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Max1mum
12-02-2009, 08:02
This topic is for those people who wish to endlessly debate the new imperial guard tank.

Rumour has it it will be armed with a heavy 20 strenght 5 ap - weapon.

Ad to that the potential 3 heavy bolterse and a pintle mount. And you have your self a mighty nice firebase, lets keep the discussion wether or not this thing is overpowered in here. Not anywhere else, especially not in the rumour thread.

Korras
12-02-2009, 08:13
BS3, thus statistically, half will hit. against a T4 model, 2/3rd will be wounded, so about 6. with basic orks, one would pass his saving throw (6+, right?), so you remove 5 models. space marines lose 2 models.

so that's not really effective. sure, you might be able to field 9 of those, getting 180 shots, but only half will hit, plus you lose your heavy artillery. also, I think I'd prefer to field regular russes over these, I think they'd hurt more. you'd get a blast, and AP.

onnotangu
12-02-2009, 08:14
it's going to be a bucnh of hellguns straped to a leman russ. what more do you need?

Rabid Bunny 666
12-02-2009, 08:15
It sounds fun as hell. You need to consider it will be throwing out a maximum of 29 S5 shots against ONE squad. Sure, that squad has a fair chance of being killed, the Punisher also will draw every AT gun on the table.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
12-02-2009, 08:17
You can't field 9, 5 perhaps and most likely only 3 max (sacrificing your heavy ordnance in the process) according to the rumours. And even if you could they are no more/less threatening overall than 3, 5 or 9 regular Leman Russes.

There's no debate about whether they are overpowered or not. There's just people on one side saying "wow 20 shots omg overpowered nerf" and exasperated people on the other side pointing out how it's not as good as some people are just automatically assuming. It's not a debate when the big people have to sit the special people on their naughty chairs and making them write "I will do some basic maths before I form an opinion" 50 times on a blackboard. And anyway, we don't know how much it costs.

Vote Kantor
12-02-2009, 10:48
Sounds cool, probly has a great model but yes (i checked the math (disbelieving that it was that crap)) and my god it actually sucks!?

Gensuke626
12-02-2009, 10:55
It'll be great at killing Grots and Guardsmen. And Kroot.

Really this thing is going to be ACE at killing Land Speeders and AV 10 Flyers in Apoc

Beyond that it's useless but has a frighteningly high volume of SHots...

Are we sure this shouldn't be an Ork Vehicle?

Chem-Dog
12-02-2009, 10:56
The first thing I thought when I read the "heavy 20 strenght 5 ap - weapon" was Tank Company.

I think I may have a problem :evilgrin:

cochise
12-02-2009, 11:26
You shouldnt guide yourself only by the average result the tank can score.
That 29 S5 shots will kill 3,2 marines per turn as an average. Not bad. A unit of caos chosen with 5 plasma rifles will kill 5,55 marines as average (rapid firing).


Are the chosen better at killing marines? No
1. Because throwing a larger number of dice means that the standard deviation of the results is smaller. So the Punisher will more often than not score the average result than the plasma rifles, which can fail miserably because of a pair of bad rolls.
2.While the 10 plasma shots can kill a maximum of 10 marines, 29 S5 shots have the probability of killing 29 marines. It shows that the potential damage of the tank is far superior to most weapons in the game.
2. The punisher will deal those kills irrespective of some game factors such as cover or range, which would reduce the plasma kills to an average of 2,77.

Thats why, IMO horde armies have always an edge over elite ones. Sure those guardsmen shoot only 3 S3 lasrifles at BS4 compared to the "powerfull" S4 BS4 space marine bolter. But at the end of the day, those 3 shots have a 0,16 probability of killing a space marine while the space marine has only a 0,11 of doing the same to one of his comrades. And the guards could in a good day kill 3 marines with those 3 shots, while the marine will always be caped with one kill.
As any ork knows, in this game, the more dice you throw the better.

Rick Blaine
12-02-2009, 11:50
Let me put it this way: If the Punisher is real, I'll start a Guard army. Quantity always beats quality.

laudarkul
12-02-2009, 11:55
Rumour has it it will be armed with a heavy 20 strenght 5 ap - weapon.
Ad to that the potential 3 heavy bolterse and a pintle mount. And you have your self a mighty nice firebase, lets keep the discussion wether or not this thing is overpowered in here. Not anywhere else, especially not in the rumour thread.

Right now this is just a rumour.
Overpowered in my opinion is if this gun has an AP value of 5 or 6. Even an AP value of 6 that's mean it is anti-something and those 20 shots at BS 3 sounds a little bit frightening.
Now if the lumbering/behemoth possible rule which will allow the IG tanks to move and fire all the weapon that means 20+9(HB, S5 Ap4)+3(HS, S4 Ap6 )=32 shots which at first sight sound overpowered, but the vast majority are Ap - and no one is Ap3 .
So the majority of the 40k players (which are SM and CSM) should not consider it overpowered.

Korras
12-02-2009, 12:04
either way.. I think the most powerful weapon this tank brings to the table, is Psychological Warfare. a lot of players will freak when they see the Heavy 20 part, and will pour fire into it, while your regular russes slowly trod forward to open up with their battlecanons. if you're lucky, he'll even try to evade them, so it'll be easier to get your opponent in the killing sac. ;)

Promethius
12-02-2009, 12:06
Actually it may just be the coolest mini in ages. A massive gatling! Awesome!

Griefbringer
12-02-2009, 12:12
Sounds like a plan to make players buy more dice...

Mannimarco
12-02-2009, 12:20
sounds like a beefed up exterminator with more shots and lower ap

Radium
12-02-2009, 12:25
Although it all sounds nice, I feel heavy 20 has no place in regular games of 40k. It's more a thing for apoc. The shots may not be that powerful or very accurate, it is still leagues away from what any other army can bring to the table.

Fixer
12-02-2009, 12:36
Hearing the numbers I thought this would be crazy at the start... but thinking about it this tank is only putting out slightly more damage than a full squad of shootaboyz, and it doesn't have a 2 wound powerklaw nob in it.

edit: Scratch that, 60 shoota shots will put out about 1.75 times the casualties of this vehicle.

Bunnahabhain
12-02-2009, 13:17
Lets compare this to another heavy support choice that throws out a hideous volume of shots. I know cross codex comparisons are not always useful, but bear with me....

The 3 scatter laser war walker squadron.

Pros:
Firepower has better S, better range, and better AP than most of the LRs shots, can scout move, less vulnerable in assualt, takes more than one shot to shake/kill, and gets Guided etc...
Cons.
180pts( IIRC), so probably a little more expensve, less armour, squadron rules, only 24 shots, not 29-32

Ok, they don't line up exactly, but both are heavy support choices that throw out huge volumes of fire, and are, ( or sound like they will be, depending on points etc) often ignored in favour of other HS choices.

If the Russ is Broken, then the War walkers should be way ahead of lash princes and 3++ storm shields in the volume of complaints they get.....

Bloodknight
12-02-2009, 15:20
Really this thing is going to be ACE at killing Land Speeders and AV 10 Flyers in Apoc

In Apoc maybe. The main problem with the gun vs light vehicles is that it is AP -. Let's say you hit that Landspeeder 10 times (average), and score 3 glancing/penetrating hits...you'd better hope for the penetrating hits because its glances are -3 on the table. It will rip a weapon off on a 6. Vs AV11 it's pretty much useless already.

loveless
12-02-2009, 15:25
Mmm...mini Vulcan Megabolter...*drool*

/Homer_Simpson


Seriously, though, big deal. 20 shots isn't that much - 29 isn't even that much when you add in the possible heavy bolters. It's the same as a decently equipped squad of...something. The lack of AP on the main gun is sort of a "meh". Frankly, I like it, and I'm betting it'll look sweet.

...Although, I saw the Stormlord and went "MUST HAVE". I'm a sucker for that sort of weapon...

Cane
12-02-2009, 15:50
If the Punisher can get a BS4 upgrade for a decent amount of points then it might be a tad OP'd. But we don't even know how much this variant costs.

Rydmend
12-02-2009, 15:57
If the tank has a point cost similar to the russ varients available now (between 120-170 points) The amount of damage ( it can do is on par, if not less, than units in a similar point range from other armies.

10x loota boys cost 150 points, on average that unit will produce 15 shots at s7 ap4.....this is a unit that has 10 wounds and can fight pretty well in CC if it had too.

2x eldar war warwalkers with 4 scatter lasers cost 120 points. They shoot 16 s6 ap6 shots....

A mildly upgraded flying hive tyrant for 160 points with twin linked devourers shoots 12 strength 5 shots with reroll to hit and to wound at bs 4. This unit has t6, 4 wounds and can pop any vehicle in CC.....

I rather fight a heavy 20 Russ that I could pop with one multi-melta shot.

jason_sation
12-02-2009, 16:08
Let me put it this way: If the Punisher is real, I'll start a Guard army. Quantity always beats quality.

If you feel that way, you should already be playing the guard!!! :p

As someone pointed out in the other thread, it does force a lot of saves from all members of the squad, so it is a chance to kill off that one guy in the squad that is bugging you, that you normally wouldn't be able to get with less shots from a more powerful gun. I guess all in all, I will still like the Main Battle Tank cannon better though.

