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Rydmend
11-02-2009, 13:48
I just played a game of 2nd edition for kicks and I forgot how stupid alot of the rules were. The core gameplay is still pretty fun but some of the special rules and wargear are a little crazy. Vortex grenades and virus bombs were so broken....

Anyone else feel that some of the 2nd ed rules were a little barbaric (maybe I'm just a sissy now from playing 4th and 5th ed)?

marv335
11-02-2009, 14:06
2nd ed had some good aspects, Such as movement and shooting, but others were a complete nightmare (combat, I'm looking at you) and some of the wargear cards were an abusive nightmare.
I far prefer 5th ed.

ankara halla
11-02-2009, 14:16
I'm under the impression it's universally agreed to, that specifically the Virus and Vortex -wargear cards should have never seen the light of day, and that the CC system left something to desire for.

I love 2nd ed and find no excuse for these faults. It's still better than anything that's come after it IMHO, though that's not to say that 3-5th editions are bad. Just... different.

Korras
11-02-2009, 14:22
the virus grenade was indeed very messed up.. I've once had it go through an ENTIRE ork army like wildfire. the whole thing was packed together, and in the end, all got infected, and fell over.

we agreed afterwards to ignore that grenade, place all the models upright again, and never ever use that grenade anymore.

I also agree about the close combat. gods, that took hours to figure out, with countless of modifiers (higher ground, lower ground, etc..).. or the focus on character models, with their insane stats. or every single weapon having different stats, using D3's, D6's, D8's, D10's and D20's for wounds and armour penetration.

I remember I was quite happy with 3rd edition after that, heh.

The Clairvoyant
11-02-2009, 14:26
Please don’t refer to vortex grenades as ‘broken’
2nd edition pre-dates all these silly terms people use these days and so they shouldn’t be used!

You don’t *have* to use such items. Back in the day, we had a ban on certain combos such as WarpJump/Vortex grenade because they were dull, predictable and took away from a great game. Or using the dark millennium vehicle weapon rules to strip a land raider down to just 4pts and use it as a big ram!

And I just don’t get the “combat took forever” line people seem to come out with all the time when referring to 2nd. What on earth were you doing?? Roll D6 equal to number of attacks, add WS and +/- any modifiers for criticals or fumbles. Compare with opponent, roll for damage and saves.
I don’t ever remember having to take a toilet break during the combat phase, or feeling the need to order a pizza.

Col. Dash
11-02-2009, 14:31
Are you nuts? The CC system was great. It was individual combat not this bucket of dice crap we have now that makes no sense. It actually made a difference that you had a sword versus an axe or using a rifle as a club. Vortex is a little much until you have a vehicle that had the wargear device that set vortex grenades off on whoever happened to be carrying it, which tended to be funny. Overall I think VGs were banned in most games I was in. Characters could be taken down by regular guys, you just had to do it right. Either in big groups or hit them with multi-wound causing weapons.
This crap about games taking too long is just that. Two players who knew what they were doing would take 1 hour per 1k points on average.
There are alot of things they absolutely need to bring back. Armor save modifiers is the biggest one I can think of off hand. I would be happy with just this. Movement rates for each race are nice, but not as important. Being able to fire multiple weapons at different units would be nice and realistic, ie the lasguns of a squad fire at the orks, while the lascannon crew fire at the battlewagon(they arent idiots).

BigRob
11-02-2009, 14:33
Indeed, don't forget that the second edition combat rules were in Necromunda as well and that never had any complaints. Second editions problem was that the armies needed to play it were alot smaller than they would be today, so playing you would be playing a 3-4000pt 2nd edition game with your 2000pt 5th ed army easily. Also the reaosnably loose vehicle rules were because GW didn't produce that many vehicles so most people would build them out of other toys. Remember the Grav tank and Groundhog from Rogue Trader built from deoderant bottles and zoids.

Yes somethings were abused a little but the game still had a spillover of the narrative style from Rogue Trader and you just didn't push it too much, I never saw any of the WAAC powergaming that exists now and back then it was so much easier to do.

Snotteef
11-02-2009, 14:39
I agree that virus bombs (and the virus strategy card) were ridiculous. We banned them. I ripped up my virus strategy card.

