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The Samaritan
13-02-2009, 04:35
really, I mean think about how you got started. You either a: randomly found it, or b: were introduced by a friend. I mean, GW's marketing seems to rely on word of mouth, and people being enthralled as they happen to walk by a games store. there really isn't any advertising... But because we love our plastic crack, we do much more than keep them afloat, we throw money at them until we can build a fort out of baneblade boxes :D
If you have comments or I am missing something then comment below.

Also, I gotta say, Dawn Of War WAS good advertising ;)

zedeyejoe
13-02-2009, 08:42
Word of mouth is the best advertising you can get as we all trust our friends.

IMHO there is a herd factor involved, once you get enough people playing then its no longer seen as geeky and becomes cool. Then people don't mind playing.

But its never going to be for everyone. Painting and game play all take an effort that some cannot manage/want to. Football is a much easier hobby, pay your money and watch someone else do the activity.

Osbad
13-02-2009, 11:33
GW's product is a very niche market. By which is meant 99.9% of the general population will never want to buy their product even if they are fully aware of it. Spending money telling people about a product that they are never going to buy is a complete waste of money. Which is why "intelligent" Google-ads based on customers browsing habits are sucking up an ever-larger slice of the advertising pie compared to broad-brush unfocussed mass-market advertising in magazines and newspapers.

GW acknowledge that their marketing is primarily word of mouth - based of friends recommendations. Their other main source of marketing is actually their stores. Their stores as a division barely makes a profit - and much less than their wholesale division does, but they see that as an investment in gaining new customers who would otherwise never understand what their product is about and will then go on to buy more from the interweb or indie retailers.

Splash advertsing, they believe, would not pay.

On the other hand, back in 2002 when Battle Games in Middle-earth was released and advertised on telly, it sold millions of copies to many people who were previously unaware of GW. So there is some evidence that broadcast advertising could work. Whether it would be a more effective use of money than putting the same amount into stores is moot though. There is some evidence to suggest that (say) TV marketing would just generate "fad" interest based on impulse sales, whereas interaction via stores produces customers who will stick around longer and buy more product.

Brother Loki
13-02-2009, 12:22
I definitely think there'd be a market for a 'Battle Games in the Far Future' style partwork sold via newsagents though. That would be a fantastic entry product for GW.

I've heard it said that BGiME was the biggest selling title DeAgostini have ever had, though I'm not sure where.

Michaelius
13-02-2009, 12:42
really, I mean think about how you got started. You either a: randomly found it, or b: were introduced by a friend. I mean, GW's marketing seems to rely on word of mouth, and people being enthralled as they happen to walk by a games store. there really isn't any advertising... But because we love our plastic crack, we do much more than keep them afloat, we throw money at them until we can build a fort out of baneblade boxes :D
If you have comments or I am missing something then comment below.

Also, I gotta say, Dawn Of War WAS good advertising ;)

That's how you advertise wargames - by being present in conventions, games shows etc.
GW is still miles ahead of any competitor thanks to computer games.

Griefbringer
13-02-2009, 13:01
Mass marketing is pricy and inefficient if you are having a niche market. Targeted promotion is always more efficient.

Mind it, GW has been moderately succesful in getting lots of independent retailers stocking their stuff around the world.

blongbling
13-02-2009, 14:25
GW has great promotional activity for a niche business which is very different from mass market advertising. Their big winners are their own stores, the largest selling toy soldier magazine in the world and the 2500 outlets stocking their stuff.......

Griefbringer
13-02-2009, 14:51
Could be pointed out that White Dwarf is decently available at magazine stands - I could get it from the local sub-urb hypermarket if I wanted to (OTOH, I can read it for free in a certain sub-urb library).

loveless
13-02-2009, 15:23
Dawn of War.
Age of Reckoning.
The Black Library.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.
Dark Heresy.

The actual plastic kits may only exist in Hobby Stores and online, but the five things listed above can be found at any old Best Buy or Barnes & Noble. GW's footprint is big enough to hit a lot of markets without much difficulty.

yabbadabba
13-02-2009, 16:30
It's an extremely successful model, that in a market that wouldn't keep a small developing country's tyrant in shoes, has proven to be resilient and flexible. The fact that GW are willing to take risks that many businesses would see as admittance of failure is also a good sign.

I might criticise them as a hobbyist but I cannot criticise their ability to keep going when so many others around them have failed.

olmsted
13-02-2009, 16:37
honestly though how would you really expect a radio or tv commerical

play some radio transmission froma doomed guard position as orks wash over them!

we must hold we need to make a 3 on our leadership! score! stand tall brothers dont let them wipe us out! Time to take the fight to them boys roll 6s!

The Samaritan
13-02-2009, 17:31
I know GW gets its stuff out through conventions and games stores and the like, but really, that wouldn't have done ANYTHING for me. I wasnt aware of GW or anything similar, and it was by luck that I happened to have a neighbor that had a cousin that was into it :p

Reinholt
13-02-2009, 17:38
Dawn of War.
Age of Reckoning.
The Black Library.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.
Dark Heresy.

Right, but are you arguing those have a positive or a negative impact on GW's image, given the quality of some of those products?

;)

Ahem. GW's marketing is actually decent in most places. I think the biggest flaw is not making better use of their retail chain in the US (a real back of the envelope estimate is that their failure to achieve any reasonable success in the US over the past ten years has probably cost them tens of millions of pounds they could have had), and poor communication about design intent and studio actions. GW has fallen into the bad habit of many tech companies, which is treating their customers like they are idiots; this usually fails in the end.

The Samaritan
13-02-2009, 19:16
loveless said that the fantasy roleplaying game, dark heresy, and the black library are good "advertisement", but not really, as basically only people aware of GW will know these things. You dont walk up to someone on the street and they just happen to know the black library :p

yabbadabba
13-02-2009, 19:21
loveless said that the fantasy roleplaying game, dark heresy, and the black library are good "advertisement", but not really, as basically only people aware of GW will know these things. You dont walk up to someone on the street and they just happen to know the black library :p

Disagree. The books appear in far more places than GW products will ever go. They are a good example of trailblazers than can turn a profit. Libraries, Schools, book shops the list goes on of where a GW book could be where a model might never be.

Also DH is a good example of advertising across niches. not all wargamers are RPGers and vice versa - just like not all wargamers have played with or owned a GW product. However there is a chance that a %age of RPGers might be tempted to try a tabletop wargame. If DH is profitable and brings 1 customer to GW it has been worth it.