Lord Cook
12-02-2009, 16:24
So the Punisher will more often than not score the average result...

This is a good point. The Punisher would be more reliable than alternatives, allowing you to plan how to use it more effectively.


While the 10 plasma shots can kill a maximum of 10 marines, 29 S5 shots have the probability of killing 29 marines.

This is not a good point. Maximum possible damage is thrown around on here all the time, and with this many shots, you said it yourself; the deviation is lower. Fifteen conscripts could kill an entire 30-strong mob of Orks with rapid fire, while ten tactical marines couldn't. Does that make the conscripts better? No of course not.

If you have a very small number of shots then 'maximum damage' does play a certain role, such as with anti-tank weapons. But with any kind of anti-infantry weapon?


Although it all sounds nice, I feel heavy 20 has no place in regular games of 40k. It's more a thing for apoc. The shots may not be that powerful or very accurate, it is still leagues away from what any other army can bring to the table.

As Rydmend said, what about Ork lootas, Eldar war walkers or Tyranid hive tyrants? This stuff already exists.

Radium
12-02-2009, 16:50
True, but none of those are mounted on an AV 14 platform. I don't mind lots of shots coming from something, just being both able to pour out an insane amount of shots while being nigh indestructible to at least some armies seems... wrong.
But this also depends on the points etc for this thing. For now I'll say it's just wrong.

Promethius
12-02-2009, 16:57
With a 24" range, it's going do be easy to stay out of it's range, and if it advances to look for targets it's going to expose that vulnerable side/rear armour. It's really not overbalanced.

Bunnahabhain
12-02-2009, 17:00
True, but none of those are mounted on an AV 14 platform. I don't mind lots of shots coming from something, just being both able to pour out an insane amount of shots while being nigh indestructible to at least some armies seems... wrong.
But this also depends on the points etc for this thing. For now I'll say it's just wrong.

Try rolling a shaken or weapon destroyed result on a Dakka-Tyrant. Try taking it out in CC. Now try the same things against the Russ.

The Lootas can sit at the back, in cover, with their long range, and hit almost anything, and still handle themselves in CC adequetly

The War walkers can scout move, and pour their fire on to a flank, and do so reliabley, and they won't fold instantly in CC

Every High rate of fire platform has it's advantages and disadvantages.

AdarII
12-02-2009, 17:19
2.While the 10 plasma shots can kill a maximum of 10 marines, 29 S5 shots have the probability of killing 29 marines. It shows that the potential damage of the tank is far superior to most weapons in the game.

The chance of killing 29 marines is (0.5^29) * (0.5^29) * ((1 / 3)^29) = 5.05526428 10-32.

Translated into less mathematical language. If you fire this tank every tenth second will it manage to kill 29 space marines once every 6272627950000000000000000 years (ie 6.27*10^24). As a comparasion, the sun is expected to start dying in 5 billion years (5 000 000 000 years).
This mean that your expected to spend a time equal to 1 254 525 billion times the life expecancy of the sun to succesfully kill 29 space marines with your Leman Russ punisher.

I might have screwed up the maths here so anyone checking it would be appreciated.

x-esiv-4c
12-02-2009, 17:24
Marines are toughness 5?

Bookwrak
12-02-2009, 17:35
While the 10 plasma shots can kill a maximum of 10 marines, 29 S5 shots have the probability of killing 29 marines. It shows that the potential damage of the tank is far superior to most weapons in the game.

It also has a much higher probability of killing no marines, so what's your point?

Bunnahabhain
12-02-2009, 17:42
The chance of killing 29 marines is (0.5^29) * (0.5^29) * ((1 / 3)^29) = 5.05526428 10-32.

Translated into less mathematical language. If you fire this tank every tenth second will it manage to kill 29 space marines once every 6272627950000000000000000 years (ie 6.27*10^24). As a comparasion, the sun is expected to start dying in 5 billion years (5 000 000 000 years).
This mean that your expected to spend a time equal to 1 254 525 billion times the life expecancy of the sun to succesfully kill 29 space marines with your Leman Russ punisher.

I might have screwed up the maths here so anyone checking it would be appreciated.


Yup, you made a mess of the maths.

P(29 KILLS FROM 29 SHOTS) (1/2 * 2/3 * 1/3) ^ 29 = 1.13 *10^-19
EDIT: for reference, chance of killing NO marines from 29 shots is 1 in 1462 ( P= 6.83 x10^4)

Also, how many marines can you have in a squad at most? I think it's 20. ( chaos, wolves BT?) Therefore killing 29 marines without being able to split fire is even less likely.

I suppose you could have a very odd arrangement, where the tank is able to tank shock 3 squads at once, all 3 sargents with power fists bounce off, and they can't run, so are destroyed, or doesn't that one work any more?

Lord Cook
12-02-2009, 17:45
True, but none of those are mounted on an AV 14 platform. I don't mind lots of shots coming from something, just being both able to pour out an insane amount of shots while being nigh indestructible to at least some armies seems... wrong.

No, alternatives just have T6, 4 wounds and a 2+ save. :eyebrows:

Toe Cutter
12-02-2009, 17:58
Are we sure this shouldn't be an Ork Vehicle?

It was. We looted it. REVENGE! AH HA HA HA HA! *cough* HA HA HA (you get the idea)


True, but none of those are mounted on an AV 14 platform. I don't mind lots of shots coming from something, just being both able to pour out an insane amount of shots while being nigh indestructible to at least some armies seems... wrong.

Nigh indestructable? I'm sorry what? Its weapons range is 24". This means that orks in trukks can actually drive up to it, leap out of their trukk and punch it to death from a starting point outside of its effective range. Next.



But this also depends on the points etc for this thing. For now I'll say it's just wrong.

Well I'll go on record right now as saying assault terminators with a 3+ invulnerable save against both shooting and assault based attacks is wrong. As is the idea of a chaplain special character with toughness 6 (seriously :wtf: ). Whole stonking great orders of wrong greater than a leman russ that can fire 29 shots at balistic skill 3 and no AP (EDIT: 20 shots have no AP, 9 of them have AP 4 :eek: actually I take it back - the 20 shots from the gatling aren't wrong but those heavy bolters are just far too powerful with such a nasty AP - please nerf). They're not even in the same galaxy of wrongness in fact.


2nd EDIT:

No, alternatives just have T6, 4 wounds and a 2+ save and an option to roll to regenerate wounds taken if its a carnifex.

Amended

maelstrom66669
12-02-2009, 18:02
I think its pretty neat, but I doubt it would kill too many marines, If it were Chaos Id definately take one. Im ridiculed for most of my army selections anyways...

Johnnyfrej
12-02-2009, 18:54
Good ol' Warseer, complaining about the cheesiness of a unit before it's even released :rolleyes:

Marneus Calgar
12-02-2009, 19:44
2.While the 10 plasma shots can kill a maximum of 10 marines, 29 S5 shots have the probability of killing 29 marines. It shows that the potential damage of the tank is far superior to most weapons in the game.




Alternatively, a Leman Russ Demolisher can kill 27 plague marines with one shot. Does this mean that the Leman Russ Demolisher is currently vastly overpowered and we should increase its points dramatically?

In my opinion, this tank is going to be much overrated, especially at the probable point price tag on it. There are better tanks which are rumored, such as the Manticore (Str10 AP4 1D3 pie plates anyone?), which people should be worried about.

Laser guided fanatic
12-02-2009, 19:48
Alternatively, a Leman Russ Demolisher can kill 27 plague marines with one shot. Does this mean that the Leman Russ Demolisher is currently vastly overpowered and we should increase its points dramatically?

In my opinion, this tank is going to be much overrated, especially at the probable point price tag on it. There are better tanks which are rumored, such as the Manticore (Str10 AP4 1D3 pie plates anyone?), which people should be worried about.

Yeh people seem to think that because a tank has 20 shots it will automatically be OP, i don't hear anyone complaining about the stormlord.

TheEndIsHere
12-02-2009, 19:48
Let me put it this way: If the Punisher is real, I'll start a Guard army. Quantity always beats quality.

Not true, Quality ALWAYS beats Quantity, the thing is,

Quantity had a quality of its own.

Ponder this...

-Œʼn

Khornies & milk
12-02-2009, 20:18
I'm going to get one just for the cool factor, and I believe it'll work ok trundling alongside a Demolisher as both have similar range Weaponry.

That will cause some psychological distress to my opponents, and take the heat off some of my less resilient units.

BS4...I could make it a Tank Ace in an AC list, or a HQ Command Tank in my AB list, so that would up it's kill ratio.

Hicks
12-02-2009, 21:09
It's not really that killy says mathammer and you need to roll two fist fulls of dice to use it, I say it fits the guard perfectly and no it isn't overpowered.

The Samaritan
12-02-2009, 21:41
if it looks good, I dont care either way!

cochise
12-02-2009, 22:36
I know I made to statements that seem contradictory. (average damage and potential damage in the first page).

But its something I see from my experience. I usually have very bad luck when rolling few dice. When I roll a ton of them together, I usually get the average roll. So, I like this kind of weapons/units.
On the other hand, my friends usually roll well above the average, so, if I see untis/weapons like this in front of me I start to sweat, as they will get a lot of wounds above the average numbers and that I will fail more saves that Im supposed to.

So, with my luck, I rather have this kind of weapon by my side than against me.