The vortex grenade, on the other hand, I always thought was the great balancer. It made people think twice about using expensive uber-characters, for fear of losing them to the vortex grenade. At 50 points for a one-shot item, it seems reasonable to me. If you don't sink tons of points in a single model, it's not even very scary.

I hate the combat system too. I hated it then and I hate it now.

My perfect 40k would use 2nd edition's core mechanics, with 5th edition style assualt, slightly faster movement overall (maybe 5" for a human), lower save modifiers (I hated that most people never got their save and marines were essentially 4+).... lowering all modifiers by 1 point would probably fix most of that issue, 5th edition style vehicle rules (ala ONE damage chart.... I hated carrying around umpteen vehicle cards every game), and would adopt the general trend of new editions to have lower point values for basic troops, with less special gear.

2nd edition is a blast and is better at simulating combat. It was much less abstract. Modern editions are generally more balanced and quick to play with more focus on troops and with bigger armies. I just wish we could mash them together. 5th edition with movement values, modifiers (shooting and armor) and overwatch, would make for a GREAT gaming experiene, IMHO.

Korras
11-02-2009, 14:39
oh, the combat system was great for small skirmish games. but, for the larger battles, I prefer the new rules.

on top of that, I once had an opponent who claimed his models got the height advantage bonus.. because they had raised, scenic, bases.

Col.Gravis
11-02-2009, 15:26
on top of that, I once had an opponent who claimed his models got the height advantage bonus.. because they had raised, scenic, bases.

Whatever edition you play there are stupid people.

2nd Edition was great, and I'm still known to indulge in it now and again, that said it is more suited to skirmishes, while 5th is more suited to larger scale battles.

TheLionReturns
11-02-2009, 16:14
I loved 2nd edition but it was a completely different game and shouldn't really be compared with later editions. It was a skirmish game with smaller forces that focused on movement and shooting. It also had a great deal more variety and depth and so had more of a narrative generating element than current incarnations. In my experience it was also played in a more cooperative spirit, where balance wasn't an issue because players self regulated. By todays criteria some combos can be described as "barbaric" but the attitude to play at the time meant this wasn't really a problem.

pookie
11-02-2009, 16:35
I just played a game of 2nd edition for kicks and I forgot how stupid alot of the rules were. The core gameplay is still pretty fun but some of the special rules and wargear are a little crazy. Vortex grenades and virus bombs were so broken....

Anyone else feel that some of the 2nd ed rules were a little barbaric (maybe I'm just a sissy now from playing 4th and 5th ed)?

so other than two pieces of ignorable wargear, any clues to what you feel was broken? or are you just making a statement with no real purpose?

2nd ed was a much much better game, as long as both players used common sence ( which apprently people seem to have lost these days ).

Nero
11-02-2009, 16:55
2nd Ed should be treated like D&D - you're not required to use every rule just because it's there. Use what's appropriate for your gaming club. Anyone who wants to religiously stick to every written word of the rulebook is probably an anally-retentive unimaginative tosser and wouldn't be any fun to play against in any edition of 40k.

Also, close combat was fine at smaller scales (leaps and bounds ahead of current CC) it just didn't scale well. A fight between 10 Space Marines vs 10 Chaos Space Marines was interesting, varied, and actually required action on the part of the players, as opposed to the bland sludge we have now that is practically automated once combat starts.

The problem was when combat was between 10 Space Marines vs 50 Gaunts. *shudders*

It's not even particularily fair to say this is a fault of 2nd Ed's CC system. That'd be a bit like saying 5th Ed doesn't work because the rules are too slow and cumbersome when you play 3000pt games. There'll always be a point where any rule system becomes too slow as the numbers increase.

marv335
11-02-2009, 17:02
Individual combat was the problem.
2nd ed was a low level skirmish game. that's why the rules work so well for necromunda.
with the current numbers involved in a game, the 2nd ed mechanic bogs down really quickly.
Try Orks vs Nids with that system, then try it with the current one.
Time both.

40k has gotten too big for 2nd ed micromanaging

Toe Cutter
11-02-2009, 18:48
Having said that, the shooting and movement would still be relevant and work well in todays games. As snotteef has pointed out, 'the best 40k experience TM' would be a mash up of various bits from the different editions.

Murrithius
11-02-2009, 19:00
I just miss actually throwing frag grenades!