The Samaritan
13-02-2009, 19:56
yes but RPG's aren't "advertising"
those who play rpg's PROBABLY already know about GW. both in the "nerd circle"

Bookwrak
13-02-2009, 20:43
So what? That's the niche you're trying to sell to, and if someone who previously only engaged in PnP games is exposed to DH or WHFRP and are intrigued enough that they decide that they want to check out the other GW games daiseikou. I was familiar with GW games for a decade before DoW and a thread about the minis in a video game forum I posted on got me interested enough to actually buy in. I now play multiple BFG, Epic, and 40K armies, so obviously that approach was a great success in making me a customer.

loveless
13-02-2009, 20:47
The Barnes & Noble by me typically has a Black Library stand sitting in it.
The RP books are in a relatively accessible place as well - just across from the Graphic Novels (which are more and more popular nowadays - and I don't mean Manga, I'm talking good stuff like Watchmen)
Dawn of War is a solid game, imo, and I've heard few complaints about WAR. WAR is one of the better looking MMOs out there, and most people seem to acknowledge that.

People may not know about the RPs (and who can blame them, really?).
People interested in fantasy and sci-fi will probably know about the Black Library.
Any PC Gamer worth their salt (i.e. not a shooter fanatic) will know about DoW and WAR.

Honestly, I think a lot more people are aware about GW then you might think.

The Samaritan
13-02-2009, 21:41
look guys im obviously no advertisement specialist :p
i just think its surprising hw well GW does especially through word of mout (and internet "mouth")

loveless
13-02-2009, 22:00
There are actually some studies out there that show that WoM advertising is incredibly effective - especially in today's Web 2.0-driven world.

Where do you go if you want to find out about something today? You go online and find a forum devoted to it, people's blogs about it, etc. etc.

GW's not stupid.
Their new website is set up like a store and has links from each product to relevant articles about them. People coming into the right age group to enjoy GW are driven more by pictures and links than they are by lists of text and static boxes.
They have a youtube channel to showcase upcoming products.
They create a monthly magazine that (despite many complaints about it and typographical errors within it) does an excellent job of showcasing their products, providing hobby tips, and giving a glimmer of insight into their inner workings.
They regularly mail out e-mails to people who sign up for them that disply advanced orders and upcoming products and events.

And all of these things are expanded out even more through internet forums, blogs, and links sent from friend-to-friend.

Hell, if GW adds a facebook page and sets up a Twitter, they'd get even more customers.

They're on the right track, and their new attitude is clear:
"We're not going to hold your hand, but we'll keep making you toys. Just go play and have fun!"

galad
14-02-2009, 08:26
GW needs to leverage more avertising for their miniatures from their video games. A broad market plays those games so they need to try to introduce that market to the minaitures and books.

Throw a 10 second commercial or splash screen that shows some miniatures when you load your game to get people intrigued. Then for the consoles have a option on the menu to view a commercial with links to the net, since all consoles are internet enablied now. Same with computer games.

I don't know excpet that I neversaw any mention of the miniatures game when i (briefly) played WAR.

qwertywraith
14-02-2009, 16:28
I'm surprised GW has it's own stores. It seems to make more sense to have independent retailers selling Warhammer next to all the other geek related materials. Then a group of D+D players or board gamers might be more inclined to pick up some models and start playing. I know I only started playing because a group of my friends (D+D nerds that we were) decided to play as a group.

One thing that bothers me about GW right now is the sheer magnitude of the investment involved in playing (not just in money, but time). Imagine miniature games didn't exist. So GW and a few other companies invent them. You go to a games show and you check out the booths for Warhammer, Warmachine, Flames of War, Infinity, Alkemy, etc.

What do they try to sell you? models you have to assemble and paint yourself. Fine, but to play Warhammer you need to spend $70 on the rulebook, plus $30 for the codex for your army, plus hundreds of dollars for a hundred or so miniatures, and your friend needs to pay $30 for his codex, plus hundreds of dollars and countless hours to assemble and paint it all.

Meanwhile, the other games sell you less models, and cheaper rules. Which would you and your friends pick to get into this hobby? The main reason new players pick up 40K or warhammer is because they can easily find opponents. That's how it is in my town: very few people play warmachine or other games. If more people played them, I would play them.

Finally, here are some old ads from Dragon Magazine:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3390/3278375361_89c179b788_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3308/3279198976_5a2d3a0c4f_o.jpg

VoidLord
14-02-2009, 17:27
When I attended college at Towson University just north of Baltimore Maryland here in the USA, they had TV commercials that were short 30 sec showing off pics on the Sci-fi network all the time. They were on at midnight to about 6am all the time. they were a little under budget for production value but they did advertise locally. I assume thats part of their plan to market in select metropolitan areas. Baltimore being their HQ, I could see them test it there. Anyone else seen these commercials?

dookie
14-02-2009, 17:35
I definitely think there'd be a market for a 'Battle Games in the Far Future' style partwork sold via newsagents though. That would be a fantastic entry product for GW.

I've heard it said that BGiME was the biggest selling title DeAgostini have ever had, though I'm not sure where.

Oh man, dont think so dude, could you imagine how many people that would bring into my local shop? it was always packed during BGIME and you could not get any time with a staff member to talk tactics and stuff.

I honestly dont think GW want that sort of thing, i've heard they would rather concentrate on showing off the hobby themselves and not giving into mass media advertising. Kinda goes with the niche market thing really, customer service first.

yabbadabba
14-02-2009, 18:34
I'm surprised GW has it's own stores. It seems to make more sense to have independent retailers selling Warhammer next to all the other geek related materials.

While it is a huge investment, their stores have been the cornerstone of their success. The reason why they did it, and it certainly has been proved in the UK, is that they felt they could sell and advertise their products better than an Indie.


What do they try to sell you? models you have to assemble and paint yourself. Fine, but to play Warhammer you need to spend $70 on the rulebook, plus $30 for the codex for your army, plus hundreds of dollars for a hundred or so miniatures, and your friend needs to pay $30 for his codex, plus hundreds of dollars and countless hours to assemble and paint it all.

You don't need all that. Black Reach and a paint set - say 65? Between 2 is 32.50. The preparation requires the same investment of time per figure for painting if they require painting. Then if you want to go further there is of course no upper limit to costs and you are being marketed to to buy up to 1500 points per army. I think that makes them competitive vs other wargames (see next)


The main reason new players pick up 40K or warhammer is because they can easily find opponents. That's how it is in my town: very few people play warmachine or other games. If more people played them, I would play them.]
And that is now the reason why they are still number 1. They are the most accessible wargame in the world. It's like sport. You might be a rabid curling fan, but if you want to almost guarantee a chance to play a physical sport in any country pick golf or football.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane with the adverts!

Corrode
14-02-2009, 18:44
What do they try to sell you? models you have to assemble and paint yourself. Fine, but to play Warhammer you need to spend $70 on the rulebook, plus $30 for the codex for your army, plus hundreds of dollars for a hundred or so miniatures, and your friend needs to pay $30 for his codex, plus hundreds of dollars and countless hours to assemble and paint it all.

Meanwhile, the other games sell you less models, and cheaper rules. Which would you and your friends pick to get into this hobby? The main reason new players pick up 40K or warhammer is because they can easily find opponents. That's how it is in my town: very few people play warmachine or other games. If more people played them, I would play them.