DarkMatter2
12-02-2009, 22:41
The whining about the Punisher is beyond silly at this point.

Its been demonstrated over and over and over again via Mathhammer that it isn't broken compared to the LRBT.

Its just a shallow reaction to seeing Heavy 20.

The Punisher is a pleasant suprise in this codex: characterful, interesting, and well balanced. It will probably look bitching as well.

Which is pretty much all I want from this codex.

Max1mum
13-02-2009, 18:42
Thank you everybody for keeping this in here instead of the rumour thread ;-),

i'm actualy suprised nobody is complaining about the s6 ap3 template's that ignore cover saves ;-).

tuebor
13-02-2009, 19:00
i'm actualy suprised nobody is complaining about the s6 ap3 template's that ignore cover saves ;-).

I think everyone is a bit less sure that the Colossus will actually exist.

PapaDoc
13-02-2009, 19:22
Oh my good you guys I just found this out. There is this tank in the IG codex that has an Str8 AP3 ordnance!!!!!!!!

It can autokill a lot of marines and it the ordnance template will be hitting about 6-7 orks a turn. I know a lot of people are going to say "you can space your horde" out. But this is hard when you have 120+ models.

This is totally unbalanced. What do you guys think?

BigBadBull
13-02-2009, 19:27
I put a possible pict of the LR Punisher up in the rumors thread. It is from the March 09 WD.

So far it looks like a 5 barreled gatling on the regular LR turret.

Mannimarco
13-02-2009, 19:27
thats the basic leman russ tank, the main tank of the guard

dang, ninjad, im refering to the pot above yours

Bekenel
13-02-2009, 19:59
That's also a joke post :p

I don't get this "Mathhammer means the Punisher will be bad". I've only seen people work out the maths for shooting against Marines, not Orks or Guard or Eldar or what have you. Considering how popular Orks are getting, and hopefully how popular Guard will get, I'd be interesting in seeing the numbers for those two armies.

Plus a Battlecannon works best against Marines out of cover - the Punisher will work the same regardless of what cover they're in.

Mannimarco
13-02-2009, 20:06
truth be told we dont really need the punisher, ive always had a soft spot for the exterminator (and ork/nid/guard) armies hate it, its pretty scary to marines as well

Johnnyfrej
13-02-2009, 20:33
i'm actualy suprised nobody is complaining about the s6 ap3 template's that ignore cover saves ;-).
You mean like the Land Raider Redeemer? ;)

Commodore Perry
13-02-2009, 20:43
Ifen they have Armoured Co rules. I wonder if you could put your commisar in the punisher to get the Ballistic Skill uptick.

Commadore Perry

Ranger S2H
13-02-2009, 21:36
overpowered or not, Id field just because its got a big gattling gun :D

Bunnahabhain
13-02-2009, 21:47
That's also a joke post :p

I don't get this "Mathhammer means the Punisher will be bad". I've only seen people work out the maths for shooting against Marines, not Orks or Guard or Eldar or what have you. Considering how popular Orks are getting, and hopefully how popular Guard will get, I'd be interesting in seeing the numbers for those two armies.

Plus a Battlecannon works best against Marines out of cover - the Punisher will work the same regardless of what cover they're in.

Actually, they have done it...

Fairly roughly...,assuming 20 S5 AP-, and 9 S5 AP4, at BS3, in the open.

GEQ T3 5+ ~ 9.3 kills
Eldar, fire warrior etc - t3, 4+ ~ 7.91 kills
Orks T4, 6+ ~ 8.55 kills
Basic gaunts~ 10.7 kills

Not awefully impressive, as a standard russ could reasonably expect to kill 6ish with the main gun anyway, and still performs against power armour, at longer range.

Killgore
13-02-2009, 22:42
i would use the punisher depending on the range of it and if the 'lumbering' LR rule is in the codex,

if it is short range then its got no hope of being in my list, ill stick with my Exterminator and basic russ's thanks :P

Bekenel
14-02-2009, 01:44
Actually, they have done it...

Fairly roughly...,assuming 20 S5 AP-, and 9 S5 AP4, at BS3, in the open.

GEQ T3 5+ ~ 9.3 kills
Eldar, fire warrior etc - t3, 4+ ~ 7.91 kills
Orks T4, 6+ ~ 8.55 kills
Basic gaunts~ 10.7 kills

Not awefully impressive, as a standard russ could reasonably expect to kill 6ish with the main gun anyway, and still performs against power armour, at longer range.

Well, I said that *I* hadn't seen the maths, not that it hadn't been done, but anyway ... it's not impressive that you've basically wiped out a Guard squad, ruined the effectiveness of almost every Eldar squad, taken nearly a 1/3 off a maxed out Ork squad and.. well I haven't seen a Tyranid player in so long that I don't know the average size for a squad of Gaunts. 16? So again, nearly the entire squad.

Also, out of interest, how does one Math-hammer a scattering weapon, or is it just done on the assumption that you've hit a clumped squad?

holmcross
14-02-2009, 06:04
Anyone care to post the math for a BS4 tyrant shooting his twin-linked devourers? (range 18", str 5 ap 5, 12 shots that reroll failed to wounds and misses)

T_55
14-02-2009, 06:26
Well i imagine it goes something like: 12 shots
about 11 hits with BS4

Against T4 you get about 8 wounds, so that's about 2 dead if you have a 3+ save.

You get about 10 wounds against T3 units, guardsmen will loose 10 guys in the open. You can figure out how many armor saves you should get and how many will die yourself with other values.

I think Bunnahabhain got it slightly wrong for the Punisher. 20 shots. 10 should hit with BS3. About 9 should wound T3 units. Against units with a 5+ save you loose 6. With a 4+ save you loose about 4.

holmcross
14-02-2009, 06:40
It seems like the firepower put out by the lr punisher is compriable to what a dakka flyrant can churn out. The thought of 'heavy 20' seems ridiculous at first glance, but as people have pointed out, there are things that can put out a similar amount of firepower already.

Sure, its probably going to be cheaper, but I think guard should get something like this.

Radium
14-02-2009, 07:12
Well i imagine it goes something like: 12 shots
about 11 hits with BS4

Against T4 you get about 8 wounds, so that's about 2 dead if you have a 3+ save.

You get about 10 wounds against T3 units, guardsmen will loose 10 guys in the open. You can figure out how many armor saves you should get and how many will die yourself with other values.

I think Bunnahabhain got it slightly wrong for the Punisher. 20 shots. 10 should hit with BS3. About 9 should wound T3 units. Against units with a 5+ save you loose 6. With a 4+ save you loose about 4.

Bunnahabhain's quite right, you forgot to factor in the heavy bolters. Those put quite a dent in anything except MEQ.

Marneus Calgar
14-02-2009, 07:53
Well, I said that *I* hadn't seen the maths, not that it hadn't been done, but anyway ... it's not impressive that you've basically wiped out a Guard squad, ruined the effectiveness of almost every Eldar squad, taken nearly a 1/3 off a maxed out Ork squad and.. well I haven't seen a Tyranid player in so long that I don't know the average size for a squad of Gaunts. 16? So again, nearly the entire squad.

Also, out of interest, how does one Math-hammer a scattering weapon, or is it just done on the assumption that you've hit a clumped squad?

Well we do not know that you cant fire your battlecannon with your defensive weapons, this would drastically affect the outcome of the situation. Considering that a LR with 3 heavy bolters is going to cost 180 points, one can assume that this might be a legitimate possibility. Also, the battlecannon is a world better at destroying vehicles, while the punisher can scare some armor 10 vehicles.

T_55
14-02-2009, 07:54
Actually Radium, the heavy bolters are reportedly a different weapon, with an AP value. You get more kills with heavy bolters then what Bunnahabhain writes.

Vote Kantor
14-02-2009, 08:16
1 thing, as it sucksso bad and (essentially) is a massive ASSAULT CANNON it should have rending!!

Maybe

StormWulfen
14-02-2009, 08:44
True, but none of those are mounted on an AV 14 platform.

LR crusader in rapid fire range is almost the same
2 hurricane bolter sponsons- 12 shots max
twin linked assault cannon- 4 shots
possible pintle storm bolter- 2 shots

so, 18 shots nearly there

then add the AV14 everywhere
and the probable terminators or veterans inside.

i would rather fight the russ any day

Max1mum
14-02-2009, 15:01
so, now that the full storm of punisher talk is over and done with ;-),

lets talk the real hurt :P, the Exterminator, heavy 3, s7 ap2 blast.

Ad to that the potential sponsen mounted plasma cannons and you got 5 ! s7 ap2 blast shots,

what do you guys think of that ?

Mannimarco
14-02-2009, 15:29
the exterminator has twin autocannons on top of it, not a heavy 3 s7 ap2 plast, your thinking of the executioner i think and even then its not heavy 3

Bloodknight
14-02-2009, 16:00
If I read the tank rumours correctly, the Executioner is not rumoured to fire blasts, but only 3 normal S7AP2 shots. In the cover edition, I'd rather have the Exterminator with one more shot and twinlinked main guns.

