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GamesmasterZ
05-12-2005, 00:03
It's a simple, simple question.

Why have the submissions and armies painted for WD(Battle Reports and just...articles...) gone down? I mean, it's just...uninspiring. Take a look at that 'A Tale of Good and Evil' thing they did for LOTR...what the? It made me want to -stop- painting LOTR things. In short, it was horrible.

I just don't know anymore. It seems like the quality has gone down. Is it just me?

blitz589
05-12-2005, 00:20
I might just be LOTR, 40k is still looks good.

big squig
05-12-2005, 02:41
I agree. When LotR first came out you saw nothing but amazing studio painting and modelling. It was as if someone said at GW "Lets do this game right from the go, no slapped together rules, artwork, or paintjobs."

But now, it seems like noone is working on LotR cept Matt Ward (yuck). Is he the oen doing all the bad paintjobs? Does he suck at rules design AND modelling!?!! What happened to the A+ studio appearance of LotR? Its even invaded the new rule book!!!

McCragge
05-12-2005, 09:27
This has been going on for awhile (damn near since the release of 3rd edition) or at least that is when I noticed it. But only in the White Dwarfs. I think they did this because people who wanted to play the game but weren't very artistic were getting discourage trying to paint to 'Eavy Metal standards.

McCragge

Baggers
05-12-2005, 13:19
there are to many no eavy metal team models in White dwarf nowadays, thats your reason.

Jedi152
05-12-2005, 13:27
I might just be LOTR, 40k is still looks good.
Eh? Have you seen some of the BT forces in WD312?

Baggers
05-12-2005, 18:43
Eh? Have you seen some of the BT forces in WD312?

Have you seen some of the 40k models without paint, there are far to many Marine variants, and apart from the carnifex and hive tyrant very few models that have been good this year.

Then there are the rules.

Chuffy
05-12-2005, 19:02
Two names:

Nigel Stillman and Adrian Wood.

Bad paintjobs aren't just a recent thing. ;)

Cpt. Drill
05-12-2005, 19:52
Adrian Wood.

Adrian wood does some really nice pieces of work! Like his old orks for example looked really good... but sometimes he has to knock out a unit for an article.. such as the Chaos orks.... or as we like to call them "Oh Shi....!"

Chuffy
05-12-2005, 20:01
Adrian wood does some really nice pieces of work! Like his old orks for example looked really good... but sometimes he has to knock out a unit for an article.. such as the Chaos orks.... or as we like to call them "Oh Shi....!"

They're okay, but have a look at his LOTR stuff.*

* D:

Cpt. Drill
05-12-2005, 20:04
Can you paint better?

"this week i painted teeth on a warmaster stand...TEETH!"

yeah pfft!

also at the end of the day its only LotR

Chuffy
05-12-2005, 20:07
Can you paint better?

"this week i painted teeth on a warmaster stand...TEETH!"


My stuff isn't going in WD.

And yeah, I painted teeth on those orcs, so what!? HUH!? HUH!? THEY HAVE BIG TEETH OKAY.


also at the end of the day its only LotR

*Big Squig bait*

Cpt. Drill
05-12-2005, 20:11
My stuff is going in WD


ahem... explain.... the quotations never lie....


I apologise about the LotR dig... with LotR going out the window as 40k and warhammer take over again GW probobly isnt pushing LotR anymore... explaining the painting lameness


GARGLE-FRAGLE
dude that just isnt nessesary...:confused:

big squig
06-12-2005, 05:22
*Big Squig bait*

Must...resist...biting...:evilgrin:


I apologise about the LotR dig... with LotR going out the window as 40k and warhammer take over again GW probobly isnt pushing LotR anymore... explaining the painting lameness

This on the other hand needs a reply. What work of fiction is this? What branch of GW is dropping LotR? GW UK, US, AUS...Bizzaro? And when did 40k and WFB take over....seems like all three have been pretty even in both sales and coverage. You do know that there are four more campaign books and three new armies on the way...:confused:

WarbossKurgan
06-12-2005, 09:05
I really like seeing real gamer's armies, so I'm not bothered by the lack of 'Eavy Metal work (I actually get bored of seeing the same frikkin' 'EM Orks get rolled out every time they feature in a Bat Rep).

But having said that, I still want to see good quality gamer's armies! I can see rubbish ones every day!