I still think this is a strong argument for promoting the Specialist Games more. Necromunda and Mordheim aren't even close to being the investment that the big games are, and would be an easy way to attract people on a small scale and then have them get into the bigger systems because they enjoy the background or what have you.

Sir_Turalyon
14-02-2009, 19:08
Throw a 10 second commercial or splash screen that shows some miniatures when you load your game to get people intrigued.

First Space Hulk smuggled minis into game very well - when arming your terminator squad, it was presented like assembling a miniature. When assault cannon was changed into lightning claws, animation showed assault cannon / power fist arms disappear along wiht shoulder pads, to be replaced with lightning claw arms.

zedeyejoe
15-02-2009, 12:35
I'm surprised GW has it's own stores. It seems to make more sense to have independent retailers selling Warhammer next to all the other geek related materials.

Reason is that indie stores may not be interested in promoting gaming. They could just take the money and say that is the end of it (along with all the other stuff they are selling).

I started gaming before GW and so am amazed at the number of people who game in GW stores. I think I have only done it 3 times.

Ward.
15-02-2009, 14:43
I don't know excpet that I neversaw any mention of the miniatures game when i (briefly) played WAR.
Really? there was a few articles on making terrain themed like WAR-zones on the front page of their site for a while.


honestly though how would you really expect a radio or tv commerical

Probably incredibly cheesey, 80s style adverts.

Shot wide angle, showing the nuclear family having dinner in the dining room (adjacent the kitchen) while the son plays wargames with his friends in the den/ living room.

Personally I've always thought the best form of "advertising" GW should look at is a cartoon of sorts (obviously not a Saturday morning, as that could damage the hobbies image in front of the more insecure and middle aged product users).
But an animated series (maybe in manga style) about an inquisitor or something, tearing ass across the galaxy for the adult swim audience.

Wintertooth
15-02-2009, 16:23
Meanwhile, the other games sell you less models, and cheaper rules. Which would you and your friends pick to get into this hobby?
GW. It was the mass battle aspect that drew me into the hobby. The demo with 200 figures on the table would draw me away from the one with 20 every time. Cost only really comes into it for me when the alternatives are directly comparable. Skirmish games don't compete directly with battle games any more than snowboarders consider skateboarding the same thing just cheaper.

The Samaritan
15-02-2009, 16:48
no matter what, we can all agree that we're glad GW DOES make it!!!

Grapeshot
15-02-2009, 16:55
I believe LOTR did well when the game was first released due to high awareness to mass market when the movies were running that few years back. If only Warhammer Fantasy/40K have their own high quality movies to showcase themselves to the world. At the moment, at least there is Warhammer Online that can reach out to a big audience.

WhiteKnight
15-02-2009, 17:03
At my GW, which is located in a mall, is always mistaken as a video game store. This either leads to people leaving or ending up getting into the hobby. No one ever like laughs or chuckles at us, they usually see like the 10-15 people and they think its not as geeky as it seems. I'm attempting at getting friends started to try to increase the amount of players at my gw. I almost got my friend to play necrons but his parents thought it would take up all of his time. But anyways, I think some kind of electronic advertising other than Dawn of War would be good. Maybe footage of a games day and then at the end, have all of the guys there do a Waagh! at the end.

yabbadabba
15-02-2009, 17:37
I believe LOTR did well when the game was first released due to high awareness to mass market when the movies were running that few years back. If only Warhammer Fantasy/40K have their own high quality movies to showcase themselves to the world. At the moment, at least there is Warhammer Online that can reach out to a big audience.

Considering how badly GW coped with the post LOTR fall out, would such a large exposure be a good idea?

Lord Humongous
15-02-2009, 17:57
yes but RPG's aren't "advertising"
those who play rpg's PROBABLY already know about GW. both in the "nerd circle"

Know of, likely, though it is far from a sure thing that they know them WELL. I know published RPG authors who have never played a single miniatures game.
There's also a pretty bit "snob factor" to overcome. RPG gamers see the worst side of minitures gamers (at stores with people acting like jerks, at cons where they compete for space and yell "Waggh", etc) and vice versa. They might be more willing tio cross over if they see the compnay makes products they would enjoy using, rather than ones that annoy them.

qwertywraith
15-02-2009, 19:01
I still think this is a strong argument for promoting the Specialist Games more. Necromunda and Mordheim aren't even close to being the investment that the big games are, and would be an easy way to attract people on a small scale and then have them get into the bigger systems because they enjoy the background or what have you.

/Agree wholeheartedly. I started with Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and Space Hulk. Later I played Mordheim and it re-energised my interest in miniature gaming.


GW. It was the mass battle aspect that drew me into the hobby. The demo with 200 figures on the table would draw me away from the one with 20 every time. Cost only really comes into it for me when the alternatives are directly comparable. Skirmish games don't compete directly with battle games any more than snowboarders consider skateboarding the same thing just cheaper.

Good point. Skirmish games appeal to me because I like smaller scale, more individualised combat, but 2 fully painted 2000 point fantasy armies squaring off is a sight to behold. The thing is though, there are STILL games that have this that are cheaper than Warhammer or 40K: Epic and Warmaster. Sure they don't necessarily look as impressive, but they do make for great battle games.

My point though was from an economic perspective (including cost in time) GW flagship games are huge investments. Yes it's a hobby and hobbies are expensive, but for the same price a new player of GW can play several factions of the competition.

I'm also pissed off how GW can't even paint its own models for its publications. They tell us: hey paint a huge army and play, while they photoshop extra models and continually reuse old ones. See page 223 of the BRB. Notice anything familiar about the 2 squads of marines (hint, they are identical models in different places). I'm also pretty sure the green and white stompa is photoshopped, not painted.

TheDarkDuke
15-02-2009, 19:45
Dawn of War.
Age of Reckoning.
The Black Library.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.
Dark Heresy.

The actual plastic kits may only exist in Hobby Stores and online, but the five things listed above can be found at any old Best Buy or Barnes & Noble. GW's footprint is big enough to hit a lot of markets without much difficulty.

Lets not forget, the 2 Xbox games they have released, the upcoming DoW2 or the two expansions to DoW itself. WD as mentioned being in large chain book/magazine stores as well.

Heck I know about 4 friends of mine that have no idea I still collect warhammer and they still know a fair amount about it as they collect or involved with other hobbies as well. Whether that is video games, pure modeling eg. planes and cars, into comics, any form of cards eg. magic or hockey, or like reading sci-fi with the novels released.

One might consider it word of mouth, but when that word of mouth is coming from as many large popular hobbies and activities its a form of advertising. How many people read books? play video games? comic collectors? modelers? Card collectors? Toy collectors? Read magazines? Enjoy art? Simply stumble upon something warhammer? Brought in by a friend? The answer is a ton.

The biggest thing to remember is that GW has branched itself off from being just a model/gaming hobby. They have branched off big time into print and into the entertainment industries and are doing very well in those departments.