Mannimarco
14-02-2009, 16:13
it seems that even with these new tanks coming out the originals will stil be the favourite ones, 3 s7 ap2 shots? id rather take the demolisher

in the end we only need 4 tanks:

the armour buster: the demolisher
the jack of all trades: the leman russ
the anti horde: the exterminator and the hellhound

Bloodknight
14-02-2009, 16:23
plus Griffon. Short ranged indirect fire artillery (ie an indirect fire platform that actually can be fired more than once before the enemy is in minimum range, unlike the Basilisk).

I don't like the Colossus rumour for that reason, it makes both Basilisk and Griffon pretty obsolete unless the Griffon gets some obscene ammo rules.

Mannimarco
14-02-2009, 16:27
ah but remember the basilisk is dirt cheap, without the indirect fire its 100 or so points and now leman russes can be taken in squads so theres still plenty of space for other tanks in the heavy support section

i know we in the guard are supposed to be difined by our tanks but somtimes to much really is to much

Marneus Calgar
14-02-2009, 18:09
Sure, plenty of space in my FoC, but not points wise. Just because we have the option to take more tank does not mean that they are free. In my 1850 list I take three LR's and two hellhounds. If I could take more vehicles, this would put a strain on my objective taking ability.

sulla
14-02-2009, 20:05
it's going to be a bucnh of hellguns straped to a leman russ. what more do you need?

Har, har, har! The mental image...

Jackmojo
15-02-2009, 05:23
I'm liking the sound of the Punisher, not for what it can do to units (which has has been pointed out is not necessarily greater then the battlecannon on the normal Russ), but for what it can do to monstrous creatures such as lash princes and tyrants...an enemy type I've generaly felt the guard needed a few more solutions for.

Mathhammer vs lash prince
Punisher with 3 H. Bolters.
20 * 0.5 *0.5 * ~0.66 = 3.33 wounds
9 *0.5 *0.5 * ~0.66 = 1.5
net = one dead prince per turn on average, something the regular Russ cannot manage.

Jack

laudarkul
15-02-2009, 07:31
in the end we only need 4 tanks:

the armour buster: the demolisher
the jack of all trades: the leman russ
the anti horde: the exterminator and the hellhound

i woul add the LRV. If they keep the rules from the IA we have a tank who have a battle cannon/antitank cannon (str8 +2d6). Which is good versus some ugly enemy tanks imho.

Max1mum
15-02-2009, 09:59
If I read the tank rumours correctly, the Executioner is not rumoured to fire blasts, but only 3 normal S7AP2 shots. In the cover edition, I'd rather have the Exterminator with one more shot and twinlinked main guns.


I asumed it did, because it does. Afterall in those same rumours the Battle cannon and demolisher cannon don't fire blast either ;-).

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
15-02-2009, 10:16
Mathhammer vs lash prince
Punisher with 3 H. Bolters.
20 * 0.5 *0.5 * ~0.66 = 3.33 wounds
9 *0.5 *0.5 * ~0.66 = 1.5
net = one dead prince per turn on average, something the regular Russ cannot manage.

Jack

Your math is off.

20 shoots. 10 hit. 5 wounds. How the hell it's supposed to be 3.33 inflicted wounds ?

Max1mum
15-02-2009, 11:00
...after wounding you get your saving throws....

BramGaunt
15-02-2009, 11:04
Your math is off.

20 shoots. 10 hit. 5 wounds. How the hell it's supposed to be 3.33 inflicted wounds ?

Maybe he already "used" Armour Saves? No Idea what those Princes have, like 3+?

What we don't know is the Army surrounding the Punisher (and, of course, any other unit). We don't know if Officers maybe have options to increase The Values of a tank, like a bonus to hit rolls.

Standing alone, I'd say it's a nice option (and the model looks very fine too), though nothing will stop me fielding 6 Leman Russes and one Eradicator, for dug-in Marines on Mission Objectives.

kabum
15-02-2009, 12:06
Stadistically is not so good !!!
Teoretically is very nice, specially if you're lucky on the roll dice!!!
Watever the case wait to see the points and everything put together to see how it is.

Jackmojo
15-02-2009, 12:29
Maybe he already "used" Armour Saves? No Idea what those Princes have, like 3+?


Actually he's right my math was off, although not for the reason he thought (I think, I'm not positive what he thoguht my mistake was), I completely spaced out on demon princes having a 3+ armour save and was only accounting for the 5+ invulnerable.

The corrected math is slightly over 2 wounds from all guns(half what I accounted for in my prior post since the save is statistically twice as good) on average, not nearly as useful as I was hoping...oh well.

Jack

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
15-02-2009, 16:45
Actually he's right my math was off, although not for the reason he thought (I think, I'm not positive what he thoguht my mistake was), I completely spaced out on demon princes having a 3+ armour save and was only accounting for the 5+ invulnerable.

The corrected math is slightly over 2 wounds from all guns(half what I accounted for in my prior post since the save is statistically twice as good) on average, not nearly as useful as I was hoping...oh well.

Jack

Actually i knew the reason all the time. And correct number of wounds is about 2,4. More than slighly over 2 but it's not important anyway.

Ps. Your math was right about daemons DP.

Lord Cook
15-02-2009, 17:38
nothing will stop me fielding 6 Leman Russes and one Eradicator, for dug-in Marines on Mission Objectives.

The Eradicator only has (reportedly) Ap4, so what use would that be against marines in cover? Are you thinking of the rumoured Colossus, with Ap3 and 'ignores cover'?

The strength of the Punisher over a standard Leman Russ seems to be two fold. Firstly, if we assume that Ordnance will still prevent any other weapons from being fired (which I consider a safe assumption), then the Punisher Cannon will always be fired alongside hull and sponson weapons, probably three heavy bolters. Having 29 S5 shots with almost half at Ap4 will tear up light to medium infantry far more effectively than a battlecannon, but with shorter range. That's something none of the current MBT's can do very well, particularly if the target is so close you don't want to risk hitting your own men with ordnance. The hellhound can manage it, but if they're shortening the range of the inferno cannon down to 12" then even with the hellhound being made a Fast vehicle, we're going to need another vehicle to pick up the slack.

Secondly, as has been mentioned, 29 S5 shots will make a decent mess out of small monstrous creatures like Daemon Princes, who only have T5 and a 3+ save. That's something that just can't be done by ordnance, which can only ever inflict one wound on a single-model unit.

volair
15-02-2009, 17:50
There has been quite an uproar about the new imperial guard tank that can fire 29 or more strength 5 shots (heavy 20 gatling gun and three heavy bolters, and possibly a heavy stubber upgrade). I think people need to realize that this is probably going to be one of three leman russ variants that have an upgraded rear armor of 11, will probably cost 10-20pts more than the standard leman russ, and possibly will not be eligible to be fielded in "tank squadrons" of three (in other words you may only be able to play with 3). 29+ shots from a single tank sounds overpowered only until you actually start thinking about math and taking into account the cost of the vehicle and its BS of 3.

Brother Drakist
15-02-2009, 19:25
To be honest I do not get all of the hate towards this vehicle. Make it a target priority and it will go down like all other vehicles. I play Black Legion and this will be an issue for Daemon Princes, but their roll has been to take enemy fire off of my troops since we got into 5th edition. 29 shots at BS3 is not something I am worried about. People need to think how they will eliminate the threat tactically instead of immediately whining.

Ironmonger
15-02-2009, 20:45
Are we really still talking about maths?!

Little experiment:

20 dice rolled to hit: 12 hit
12 dice rolled to wound: 11 wound
11 dice rolled for MEQ save: 7 failed to save

7 marines bite it, and I was only rolling the supposed 20 shot 'Punisher Cannon' or whatever it's gonna be called. Maths only work in theory, standard deviations and skewing a sample population. I could have easily rolled 3 hits and no wounds.

estimates≠predictability.

Gensuke626
15-02-2009, 22:14
The punisher has the potential to kill 29 models per turn...but by the same token, it can easily not kill any. On average I'd say that it's right up there with a LRMBT when talking about Geq in cover (It might even be better), but against Meq you want something that's a bit stronger.

Pyriel
15-02-2009, 22:30
the true power of the punisher is the following:
1 punisher means "pfeew, its not that terrifying, especially since i'll concentrate my firepower there".
but... 3 punishers? 87 shots?(29x3)?thats a WHOLE dead unit per round. from... 500-600 points shooting at it.thats right-each round, one enemy unit bites the dust completely. and dont tell me 3xAV14 vehicles are easy to take down-cause with 3 of them, seeing side armour wont be easy...

i know you probably will need other russ variants too. i also know you can just take 2 leman russ punishers and 3 hellhounds(banewolfs AP3 is the most fearsome rumour imho) and then only worry about tanks cause not much infantry is gonna survive that.

Gensuke626
15-02-2009, 22:46
yeah, 3 punishers is only really going to scare Nids...especially if the current environment is any indicator of things (I see ALOT of mech armies of all flavors...if the trend towards Mechanized continues, then that S5 AP- barrage is mostly going to plink harmlessly against armored hulls.

vman
15-02-2009, 23:47
the low range of this weapon makes it pretty useless in my opinion

Treadhead_1st
16-02-2009, 00:15
yeah, 3 punishers is only really going to scare Nids...especially if the current environment is any indicator of things (I see ALOT of mech armies of all flavors...if the trend towards Mechanized continues, then that S5 AP- barrage is mostly going to plink harmlessly against armored hulls.

So we're writing off the Punisher because it can't take on a whole army on it's own?

