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Plarzoid
13-02-2009, 01:55
Hey Warseer!!

I'm looking to start a fantasy army, but I can't choose between DE and Lizardmen. I need help!

I've looked through the first half dozen pages here, and read some on DE, and I've enjoyed reading the discussions about the new LM book.

I understand that DE core is amazing, and that LM are rather powerful in magic and that their core is somewhat strong as well.

I like the look of both armies equally, but I think the LM will be a cheaper army to build, being as they have more plastic than DE do (although I think DE usually requires less models).

Does anyone have suggestions as to which I should go with? I've borrowed both army books, and I'll be looking them over soon, but I wanted some compare & contrast between these two armies.

Thanks for your help,
-Plarzoid

sroblin
13-02-2009, 02:38
They're both varied and powerful lists.

I think the most importance question you should ask yourself is: would you enjoy painting tons of slender elegant elves, or hordes of brutish lizardmen? Do you want to paint dinosaurs, or do witch elves and hooked blades catch your fancy?

The list share a number of things in common: some very powerful beasties (hydras and stegadon), powerful mages (lizardmen have more diverse choices, Dark Elves have a more outright destructive lore), affordable flyer units (cheap harpies for dark elves, more deadly terradon riders for lizarden), deadly cold one cavalry for both armies as well.

Here are the major differences:
Lizardmens two most basic elements are very tough saurus warriors fielded in (surprisingly cost-effective) blocks, best with spears; and hordes of little skink skirmishers that pump out lots short range shooting at a good price. Kroxigors give them a troll-sized unit of large monsters that doesn't have an equivelent in the dark elf list; they also have two short-ranged dinosaur shooting units (Razordons and Salamanders) which are useful. Lizardmen saurus characters are beastly tough and strong in combat, and the slann mages have justified reputation for overwhelming magic.

Dark Elves, by contrast, tend field lots of fragile but agile low-toughness troops; spearmen blocks that are slightly above average at a bargain point-cost, repeater crossbowmen that can put out quite a hail of medium ranged shooting, and fast light cavalry that can still shoot a respectable number of shots. At the elite level, they can field a lot of units that are very deadly but are low in survivability;they basically depend on killing their enemies to minimize return attacks. This means they normally need the charge, but a unit of Blackguard can take a banner which ensures that they always strike first, making this particular unit more popular than the others. Dark Elf shades also happen to be possiblythe best scouts in the game and at a reasonable price. Dark Elf characters by themselves are unimpressive, but can take a number of stupidly low-priced magic items which are extremely effective in ensuring their survival or protecting against magic. They ca also field assassins that are hidden in units and are quite deadly, and a 'cauldron of blood' which can significantly increase the effectiveness of one infantry unit every turn. Overall, Dark Elves emphasize fast attack, their hatred makes them very deadly offensively but most of their infantry is fragile if it doesn't charge- they also can shoot more at long range when they combine repeater crossbows with bolt-thrower war machines.

In some ways, the toughness of the Saurus warriors may be more forgiving than learning to take full advantage of the mobility of the Dark Elves- on the other hand, the longer-ranged shooting of the Dark Elves is easier to employ than the short-ranged skink skirmishers (though the latter can be more terrifying at times!) But really, I think the trick is to find the kinds of units that appeal to you mechanically and aesthetically in each army, decide which army has more of the ones you'd rather be painting and playing with, and go with that.

Plarzoid
13-02-2009, 02:44
I'm beginning to lean towards Lizardmen. I think they may be a little more fun to paint (more colors really), and I think their lists can vary much more which means I could try different tactics with the same army.

Plus that Stegagon model is just cool...

-Plarz

Nicha11
13-02-2009, 02:57
Play both armies, write out some lists and then post them here for critique
and then take into account what others around you are playing.

ChaosVC
13-02-2009, 03:04
Actually, it comes down to whether you like to play with plastic dinosaur or or my little pony and friends gone bad. Both armies looks great in their own unique way painted nicely, so ask yourself, which army do you like too see everyday. Luckily, the good thing about your choices are that they are both kickass in their own unique way, erh...though Dark elf a little bit better at it.