The Samaritan
15-02-2009, 20:57
qwertywraith, you may be right about the photoshop :p

mattieice
16-02-2009, 04:22
For me it was Hero Quest by Milton Bradley that got my foot in the door for WHFB and Dawn of War finally proved to me that I could take 40k seriously enough to start playing it. The pictures of 2nd edition noise marines in my '97 catalog made me want to gag.

Pontiff
16-02-2009, 10:53
When i worked in GW UK marketing a few years back the company deliberately steered away from too much high profile advertising for fear of becoming 'the next big fad'.

The Lenton HQ is not a massive industrial operation (nor was wisbeach for plastics at the time) and there was genuine fear that too much exposure would generate a demand that they simply could not supply.


Considering companies like Hasbro couldn't make enough buzz lightyears for the xmas rush that time and also for those with long memeories the 'tracy island' incident, it was deemed prudent IIRC to have longevity of sales and not disappoint a mass audience.

Carlos
16-02-2009, 11:29
I believe LOTR did well when the game was first released due to high awareness to mass market when the movies were running that few years back. If only Warhammer Fantasy/40K have their own high quality movies to showcase themselves to the world. At the moment, at least there is Warhammer Online that can reach out to a big audience.

You can bet your right leg they have secured the rights to The Hobbit films as well.

GW should produce an in-house skirmish game for 40K and Fantasy, based around the way Necromunda used to work, but with small commando teams based on the existing armies as opposed to an entirely seperate system. It would mean more games in a smaller timescale, with more room to experiment with different armies.

zedeyejoe
16-02-2009, 12:40
Are you not thinking Combat Patrol?

Ward.
16-02-2009, 13:02
The Lenton HQ is not a massive industrial operation (nor was wisbeach for plastics at the time) and there was genuine fear that too much exposure would generate a demand that they simply could not supply.


Oh wow, that really shocked me.

Corrode
16-02-2009, 14:06
Are you not thinking Combat Patrol?

Combat Patrol isn't quite the same thing - last I checked it's basically '40k but really really small!' and still uses the various squad rules etc. I think Carlos was referring more to having a Necromunda-style skirmish game with individual models serving as the basis of the system and more in-depth combat rules.

Pontiff
16-02-2009, 18:02
We do that as house rules, come n guys you can do that yourselves really.

We do Rogue Trader era 40k feel with a mix of Necromunda rules and 2nd ed 40k with some bits form the latest edition.

We also prat about with other ideas like running the move and shooting phases in initiative order rather than ugoigo etc...

have a look here:
http://jerikoreach.blogspot.com/search/label/Campaign%20progress%20(in%20character)
And mostly read 'why we play'
http://jerikoreach.blogspot.com/search/label/Why%20We%20Play

yabbadabba
16-02-2009, 19:25
We do that as house rules, come n guys you can do that yourselves really.

Hurrah! Well said.

Killgore
16-02-2009, 19:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uozIWK51x58


would an advert like that work today? :P


I think GW has done really well with their marketing plan

GW stores in hi-vis areas (at least in the past), a widly circlulated magazine (which has been turned into a catalog which is more marketing) and plenty of word of mouth within friendship groups of GW's target audience


with the rumoured release of Space Hulk again i highly expect larger pictures of the game in catalogs such as Argos to encourage parents to buy it for their children looking for an alternative to current board games

decker_cky
16-02-2009, 20:12
As acknowledged, GW is a niche market. Their different divisions actually are an interesting market tool, since they each target different groups that might be interested in the gaming, rather than a more mass market appeal that would target just lots of people.

People interested in reading Sci-Fi and Fantasy will probably see the Black Library books that are carried in major chains. These books introduce people to the universe, and contain advertisements for warhammer and 40k, leading interested parties to potentially seek some more in depth information.

The video gaming market has exposure in those games, which I'm sure include some information on Warhammer to those customers, potentially gaining a few bodies there.

Add in the FFG license. FFG targets gamers, and has a solid following. Same as everything else, players are introduced to the universe and are linked back to the game.

Then you have GW rereleasing Space Hulk. How many times have you seen posted on warseer that someone was introduced to Games Workshop by Space Hulk, Hero Quest, or one of the other board games GW used to produce? I was introduced by Hero Quest, which didn't explicitly have that link, but when I was exposed to warhammer years later, I realised the connection and associated the fun I had with Hero Quest with Warhammer. This connection could have been done better, but the effect on me was still there.

And all these things combine and make people familiar with the concepts of the warhammer worlds. I think this part is done really well (though having an actual good website would go a long way to improving the connections and drawing people who investigate it further in).

Corrode
16-02-2009, 23:30
We do that as house rules, come n guys you can do that yourselves really.

We do Rogue Trader era 40k feel with a mix of Necromunda rules and 2nd ed 40k with some bits form the latest edition.

We also prat about with other ideas like running the move and shooting phases in initiative order rather than ugoigo etc...

have a look here:
http://jerikoreach.blogspot.com/search/label/Campaign%20progress%20(in%20character)
And mostly read 'why we play'
http://jerikoreach.blogspot.com/search/label/Why%20We%20Play

We're not talking about experienced gamers though, who can very easily house-rule everything into whatever form pleases them. For the average person looking for a gateway skirmish game that they can use their 1 squad of Tactical Marines for, saying 'hey you just need to learn which rules work and which ones don't and adapt a couple from this system' isn't gonna fly.

Pontiff
17-02-2009, 09:15
I dont agree, I started playing Rogue Trader at 13 and my friends and I made up rules all the time, binned the ones we didnt like etc.

Brother Loki
17-02-2009, 09:38
Was it your first exposure to any type of gaming though? That's what Space Crusade and Heroquest were for most people. Having something easily playable out of the box with minimal effort is surely a good thing?

Pontiff
17-02-2009, 10:18
Yep, got White Dwarf 106 off a mate at school and we then all bought rogue trader and boxs of plastic marines.

We made flyers and tanks from WWII plastic kits and painted everything with humbrol enamel :)

We didnt understand the 'to hit' roll bit for ages and made our own up. We also made up rules for being wounded before we found them in a previous WD and the compendium.

Guys are too spoon fed these days, everything has to be defined to the letter.

yabbadabba
17-02-2009, 14:06
Why are people hung up on a "gateway" game as a way of geeting into the hobby? Tosh I say!

Space Hulk/Heroquest/Space Crusade - all great games, all great for getting people to a GW or stockist or online to buy AoBR or BfSP. Absolutely no good as an introduction into GW's products. GW does tabletop wargames - how does a boardgame relate to that? It doesn't.

Why make a game with 10 marines for people to play, when you can make a game like AoBR and do the job so much better.

Pontiff
17-02-2009, 16:00
Aye we all bought space crusade when it came out and spent weeks playing it, great fun.

I dont think any of us linked it particularly to 40k in anything other than background though (a few minis found themselves enlisted into 40k armies but not many cos they were crap compared to the ones we already had).