I like it for the following reason:

Paired with 2 'standard Russes' it is a pretty fearsome stop-gap. You have the pie-plates to take on the MEq stuff, and the multi-shot gun to finish off units (that stray one or two who dodge the plate), plink away at Rhino side armour (or any tanks' rear for that matter, most are AV10), have a shot against any skimmer tanks (would be fairly useful against Devilfish and Serpents, not to mention AV10 walker squadrons) and the like. And is still very handy against Hordes at the same time (as a Guard and Tyranid player, loosing 10 guants/Guardsmen a turn is going to be pretty annoying in terms of my plans, as that's one less unit contesting an objective, shooting back or dieing bravely to keep the enemy away for a little longer).

And since when is forcing an extra 2 wounds on a Monstrous Creature (Daemon Prince of CSM) bearing down on your tanks a bad thing? I must have missed the memo where weakinging a unit in a single barrage of fire to the point where the Infantry/hull Lascannons of regular Russ can finish it off. Sure, I've spent more points killing it than it was worth, but I no longer have an MC running through my tanks/lines. That's worth splurging on.

Sure, it can't annihiliate a squad of Marines on it's own, but it's another AV14 platform for finishing units off and covering a few weaknesses of the MBT. Taking all 3 tanks is likely to cost 500-600 points and that means you've still got 1000 points of Infantry (well, depending on if you splash out on some Hellhound variants or not) to deal with the enemy armour. With the rumoured squad prices, it's a lot of lascannon.

Yes, the cannon is short ranged - but since you can hit the squads far away with a Pie-Plate or two before they advance into it's range, they're perfectly whittled down into "manageable" size, allowing the Russes to focus on other threats. If the enemy stays away due to the gun, then it means your Russes have a higher chance of living as the enemy isn't going to engage them in CC and can only compete in long-ranged duels with Missile Launchers/Lascannon and the equivalents.

Therefore, IMO, it's a pretty handy weapon when taken in combination with the template tanks. I hate how units are just written off because *on their own* they can't wipe out the enemy's army (it's still 1/2 a squad of Marines...excellent for making Combat Squads flee...or a full squad of Guardsmen/Eldar, that's pretty impressive given it isn't at the mercy of scatter). But then again I guess I'm about to be flammed for not hating it because "the mareenz live thru a single shootin phase! It Sux!" Contrary to popular belief, especially with the new Edition (and Ork codex) not everyone plays Marines these days (and the Guard codex can only increase the number of Non-Marine armies out there too).

However, I don't think a tripple-battery of them would work out, simply as you lack the ability to toast tough units at range that the other battle tanks provide (most notably the MBT) - as I said above, I'm highly tempted to opt for 2xMBT and 1xPunisher (minus the Sponsons though because they look ugly, sod the effectiveness) for the reasons I've outlined in my post.

tuebor
16-02-2009, 00:55
I could see the Punisher as a good wingman for a Demolisher. The Demo hits them hard, reducing their numbers and the Punisher finishes them off, much as Treadhead said. I know I'd be reluctant to be within 24" of a Demo/Punisher beat-stick.

Or perhaps a Punisher and a pair of Hellhounds, the Hounds rush up and decimate the squad, the Punisher finishes them off. Even if you don't completely destroy the enemy squad you should be able to pick out the anti-tank weapons that would threaten the Hounds with torrent of fire.

I do find it curious that the opinions on this board are almost always on the extreme about this, either that it's ridiculously overpowered or completely useless. I think it'll be a decent enough battering ram, complementing some of our other options quite nicely.

I'll definitely be using one. I currently use a Demolisher and a pair of Hellhounds to bully my opponents around, but the templates are of diminishing effectiveness as casualties mount. That guy with either a lascannon or meltagun always survives and manages to kill my Demolisher through a serious of ridiculously lucky rolls. Throw a Punisher into the mix and it becomes much, much more effective. Sure, it's a lot of points for all those tanks but most non-Russ options seem to be getting cheaper and I think it's worth it to make my enemy react to me, which is something of a luxury for the Guard.

Marneus Calgar
16-02-2009, 00:55
the true power of the punisher is the following:
1 punisher means "pfeew, its not that terrifying, especially since i'll concentrate my firepower there".
but... 3 punishers? 87 shots?(29x3)?thats a WHOLE dead unit per round. from... 500-600 points shooting at it.thats right-each round, one enemy unit bites the dust completely. and dont tell me 3xAV14 vehicles are easy to take down-cause with 3 of them, seeing side armour wont be easy...

i know you probably will need other russ variants too. i also know you can just take 2 leman russ punishers and 3 hellhounds(banewolfs AP3 is the most fearsome rumour imho) and then only worry about tanks cause not much infantry is gonna survive that.

I'm pretty sure 3 LRD can take out a squad of Space Marines/anything else (with some decent rolling) in a turn. Also, both of these tanks have a range of 24 inches. If all 3 are in range to one unit, there is a lot of room where the LRD/LRP are not, so that unit better be worth it.

Lord Cook
16-02-2009, 01:01
1xPunisher (minus the Sponsons though because they look ugly, sod the effectiveness) for the reasons I've outlined in my post.

I understand you said "sod the effectiveness", but given that you can fire the sponsons as well as the main gun, they're increasing your firepower by about 50%. For maybe 25 points... (assuming sponsons double in price, as per the current trend). Can't you just use the nicer looking sponsons from SM predator tanks?

Treadhead_1st
16-02-2009, 01:11
I understand you said "sod the effectiveness", but given that you can fire the sponsons as well as the main gun, they're increasing your firepower by about 50%. For maybe 25 points... (assuming sponsons double in price, as per the current trend). Can't you just use the nicer looking sponsons from SM predator tanks?

I really don't like the look of the silhouette of the tanks with clunky bitz on the side. However, I am thinking (if I do ever end up using one - I'm interested in what the other variants turn out to be, and what I can represent as WW2 German Armour - my armoured attachments are based on Rommel's European tank commands) then I might mount two "pintle" Heavy Bolters on the rear corners of the upper enigne housing (just behind the turret), fired by "riding" Infantry...like some Shermans did with .50cals in WW2, if you get what I mean, to benefit from the firepower without the ugly (and hope my opponents are OK with it).


I'm pretty sure 3 LRD can take out a squad of Space Marines/anything else (with some decent rolling) in a turn. Also, both of these tanks have a range of 24 inches. If all 3 are in range to one unit, there is a lot of room where the LRD/LRP are not, so that unit better be worth it.

This is why I'd advocate it as a "wingman" for a pair of standard Russes instead. They aren't going to slag Terminators etc (which is why you escort them with plasma-toting Infantry), but you have the far greater range to hit things from the outset, and the shorter-ranged (30" effective thanks to movement, that covers a fair amount of the board still) BS-based weaponry to finish off the stragglers that get through the blasts (and more reliably than a Battlecannon, since it won't scatter and the high number of shots makes it more likely to score the 'average' results).

I'm also pondering the idea of giving the thing Heavy Flamers (if they would still be an option). Tank Shock a unit (or drive very close), unleash 20shots, 3HB, 3HS and add a template to it all (in reverse order to maximise template casualties) - that should finish any 10-man unit off quite nicely (far more safely than a Russ/Demolisher thanks to no friendly scatter for the main weapon).

'Course, all this is based on the assumption that you won't be able to fire Ordnance+Other Guns, as that really would make the basic Russ far too powerful for under 200 points. I think it's a fairly safe assumption this restriction will be in place, and the "lumbering" rule is simply there to make taking things like 3xHB and Exterminators, Punishers etc a viable choice compared to the MBT.

Kalec
16-02-2009, 01:16
Actually i knew the reason all the time. And correct number of wounds is about 2,4. More than slighly over 2 but it's not important anyway.

Ps. Your math was right about daemons DP.

Unless he takes iron skin, of course.

What is even sadder is to run the numbers against T6 with a 2+ save. Looks like the executioner might have a use after all.

Gensuke626
16-02-2009, 01:33
So we're writing off the Punisher because it can't take on a whole army on it's own?
...
However, I don't think a tripple-battery of them would work out, simply as you lack the ability to toast tough units at range that the other battle tanks provide (most notably the MBT) - as I said above, I'm highly tempted to opt for 2xMBT and 1xPunisher (minus the Sponsons though because they look ugly, sod the effectiveness) for the reasons I've outlined in my post.

Can I point out that you spend most of the post telling me that I'm wrong, then insult me in a very sideways manner...then completely agree with me by the end of the post?

I was commenting on Pyriel's observation that 3 Punishers can put out 87 shots per turn, to which I said that firepower like that is only going to scare nids because it's Low S and AP - Which means it's next to useless against tanks.

You Yourself said that you would never take 3 of them. So what's with the inflammatory language? I never said that the punisher itself is completely useless, for the very reasons that you pointed out. And exactly like you, I think it Might be a good idea to take if you want variety and you have a pair of pie slingers to back it up.

