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thisisntnotjt
11-02-2009, 15:36
Issues have been coming up for me while writing my lists lately; knowing that Daemons is a very popular and powerful army, not only must I write to beat their lists, but I must also account for the possibilities of facing a Greater Daemon. This is an issues for almost every army book, but I've had specific trouble with my High Elves and Lizardmen.

High Elves seem to require some sort of big killing prince on a dragon, or lots and lots of bolt throwers. Magic seems a bit unreliable against them due to magic levels or, on a scarier level, lots of magic resistance. If I want to make a magic list, what am I to do?

Lizardmen have a very similar issue, probably needing an Old-blood on carnosaur and/or running around with the expensive and single minded Blade of Realities. Stegadons just won't do the trick.

Any thoughts on these issues, or for other armies?

blackjack
11-02-2009, 16:21
Old-blood on carnosaur and/or running around with the expensive and single minded Blade of Realities.

Bad news here, The Carni is too slow to catch the KOS, LOC or BT whom all move or fly 10, in addition the BT can have obsidian armor so can be immune to the Blade of real. The only greater daemon a carni/realities old blood Might be able to kill is the GUO.

The best anti Greater Deamon units Lizards can get are DOW cannons.

thisisntnotjt
11-02-2009, 16:25
Except dogs of war aren't sanctioned anymore. Though, I guess it's possible to outmaneuver the GD by threatening the flanks of his weaker troops. Besides that you basically have to come up with some way to keep it out of the game for the most part, or minimize damage.

Bodysnatcher
11-02-2009, 16:53
It's very easy for Lizardmen to kill GDs. Poison. In large amounts. In every game my LoC or my friend's KoS has died against Lizardmen it's been to skink blowpipes. GUOs with trappings are nigh on impossible to kill, but they don't dish it out much so you can often static combat res them. Bloodthirsters are best zapped with magic. Lots of magic.

Buddha777
11-02-2009, 17:05
Lore of the Beasts can help hold those speedy GD in place. The LoC and even KoS arn't as threatening to lizardmen than say a BT with obsidian armor so don't panic too much.

Disciple of Caliban
11-02-2009, 17:50
It's very easy for Lizardmen to kill GDs. Poison. In large amounts. In every game my LoC or my friend's KoS has died against Lizardmen it's been to skink blowpipes. GUOs with trappings are nigh on impossible to kill, but they don't dish it out much so you can often static combat res them. Bloodthirsters are best zapped with magic. Lots of magic.
This is great.

I remember an old white dwarf article written by Mike 'the man' Walker. It was basically his treatise on how to kill a bloodthirster, and came to the same conclusion. Poison is god. LoC and KoS have pretty average saves, so will die pretty quickly to concentrated blowpipes (skinks are even manouverable enough to have a good chance at getting within range). The Bloodthirster is more of a problem being as it also has a nice armour save, lizardmen can bring enough poison shooting to bring it down, but you'll still need a bit of luck. The GUO is rarely worth worrying about in my opinion, he's too slow to drastically effect a game, and can be tied up easily enough.

For lizzies a list including the following should have a decent chance at dealing with a greater deamon:

3+ units of skirmishing skinks (ranked skinks simply wont catch most GDs),
1+ Ancient steg with blowpipes
I cant remember if razordons attacks are poisonous, if so some of them couldnt hurt.

High elves are going to struggle to bring enough shooting to bear (bolt throwers are the only things elves have that can reliably hurt a GD), so generally need a dragon riding prince to have a good chance at killing the big bad. If thats not your cup of tea then either load up on bolt throwers, or just look to minise the deamons impact instead of trying to kill it.

Coram_Boy
11-02-2009, 19:17
Lore of the Beasts can help hold those speedy GD in place. The LoC and even KoS arn't as threatening to lizardmen than say a BT with obsidian armor so don't panic too much.

sadly, the new FAQ says that GD's are not affected by the beast cowers and other spells that affect monsters.

Buddha777
11-02-2009, 19:28
sadly, the new FAQ says that GD's are not affected by the beast cowers and other spells that affect monsters.

.... That is no bueno

Lord Aislinn
11-02-2009, 19:55
Lore of the Beasts can help hold those speedy GD in place. The LoC and even KoS arn't as threatening to lizardmen than say a BT with obsidian armor so don't panic too much.

Lore of Beasts can't touch GDs, they're characters, and count as monsters only for movement purposes.

Storak
11-02-2009, 20:47
Lore of Beasts can't touch GDs, they're characters, and count as monsters only for movement purposes.

on a positive side note, with the FAQ GDs also lost their unit strength,. (might be zero now actually..)