Brother Lysander
11-02-2009, 19:29
Vortex Detonator...think it was a a vehicle card. I recall the joy of forcing someone to essentially set a vortex grenade off at their feet :p.

oceansoul
11-02-2009, 21:05
Vortex grenades never caused any problems for us, they might kill a few things but never enough to make them game breaking. Virus grenades/outbreak on the other hand was too powerful, and the devs offered an apology for them in White Dwarf (as well as saying that you should just pull the cards out and tear them up)

ewar
11-02-2009, 22:40
40k is much better now. I have only returned to it in the past 18 months after a >10 year break of concentrating on fantasy, and you know what? Its actually fun to play now!

No more bickering about whether that single model is in -1 or -2 cover, no more insanely convoluted close combats, no more faffing with umpteen vehicle damage charts. The game flows now.

For those who deny there was any issue scaling 2nd ed, I challenge you to a 10k point game of 2nd ed Apocalypse... we'd only need a week to get through it.

The Clairvoyant
11-02-2009, 22:48
40k is much better now. I have only returned to it in the past 18 months after a >10 year break of concentrating on fantasy, and you know what? Its actually fun to play now!

No more bickering about whether that single model is in -1 or -2 cover, no more insanely convoluted close combats, no more faffing with umpteen vehicle damage charts. The game flows now.

For those who deny there was any issue scaling 2nd ed, I challenge you to a 10k point game of 2nd ed Apocalypse... we'd only need a week to get through it.

i used to play 10k games of 2nd ed 40k regularly, and we'd play it in a day very easily.
During school open evenings, we'd put on a 20k game and manage to finish it in 4 hours. Despite the number of damage charts, most of them were easy to remember and most had similar damage results.
So there you go, challenge accepted and completed 12 years before you posted this :D

Toe Cutter
11-02-2009, 22:53
Bloody hell. You've truly lived up to your name there mate. Congratulations.

Seriously though - did you really manage to play such huge games with the second edition rules? What kind of model count are we talking about here and did they tend to be largely shooty armies perhaps?

Pacific
11-02-2009, 22:57
I too didn't find the close combat too much of a drag.. it was amazing how quickly you got used to it, and could speed through it with a bit of experience.

And the benefits were tremendous - in no other version of 40k since is it possible for a marine commander to charge into a lasgun armed imperial guard and die after you roll a fistfull of ones ^_^

I think the number of players who left 40k for WFB, or stopped playing altogether, when 3rd edition was released is testament to this.

Still, like has been said, 2nd ed. very much needed cooperation of the opponents (much like D&D does), and 4 assault cannon wolf guard and teleporting vortex firing librarians could easily make the game pointless. The answer? A mutual respect for sportsmanship by both players. The zeitgeist is certainly different now, where seemingly every player has to have a muzzle on their face and be completely restrained in army list choice, and the only objective or point to the game they know is annihilation of their opponent as thorougly as possible.

*removes rose-tinted spectacles*

Still, at least GW has made a step back towards those days (true LOS, ramming etc.) and towards games being played just for 'fun', rather than the tournament scene which has only ever constituted a fringe of players, yet restricted the game to the point of strangulation for everyone else.

Poseidal
11-02-2009, 23:03
Personally, I think the 2nd edition core rules were very good and just needed some streamlining and modernisation

The codices and supplements though were the things that broke the game.

ewar
11-02-2009, 23:09
i used to play 10k games of 2nd ed 40k regularly, and we'd play it in a day very easily.
During school open evenings, we'd put on a 20k game and manage to finish it in 4 hours. Despite the number of damage charts, most of them were easy to remember and most had similar damage results.
So there you go, challenge accepted and completed 12 years before you posted this :D

Ok, please don't take this the wrong way, but the only way you completed a 20k point game of second ed 40k in FOUR hours was during the same dream you bagged all of the Baywatch girls in a room made of beer and cake. :D

The Clairvoyant
11-02-2009, 23:15
Bloody hell. You've truly lived up to your name there mate. Congratulations.

Seriously though - did you really manage to play such huge games with the second edition rules? What kind of model count are we talking about here and did they tend to be largely shooty armies perhaps?

probably not as many as you might expect. Probably around 4-500 models per side. Bear in mind that the dark millennium vehicle rules for changing weapons and vehicle cards made tanks rather expensive (who wants sponson mounted lascannons when you can have rapiers? Or twin-linked heavy bolters when you can replace them with assault cannons?)

