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Necromancy Black
12-02-2009, 09:35
Firstly, how do people think Blade of Realities should be handled in a challange for generating CR? Personally I think the same rules for KB would be the closest rules wise to the weapon.

Secondly, how would you play this with Banehead? Do you count the wounds for failing a leadership as wounds and thus double them for VR, or only double the wounds caused if the enemy in the challange passes all thier leadership?

Asmodiseus
12-02-2009, 11:30
I would play it exactly like killing blow

With the bane head, I would say any remaining wounds the character has would be doubled. So if he had 2 wounds left and you killed him with the Blade of realities (he failed his ldrship test) Each failed leadership would cause 4 wounds CR wise.

Neckutter
12-02-2009, 11:50
yeah it isnt unreasonable to use the KB rules, since basically the same thing happens except you dont even get wards saves. ouchie indeed.

with bane head it makes the remaining wounds doubled, so a hero with 2 wounds=4 wounds so.. that is one uber-dead dude in a challenge. i think an opponent might disagree about a rules issue here, because it could really swing the game balance(meaning the game you are playing, not the whole WHFB game system). for example you pick a WoC chaos sorcerer lord with bane head. your oldblood on cold one charges him at some point. you dont challenge, because he has to and you accept. you roll badly and you hit him once, he fails his pitiful Ld8 and you count as doing 6 wounds.

Necromancy Black
12-02-2009, 13:30
Cool, i was wondering what people's thought on the combo was, cause at 75 point there isn't much else to give an old-blood (unless he's not on a carnosaur, in which case the carnosaur pendent would do)

I couldn't find anything else similiar to the Blade cept KB.

Shamfrit
12-02-2009, 13:35
Are you dealing wounds?

No.

You're removing from play the model that failed the Leadership test - you do not get CR for it.

Neckutter
12-02-2009, 13:36
well KB doesnt say you do a wound either, it just says the model is slain. blade of realities says the same thing. since they have very similar descriptions, i dont see why they wouldnt work the same and that they will most likely be FAQ'd as such.

Necromancy Black
12-02-2009, 13:55
Exactly, I drew the connection as neither actually do any wounds, they simply slay or destroy the model in questions. KB most definitly gives CR so the Blade of REalities should do the same.

Asmodiseus
12-02-2009, 14:11
Aye the KB FAQ made it clear that when you remove a model from the table you are effectively doing enough wounds to it to kill it, so there is no reason at all why frost blade, Blade of Realities or any other magic item that insta kills things should behave any different.

Shamfrit
12-02-2009, 14:14
The mechanics for 'slain with no saves' is very different to 'slain by actually causing wounds' though, surely?

You don't enter the 'to wound' step, you don't roll to wound, or bring how many wounds the model targetted has into account.

Gazak Blacktoof
12-02-2009, 14:25
Shamfrit are you saying you wouldn't award any combat resolution for an auto-kill with the balde of realities?

I don't know how the two items interact as I don't have the lizardmen book but it seems unreasonable (and counter intuitive) to suggest no CR be awarded for killing a model.

Shamfrit
12-02-2009, 14:32
I was basing it on Rapier of Ecstacy, and the Skull Wand of Khaloth, and similar items, but, it depends on the exact wording of the Blade of Realities.

It's just my interpretation, I'm not stating it as fact, I am intrigued however.

Asmodiseus
12-02-2009, 15:52
Well I know the Frost Blade require you to wound the target so it should be no different than killing blow. Even though the BoR only requires you to hit, once you fail the ldrship test then I would consider that autowounding and inflicting Dx wounds where x is the remaining wounds on the model.

Asmodiseus
12-02-2009, 15:58
Also please note that according to the Vampire Count FAQ if a vampire with Frost Blade auto kills a character and the vampire has the redfury power then he gains a number of attacks equal to the remaining wounds on the character. So GW sees weapons that autowound as doing a number of wounds equal to a models remaining wounds, whether for CR or any other special ability that activates on wounds caused.

huitzilopochtli
12-02-2009, 16:08
The rules for Blade of Realities states that models hit must pass a leadership test or "be slain instantly. No armour..."

Killing Blow, if a model with this rule rolls a 6 when rolling to wound "he automatically slays his opponent. No armour saves..."

The rules are so similar I believe it should generate CR.

As for the Bane Head, it probably works the same way it did with the old piranha blade FAQ, and just adds a single wound. However, it probably needs an FAQ again.

Genrazn
12-02-2009, 18:49
What people should be worried about are Ogres and Troll and Minotaur armies heh...

Blade of Realities hits 4-5 times Like to see the CR score for that for 'wounds' caused hehe

Sarah S
12-02-2009, 19:02
Yes, of course it scores combat resolution equal to the number of wounds remaining. Anything else would simply be ridiculous in light of the recent FAQs.