Persephone
06-12-2005, 20:11
The quality has gone down tremendously. I think the golden age was definitely when Jes Goodwin's space wolves and Eldar aspect warriors were out, to set a time frame, I don't remember exactly what was out in Fantasy at the time.

They used to only print amazing studio stuff in articles and would feature a gamer's amazing paintjobs every once in awhile.

Now articles are filled with total crap paintjobs and even on the inside covers where there is supposed to be good stuff, if you look closely, a lot of the paintjobs are garbage.

The studio quality has definitely gone down, too. Like most of the paintjobs are clean, but it's not the same level of highlighting, blending and artistry they had back in the day. It's worse when they show closeup bubbles and you can see how horrible and sloppy things look. Maybe they just are trying to churn out too much stuff or have less experienced painters.

However, the Golden Daemon level of painting has definitely increased or become more creative, innovative and daring. It's just that the magazine is just filled with a lot of ugly paintjobs or rushed ones.

truthsayer
06-12-2005, 23:45
It seems to me like the whole overall level of care has gone from GW. I went to Warhammer world a few weeks back and decided to look in the museum, what i saw shocked me to the core!!!... alright maybe not that much. All of the miniatures were caked in dust!! and thats inside the dust cabinets! Surely someone up there can lift a duster...

the paint jobs on the models were quite good!.. well the ones i could see anyhow..

Mad Makz
06-12-2005, 23:58
Well showing gamers models is a good thing, but you also need to balance it out with showing 'eavy metal armies etc.

Some of those articles are done on very tight timeframes, and obviously the quality of work suffers because of it. Most people don't have a one month window (three months out from the actual release of the white dwarf) in which to complete a unit or two, (let alone a whole army) irrespective of their regular commitments (most articles are written as activities above and beyond these peoples day jobs, even if they work for GW their time for actual hobbying is going to be as or more limited than your average adult gamer's time) so it's little wonder that the inhouse hobby articles are generally on the lower end of the spectrum.

I DO really like it when the feature great armies from gamers, there was an amazing Goblin army a while back with a black and white checkerboard colour scheme that was just awesome. However, finding such players and their armies, and arranging time to photograph them professionally, it's a pretty resource intensive activity and also you're unlikely to find such an army that's relevant to recent releases, which ultimately is a lot of what White Dwarf is about.

marv335
07-12-2005, 01:22
in the past all the armies in the battle reports were the studio armies painted by the 'eavy metal team. battle reportswere conducted with whatever was in the cabinet. now battle reports are conducted with the players own armies. not all the players are 'eavy metal standard players.

Chuffy
07-12-2005, 07:37
in the past all the armies in the battle reports were the studio armies painted by the 'eavy metal team. battle reportswere conducted with whatever was in the cabinet. now battle reports are conducted with the players own armies. not all the players are 'eavy metal standard players.

Wow really I never knew that!

Darkseer
07-12-2005, 08:49
The Black Templars scheme examples were horrible!
I wretched when i saw them

Crube
07-12-2005, 09:00
This has happened before. Some time ago, when they wanted to get more youngsters involved in the GW hobby, they stopped the Eavy Metal pages. The reason given was that seeing such superbly painted minis discouraged people from starting the hobby (:wtf:)

I think after this, there was a good balance stuck between Eavy Metal painted and hobby painted, however this appears to be going too far down the hobby paintede route atthe moment (thinks of green gnoblar army and shudders)

I think its a good idea to showcase some hobby painted stuff. to show those less expereinced that its ok if your models dont look perfect, but atthe same time there should be pages of Eavy Metal stuff (both in specific painting articles and in battle Reps) for the older (or more talented) to aspire to.

Cpt. Drill
07-12-2005, 20:17
This on the other hand needs a reply. What work of fiction is this? What branch of GW is dropping LotR? GW UK, US, AUS...Bizzaro? And when did 40k and WFB take over....seems like all three have been pretty even in both sales and coverage. You do know that there are four more campaign books and three new armies on the way...:confused:

well I hope you know that after <undisclosed time> the LotR licence will run out and gw will have to stop selling all models... also from last year there has been a large drop in the sales of LotR with warhammer 40,000 skyrocketing as ever and regular warhammer going as well as ever...