Personally, I'm looking at doing 3 Executioners for a Ryza Themed Tech Guard army, and I really can't see myself using a punisher...If I want to roll that many dice, I'll stick to Orks, Danke.

cuda1179
16-02-2009, 06:32
Here is a little conversion I did about three years ago. It looks like it will now count as a punisher. Makes me rather happy.

zeep
16-02-2009, 19:33
Hmm, do we know if I.g. is getting an equivalent of Chronus?

volair
16-02-2009, 22:14
It is all about cost. A heavy 20 weapon for 200 points is no more efficient than a heavy 3 weapon for 30 points. If you consider the math, these Leman Russ Punishers will only be slightly more efficient than predator destructors in the new space marine codex, which is reasonable considering imperial guard are supposed to have better tanks. You people need to start thinking in terms of point cost proportioned efficiency.

Treadhead_1st
16-02-2009, 22:30
But we don't know the cost.

It could be a relatively cheap tank, at a 'mere' 150 points (current cost of Demolisher, fully tricked out at around 180 points), or it could be priced by one of the Forgeworld team and be nearer 180 points (so tricked out would be over 210). There's no Heavy 3 weapon on an AV14/13/11 platform for 30 points - the platform alone costs at least 100 points (based on Exterminator being 120 with TL-Autocannon, going on old VDR costs for weapons...and that's a basic Russ hull of 14/12/10).

Mind you, the high AV does something to enhance the value of the tank. Even if the weapon is only slightly more efficient than a Predator, it's on a far more armoured hull, making it more resilient and more efficient at retaining VPs/Killpoints than a Predator is (it's got at +1 on every facing of the Predator - including rear). That extra pip of AV makes it impossible to hurt with Frag Grenades and slightly harder for Kraks to hurt as well.

volair
16-02-2009, 22:49
But we don't know the cost.

It could be a relatively cheap tank, at a 'mere' 150 points (current cost of Demolisher, fully tricked out at around 180 points), or it could be priced by one of the Forgeworld team and be nearer 180 points (so tricked out would be over 210). There's no Heavy 3 weapon on an AV14/13/11 platform for 30 points - the platform alone costs at least 100 points (based on Exterminator being 120 with TL-Autocannon, going on old VDR costs for weapons...and that's a basic Russ hull of 14/12/10).

Mind you, the high AV does something to enhance the value of the tank. Even if the weapon is only slightly more efficient than a Predator, it's on a far more armoured hull, making it more resilient and more efficient at retaining VPs/Killpoints than a Predator is (it's got at +1 on every facing of the Predator - including rear). That extra pip of AV makes it impossible to hurt with Frag Grenades and slightly harder for Kraks to hurt as well.

The current Imperial Guard rumors are suggesting 180 points for the standard leman russ in the new codex, so the punisher variant may be 180, and if it is more or less it seems more likely to be more than 180 considering it has 11 rear armor. As far as there being no 30 point tank platform, you took my statement out of context; that statement was about offensive efficiency in a mathematical sense only.

Again you fail to relate power to the point cost. AV14 is of course better than AV13, cost being equal. But you could probably get two predator destructors for the cost of one leman russ punisher. Two tanks with av13 seems comparable to a single AV14 tank to me.

Treadhead_1st
16-02-2009, 23:39
EDIT:
I got "Ninja'd" by Lord Cook. Read what he said for a much simpler, cleaner-worded version of my post
END

Ok, purely mathematically it would compare - but what's the point in comparing it mathematically when no such unit exists?

Two AV13 tanks might match up, true, but then they'e 2 units (of 3 slots) and 2 Killpoints, compared to 1 (of 3) and 1 (respectively) - you can still take another 2 AV14 platforms (possibly 4 if rumours regarding a single squadron are correct) , but you can't take 6 AV13 ones as Space Marines. Whether you can afford the supporting tanks is a matter of your personal army list tastes, but in that regard the AV14 is better as you can have more of them (if you had the ability to take 6 Predator types things would be far more interesting, tank-battle wise, and would indeed make such a comparison worthy). My point for this paragraph is basically that although it may equate in effectiveness to two predators, whisch are slightly cheaper, you can take more of them/similar supporting variants than you can armour to complement the Predator, thus making it slightly more effective in my opinion (because I like my tanks and can always make room for them, and with the various rumoured drop in prices many Guard players should have the option of a fair amount of Infantry to back up the Tanks). Howeve,r if you only had the ability (for whatever reasons) in their respective forces to take 1 Punisher or 2 Predators (with no similar support) then I'd take the twin-Predators for the ability to split fire etc (and the fact I stand by my argument that the Punisher is to "finish off" units and harrass other, larger units.

Yeah, the 180 is the rumoured cost, as the rumours have the sponsons as being quite expensive, like the SM Predators (seems fair, as it keeps base cost down for those like me who like sponson-free vehicles, and having to price the vehicle fairly with the Lumbering rule)...but then the rumours also mention being able to take a 4th Heavy Bolter on the turret (something I really doubt) as a part of that 180 (depending on source).

I reckon the tank will be a little more costly than the basic Russ - how much so, I do not know. Currently we pay +10 points for an extra AVpoint on the sides and rear, but the new rumours have even the standard MBT as 13Side to begin with, so there might not be such a difference in price for just +1 on the rear (it might be the same - so you add armour and Str/AP to the cannon, but loose out on range - though I doubt this).

I feel the Punisher (rumoured rules) compares favourably to the new Tank variants. It's biggest competitor will be the Exterminator, with 4xTL shots. I don't think the Executioner is a contender - the Exec will be better against Monstrous Creatures and Terminators (assuming current Demolisher sponsons are available) but won't be as great against the horde-style troops, or those in cover. The Eradicator overcomes the problem of cover and strength, but it's still an Ord. blast as opposed to a BS-based weapon (which has it's own advantages, as previously mentioned). How it compares to the Fast Attack vehicles is going to be a real kicker, though like the Predator example slightly iffy due to the massive difference in armour (it's even more extreme than the Predator conundrum)

Lord Cook
16-02-2009, 23:43
You people need to start thinking in terms of point cost proportioned efficiency.

You need to stop assuming you've thought of something that the rest of us haven't. We know. We agree. But we don't know the cost yet, so talking about point cost efficiency is pointless.


That extra pip of AV makes it impossible to hurt with Frag Grenades and slightly harder for Kraks to hurt as well.

Considerably harder. With a vehicle happy to move and shoot all its weapons every turn, there's no incentive not to move at least 1" every turn. So it's 4's to hit with those Kraks and then 6's to penetrate. Even with a full ten-man unit you'd be lucky to get a single penetrating hit.


Again you fail to relate power to the point cost. AV14 is of course better than AV13, cost being equal. But you could probably get two predator destructors for the cost of one leman russ punisher. Two tanks with av13 seems comparable to a single AV14 tank to me.

You're simplifying it too much. Two predators would be superior to a punisher, you're right. But that fails to account for the fact that you can't get an equal number of points worth of predators as you can leman russ. So for example, if a LRBT costs 180 points then you can spend 540 points to buy three of them. But you can't buy 540 points worth of [cost efficient] predators, because you're still limited to three. Now the SM player has that spare ~240 points to buy something that will help to make his three predators a match for three LRBTs, without using heavy support. Maybe some land speeder typhoons, or whatever. But now he's using up Fast Attack slots like crazy as well. What happens when the Guard player adds a couple of these rumoured devildogs with fusion cannons? I'm sure attack bikes with multi-meltas would be more points efficient, but our SM player only has one or two FA slots free.

To summarise; there's points efficiency and there's FOC slot efficiency. Marines are pretty good at the former, with lots of medium strength units that are a bargain for points. But stuff like an LRBT is good at the latter, packing lots of combat power into FOC slots.

volair
17-02-2009, 00:34
You both brought up a good point that I will comment on and talk about more. Although 2 predator devastators are comparable to a single leman russ punisher, as you have said an imperial guard player can have at least 3 leman russ punishers, and a space marine player cannot keep adding more devastators to match, they have to stop at 3. So Imperial Guard basically have the option of paying twice as much and getting twice as much tank power on the table.

I can think of plenty of things space marines can do that imperial guard cannot with those points. For one thing Space Marines have exceptional elites: ironclads with dual heavy flamers in drop pods, sternguard with combi-meltas possibly in drop pods, and assault terminators that can deepstrike. Space marines can put a tremendous amount of points into these powerful units, so although imperial guard can put down more points for more tank power, space marines can put those same points into their spectacular elites section.

To reiterate concisely, Imperial Guard can spend more on tanks, Space marines can spend more on elites. Both are good uses for the points, but the races are different and emphasize different things, as it should be.

volair
17-02-2009, 00:39
You need to stop assuming you've thought of something that the rest of us haven't. We know. We agree. But we don't know the cost yet, so talking about point cost efficiency is pointless.

Many people apparently don't think in terms of math based points efficiency. If they did there would be no commotion about heavy 20; it would immediately be broken down in their minds into point cost normalized numbers rather than the number 20.




You're simplifying it too much. Two predators would be superior to a punisher, you're right. But that fails to account for the fact that you can't get an equal number of points worth of predators as you can leman russ. So for example, if a LRBT costs 180 points then you can spend 540 points to buy three of them. But you can't buy 540 points worth of [cost efficient] predators, because you're still limited to three. Now the SM player has that spare ~240 points to buy something that will help to make his three predators a match for three LRBTs, without using heavy support. Maybe some land speeder typhoons, or whatever. But now he's using up Fast Attack slots like crazy as well. What happens when the Guard player adds a couple of these rumoured devildogs with fusion cannons? I'm sure attack bikes with multi-meltas would be more points efficient, but our SM player only has one or two FA slots free.