Pantsless
12-02-2009, 20:01
I'd say it has CR. Why? Because after the tests are taken, they count as normal wounds any everything. So, I surmise that those wounds are causing the combat res, while the special ability of the Blade has killed the model outright, those wounds are still leftover, and therefore count towards the CR.

Wapniak
12-02-2009, 20:49
You get two or more hits with Blade of Realities. Then the hit model must pass a ld test. If it passes, then it must make a second ld test and so on. If it fails the first time it is immediately removed from the game (it dosen't roll a second time, because it is already removed from the game). Note that this is different from KB because 'to wound' rolls are made at the same time, while Ld test are not subject to the 'fast dice rolling'.

Thus if you win a challange due to 'blade of realities' you get no CR (strict RAW - you didn't cause any wounds) or get CR equal to the remaining W of the model (By logic).

[edit] Note that this is my opinion.

Colfax
12-02-2009, 21:43
Also with the BoR I would not do speed rolling and roll each attack one at a time.
Say you hit a model once and it passes its test but it wounds anyway and on your next hit he fails his test then misses with the rest of your attacks.

The end result ending with a completely different CR.

StarFyreXXX
12-02-2009, 22:17
ANother thing to ponder, everyone has stated that you can't use the doom and darkness spell at 3K with BoR, but D&D states that it modified LD rolls, NOT the LD stat.

This implies that it does work since you use the unmodified LD value for the roll, but then modify it from the spell...

how does that work into this?

SAnjay

Necromancy Black
12-02-2009, 22:55
As for the Bane Head, it probably works the same way it did with the old piranha blade FAQ, and just adds a single wound. However, it probably needs an FAQ again.

Never seen such an FAQ, where did you get this from?


As for the unmodified leadership and Doom and Darkness....I honestly think you have a point there.
Doom and Darkess most definitly says it's -3 to the test and not the leadership characteristic.

Problem is, by RAW this would mean whatever is rolled on the dice would be decreased by 3, and not the value of their leadership. This would make it easier for them to pass, not harder.

So no, to play Doom and Darkness as affecting the dice rolls, no the leadership would mean it makes leadership test's easier for the opponant to pass. The "-3 to any leadership-base test..." would have to apply to the units LD stat to have a ebnificial affect for the casting player.

StarFyreXXX
12-02-2009, 23:01
Does't the -3 imply a penalty...since aren't there other LD tests where the wording thus would make the spell a good thing to affect your units? which would be contradictory to the spell usage itself.

Sanjay

Rank&Foul
13-02-2009, 00:28
BoR can suck my shlong. At its point cost it makes Skulltaker look like a droopy-tittied daemonette. In hand to hand on a 4+ this baby will effortlessly slay a GUO, Kholek, the stupid DA lord, a chariot, a dragon... and award an obscene amount of CR.

For its point cost it is a god damned travesty.

Necromancy Black
13-02-2009, 00:37
BoR can suck my shlong. At its point cost it makes Skulltaker look like a droopy-tittied daemonette. In hand to hand on a 4+ this baby will effortlessly slay a GUO, Kholek, the stupid DA lord, a chariot, a dragon... and award an obscene amount of CR.

For its point cost it is a god damned travesty.

Because a single magic item is going to make all those armies drop from being top tier and very hard lined armies.


Also, the -3 might imply a penalty, but applying -3 to a leadership roll is a good thing. Hell, it's even better then cold-blooded in alot of cases!
It only works by apply -3 to the Ld stat, thus making it harder to pass the test, applying -3 to the roll makes it easier. Thus if you try telling oppanants that because the -3 is to the test and should be affected then they can simply turn around and say that -3 should make it easier for them.

Unforitinitly it doesn't say +3 to the Ld roll, which would make things alot clearer.

Another thing to be FAQ'd, but for now I don't see it working together.

Neckutter
13-02-2009, 01:39
blade of realities works off of your base leadership, meaning you dont get any bonuses(general's leadership) nor do you get any minuses.
thus a GUO still has Ld9, so you are fine.

Sarah S
13-02-2009, 05:45
Yes, the Blade of Realities specifically states "unmodified". And I sincerely doubt you can "modify" an "unmodified" roll.

Caine Mangakahia
13-02-2009, 06:05
well KB doesnt say you do a wound either, it just says the model is slain. blade of realities says the same thing. since they have very similar descriptions, i dont see why they wouldnt work the same and that they will most likely be FAQ'd as such.

Im pretty sure the rules for killing blow say that the model loses all remaing wounds, technically saying that the wounds are in fact caused. I've not come up against the BoR yet so I'm not sure what the description is for this item and if the same applies. BoR sounds like *$$ to come up against though.

Sarah S
13-02-2009, 06:27
Im pretty sure the rules for killing blow say that the model loses all remaing wounds, technically saying that the wounds are in fact caused. I've not come up against the BoR yet so I'm not sure what the description is for this item and if the same applies. BoR sounds like *$$ to come up against though.

Then you would be completely, totally and utterly wrong.