To me a lot of this 'it must be an official GW product' rubbish is an over emphasis on tournament play.

A wargame should be fun and telling a story of heroism and action, you should be able to visualise that marine being blown apart by a plasma gun or that dreadnought shaking the ground as it stomps towards you.

If you spend too much time getting hung up on stuff it just becomes a maths exercise utilising lumps of lead and plastic.

Angry Lawyer
17-02-2009, 18:54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uozIWK51x58


would an advert like that work today? :P

Ah man, that advert used to terrify me as a kid.

-Angry Lawyer

Hrogoff the Destructor
17-02-2009, 19:28
really, I mean think about how you got started. You either a: randomly found it, or b: were introduced by a friend. I mean, GW's marketing seems to rely on word of mouth, and people being enthralled as they happen to walk by a games store. there really isn't any advertising... But because we love our plastic crack, we do much more than keep them afloat, we throw money at them until we can build a fort out of baneblade boxes :D
If you have comments or I am missing something then comment below.

Also, I gotta say, Dawn Of War WAS good advertising ;)

Dawn of War + word of mouth is how I got into the hobby. I got Dawn of War and one of my friends played it. He liked it so much he became obsessed and got into the hobby. It was only a matter of time before I got into 40k.

Jim
17-02-2009, 23:35
Hell, if GW adds a facebook page and sets up a Twitter, they'd get even more customers.



..They are way ahead of you!!!...at least the 'Eavy Metal team is anyway...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=549336317#/group.php?gid=10474880338&ref=mf

Jim

bolleblade
19-02-2009, 21:24
when all said and done it all seams to work for them and always have !in the early 90,s they had a really low turn over and now gw make over 100 million a year !same rules for ccg,s they never advertise just tell every 1 !!!lol

CushionRide
20-02-2009, 02:22
What suprises me about how GW is still doing as well as they do is......

increased model prices,
poor quality inspectors,
new additions
rediculously over prices and underquality modeling supplies(8$ for a half filled bottle of glue)(what happened to my freaking fleshwash!!!!!!!)
not finishing army books for one edition before making the next

thats just some of my wonders

yabbadabba
20-02-2009, 07:40
What suprises me about how GW is still doing as well as they do is......

increased model prices,
poor quality inspectors,
new additions
rediculously over prices and underquality modeling supplies(8$ for a half filled bottle of glue)(what happened to my freaking fleshwash!!!!!!!)
not finishing army books for one edition before making the next

thats just some of my wonders

If its that bad why are you still involved?

Earthbeard
21-02-2009, 13:25
If its that bad why are you still involved?

Don't try and reason with these people, that way leads to madness.

CushionRide
21-02-2009, 14:09
because ive found other avenues to make my model making more affordable ... and i DO enjoy the game...

i just find it irritating when you finally get used to a new rule system they change it, i dont like the fact that they do things like promote a dead race in a video game that you cant play anymore on tabletop cause the most recent codex is 3rd ed. i dont like looking at there modeling products and seeing that a half filled bottle of glue is 8 dollars when i can go to hobbylobby and get a bigger bottle of glue for 5$ or go to walmart and get AppleBarrel Colors that use the exact same type of water based acrilic paint that is only 47cents and you get 5times the amount of paint that you get in the 3$ games workshop bottles

dont get me wrong i love the game, i just hate alot of GW policies, and as the topic of this thread states, i just wonder how GW thinks there gonna stay afloat with they way they work things.

Captain Micha
21-02-2009, 14:41
Gw paint is far better than that crap you get at walmart or an art store for a dollar.

Trust me.

I've used Vallejo, Gw, and the cheap crap.

The cheap stuff is cheap for a reason. Hell half the time it's watered down to boot.

While I do agree, they have some seriously asinine policies, I do think people whine abit more than they should at times over some stupid things. (like their paint)

Problems with Gw consist of, overpriced minis and only getting more so. Even as demand is going down. (which to my knowledge works in the opposite of how successful business deals with decreasing sales)

Paying $25 for a glorified magazine? Either they really like soaking you for money, or they have the worst publisher ever. I can pick up Martial Power (which is a bigger book, actually is a hard cover, has a real spine and contains more info and more artwork) for $20.

Internetz phobic. They really need to come into the digital age and provide some kind of online service. Even if it's a pay for based web content service like DDI they need to do far more to get people wanting to play. I honestly think Warseer does more to sell models than they do.

Actually release all of the 40k race codexes before a new edition comes out. If this means cutting armies off the list so be it. (Be it the Different Paint Job Marines, Sisters of Battle, Inquisition or Dark Eldar.... I'd prefer them to cut the marines since their codex is so damned flexible.)

Corrode
21-02-2009, 14:49
Dark Eldar and Sisters aren't 'dead' races - their codices are still functional and can still produce competitive, powerful builds. You can very much play them on the tabletop.

Captain Micha
21-02-2009, 14:56
Dark Eldar and Sisters aren't 'dead' races - their codices are still functional and can still produce competitive, powerful builds. You can very much play them on the tabletop.

I think by Dead Race he means a whole whopping maybe 2 percent of the 40k population plays them, and they are only losing players not gaining them over all.

At least that's what I hope he means.

zedeyejoe
21-02-2009, 15:46
Problems with Gw consist of, overpriced minis and only getting more so. Even as demand is going down. (which to my knowledge works in the opposite of how successful business deals with decreasing sales)

Ah, perhaps you are thinking the WalMart method of running a business, pile it high and sell it cheap.

My family used to run a business in the UK selling plastic sheeting, everything from passport holders to plastic in cars. Our aim was to have a product no one else had and then sell it high. Something like the 528th largest business in the UK but the 25th most profitable.

Wargames figures are not going to be wanted by everyone and some of those that want them will pay insane prices for them - the GW approach.

Vic
21-02-2009, 15:58
Paint wise, for price and coverage, nothing beats Delta Ceramacoat and Ive tried Delta, Valejo, GW, Apple Barrel and Anita's acrylics. I then like vallejo and GW paints in that order. The apple barrel paints Wallyworld sells IMO are horrible and Anita's isnt too far behind. The pigment is light, the paint watered down to the point where you have to go with several coats to get the same type of coverage. Apple and Anita's are decent on wood though, as I dont like to use my more expensive paints on those. I do like GW's inks, and metalics over anyone elses, they are just right for my uses. My only gripes with GW's paints are the price and the miniscule amount you get (anyone remember the decent sized old clear/white flip top lids?). Valejo has small bottles too, but you can thin the paint and get it to go further, same with Delta.

Anyway, to each his own.....

yabbadabba
21-02-2009, 17:40
i dont like looking at there modeling products and seeing that a half filled bottle of glue is 8 dollars when i can go to hobbylobby and get a bigger bottle of glue for 5$ or go to walmart and get AppleBarrel Colors that use the exact same type of water based acrilic paint that is only 47cents and you get 5times the amount of paint that you get in the 3$ games workshop bottles.