Without wishing to sound arrogant, we all knew all of the rules inside out, knew every weapon stat, every vehicle chart, every units stats and had our own time-saving rules. For example, we never bothered with "declare all charges, compulsory movement, move chargers, move other units" rules. We did the declaration of charging at the same time as moving and would move some units and charge others at various points in the phase. Only if compulsory movement could beggar up a charge did we go through the different parts of the movement phase in order.
And there was a handy rule in the overwatch rules which stated that a unit loses overwatch if it moves or shoots during the turn. Therefore at the beginining of your turn you just declared "everything is on overwatch" and have it cancelled as you moved/fired during your turn. Then anything left over was on overwatch.

Also, the CC rules stated that if you roll a fumble you give the dice to your opponent to add to their score. What we did was just deduct 1 from our own score which made it much quicker for both players to count up.

And when it came to terminators with TH/SS, combat was really fast with auto-wound and -5 save mods!

- what you got?
- 5. you?
- more than 5. Dead!

The Clairvoyant
11-02-2009, 23:25
Ok, please don't take this the wrong way, but the only way you completed a 20k point game of second ed 40k in FOUR hours was during the same dream you bagged all of the Baywatch girls in a room made of beer and cake. :D

heheh :D

wrong way not taken.

TheMartyr451
12-02-2009, 00:06
I've been reading through all of my 2nd edition books. I miss it a lot. =(

chivalrous
12-02-2009, 00:12
Second edition, apart from a few incredibly powerful items that we restricted to 3000 point+ games was far more detailed and enjoyable to play, in my crusty old opinion anyway.
What's more is that I never once had an arguement about a rule because the codex or rulebook was ambiguous. books were written properly in those days.

However I stand side by side with the people who say the combat system was clunky. It was alright if you were playing Space Marines vs. Space marines and didn't have a great deal of combat going on but in any game over about 500 points with infantry heavy orks or nids then you'd be at the game for ages.

When I first played third edition I was mostly horrified and depressed by the wholesale sanitization of the game, but boy were the close combat phases quicker.

MasterDecoy
12-02-2009, 00:14
having recently managed to pick up a couple of old codex's my brother and I played a few games, From what I can tell, its just different.

its a lot more random, and a lot more things to remeber at once.

It's good for kill-team sort of action, but we where having trouble keeping up at 1000pts and that was with only a couple of dozen models (not to say we didnt keep up, it just ground to a halt), It probably didnt help that we are very used to a hevily modified House ruled version of 5th/4th ed (yeah, we sort of made our own game).

It was intresting though, I would be lying if I said it wasnt fun, But I wouldnt even come close to say its better than 5th ed (as others have pointed out, they are completely different games)

Snotteef
12-02-2009, 00:15
Personally, I think the 2nd edition core rules were very good and just needed some streamlining and modernisation

The codices and supplements though were the things that broke the game.

This statement has merit, but it applies to 3rd edition+ as well. The two times I had the most fun with 40k were: 1) Right after 2nd edition came out and we had to play using the army lists that came with the boxed set (no psychic cards, no super-silly combos, FAR fewer special rules and exceptions), and 2) Right after 3rd edition came out and we had to play using the lists in the back of the book (though orks without Mob rules and choppas were seriously underpowered) - for the same reasons.

This need to load up special rules and super characters in every codex really dampens my enjoyment of the game. I'm of the opinion that the rules in the main book should cover everything and still provide plenty of unique combinations for each army (i.e. Necrons should just have Feels No Pain, instead of WBB).

Doh! I've gone on an off-topic rant. Sorry. :p

trigger
12-02-2009, 00:23
2nd ed ruled , best games i have ever had. You had to use your head more , the modern game is too simple.

Drifts off in to a dreamy remembering state ' Ahhhhhhh those were the days.....'

Lord Malice
12-02-2009, 02:08
Are you nuts? The CC system was great.

Which is why I can still look fondly back on a space marine devastator killing three 'stealers in HtH, back then that really meant something.

Yep, 2nd Ed was my first foray into 40K and I look back on it fondly, 3rd Ed. seemed to sleak and sterile. I haven't played a game of 40K since the 3rd War for Armageddon but during 2nd I played regular at my local GW. Thems were the days.

catbarf
12-02-2009, 03:42
Complaining that a 10k point game in 2nd Ed would take too long is like complaining that your car makes a poor submarine.