Bodysnatcher
11-02-2009, 21:30
on a positive side note, with the FAQ GDs also lost their unit strength,. (might be zero now actually..)

Huh? What are you on about?

dal9ll
11-02-2009, 21:40
Yeah, how can something zero unit-strength? I thought for Monsters and GD's, their units strength is equal to their starting Wounds?

MarcoPollo
12-02-2009, 04:09
Best way to deal with GD is to try to mitigate their damage while you make off with the rest of his army. Harrass with skirmishers, flyers, etc, while the rest of his puny army (and it will be puny) gets munched. At the end either hide and capture table quarters, of if you have enough troops left, combo charge with flanks, rears etc and pop him.

Embalmed
12-02-2009, 07:55
Lore of Beasts can't touch GDs, they're characters, and count as monsters only for movement purposes.

Indeed, all their hard work to eliminate every shred of weakness in the DoC list would have been for nought had they let this slip through.

Yeah poison should work. Also vs BT baby steggies bow could get some lucky wounds, particularly if you roll a '6', Second Sign is a help here.

isidril93
12-02-2009, 18:48
on a positive side note, with the FAQ GDs also lost their unit strength,. (might be zero now actually..)

so they dont negate flanks

1 to the daemon prince : 0 to the greater daemons

akgaroth
12-02-2009, 18:53
It pisses me off as Khorne follower, but the best GD is the Slaneshi one, even if it has no gifts: with this one you really need to be lucky. Maybe a Slann can destroy it with tricky objects (like the one that passes Failed casts to an opponent sorcerer) with the lore of light and a good magic support.
Even so, the new Lizardemens have also access to some good equipement against GD: for example a saurus oldblood with GW, shield (for eventualities), Hide of Cold ones (a must have), Diadem of gliphes (5+ ward save) and cursed puppet (causes 2 instead of 1 on a selected character). For a character costing about 250 is not bad at all and it could be a serious threat even for a BT.

Lijacote
12-02-2009, 20:09
so they dont negate flanks

1 to the daemon prince : 0 to the greater daemons

... No.

The greater daemon is still far ahead in efficiency and brute force. If that US-thing is true then regarding this case it's 0 to both and -1 reason not to take a daemon prince.

It's still not really that positive.

Angelust
13-02-2009, 19:33
How about High Elves? Any magic lores that are good against thirsters?

Disciple of Caliban
13-02-2009, 19:52
^^ Not really, the inbuilt MR makes it tricky to get spells off against one, and even if you do, there are too many spells that can seriously hurt something as tough as a GD

Angelust
13-02-2009, 20:59
Ooh, thought of something tricky.

Noble with greAt weapon and armor of stars ... In ranked up spearmen.

Draw a charge, challenge, 3 gw attacks, disappear after 1 wound. With warbanner you win by at least 5 cr.

TroyJPerez
14-02-2009, 02:09
GD unit strength is its starting wounds, anyone who thinks otherwise shall be pointed at and mocked! lol Besides they arn't all that powerful. A couple bolter hits will drop one, lore of light is pretty brutal against them and is area effect so no magic resistance. I belive high elves have a magic banner of +1d6 combat resolution, if you have a full rank of troops and that banner you can make a GD pop himself with his stability roll. Also I think high elves have dragons that are just as strong as a greater demon. And for lizardmen, well you have the dirtiest cheapest tactic in the game. You just park a billion skinks in water and shoot out and kill stuff without being hurt. Cause most of the greater demons lack efficient ranged attacks. Well unless its magic, and who is reall gonna waste magic on skinks?

Stmr5000
16-02-2009, 00:31
The answer is a very simple one, and can also be applied to Dragons, chariots, war machines, ranked infantry, and pretty much everything you don't want to deal with.

Cannons. Be it Dogs, Empire, or Dwarves, a minimum of D3 wounds against a large target is going to put a fear of God in pretty much anything. Remember, the more there, the more things blow up. :D

NotFarnaby
16-02-2009, 01:54
The answer is a very simple one, and can also be applied to Dragons, chariots, war machines, ranked infantry, and pretty much everything you don't want to deal with.

Cannons. Be it Dogs, Empire, or Dwarves, a minimum of D3 wounds against a large target is going to put a fear of God in pretty much anything. Remember, the more there, the more things blow up. :D

That's really great advice. Now what about the other 11+ army books that *don't* have access to cannons?

Dooks Dizzo
16-02-2009, 03:29
Guys the Old Blood with the Blade of Realities is great for taking on the big daemons, don't let anyone tell you other wise.