So what if Space marines can't spend as many points on tanks, race diversity is a good thing. I am quite certain that imperial guard cannot spend nearly as many points on elites as space marines can on their assault terminators, etc...



To summarise; there's points efficiency and there's FOC slot efficiency. Marines are pretty good at the former, with lots of medium strength units that are a bargain for points. But stuff like an LRBT is good at the latter, packing lots of combat power into FOC slots.

Again, take a look at the elites section of the space marine codex.

Treadhead_1st
17-02-2009, 00:41
...yes

And that doesn't, therefore, mean the Punisher is bad (which is what your first post was implying, correct me if I'm wrong) as we have redundancy to back it up with more powerful weapons (and with cheaper Infantry still have the meat to take on/absorb the damage done by those Marine Elites).

Where the Guard nab the advantage, in terms of FOC efficiency, is that we can still have more scoring units in our Troops choice than any other army, even factoring in the amount spend on Tanks. A Marine army spending the equivalent on Predators/Terminators is going to have less Scoring Units thanks to the core being more expensive (especially if forced to fork out for Typhoons and so forth to combat our tanks).

FOC efficiency has a battlefield quality all of it's own. We can lay down more units (important for close-combat consolidation rules) and still afford the killy stuff. Yes, it's great for racial diversity. But it means we can take the Punisher to "finish off" units while normal MBTs to the "main killing" since we have the points to be able to (as we spend less in getting more scoring potential).

volair
17-02-2009, 00:51
...yes

And that doesn't, therefore, mean the Punisher is bad (which is what your first post was implying, correct me if I'm wrong) as we have redundancy to back it up with more powerful weapons (and with cheaper Infantry still have the meat to take on/absorb the damage done by those Marine Elites).

Where the Guard nab the advantage, in terms of FOC efficiency, is that we can still have more scoring units in our Troops choice than any other army, even factoring in the amount spend on Tanks. A Marine army spending the equivalent on Predators/Terminators is going to have less Scoring Units thanks to the core being more expensive (especially if forced to fork out for Typhoons and so forth to combat our tanks).

FOC efficiency has a battlefield quality all of it's own. We can lay down more units (important for close-combat consolidation rules) and still afford the killy stuff. Yes, it's great for racial diversity. But it means we can take the Punisher to "finish off" units while normal MBTs to the "main killing" since we have the points to be able to (as we spend less in getting more scoring potential).

Well no I actually think the Punisher is very good and the theme is awesome. In fact they are what made me decide to play imperial guard when the codex comes out. I was mostly making a counter arguement to people who think they are too powerful and/or absurd, and especially was directed at people who think heavy 20 is too much without taking into account the point cost of the vehicle.

I'm pretty sure that it is OK for game balance that imperial guard can spend more on tanks and space marines can spend more on elites. Imperial Guard may have more scoring units than space marines can ever field, but they also give up a tremendous amount of kill points and we don't yet know the significance of the new rules that will help to alleviate the KP issue for guard. The combat squad rule helps space marines to have more scoring units too.

Lord Cook
17-02-2009, 01:09
although imperial guard can put down more points for more tank power, space marines can put those same points into their spectacular elites section.

...the races are different and emphasize different things, as it should be.

Agreed on both counts.


Many people apparently don't think in terms of math based points efficiency. If they did there would be no commotion about heavy 20; it would immediately be broken down in their minds into point cost normalized numbers rather than the number 20.

That's an intellectual way of saying that "most people can't be bothered to spend five seconds on some very easy maths to discover that heavy 20 isn't the end of the world". Which of course I must agree with.


So what if Space marines can't spend as many points on tanks, race diversity is a good thing. I am quite certain that imperial guard cannot spend nearly as many points on elites as space marines can on their assault terminators, etc...

Of course. I'm not suggesting that Marines are in any way worse off than the Guard. I'm merely saying that while Marine tanks may be more cost effective, when considered in terms of a fully mechanized army, the Guard will be stronger because they have more powerful vehicles to fit into the same number of limited slots, and can still continue to add more and more (worthwhile) vehicles to use up the remaining points. At least that would seem to be the case judging by the current rumours...

Sarah S
17-02-2009, 01:49
How do they justify Heavy 20?

An Assault Cannon is already a high speed gatling cannon and it is Heavy 4. Does this new IG weapon really have 5 times the RPM of an Assault Cannon?

Lord Cook
17-02-2009, 02:06
Does this new IG weapon really have 5 times the RPM of an Assault Cannon?

The fact that the Assault Cannon is Rending suggests that it has a higher RoF. But the Punisher might easily have ten times the ammunition capacity. Terminators can't reload mid-battle, so presumably they preserve ammunition by not just holding down the trigger indefinitely until the barrels run dry. The LRBT turret also has a crewman whose sole job is reloading the main gun as fast as possible.

tuebor
17-02-2009, 02:14
How do they justify Heavy 20?

An Assault Cannon is already a high speed gatling cannon and it is Heavy 4. Does this new IG weapon really have 5 times the RPM of an Assault Cannon?

The number of shots a weapon fires in 40k doesn't necessarily equate to the rate of fire such a weapon would actually have. 40k is an extremely abstract system. The assault cannon would almost certainly have smaller caliber rounds, but its high rate of fire and possibly better quality ammo (depleted handwavium rounds or something) are what give it the higher strength, rending and much better AP than the rumoured Punisher cannon.

Sarah S
17-02-2009, 02:17
20/4 is pretty damn abstract for guns that will probably look pretty damn similar.

tuebor
17-02-2009, 02:32
20/4 is pretty damn abstract for guns that will probably look pretty damn similar.

No more abstract than a much smaller gun having higher strength, rending and much better AP.

Devil Tree
17-02-2009, 02:41
How do they justify Heavy 20?

An Assault Cannon is already a high speed gatling cannon and it is Heavy 4. Does this new IG weapon really have 5 times the RPM of an Assault Cannon?

It could if it worked like a gattling shotgun. That would also explain the lower strength and complete lack of AP. That Assault Cannon is made to fire accurate high velocity AP rounds. The Punisher could throw hundreds of small pellets with each turn of the barrels.

Also remember that Punisher Cannon is mounted on a huge freaking tank. So they would have more power (or shots) than Assault Cannons, which are small enough to be carried by Terminators.

Sarah S
17-02-2009, 05:23
Ok... How about it having 30% more shots than a Vulcan Mega Bolter?

It's silly and gimmicky.

Vaktathi
17-02-2009, 05:33
Ok... How about it having 30% more shots than a Vulcan Mega Bolter?

It's silly and gimmicky.

the VMB has an AP of 3, a greater range, and a higher S.


Honestly, the Heavy 20 for a main tank cannon at S5 AP- isn't as destructive as it sounds, especially with a BS of 3.

Against marines it averages 2 kills (or 1 terminator), against Orks, roughly 5-6. it's rumored to only have a 24" range, lacks any anti-vehicle capability, can't cause Instant Death to anything, and isn't ignoring armor saves.

all in all, if I were a marine player, I'd be a lot more afraid of a battlecannon.

Sarah S
17-02-2009, 05:41
It's not that destructive. I know it's not that destructive. That's why I haven't mentioned its destructive capability. The entire problem I have is with its rate of fire.

It's just too far out of line with the RPM of other weapons.

Jackmojo
17-02-2009, 05:41
It has as much firepower as a squad of firewarriors, (if we allow for trading AP for range)...call me when people are afraid of a single squad of fire warriors (let alone one which can be rendered inert with a single lascannon)...

Jack

P.S. To clarify, I like the tank and depending on its cost can definetly see a use for it.

Vaktathi
17-02-2009, 05:46
It's not that destructive, it's just too far out of line with the RPM of other weapons.

In terms of the raw # of shots, yes, but it lacks the special rules available to most other weapons. Assault cannons can potentially penetrate any vehicle and ignore any armor save and can be had on units that can Deep Strike, Scatterlasers are much smaller, plentiful on just about any platform in an Eldar army and have a longer range, Vulcan Mega Bolters have a longer range coupled with more strength and a higher AP, etc.

All it's got going for it is number of shots. While it's a lot for sure, it is very firmly an anti-horde vehicle. It's not shooting across the field, it's not rending and ignoring armor saves or taking out medium and heavy vehicles, and it's found on only one unit in the army that's generally going to be sitting in the deployment zone shooting at anything close, not appearing in the backfield or zipping around.

Nobody complains about rapid firing fire warriors, which is basically what this is.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-02-2009, 06:05
The Punisher is not very killy.* Heavy bolters aren't good at killing anything, much less heavy bolters without an AP value. I don't know what the fuss is about.


Although it all sounds nice, I feel heavy 20 has no place in regular games of 40k. It's more a thing for apoc. The shots may not be that powerful or very accurate, it is still leagues away from what any other army can bring to the table.

No, it is not. Other armies can churn out 20 S5, AP5 shots. Or 45 S7, AP4 shots at double the range.

* I realize this has been mentioned once or twice already...

feintstar
17-02-2009, 09:11
I reckon it isn't quite good enough to be honest. What it should be is Heavy 20, Pinning.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-02-2009, 09:51
and rending and poisoned!


the true power of the punisher is the following:[...] 87 shots?(29x3)?thats a WHOLE dead unit per round. from... 500-600 points shooting at it.thats right-each round, one enemy unit bites the dust completely.