To put it bluntly: You're doing it wrong.

The game is built and scaled around MUCH smaller armies. Even horde armies don't have too much trouble.

The problem is when people think that their 2k 5th Ed army will translate to a 2k 2nd Ed army. It doesn't work. It may come out to 4000-ish points, and will take as long as a 4000pt game does in 5th.

Rydmend
12-02-2009, 04:28
so other than two pieces of ignorable wargear, any clues to what you feel was broken? or are you just making a statement with no real purpose?

2nd ed was a much much better game, as long as both players used common sence ( which apprently people seem to have lost these days ).


I was just making a comment about two rules I don't think make for a fun time in many instances.....granted they can easily be ignored

I think the core mechanics of the 2nd ed rules are very fun but I do think the close combat system lends itself to skirmish games over large scale (as it was intended)

I never said anything else was broken 2nd ed just seems a little rough after playing with the new rule sets for so long, dealing with more modifiers and the such after so many years.

As for 2nd ed being a better game I don't really know. It's sort of like comparing chess and checkers, similar concept but way too different to say which is better. On the smaller point scale 2nd ed really shines but in a larger game I think 4th and 5th have thier moments....

Rydmend
12-02-2009, 04:31
Please don’t refer to vortex grenades as ‘broken’
2nd edition pre-dates all these silly terms people use these days and so they shouldn’t be used!


Okay, I won't use the term "broken" to describe a rule that was around before the term "broken" was applied to 40k.

But next time you read the Canterbury Tales you have to use Middel English to tell us how much you liked it.....since you apparently can't use modern terms to describe past writing....go figure.

scarletsquig
12-02-2009, 07:40
2nd edition was fairly quick... IF you had a gigantic amount of obscure knowledge such as:

"What's the armour penetration of a reaper autocannon?"

"Oh, it's 4d3+d6+2d12+d8!" (not accurate, but a lot of them were just as complicated!)

memorized off by heart. Otherwise, a whole lot of referring to tables and rulebooks was required, slowing things down a lot.

I didn't think much of the overpowered wargear, but strategy cards were pretty cool, would be nice to see race-specific ones return to the game as standard, and in a non-card form.

Also, has it really been 12 years? I feel old.

Ronin_eX
12-02-2009, 08:16
Nah, you just needed to remember how many wounds it did and the rest was easy (armour penetration was Strength + Wounds + D6). And if you didn't that is why 2nd came with quick reference sheets. But after a few games you remembered your army's stats.

The only complicated one were lightning claws really but who attacked vehicles with those when the Thunderhammer was so much better?

Seriously, memorizing stuff for wargames isn't all that hard (besides just think about how much needs to be memorized for even something so "simple" as 4th/5th edition) and most come with quick references to ease that even more. Sometimes I wonder about gamers today *grumble grumble*.

:p

PS - And the autocannon is only 2D6+8 (does D6 wounds) and has Sustained Fire 1, a short range of 0-20 and a long range of 20-72, armour mod -3 and a strength of 8 (obviously from the constant in the armour pen). Hmm, not bad for a weapon I never use (much prefer the assault cannon myself :D).

PPS - Had to check it out, the penetration for two LCs is 8+D20+D3+D6 for a single hit or 8+3D6+D20 for two hits. Though this became easy to remember when you remembered that most power weapons have a "close combat strength" bonus against armoured vehicles that usually equates to a D20 in addition to the normal stuff. But all in all I think weapons dealing multiple wounds is a lot better than the current instant death rules, made some heavy weapons real nice to have against things like the Nids. Simplifying it to just D6's would have been a better option but I'll take the variety in 2nd over the uniformity in 3rd+ myself, I just wish a happy median could have been reached instead.


Complaining that a 10k point game in 2nd Ed would take too long is like complaining that your car makes a poor submarine.

To put it bluntly: You're doing it wrong.

The game is built and scaled around MUCH smaller armies. Even horde armies don't have too much trouble.

The problem is when people think that their 2k 5th Ed army will translate to a 2k 2nd Ed army. It doesn't work. It may come out to 4000-ish points, and will take as long as a 4000pt game does in 5th.