Obsidian armor keeps coming up, okay fine. But it's not like a BT comes stock with it or anything. People do in fact use other builds.

And even if he does negate the Blade...you're forgetting about the 4 or 5, Str7 D3 wounds the OB is riding on. Sure you need 5's to hit but it's at least as effective as a bolt thrower. And it's not like the Old Blood himself is a slouch.

Especially considering the BT may very well have taken a couple of wounds before the combat kicks off.

And why do you think an M7 unit can't ever get into combat with a flyer? If he's spending that much time avoiding you, you've practically won anyway.

Axis
16-02-2009, 03:43
If you don't have cannons then you might have bolt throwers which are very good too. Even if you don't kill it if you drop it quite a few wounds it becomes a much easier task. Also if it gets low enough the enemy will think twice about sending it into certain combats.

If you don't have cannons/bolt throwers/stone throwers (so like half the armies lol) then you can either go for static combat res (which doesn't work very well) or maybe magic (though magicing a thirster away is hard). Enough arrows or crossbow bolts and it will die but this is not very efficient unless it is already down to 1-2 wounds. Charging it with knights also can do it (though not against the keeper)

If you can't kill it then you have to make sure it doesn't kill a lot. So use misdirection. Or throw a good sized unbreakable unit at it.

If you can't do that then just try and kill everything else and try minimise the damage the daemon can do. If the greater daemon is still on full wounds but there is nothing else left in his army there is a good chance you've won anyway.

Dooks Dizzo
16-02-2009, 03:48
Oh yeah, I used to use this build:
5 x Cold One Knights
Warbanner
BSB w/ Pendant and 1+ armor save

Generally the Big Nasty gets 0 wounds in a challenge against the BSB then loses combat by 4. (Battle Standard, Standard, Warbanner, Outnumber) Rinse repeat until he rolls a 10 for leadership :)

It works pretty well with any 'unkillable' Lord or Hero build and some static combat resolution.

Remember, the BT can 'only' get 7 combat res from wounds (assuming he doesn't get 2d6+2 attacks). In a challenge he can only get a max of 6.

Ranked up infantry with a banner usually have a standing 5. Many armies can get that higher, then get a 0+ armor save hero in there with maybe a 5 or 6+ ward to drop his number of wounds down to about 3 or 4.

shaun03
16-02-2009, 04:32
whats a good way to deal with the GD of nurgle?

fubukii
16-02-2009, 06:55
pit of shades, redirecting charges, flaming attacks (burning gaze is a great spell vs him),among the other things are a good counter for the guo

W0lf
16-02-2009, 08:13
GUO is easy to deal with.

Any static unit with good combat res will destroy him.

Empire swordsmen win by 3 on average. He only has 4 Ws4 attacks and so needs to be supported.... Then your looking at something like 1K worth of units.

snottlebocket
16-02-2009, 12:19
Bad news here, The Carni is too slow to catch the KOS, LOC or BT whom all move or fly 10, in addition the BT can have obsidian armor so can be immune to the Blade of real. The only greater daemon a carni/realities old blood Might be able to kill is the GUO.

The best anti Greater Deamon units Lizards can get are DOW cannons.

Just 20 skinks shot five wounds of my GUO in two turns. And this is the 4+ as, 4+ regen, 5+ ward guo. Bad luck sure, but these were only 20 skinks, you could bring 40 or 60 just as easily.

Lizzies don't need anything but basic core to deal with greater demons. And skinks are cheap enough to bring in hordes. (and then several more redundant hordes just to make sure)


GUO is easy to deal with.

Any static unit with good combat res will destroy him.

Empire swordsmen win by 3 on average. He only has 4 Ws4 attacks and so needs to be supported.... Then your looking at something like 1K worth of units.

That on the other hand is not so true. I found that the best way to use a GUO is by making him a level 4 and enjoy the fact that his toughness 6 and 10 wounds pretty much makes him immune to miscast results. Or in other words, I just throw 5 or 6 dice on plague wind continuously to get those IR's. Sure it miscasts occasionally but it's never lost me a guo and it more than makes up for the amount of t3 units that he's utterly destroyed with plaguewind. (which usually also gives me a few nurgling bases in the middle of his army, often near artillery)

He could also be packing the stream of corruption gift which will also do a nasty number on your swordsmen. Nobody steam powers their guo into combat, they're way too good at making a mess of low toughness models infantry at range while enjoying near invurnerability to damage. I fear poison blowpipes more than cannons on mine.

MarcoPollo
17-02-2009, 17:59
The keeper sounds like the hardest to pin down. He has such good movement and great builds that he can pick and chose his cicumstances quite easily.