You're joking, right? You must be because this is just silly. Many units can kill other units. A heavy flamer can kill a whole squad, a railgun can kill a whole tank, a unit of assault terminators can kill an enemy unit. That Flyrant or dakkafex or Marine unit or Ork mob is definitively a whole lot cheaper than 500-600 points, and yet *gasp* they can kill one enemy unit. Even lasguns can kill whole units. Fail that one break test and your unit might be out of action.

I was under the impression that this is why one even fields units most of the time, so what exactly is your problem with units that can kill units? :confused:



and dont tell me 3xAV14 vehicles are easy to take down


Three tanks are easy to tackle. These are tanks. MBT's. They want to shoot. They are not MC's (that function normally even when they have been wounded). They are not transports (that do not care whether they can shoot or not). Nearly every result - except for immobilized - means it won't shoot, or shoot but a couple of heavy bolters. You don't necessarily need a penning hit, and an 'explodes' result. All you need to do is roll on the damage table at all.

It is AV14 only against shooting. Put a powerklaw to it and it becomes twisted metal.


plink away at Rhino side armour (or any tanks' rear for that matter, most are AV10), have a shot against any skimmer tanks (would be fairly useful against Devilfish and Serpents, not to mention AV10 walker squadrons) and the like.

I generally agree with you but S5 vs AV11 isn't the best use of your firepower, and Serpents are immune to it unless you're shooting at rear armour (and if you know how to do that, please let me in on that secret!).

Ravening Wh0re
18-02-2009, 21:44
Sarah S isn't questioning the Punisher's effectiveness. Just the very strange rate of fire. Nothing else in the game (outside of Apocalypse) comes close to double digits of shots from ONE gun.
It just feels....odd. Like it doesn't belong in the game.
I'm not complaining about it, but to me it sticks out from all the rest

Pyriel
18-02-2009, 22:16
and rending and poisoned!



You're joking, right? You must be because this is just silly. Many units can kill other units. A heavy flamer can kill a whole squad, a railgun can kill a whole tank, a unit of assault terminators can kill an enemy unit. That Flyrant or dakkafex or Marine unit or Ork mob is definitively a whole lot cheaper than 500-600 points, and yet *gasp* they can kill one enemy unit. Even lasguns can kill whole units. Fail that one break test and your unit might be out of action.

I was under the impression that this is why one even fields units most of the time, so what exactly is your problem with units that can kill units? :confused:



Three tanks are easy to tackle. These are tanks. MBT's. They want to shoot. They are not MC's (that function normally even when they have been wounded). They are not transports (that do not care whether they can shoot or not). Nearly every result - except for immobilized - means it won't shoot, or shoot but a couple of heavy bolters. You don't necessarily need a penning hit, and an 'explodes' result. All you need to do is roll on the damage table at all.

It is AV14 only against shooting. Put a powerklaw to it and it becomes twisted metal.



I generally agree with you but S5 vs AV11 isn't the best use of your firepower, and Serpents are immune to it unless you're shooting at rear armour (and if you know how to do that, please let me in on that secret!).


You misunderstand; I am not saying that this tanks is overpowered. I am saying its a nice addition.

As for your "cant take down serpents" deal, i am generally of the opinion that it doesnt matter; as long as it is good in one role, it is useful. I prefer specialized units to generic ones, thats why Eldar were always so powerful;this "specialized" gig, though it doesnt work in real life, it works generally in gaming.

some units of your army will be pure anti-infantry, some will be pure anti-tank. thats the best way to do it imho.

volair
18-02-2009, 22:25
How do they justify Heavy 20?

An Assault Cannon is already a high speed gatling cannon and it is Heavy 4. Does this new IG weapon really have 5 times the RPM of an Assault Cannon?

Why do they have to justify it? The rules are an abstraction. Having a high number of shots is only one way to represent volume of fire.

Solar_Eclipse
18-02-2009, 22:46
The Leman Russ Punisher is quite an effective tank. Its quite reliable in that the amount of hits/wounds it causes can be at least predicted with averages.

Then you can see that it has the advantage over the Leman Russ that with a good amount of hits it can cause several wounds on a small amount of troops, so i find that the Punisher will probably be very effective against Eldar Aspect warriors, as well as the usual horde troops and such.

Toe Cutter
18-02-2009, 23:42
How do they justify Heavy 20?

An Assault Cannon is already a high speed gatling cannon and it is Heavy 4. Does this new IG weapon really have 5 times the RPM of an Assault Cannon?

Justify? :eyebrows:

Game in space. Big clunky oversized gloves and swords encased in 'sparky sparky fields' that can cut through armour like its not even there. Justifiable?

The justification runs essentially thusly; we want it in the game, therefore it is in the game. We being the game developers.

As has also been stated, you're being somewhat one dimensional in how you differentiate an assault cannon from a gatling cannon. Suffice it to say that perhaps they are examples of convergent evolution rather than divergent evolution. They appear to be based upon the same pattern and yet are not. The gatling cannon is not a larger version of the assault cannon. A squid eye is not just an upside down version of a human eye.

EDIT: Damn you Volair you tricksy ninja :)

Tsear
18-02-2009, 23:47
One dead gaunt/ork squad per turn. I'm hoping the 20 was a typo.

Marneus Calgar
18-02-2009, 23:56
Correction, less than 10 orks a turn dead, counting in the 3 heavy bolters, and no cover saves. With orks running around in a mob of 30, I think that my demolisher can accomplish nearly the same currently. The demolisher is still going to be a world better against tanks and heavy infantry.

Gensuke626
19-02-2009, 02:07
You misunderstand; I am not saying that this tanks is overpowered. I am saying its a nice addition.

As for your "cant take down serpents" deal, i am generally of the opinion that it doesnt matter; as long as it is good in one role, it is useful. I prefer specialized units to generic ones, thats why Eldar were always so powerful;this "specialized" gig, though it doesnt work in real life, it works generally in gaming.

some units of your army will be pure anti-infantry, some will be pure anti-tank. thats the best way to do it imho.

I think you misunderstand Solar Plexus. The impression that I got from his post is that the Punisher is so Underpowered that even taking 3 of them is a waste of points.

Personally I think having more than 1 is a waste of points unless you've got some kind of theme going. 2 of almost any other Russ plus the Punisher is not a bad combo, but maybe not the best.

I also think that anything that the Punisher is capable of doing, an Exterminator will probably do better...especially now that it's 2 Twinlinked Autocannons in the turret.

feintstar
19-02-2009, 02:20
I Don't think it is Gatling, regardless of what the model looks like. It is quite clearly a Metal Storm gun, thus crating its obscene ROF greater and far beyond the assault cannon.

Sarah S
19-02-2009, 03:30
That was the stupidest technology that never caught on.

Gensuke626
19-02-2009, 03:34
Wait wait...are we saying that Metal Storm was a bad Idea, or that it was stupid that we didn't use it?

volair
19-02-2009, 13:49
One dead gaunt/ork squad per turn. I'm hoping the 20 was a typo.

That is completely false. You do know that in 40k you have to roll to hit, roll to wound, and the enemy may get to roll armor or cover saves?

Malchek
19-02-2009, 14:31
Although it all sounds nice, I feel heavy 20 has no place in regular games of 40k. It's more a thing for apoc. The shots may not be that powerful or very accurate, it is still leagues away from what any other army can bring to the table.

That really is not true - take 3 eldar warwalkers all armed with 2 scatter lasers - that's 24 S6 shots - or take a unit of 10 lootas - possibly 30 s7 shots - so it's not that out of the ordinary.......

It's the first I've heard about this tank - if it's true it could be cool ;)

Solar_Eclipse
19-02-2009, 14:32
It's the first I've heard about this tank - if it's true it could be cool

Check the Guard Rumour Summary

Its True

Lord Raneus
19-02-2009, 15:17
I'd rather have a regular Russ, even though it does look cool.

EldarWolf
19-02-2009, 15:24
Also; the model shown is a conversion. Anybody who wants a punisher is going to have to wait for Forge World or make their own.

Now This with a vulcam machairius and a stormlord......:evilgrin:

Lord Solar Plexus
19-02-2009, 15:53
As for your "cant take down serpents" deal, i am generally of the opinion that it doesnt matter

The fact that it cannot take them down is indeed completely irrelevant. However, Treadhead_1st said that an S 5 gun would be "fairly useful" against Serpents, which have AV 12 except for the rear facing. I'm afraid I don't see how it would be useful against AV 12.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
19-02-2009, 18:02
Well I have two factors for why I'll be getting one if it proves to exsist in may, 1) it's going to look fun, and thats a key decesion in every Warhammer/40K figure I purchase and use. 2) my two main opponents use Horde Orks and Tyranids, can't really lose either way with a Heavy 20 Str 5 gun, even if it is AP - its gonna hurt. :)

pookie
20-02-2009, 10:40
Also; the model shown is a conversion. Anybody who wants a punisher is going to have to wait for Forge World or make their own.

Now This with a vulcam machairius and a stormlord......:evilgrin:

or wait till you see whast in the March edition of WD - check out Matt Hutsons SM/IG force for possible the 1st real pic of the Tank....