And this three times over, and then once more for good measure. It's like saying Epic lacks poor squad based skirmish mechanics or the Battlefleet Gothic does ground war poorly or hell that Blood Bowl is a bad system for epic fantasy warfare between two armies. 2nd is a small scale skirmish game, about the platoon level (like RT), it does that well. It is not some bastard game scale that can't decide if it wants to be a small scale skirmish or a large company level battle game but opts for in between despite not leaving enough manoeuvring room for the latter while simplifying the rules so it make a poor contender for the former.

If platoon level isn't one's thing then the best way of fixing that is not to play a mega-battle with the platoon level rules. That will end in disappointment in most cases. Especially as the rules say that anything above 4000 points is going to usually be a looooooooong game. Criticizing a game for not being your favourite scale is like criticizing a cupcake for being a small cake with sprinkles. You may not like them and like cake instead, but to others that is still a damn fine cupcake.

Alright, I'm done with the edits now. :D

BigRob
12-02-2009, 08:25
2nd edition was fairly quick... IF you had a gigantic amount of obscure knowledge such as:

"What's the armour penetration of a reaper autocannon?"

"Oh, it's 4d3+d6+2d12+d8!" (not accurate, but a lot of them were just as complicated!)

memorized off by heart. Otherwise, a whole lot of referring to tables and rulebooks was required, slowing things down a lot.

I didn't think much of the overpowered wargear, but strategy cards were pretty cool, would be nice to see race-specific ones return to the game as standard, and in a non-card form.

Also, has it really been 12 years? I feel old.

No, you just whip up a quick summary sheet for your army, copy all the weapon stats you need from the wargearbook onto a small piece of card and you have no need to worry about digging in books, its all there in front of you.
Provided you could keep your datafaxs and wargear cards in order there was very little bookkeeping needed (try playing a large game of Man'O'War!)

The Clairvoyant
12-02-2009, 09:57
I remember when i first played WFB in 4th ed and found out that all ranged weapons are -1 to hit at long range, and long range was simply over half-range.
I also remember thinking that was terribly simplistic compared with 40ks mixed short/long ranges and to hit modifiers.

Nowadays, i'm glad of the simplified method. Its much harder to remember new stuff now i'm older!

If i remember rightly (it has been a long time) there were no to hit modifiers on any heavy weapons etc apart from the assault cannon which had +1 at short range (0-20"). All pistols were +2 to hit at short range and plasma pistols were -1 at long range.

As someone pointed out, any weapon used in close combat to hit a tank etc gained an armour penetration bonus based on its strength. The tyranid venom cannon was not a move-or-fire weapon and so was able to be used to blow up tanks in close combat far more effectively than the bonesword thanks to the extra D20 it added on top of its normal penetration.

Ronin_eX
12-02-2009, 10:24
Indeed a simplified range band system would be nice, simplifying it like they did in WFB was a much better option than the current state in 40k.

This could be done with everything from armour pen to cover and it would be fairly simple. 2nd had some great ideas and went overboard in some places but 3rd threw the good ideas out completely which is why I can never think of anything based off of it as more than just an inferior system compared to what they had.

They really should have repaired the system they had instead of making one that was practically new. Would have been simpler and ended up with better results rather than the near decade of meandering shoddy design.

pookie
12-02-2009, 11:53
Bloody hell. You've truly lived up to your name there mate. Congratulations.

Seriously though - did you really manage to play such huge games with the second edition rules? What kind of model count are we talking about here and did they tend to be largely shooty armies perhaps?

me and a friend often played games that involved 300+ marines, and as kids ( i was 13 when it was released ) found the rules simple and easy, maybe its age related dementia :evilgrin: but todays rules are over complicated at times.

Col. Dash
12-02-2009, 12:47
Ug I keep hearing how you have to memorize this and that for each weapon. Do you people look up what every weapon does nowadays? I dont, I have played my armies often enough that I know what they do, how far they shoot, what their strength is and whether you get an armor save. Its really not that hard after you have played a few times to remember, even if you dont purposely try to memorize them. The same went for 2nd ed, you used weapons often enough, you figured out what they did. Thats why games between two experienced players went as fast or faster than modern 40k. A few years ago i played a 2nd ed game on a table next to some 4th ed players, one of them making smart remarks about us playing "That slow old game". We had done a complete game by the start of their 3rd turn at a 2k game.
Like I said before, the main thing i miss is armor save modifiers, bring them back and get rid of this silly AP system and I will be a little happier.