This is easy to fix. The reason is because GW doesn't make these products, and order them in as seen in the store (minus packaging I assume). Even buying in at the quantity they do (which is nowhere near the volumes that Walmart, or repackagers will), they are still going to have to sell at a higher price for a smaller amount of product to make the profit margin required.

Walmart are great for customers but a scourge on this earth for suppliers. I wouldn't use them as a comparison even if they sponsored me to do so.

zedeyejoe
21-02-2009, 18:29
(anyone remember the decent sized old clear/white flip top lids?)

Yes and I continue to use them. Now sold as Coat D'Arms (so search and ye shall find). Same paint, now sold direct to us the public and sooo much cheaper, hurrah.

Vic
21-02-2009, 20:46
Really? Might you know who carries them in the states then?

Crazy Harborc
21-02-2009, 21:40
The good old days of "needing" to use GW's brand named paints to get the correct colours/shades results are gone. Want good glue that really fuses the plastic parts? In the USA it's called Testor's brands of plastic cements there is a selection of containers and versions to choose from.;)

I am not anti-GW. I am pro-saving money when I can and do get the same or better quality. GW does make good minies and does publish decent sets of rules and the needed suppliments.

GW has been selling non-GW made accessories (tools, terrain pieces, paints, glues etc) for decades. Considering some of the prices GW charged, GW had bought the stuff at full price and marked it up 40% when GW put it's brand/logo on the stuff.

GW great minies, good rules......top of the line prices. But then so are the three non-GW rules and suppliments. The minies I need and use for the non-GW rules are great minies and WAY cheaper.

zedeyejoe
21-02-2009, 22:06
Really? Might you know who carries them in the states then?

Brookhurst hobbies, took about 10 minutes to find out because of course I am in UK so don't need to know who the US suppliers are. As you can see, they are the old GW paints

http://www.brookhursthobbies.com/INDEXtest.HTM

currently on sale at a dollar a bottle.

Who will be the ones in the future I don't know. Not well marketed I can see, as few people seem to know of their existence on the other side of the pond. And of course you can always buy on the net and have them delivered from UK.

Hang on, found the new guys, Scale Creep Miniatures

http://www.scalecreep.com/catalog/

there you go.



Considering some of the prices GW charged, GW had bought the stuff at full price and marked it up 40% when GW put it's brand/logo on the stuff.

You can be sure that they did not pay full price. The magic percentage I have heard is 67%. So spend 15 whatevers and the contribution is 10. I was offered a deal to supply transfers to people who had come out of the GW stable and was offered that deal (33% of retail price for my product) and I had to get the transfers made at that price. Just not a winning idea for me as a supplier.

Corrode
22-02-2009, 00:18
I think by Dead Race he means a whole whopping maybe 2 percent of the 40k population plays them, and they are only losing players not gaining them over all.

At least that's what I hope he means.

Read what he wrote. He specifically mentioned hat you 'can't play it any more on the tabletop'. Either he means that they're totally uncompetitive and can't be played, or he believes that because of the 3rd edition codex you aren't "allowed" to play them. Whichever way, it's wrong.

Reinholt
22-02-2009, 00:35
Read what he wrote. He specifically mentioned hat you 'can't play it any more on the tabletop'. Either he means that they're totally uncompetitive and can't be played, or he believes that because of the 3rd edition codex you aren't "allowed" to play them. Whichever way, it's wrong.

Regardless of the poor phrasing, I think it's a point well taken; I know two people who played Dark Eldar that quit the game because things kept moving and nothing changed for them in nearly a decade.

Supporting the armies GW currently has well with each edition would go a long way to two things:

1 - Keeping current players in the game who play these armies.

2 - Expanding sales through new players being attracted to such armies or through current players starting new armies.

So I think it's a legitimate critique.

Kalec
23-02-2009, 04:38
GW would love to update each army for every edition. They would. But they aren't big enough. For just 40K or just Fantasy, GW could probably swing it. For 40K and Fantasy and LOTR? Not a chance. After all, supporting their armies only helps them. If they could, they would.

CushionRide
23-02-2009, 06:08
well as far as the cheap AppleBarrel Paint being crap, ill just point out that in my personal experience i have noticed very little difference between the quality or texture between that and the GW paint as i have used them both. so i would rather pay 47cents vs 3 dollars and get 4x the paint to boot ^_^ there really isnt any comparison.

as for model prices.... well ive done some looking, and the nearest scale models that i can figure that would be close enough to GW models would be about 1/35th scale, unless there is a scale more exact. in my research ive noticed that most model tanks in this scale, to compare against GW are running about the same price, so i guess i cant really complain there

as for the dark eldar being a dead army, can you even buy models for them anymore??? i havent seen dark eldar in my local store since they were in the main box set. and as for them being playable to current rules. sorry to say this but if you think that codex is still usable, YOU ARE WRONG. the current armies, even the 4th ed codex's have all been updated enough to the current rule books, and use universal special rules to make it easier for players to condend with. the Dark Eldar still use archaic versions of some of these rules, for example, hidden deployment. the DE have a person that uses hidden deployment. in 3rd edition you could place your model secretly anwhere you want. that is not the case now. Kroot Stalkers in 3rd had the same rule. the 3rd ed codex for tyranid allowed Lictors to Hidden deploy the same way as the DE charachter. Now the Tyranid 4th ed codex states that Hidden deployment allows you to deploy via deep strike, said charachter in to difficult terrain, and may drift anywhere by way of scatter dice inside that terrain, but cannot drift out. both armies state these abilities are hidden deployment. i believe the newest version of hidden Deployment is correct. i had an issue with a local player who has a DE army, and because of rules like this, and the fact that there are no known errata on these issues he no longer plays the army. This is why i call Dark Eldar a dead race. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN UPDATED IN 2 EDITIONS NOW

as for Sisters of battle..... guys im not a noob, ive seen the Inquisition books, i know the Sisters are around, but instead of Dark eldar for dawn of war it should have been Tyranids, pure and simple. (and before you guys say that the game engine couldnt handle nids i have one word for you, ZERG :p)

and as for GW not updating for each edition.....i dont believe that statement of if they could they would, so far ive seen each edition last for about 5-7 years or so. are you telling me they cant come up with new rule books for at least the main armies first before the next edition? come on.... if you think about it if you take out the specific chapter books of space marines and leave out deamonhunters and inquisition, you have about 7-8 armies that i can think of, and from the last edition to the current i dont notice alot of difference in how the armies look, heck i have a 3rd ed imp guard codex, and i see many similarities in it to the most current one out right now, there are some differences but overall not that many that i see. and really allot of the time thats what they do, all they did to the tau is axe one special charachter, and add a couple more, add a couple of cute items, gear, and skimmers, and bam new book. the problem is, is that gw has admitted already in a couple of WD back when i used to collect them, that they work on pretty much what there interested in working on, and there biggest hardon is marines and chaos, heck with chaos it really shows, in 3rd ed, marine librarians sucked pure and simple, the only psi power they had that i remember was smite, ooo yeay, yet a chaos wizard had a variety of powers he could choose from and then more with diff marks he could take. Chaos marines were cheaper in some cases, rediculously overpowered in others,

i think finally in 4th and 5th things are really starting to balance out, and to top it off there really making some awsome models and additions to some of these armies so im hoping that GW decides not to change anything for a while and blast them codex's out.

