough now. :D


No.

Skaven pre date TMNT. Skaven were first released in 1984 ... The year of the Rat. Yes. Go check.

However Jes designed them AND much of their background two years before this in 1982

I don't think turtles were around then and I am sure if they were they had not come to Mr Goodwins attention.

That's what I get for trusting Wikipedia as a source. ;)

However, was Clan Eshin a major part of the background from the outset? As TMNT may very well have informed Clan Eshin a bit?

Lord Dan
16-02-2009, 01:43
That's what I get for trusting Wikipedia as a source.

That's why Harry is our source.

Harry
16-02-2009, 05:10
Thanks for that Lord Dan. :D


However, was Clan Eshin a major part of the background from the outset? As TMNT may very well have informed Clan Eshin a bit?

Yes they were. The major clans (as we know them today) were all in Jes's original writing and these were later written up and developed by Rick Priestley for the introduction of the race in 1984 and their inclusion in Warhammer fantasy Role Play 1986.

Two of Jes's original skaven sculpts look very Clan Eshin. One was a Night Runner. The other an assassin. Both of these were designed and released pre TNMT

thechosenone
16-02-2009, 05:39
I poked through most of the thread and didn't see any mention of the secret of Nihm. It was an animated movie in 82 and a book in the early 70's. The animated movie has some very Skryre in appearance. There's all sorts of backstabery and wizardy.

Just a thought.

Foegnasher
16-02-2009, 05:51
I poked through most of the thread and didn't see any mention of the secret of Nihm. It was an animated movie in 82 and a book in the early 70's. The animated movie has some very Skryre in appearance. There's all sorts of backstabery and wizardy.

Just a thought.

nicodemous was the first grey seer.

Jenner was my kind of back stabbin' rat though, a proper skaven through and through.

edit: *poof* avatar shapeshift technique!

i had forgotten about him, cunning devil.

IJW
16-02-2009, 11:42
Skaven pre date TMNT. Skaven were first released in 1984 ... The year of the Rat. Yes. Go check
Yes, I went and checked... ;)
How does that tally up with the original range all having '©GW 1985' on the tab?

Just curious, because 1984 would make them pre-slotta models and there are no pre-slotta Skaven that I'm aware of, just the Fiend Factory Were-rat from 1982.

Orcboy_Phil
16-02-2009, 11:58
Skaven were released sveral months before there actual warhammer release as a blood bowl team in a white dwarf. This might have dated back to 1984 with the actual Skaven models appearing in the Spring 1985 Citadel Journal. On another note TMNT was a small underground comic book. Is it that likely that GW even knew of its existance before the TV show?

Harry
16-02-2009, 12:07
Not sure do they all have 1985 written on the tab? I can't tell most of mine are all glued in their bases. :D I have few not glued in that have 1987 written on them and yet we know they predate that because there are pictures of them in various publications which predate this. I am affraid I do dot understand the history of stamps on tabs as well as I should :D

I mispoke when I typed 'released in 1984'. perhaps I should have said he finished sculpting them in 1984. I don't think they were released until 1985 - 1986. They were in one of the citadel journals. (95?) I think with Jes doing the introduction/writting himself?

EDIT : Skaven Ninja. :D

Condottiere
16-02-2009, 12:34
Let's be fair, it was the early 1980s, and a lot of those ideas were floating around.

The general public started becoming aware of the Japanese popular culture, Ninjas had already sprung up in the 1970s, probably following the success of Bruce Lee's kungfu movies; classic anime shows became more widespread; D&D started penetrating high schools and colleges.

Rats tend to be unseen, ninjas tend to be unseen.

Harry
16-02-2009, 12:37
... and some folks were smoking a fair bit of weed at the time too. :D

Sleazy
16-02-2009, 12:38
GW never infringes copyrights... I mean, think of it. They're always comming up with such original names and concepts, like in the new lizardmen book: A Stegadon by the name of Zlagg, a teradon by the name of Zwup, and a Carnasaur by the name of Grimloq? (insert sarcasm here)

I'm aware of the Grimlock/Grimloq rip off (and his rider krok-gar= Wreck-gar?) but please be joking about Zlag and Zwup...

please?

IJW
16-02-2009, 13:11
Not sure do they all have 1985 written on the tab?
Yep.


I have few not glued in that have 1987 written on them and yet we know they predate that because there are pictures of them in various publications which predate this.
The first ones have 1985 on the tab, there was a second wave? in the 1986 Journal which also have 1985 on the tab . All of these ones say 'RATMEN' on the front of the tab.
Another bunch including the Plague Censor Bearers, Globadiers, Command Group, second WFT team etc. were released in 1987 and have 'SKAVEN' on the front of the tab and 1987 on the reverse.


I mispoke when I typed 'released in 1984'. perhaps I should have said he finished sculpting them in 1984. I don't think they were released until 1985 - 1986. They were in one of the citadel journals. (95?) I think with Jes doing the introduction/writting himself?
It was in the Spring 1986 Journal, as far as I can tell.
http://solegends.com/citjour86a/cj86ap21c47skaven-01.htm

JG Skaven are one of the ranges I specialise in (both for my collection and for my eBay store), so I know a little bit too much about the different tab texts... :D

None of the above stops the concept work and sculpts from having been finished in 1984, though.

Harry
16-02-2009, 13:30
You need to get out more. I thought I was a nerd. :D

Griefbringer
16-02-2009, 15:29
On another note TMNT was a small underground comic book. Is it that likely that GW even knew of its existance before the TV show?

Remember that back in the 1980's GW stores sold a lot of RPG and other gaming material from other manufacturers in their retail stores, and thus might have also stocked there a copy of Palladium's TMNT role-playing game released in 1985. That said, how many retail stores did GW have back then?