The Clairvoyant
12-02-2009, 12:57
Like I said before, the main thing i miss is armor save modifiers, bring them back and get rid of this silly AP system and I will be a little happier.

Just substitute AP for save mods and away you go. AP6 is -1, AP5 is -2 etc.
If you're hitting someone with a S4 weapon in combat, make saves at -1 just like the old days.
Let heavy weapon troops choose a different target.
Let tanks fire different weapons at different targets (thats one of the silliest rules that i've noticed on my return to 40k)

If you're just playing among friends you can change whatever you like!

Toe Cutter
12-02-2009, 13:20
Do you give the terminators back their old armour saves though?

Go on, be a sport :)

Col. Dash
12-02-2009, 13:49
I liked khorne termies with a 2+ save on 2d6, lol

Chiron
12-02-2009, 14:26
When 3rd edition appeared I left the hobby entirely about a year later after trying to get into WFB

These days I play WFB and miss the hell out of blowing things up with tanks but still cannot bring myself to play 40k with the new rules... at some point I'm going to write up a 2nd edition port over to a d10 system but finding the time to write everything down and test it is very very tricky :(

pookie
12-02-2009, 14:34
Do you give the terminators back their old armour saves though?

Go on, be a sport :)


I liked khorne termies with a 2+ save on 2d6, lol

only if i can have save modifiers :D

Snotteef
12-02-2009, 14:36
I remember when i first played WFB in 4th ed and found out that all ranged weapons are -1 to hit at long range, and long range was simply over half-range.
I also remember thinking that was terribly simplistic compared with 40ks mixed short/long ranges and to hit modifiers.

Nowadays, i'm glad of the simplified method. Its much harder to remember new stuff now i'm older!

If i remember rightly (it has been a long time) there were no to hit modifiers on any heavy weapons etc apart from the assault cannon which had +1 at short range (0-20"). All pistols were +2 to hit at short range and plasma pistols were -1 at long range.

As someone pointed out, any weapon used in close combat to hit a tank etc gained an armour penetration bonus based on its strength. The tyranid venom cannon was not a move-or-fire weapon and so was able to be used to blow up tanks in close combat far more effectively than the bonesword thanks to the extra D20 it added on top of its normal penetration.


The Venom Cannon couldn't be used in close combat. Only close combat weapons and pistols could be used in close combat, and pistols (just like now) reverted to the user's strength. ;)

Laspistols were -1 at long range as well, stub pistols were -1 at long and received no bonus at short, etc. Each weapon was different. I like shooting modifiers, but I would have been just as happy with a universal: weapons firing at half range receive a +1 bonus to hit.

Col. Dash
12-02-2009, 14:43
There were to hit mods. I dont remember range being one of them, but its been awhile. Being in partial cover though gave a -1 to hit, and I think full cover gave a -2.

-Pookie, only if I get a displacer field as well.

pookie
12-02-2009, 15:00
There were to hit mods. I dont remember range being one of them, but its been awhile. Being in partial cover though gave a -1 to hit, and I think full cover gave a -2. .

thats correct


-Pookie, only if I get a displacer field as well.

aye no problem, bring it on :D - remeber though you can only use wargear if you have the wargear cards and if you agree i also get to use them ( ive 5 sets :evilgrin: :cheese:)

Col. Dash
12-02-2009, 16:00
HAHA! Thats great, I dont think back in the day we actually followed that one, if I remember we had a master list and you were only allowed to have one of each in each army.
Thats ok, we can drop virus grenades and I'll just use my 365 point nurgle sorcerer and hit your army with plague wind. Plague bearers anyone?

The Clairvoyant
12-02-2009, 16:30
in terms of wargear cards, they printed a thing in whitedwarf (around WD195-ish) which listed all the wargear cards and whether they were 'uncommon', 'rare' or 'unique'
'Uncommon' you could use as many times as you like, 'rare' you could use as many as there were cards of, and 'unique' was one-off only.