Please at least read the rules before entering into a rules discussion.

"I'm pretty sure" counts for nothing, especially when you are absolutely incorrect.

Necromancy Black
13-02-2009, 07:04
Then you would be completely, totally and utterly wrong.

Please at least read the rules before entering into a rules discussion.

"I'm pretty sure" counts for nothing, especially when you are absolutely incorrect.

Considering both Blade of Realities and Killing Blow say "The model is slain" you really are wrong.

Also BoR is a 75 point weapon. So you guy you'll be facing with it will either have this or a few other different pieces making him just as lethal a killing machine.

The lesson: Old-Bloods are awesome.

Sarah S
13-02-2009, 07:27
No I am not. Nowhere do either of them say "loses all remaing wounds."

GW had to clarify in a FAQ that Killing Blow scores combat resolution for the number of wounds the target had.
The rules for killing blow certainly do not "say that the model loses all remaing wounds."

Here, let me quote the entire rule for you:

Some warriors have honed the craft of killing into an art. Tales are told of master swordsmen who can decapitate a man with one stroke of their blade.

If a model with the killing blow special rule rolls a 6 when rolling to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent. No armour saves or regeneration saves are allowed against this wound, though ward saves can be taken as normal.

This attack is only effective against models with a unit strength of 2 or less. It can be used against characters mounted on chariots and characters mounted on monsters, as long as the riders themselves have a unit strength of 2 or less and only hits directed against the rider and not the mount/chariot will use the killing blow rule.

Rarely some models may have the ability of using the killing blow rule with ranged attacks (such as spells and missile weapons). When this is the case, it will be clearly specified in their special rules in the relevant Army book's entry.
Rulebook page 95

Even the FAQ answer that clarified this didn't directly say that the model "loses the wounds," but rather simply clarifies that you get combat resolution equal to the number of wounds that the character had:

Q. How do you calculate combat resolution when an enemy model with more than one wound remaining is killed via Killing Blow?

A. This scores you a combat resolution score equal to the remaining wounds of the model slain. For example if a Lord level character (W3 on the profile), which had previously suffered a wound during the game, is then killed with a killing blow, it counts as two wounds towards the combat resolution score.
Warhammer Rules FAQ Part 2

So please don't tell me that I am wrong when I am right.

This whole "model is slain" bit is exactly what GW had to clarify in that FAQ answer. They had to answer that question because Killing Blow DOESN'T say that the model loses its remaining wounds.

I have previously, in this thread, said to play the Blade of Realities the same as the Killing Blow FAQ answer, counting combat resolution for the remaining wounds, but nowhere in the rules does it say that either the Blade of Realities or Killing Blow actually inflicts those wounds.

Necromancy Black
13-02-2009, 07:32
Hahahaha, sorry Sarah S, I quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote the one above you and refer to your post in why "he really is wrong".

My post was agreeing with you fully, I just quoted the wrong text :D

Sarah S
13-02-2009, 07:33
:eek:

My apologies if I came across a bit strong.

:angel:

Neckutter
13-02-2009, 08:41
Then you would be completely, totally and utterly wrong.

Please at least read the rules before entering into a rules discussion.

"I'm pretty sure" counts for nothing, especially when you are absolutely incorrect.

remind me to be nice to you and grovel for forgiveness if i ever upset you.


sheesh!

Famder
13-02-2009, 09:42
Never seen such an FAQ, where did you get this from?


As for the unmodified leadership and Doom and Darkness....I honestly think you have a point there.
Doom and Darkess most definitly says it's -3 to the test and not the leadership characteristic.

Problem is, by RAW this would mean whatever is rolled on the dice would be decreased by 3, and not the value of their leadership. This would make it easier for them to pass, not harder.

So no, to play Doom and Darkness as affecting the dice rolls, no the leadership would mean it makes leadership test's easier for the opponant to pass. The "-3 to any leadership-base test..." would have to apply to the units LD stat to have a ebnificial affect for the casting player.

Everyone is hung up on the part of the BoR's rule that says "unmodified leadership" that they ignore the phrase right before it which says "on its own," making it say "on its own, unmodified leadership" which indicates the the concept of "unmodified leadership" is applied to characters who would otherwise provide leadership.

Neckutter
13-02-2009, 10:10
i dont think it works like that, i think it means on its own leadership, and you get no pluses or minuses.

for instance hitting a DE master(Ld9) who is 8" away from the DE dreadlord(Ld10), and the master's unit has the -3Ld doom and darkness spell on them. the blade of realities hits the DE master, and the master rolls 2d6 leadership test based on 9 leadership. 9 leadership being his own, unmodified leadership.

huitzilopochtli
13-02-2009, 11:19
Never seen such an FAQ, where did you get this from?

Ah, my apologies Necromancy Black. I am mistaken, it was a discussion here about the relationship between bane head and piranha blade. It didn't get FAQ'd, I imagined it.