heres a question, i heard a rumor that GW is gonna blitz codex's out up unto the end of the year and after that any codex that isnt finished the army will be dropped.. has anyone else heard that obsurd rumor? i was just curious. i mean what if it was tyranid :O i have over 13000 pts of nids, i wanna keep them lol

IJW
23-02-2009, 11:09
as for the dark eldar being a dead army, can you even buy models for them anymore???
They're direct only, but you certainly can still buy the models.


i havent seen dark eldar in my local store since they were in the main box set.
Our local DE player hasn't been in for awhile, but one of the Marine players is starting DE. I've not seen many Ork armies locally, but it doesn't mean that they don't get used.


and as for them being playable to current rules. sorry to say this but if you think that codex is still usable, YOU ARE WRONG.
Why? In several cases, DE have had several improvements in 5th ed, noticeably transports being less dangerous to the passengers. DE could be viciously effective in 4th, they can be competitive in 5th as well.


the current armies, even the 4th ed codex's have all been updated enough to the current rule books, and use universal special rules to make it easier for players to condend with. the Dark Eldar still use archaic versions of some of these rules, for example, hidden deployment. the DE have a person that uses hidden deployment. in 3rd edition you could place your model secretly anwhere you want. that is not the case now. Kroot Stalkers in 3rd had the same rule. the 3rd ed codex for tyranid allowed Lictors to Hidden deploy the same way as the DE charachter. Now the Tyranid 4th ed codex states that Hidden deployment allows you to deploy via deep strike, said charachter in to difficult terrain, and may drift anywhere by way of scatter dice inside that terrain, but cannot drift out. both armies state these abilities are hidden deployment. i believe the newest version of hidden Deployment is correct. i had an issue with a local player who has a DE army, and because of rules like this, and the fact that there are no known errata on these issues he no longer plays the army. This is why i call Dark Eldar a dead race. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN UPDATED IN 2 EDITIONS NOW
Capitals and paragraphs would have made that block a bit easier to read...

I'm not sure what your point is? DE use the rules in their codex, just like ALL other armies do. That Lictors enter play in a different way is utterly irrelevant and I wasn't aware that there was any confusion on the matter. :eyebrows:

Errata isn't needed just because a totally separate codex has different rules.


heres a question, i heard a rumor that GW is gonna blitz codex's out up unto the end of the year and after that any codex that isnt finished the army will be dropped.. has anyone else heard that obsurd rumor? i was just curious. i mean what if it was tyranid :O i have over 13000 pts of nids, i wanna keep them lol
No, nobody else has heard that absurd rumour, because the Design Studio specifically said that they aren't going to discontinue any more armies. :rolleyes:

Captain Micha
23-02-2009, 13:32
Ah, perhaps you are thinking the WalMart method of running a business, pile it high and sell it cheap.

My family used to run a business in the UK selling plastic sheeting, everything from passport holders to plastic in cars. Our aim was to have a product no one else had and then sell it high. Something like the 528th largest business in the UK but the 25th most profitable.

Wargames figures are not going to be wanted by everyone and some of those that want them will pay insane prices for them - the GW approach.

Car sales, video game console sales, housing, pretty much everything that has any intention on staying around for long, runs that model of business. As demand comes down, supply increases and inventory cost as a result rises. The way to counter this? Lower prices to get the items out of inventory. Gw's the only company still in business (as most fail miserably) that does the opposite of this.

yabbadabba
23-02-2009, 14:15
Car sales, video game console sales, housing, pretty much everything that has any intention on staying around for long, runs that model of business. As demand comes down, supply increases and inventory cost as a result rises. The way to counter this? Lower prices to get the items out of inventory. Gw's the only company still in business (as most fail miserably) that does the opposite of this.

The reason supplies increase is because companies over order failing to predict a downturn or, in the case of housing for e.g., more comes on the market than is coming off creating a buyers market.

GW do not fit into that, nor do alot of niche market, vertically integrated, manufacturing sales companies. The reason is as soon as stock levels start to rise, they can just slow producing it, allowing the levels to fall. The only time companies like GW need to shift stock at a reduced price is when they have ended a line and have more stock than expected sales over a given period, and they want to create more space. Hence why alot of people have picked up some great blister deals as the stores run their stocks down.

Another reason why companies reduce prices at times like now is competition. now while GW has competitiors in terms of model companies and alternative hobbies, they have no direct competitors. No other wargames company has the retail business GW has. They have always had to compete with other hobbies. Therefore there is no competitive reason to adjust prices.

The only other reason to reduce prices is as a direct result of customers stopping buying their products as the prices are too high. And no amount of moaning and whinging on here will convince GW HQ that that is happening on a significant level.

blongbling
23-02-2009, 14:17
Car sales, video game console sales, housing, pretty much everything that has any intention on staying around for long, runs that model of business. As demand comes down, supply increases and inventory cost as a result rises. The way to counter this? Lower prices to get the items out of inventory. Gw's the only company still in business (as most fail miserably) that does the opposite of this.

what you describe is a pretty poor business model and one used by a lot mainstream/mass market retailers and is responsible for many of them going out of business recently when sales came down and the cash generated by the lower RRP means they cant survive.

GW is a niche business and therefore follows a very different business model that needs to do none of the things that you mention. GW may be a 100m + a year company but that still makes them small, and in a niche market and not mass market. It is just that they do the niche market well and as a result have a good turnover. What happens is that people then think they are large and therefore main stream and should do all the stuff other retailers do...this is not the case and would be counter productive.

There isnt a lot of books on how to run a niche business or ones that explain the business model of a niche business since most books are about making things for mass appeal, if you really want to learn though try and get a copy of Hidden Champions...that will explain it to you

G

Captain Micha
23-02-2009, 16:04
Except they still wound up with way too much inventory didn't they? Apocalypse wasn't them making -more models-. It was them clearing out old stock.

That's why those nifty Apoc deals came out. (Shame they still aren't going on.)

It was to clear out inventory.

yabbadabba
23-02-2009, 16:08
Except they still wound up with way too much inventory didn't they? Apocalypse wasn't them making -more models-. It was them clearing out old stock.

That's why those nifty Apoc deals came out. (Shame they still aren't going on.)

It was to clear out inventory.

Thats right - but it cleared out a lot more old inventory than new - look at the Leman Russ deal. With some new variants coming in the IG codex there is every reason to think that the old LR boxes will be outdated. So why not clear a load of old stock.