Game wise, Dark elf has greater varity in tactics, they are pretty much jack of all trades, almost like empire but harder, faster and more specialise in hitting thanks to hatred, but also because of hatred, you have less control of your units because everytime you break your enemy you have to pursue.
None the less, Dark elf can dominate the shooting phase most of the time, they are fast and very manuverable and can be strong in both magic and combat. You can either built your army for full defensive tactics, total offensive, or simply a balance of both. Great synergy between units and magic items combo. Their only weakness is less amour and being only T3 which makes them rather frail.
But over all, easy learning curve and a great beginner's army. (unlike its 6th ed version :cries:)

Lizards on the other hand are more powerful in the magic department mainly because of the Slann and EOTG, with tougher and better armour and alot of high toughness units with the exception of skinks. Though they almost hit equally as hard on the charge in (in general terms, though I think some specialise Dark elves units are better), lizardman core fighting infantry are definately way better at taking charges for the obvious reason, and they are much more reliable at holding the line, making them the ideal anvils in most cases, being cold blooded and all. Giving saurus spears will make them meat grinding anvils, equally effective independently. Skink on the other hand are the support troops used for harrasment, baiting, screening and taking out larger less armoured foe with their poison missile, decent support troops...but lets not get into details. Overall, they can be quite flexible in terms of tactics, but against shootier armies, they have to move in to engage because of their shorter range missiles troopers, other than that, they are equally viable with defensive tactics.

All in all, Darkelves units work best as a team and relys more heavily on team work, but are much faster and manuverable with a longer range at a greater distance, while lizardman units can be tougher and more efficent independently, only slower and perform equally as good at a shorter range.

So which do you prefer? Fast and nimble or slow and steady?

ChaosVC
13-02-2009, 03:07
Oh man, someone already did a better advise post them me...blast!:skull:

Plarzoid
13-02-2009, 03:09
Both posts are good! I'd like as many view points as possible, so the more the merrier!

-Plarz

Stuffburger
13-02-2009, 03:45
I'd go with LM from a modeling point of view- you can do all sorts of crazy bright, clashy color schemes from unit to unit to keep it interesting, and the LM have a slightly better variety of models (different sizes and shapes of lizards vs. elves with different stuff- not too big a difference).

Also, to the best of my knowledge LM are rarer, player count wise, than DE, so you might be better served with LM to get something unique.

Note my avvy- I'm biased.

Plarzoid
13-02-2009, 03:53
I'd go with LM from a modeling point of view- you can do all sorts of crazy bright, clashy color schemes from unit to unit to keep it interesting, and the LM have a slightly better variety of models (different sizes and shapes of lizards vs. elves with different stuff- not too big a difference).

Also, to the best of my knowledge LM are rarer, player count wise, than DE, so you might be better served with LM to get something unique.

Note my avvy- I'm biased.

That's all very true. Do you think the new book and models would increase their popularity though?

-Plarz

Nicha11
13-02-2009, 04:46
That's all very true. Do you think the new book and models would increase their popularity though?

-Plarz

Whilst the new book is good, it isn't so over powered as to encourage WAAC players to converge on it.

In terms of how powerful the books are:

Dark Elves are part of the famous three, the other members being Deamons and Vampires.
These Three dominate all tournaments, this has caused alot of VC and DOC players to feel bad about their army. But Dark Elves aren't quite so bad, and if you refrain from takeing some of their truly hideous combinations you'll be fine.

Although the army list on its own is good, some of the units, monsters and item combinations are broken.

Lizardmen are a powerful army, but they will not be easily dominating tournaments like other armies.

From a fluff perspective you have to ask yourself whether you like playing the bad guy.

Dark Elves are the only truly evil army, in that their entire way of life revolves around inflicting pain and causing misery.

Lizardmen are the good guys in the sense that they are the force of order, but their thinking is not human (they are after all giant frogs).

If you want to ask any questions feel free to PM me.

Plarzoid
13-02-2009, 06:39
From a fluff perspective you have to ask yourself whether you like playing the bad guy.

Dark Elves are the only truly evil army, in that their entire way of life revolves around inflicting pain and causing misery.

Lizardmen are the good guys in the sense that they are the force of order, but their thinking is not human (they are after all giant frogs).

I hadn't really thought about that... I think that may be the deciding factor. I keep thinking about the two armies, and I continually go back to LM more than DE.

Thanks everyone for all your help, I think I'm going to go with Lizardmen!!

-Plarz

Nicha11
13-02-2009, 06:51
I hadn't really thought about that... I think that may be the deciding factor. I keep thinking about the two armies, and I continually go back to LM more than DE.

Thanks everyone for all your help, I think I'm going to go with Lizardmen!!

-Plarz

Good luck with your armies whichever ones you pick;)

Plarzoid
13-02-2009, 06:52
Good luck with your armies whichever ones you pick;)

Thanks! I'm looking forward to starting a Fantasy army!