Also when the last LotR film the animated one came out GW made models of the fellowship! (I still have my original bill the pony) and then the licence ran out and they couldnt sell them again!

Cpt. Drill
07-12-2005, 20:20
I really like seeing real gamer's armies, so I'm not bothered by the lack of 'Eavy Metal work (I actually get bored of seeing the same frikkin' 'EM Orks get rolled out every time they feature in a Bat Rep).

But having said that, I still want to see good quality gamer's armies! I can see rubbish ones every day!

I agree... also you know that when people use their own armies the battle reports arnt rigged...

Quetzl
07-12-2005, 22:01
I reacon it could just be done to inspiration, I mean when the GW team were producing their minis. New Line, Peter Jackson etc were still topping of the films, this would have been kind of excitable as they were painting as yet unseen stuff and designing as yet unseen stuff. I mean if I had just seen a movie only a handful of people had seen and I had to model and paint a miniature to take hold of Aragorn... I would be completely into it!!!!

I think that because all of the films have fizzled from everyones memory and the anticipation has gone, that special aura has fizzled away along side the movies. So I don't think its not that they can't paint like they used to its just a case of being bothered to paint it.

ScouserInExile
08-12-2005, 14:28
I'm sure I remember reading / hearing somewhere that they were deliberately downgrading the quality of the painting on their figures so the end results looked more acheiveable to your average punter, thus inspiring them to give it a go themselves

Morph
08-12-2005, 15:42
I'm sure I remember reading / hearing somewhere that they were deliberately downgrading the quality of the painting on their figures so the end results looked more acheiveable to your average punter, thus inspiring them to give it a go themselves

I feel more inspired by brilliantly painted models, since then I have something to aspire to. I suppose it depends on the person, either you're going to think 'I want to be that good, I'll try harder' or it'll be 'I'll never be that good, I'll give up.'

It's nice to see 'real' people's armies, but still I miss gazing at the pretty models. They should show more of the Golden Daemon winners as well.

Chuffy
08-12-2005, 17:28
I feel more inspired by brilliantly painted models, since then I have something to aspire to. I suppose it depends on the person, either you're going to think 'I want to be that good, I'll try harder' or it'll be 'I'll never be that good, I'll give up.'

It's nice to see 'real' people's armies, but still I miss gazing at the pretty models. They should show more of the Golden Daemon winners as well.

Also you don't want to spend 4 to see horribly painted armies done by members of WD AND the Studio.

The most annoying thing about that is the fact that alot of these guys have been playing since about 1990 or earlier and their painting is god awful! You've had like 15+ years to do become good! Why aren't you?

Persephone
08-12-2005, 20:22
I agree, like you don't have to be talented or brilliant but if you have 15 years, you can at least be a technical painter and get things in the lines and do decent highlights and washes.

What is interesting is that you are now seeing amazing paintjobs for these newer companies that are coming out. Dark age and Infinity comes to mind.

Minister
12-12-2005, 08:32
Rackam's sales would likley not be half as high as they are if it wern't for their ludicrously good paintjobs.

One thing which does strike, though: the 'Eavy Metal team is now painting armies for each release, rather than the old policy of painting one of each new squad/model. THis has had the inevitable effect.

Princeps
18-12-2005, 19:22
It's a question of quality vs quantity. They used to just show the same minis over and over. I don't buy WD anymore, but I'd prefer to see new stuff if I did.

big squig
18-12-2005, 20:11
Rackam's sales would likley not be half as high as they are if it wern't for their ludicrously good paintjobs.

One thing which does strike, though: the 'Eavy Metal team is now painting armies for each release, rather than the old policy of painting one of each new squad/model. This has had the inevitable effect.

True. Rackham minis are a lot less impressive and seem really out of proportion when not painted. The rules are a real let down too.

Insane Psychopath
18-12-2005, 22:15
Just to ask all those bashing people painting abilty from the WD.

How good your painting????

Unless you mange to win Golden Daemon or win best painted army... or that least be in the top x Number . Then you should not be judgeing other people models going "ohh there s****" instead if you find someone painting bad, help them out.

Now I know you can not talk to the WD team or those thaty paint like so.

Just this is what I learnt in my model making course is that you never judge other people work. If it not great then you try & help them out.

It simple if you do not like the White Dwarf for this reason... you know your not bound to buy it, you are free to keep the 4 for somthing else.