Uncommon was stuff like Kustom Shootas and jump packs
rare was stuff like vortex grenades and combat drugs
Unique was stuff like Ghazghkulls Adamantium Skull or gauntlets of ultramar.

pookie
12-02-2009, 17:09
in terms of wargear cards, they printed a thing in whitedwarf (around WD195-ish) which listed all the wargear cards and whether they were 'uncommon', 'rare' or 'unique'
'Uncommon' you could use as many times as you like, 'rare' you could use as many as there were cards of, and 'unique' was one-off only.

Uncommon was stuff like Kustom Shootas and jump packs
rare was stuff like vortex grenades and combat drugs
Unique was stuff like Ghazghkulls Adamantium Skull or gauntlets of ultramar.

195 - that will have been the WD with a BA Terminator on it? possibly?

thats true, and some of the worst were the ones you could have multiple time :cheese: hence why Vortex grenades were brill... i mean erm, no Brill will suffice :p

the anti santa
12-02-2009, 21:07
One thing i loathed about 2nd edition was the stay in play grenades. Vehicles could fire 3 blind grenades in a turn (and do it twice per game if memory serves) and you'd have to roll for each grenade every turn and they could change size or move.

Those must have been banned in mega battles or 1 turn of that alone would be longer than a 5th edition game :cries:

Psychic powers were a bit silly as well, with Vortex being just sick.

The people saying 2nd edition was great if you house ruled it are doing 3rd-5th edition a bit of a disservice, there's no reason you couldn't do the same to the newer versions of the game. And saying "2nd edition was awesome... just so long as you didn't take Vortex, virus, use too many psychic powers, max out on assault cannons etc." doesn't make a lot of sense.

That said i did love some of the old 2nd edition books, and Sqauts were still in it too :D

The 2nd edition Chaos codex is still the best army book GW have ever done

catbarf
12-02-2009, 22:06
And saying "2nd edition was awesome... just so long as you didn't take Vortex, virus, use too many psychic powers, max out on assault cannons etc." doesn't make a lot of sense.

It doesn't make sense that the writers assume that you are intelligent enough not to take a contrived, unfluffy, cheesy list?

Chiron
12-02-2009, 22:11
It doesn't make sense that the writers assume that you are intelligent enough not to take a contrived, unfluffy, cheesy list?

Its amazing how easy it was for people to follow rule zero when the internet didnt exist


Rule 0: Dont be a dick

Murrithius
12-02-2009, 22:49
I also never remember people scouring the rules, to make sure everything is done by the letter. 2nd ed always seemed much more relaxed than now (though that might have been my naive youth...)

silence
12-02-2009, 23:00
I think that the more relaxed atmosphere of 2nd ed, the lack of power gaming, and more use of commonsense, may have something to do with tournament's having much less of an impact then than they do now.

I prefered 2nd ed, to the later editions. But then it was my first edition and like my first car (Skoda Favorit) I'm probably prepared to forgive far more now looking back than at the time when I was useing it :D

catbarf
13-02-2009, 00:04
Its amazing how easy it was for people to follow rule zero when the internet didnt exist


Rule 0: Dont be a dick

I've got to agree. The Internet is a wonderful thing, but there wouldn't be nearly the number of cheesy lists and broken armies if people couldn't spread them across the globe and collaborate with like-minded peers.

Col. Dash
13-02-2009, 00:18
Very true. I remember when I was stationed to a new base back then and I showed up with a full squad of twin lightning clawed pre-heresy khorne terminators(for any who dont know or dont remember, the chaos codex allowed you to bring preheresy equipment from the space marine codex, you just had to pay extra points) and no one in that area even thought of using them, while in my old area they were common as dirt. Nowadays I dont think that exists in the game.
Off topic but in the same mind, Anyone remember Magic: The Gathering before the internet became as commonplace as it is? Same exact thing, everyone had very different decks and themes behind them because for the most part the only people you could glean ideas from were yourself and your immediate group. Going to a convention or somethingn of that nature exposed you to all kinds of new ideas. Now from what I can gather talking to card players(I stopped playing back in the late 90s) the situation is pretty much the same there as it is with us and 40k. The power builds and metagame are all over the web and pretty much everyone has a variation of similar themes. (and before any current magic players shoot at me, this is what I was told talking to a group of them, I am just bringing up similarities)
I say we ban the internet, who is with me? :P

MasterDecoy
13-02-2009, 00:20
I say we ban the internet, who is with me? :P

Just let me get my pitchfork......