IP

Grimtuff
18-12-2005, 23:16
Unless you mange to win Golden Daemon or win best painted army... or that least be in the top x Number . Then you should not be judgeing other people models going "ohh there s****" instead if you find someone painting bad, help them out.


Erm why is my opnion not as valued as a guy who can paint to GD standards, I think you should be able to criticize work even if you have no real ability in that field

Can you cook for example? By your logic if you could not and ate a meal that tasted bad you could not critique it as you don't have the ability.

I may not be able to paint to EM standards but I can sure tell the difference between a Picasso and a car crash.

tzeentchgiant
18-12-2005, 23:48
I agree (with grimtuff) there is no reason why someone less good, shouldn't criticise someone's work, and in this case, I can see strong reason for that sort of critique, WD's standards have slipped, each one of us is entitled to an opinion about how good something is, regardless of our own abilities in that area.

I see where you're coming from though IP, I just disagree, and can you yourself not see the calaber of the models shifting badly downhill?

Not by much, but enough to notice.

TG

Chuffy
19-12-2005, 19:37
Saying someones not qualified to critisise the painting of a mini is like saying someones not qualified to like the painting of said mini.

What gives YOU the right to like it!? Huh? HUH!?

Rolleyes.

Insane Psychopath
19-12-2005, 19:51
What gives YOU the right to like it!? Huh? HUH!?

I know what I like, or if I feel somthng dose lack, I do not b**** about it going "omg god it the worst thing" no. Instead I would give tip on how the person below my leval can add some more detail, but if someone a high painter than I am, I ask them for tips & that help impove my skills.

You got to rememeber none of us can paint to a gold daemon standard in a day, it take time & learning new skills. Well all go from the noob stage to the just decent then to a good stage.



I see where you're coming from though IP, I just disagree, and can you yourself not see the calaber of the models shifting badly downhill?

Thanks tzeentchgiant.

Grimtuff
19-12-2005, 20:08
I know what I like, or if I feel somthng dose lack, I do not b**** about it going "omg god it the worst thing" no. Instead I would give tip on how the person below my leval can add some more detail, but if someone a high painter than I am, I ask them for tips & that help impove my skills.


That's not what Chuffy and myself were asking, what we want to know is why you believe that only people of superior painting skill can legitimately criticise a miniature?

Hell, I can't direct, but I know crap TV when I see it. Are Directors the only people allowed to be film critics? I think not.

For example, I think Joe Orteza's (Golden Demon winner) sculpting skills are really doughy, and frankly make the model look crap (yes it is a style that is done well, but not to my tastes) can I sculpt as well as him? Hell no, but I can still give constructive criticism on it.

Surely by the same argument, you could not judge the painting skills of a Slayer Sword winner (there's a thought, how many Golden Demon judges can actually paint like their competitors?) as you are not on that level yet

Spacemunkie
20-12-2005, 10:05
I can paint pretty well (ooh, am I qualified to make the following statement!)and I reckon the standard of painting in WD is at the worst level it has been in years. All this rubbish about kids seeing average or poor paintjobs and not being put off. Utter pish. The work in WD should be inspirational and of the highest quality that can possibly be produced if you want to promote the models.

It's not down to 'Eavy Metal, it's down to the amount of 'hobbyist' tat that's shoved in every month as filler.

"It's your White Dwarf!". Yeah, 'cos you lot like cutting corners/costs and getting other people to do the work for you! I'd rather see WD shrunk by 20 pages and have a massive rise in quality i think.

tzeentchgiant
20-12-2005, 12:34
Well, spacemunkie, I agree with the hobbyist aspect being the cause of quite a lot of the poorer models in WD, I however don't want WD to shrink even more (it would be half ads then), what I want to see happen is better painted models, I don't care if you repeat the same people what's needed is different models, more tutorials, modeling in place of painting (some can convert well but ruin them with a shawdy paint job).

I miss the old days, hobby is good, but without a high standard I agree, it is just page filling.

TG

Elusive
20-12-2005, 15:43
What is WD nowadays except for a catalogue and ads? (oh and some LOTR that noone wants anyway..)

General Samuel of the 101
20-12-2005, 18:00
Nothing More Nothing Less
But they have some good Quality Articles for time to time
Like that Cadia High Command of the 306