Apoc will have caused far less damage to GW and cleared a more than reasonable amout of stock. A sale would have done them far more damage short and mid term.

Captain Micha
23-02-2009, 16:12
Given that they charge 25 dollars for a magazine that calls itself a book. I doubt it would have done them that much damage.

Personally I think they should have cut larger deals on apoc with certain armies that they've all but dropped *such as Dark Eldar*.

It was a good idea, but probably not extensive enough.

IJW
23-02-2009, 16:16
Except they still wound up with way too much inventory didn't they?
Out of curiosity, what are you basing this opinion on?

Captain Micha
23-02-2009, 16:23
Out of curiosity, what are you basing this opinion on?

Apoc's existence maybe? The massive deals you could get with the apoc splash releases? The fact that those said releases aren't permanent new buy in bulk options?

decker_cky
23-02-2009, 18:19
Doesn't mean they had excess inventory. I would bet that many of those sets were cases where they said "we can produce X of these models for Y dollars. The normal price of these models would be A, but if we sell at a lower price per model, we can make enough real profit to make these deals worthwhile. More importantly, these bulk sales will increase cash flow (this is the important one) and allow us to get out of this situation of financial difficulty we're in." The limited deals were more likely that they ran one production cycle (however many models that is) and limited the sets to that amount. The control the costs and quantity on the market to make a profit and not devalue their sets.

And you're using Apoc's existence as the reason? There's many reasons for apocalypse (sell more models, get customer engagement from veterans, increase excitement in hobby, etc..) and I think "move old stock" is below all those reasons.

IJW
23-02-2009, 18:40
Nope, like decker points out, Apoc doesn't mean that there was excess stock - there are many other reasons/explanation for it.

Anyway, several of the larger deals (and incidentally, the ones with the largest discounts) are still available (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1300054&rootCatGameStyle=). Plus splash releases have been a regular thing for GW going back a couple of decades, just look at the Eldar War Walker initially coming out in a triple pack for a reduced price.

Crazy Harborc
25-02-2009, 03:37
I do not like Walmart. My wife and I have no problem with avoiding Walie world.

THAT said.....Walmart had a good Holiday shopping season for 2008. Walmart MADE a profit for the season and the year. Walmart (in my area at least) slashed prices before and after the shopping season. Plenty of stores didn't slash prices (soon enough or low enough) and those stores did NOT come out of the shopping season with a profit for the season and or the year.

Many of the "other minies makers" are cutting prices back due to money exchange rates. Some are offering membership discounts.

GW offers........?

yabbadabba
25-02-2009, 07:49
I do not like Walmart. My wife and I have no problem with avoiding Walie world.
THAT said.....Walmart had a good Holiday shopping season for 2008. Walmart MADE a profit for the season and the year. Walmart (in my area at least) slashed prices before and after the shopping season. Plenty of stores didn't slash prices (soon enough or low enough) and those stores did NOT come out of the shopping season with a profit for the season and or the year.
Many of the "other minies makers" are cutting prices back due to money exchange rates. Some are offering membership discounts.
GW offers........?


What are you looking for? Walmart is inconsequential to the debate over whether GW should make deals. Are you a shareholder? If I cam to you as a GW business Manager and said "Hey we are going to cut prices!" would you answer "Woo Hoo!" or would it be:

#Whats the proof that we will make the same or more money?
#How much will it cost us in refunds to our independent stockists?
#If we do not make the money what is the exit strategy for this plan if it fails?
#What are the likely Customer relations fall out if we do slash prices, but then have to put them up again because we do not make the money?

Do I go on? It's easy shouting for cheaper products. It's a lot harder to implement.

zedeyejoe
25-02-2009, 08:12
I agree. The Walmart model of business relies on lower prices gaining greater sales as people chose to buy from the lowest price supplier. As has been said previously GW sales are more like selling luxury cars, lower the prices and you just sell the same amount but at lower value.

I am paying 3 for my jeans these days but I gather people are shelling out 50 or more for other jeans, something to do with the name on them.

Business is not one size fits all. You should have been there when a friend and I chatted about our respective businesses (she ran a shop selling chocolate).

bluemeenie
25-02-2009, 16:52
anyone remember dirty steves bargain basement deals/troll deals on the GW website back in the late 90's....

Now that was a great section that I used to visit on a daily basis. They would put up set numbers of overstock/damaged stock and let people order at huge discounts.


I remember they had a Imp armor sale one week where all tanks no matter what were 20 dollars.

I picked up a NIB Leman Russ, Preditor, Razorback for 60 bucks...was like buy 2 get 1 free :)...


loved that guy.

to bad they killed that concept off.

thenamelessdead
25-02-2009, 18:09
GW offers........?

GW used to do offers. I remember going to the Exeter grand opening clutching my vouchers, the one where you buy a boxed game and army book and get a boxed set free or something! And they occasionally did special offer mailshots for mail order deals. The only deals I can see now are the battleforce boxed sets representing a saving, but that's about it. They are pretty generous by GW's standards!


anyone remember dirty steves bargain basement deals/troll deals on the GW website back in the late 90's....


Trollboss Ted's cut price cavern :D

bluemeenie
25-02-2009, 20:39
Trollboss Ted's cut price cavern :D

Thats the guy!!!


hahahaha I loved that Troll...especially at xmas time with that stupid santa hat.

Crazy Harborc
28-02-2009, 01:55
Okay.....there is no advance proof that I can offer that GW will bring in more money and or more newbies with lower prices. However, the current past yearly price increases do not appear to have worked in the past 5 or so years. Prices were raised (in the USA)on selected items and darn near across the board as well.

Considering the current USA and most of the world's economies (Nations were GW's products are sold) price hikes are not too likely to be new business or player attracters.;)

zedeyejoe
28-02-2009, 08:26
Okay.....there is no advance proof that I can offer that GW will bring in more money and or more newbies with lower prices. However, the current past yearly price increases do not appear to have worked in the past 5 or so years.

Well certainly lower prices bring more customers, the question is does it bring enough to increase profits.

Economics 1.
Reduce a price by 1, is a pound of profit you are giving away.

Economics 2.
Best way to have a 'pile it high, sell it cheap' business is not to make the stuff yourself but to buy it in. You can then pressure the suppliers to supply cheap based on the volume you are buying and if you don't sell stuff, well thats OK you are not buying either, so your costs are down.

Economics 3.
This policy works best where you have competition. Your low prices attract people who would otherwise be shopping for the same thing somewhere else.

Now go spread the word, GW ain't Walmart and the same business model will not work. It works for on-line discounters, although they cannot force GW prices down.

That being said word from people who (used to) sell GW stuff is that when box prices went up from 15 to 18 a box, it was like walking off the edge of a cliff. One chaps turnover went from 2000 a week to 200. He became bankrupt (as have others I know who were selling GW stuff).

So I do believe that there is a 'price point' above which GW makes it hard to make sales. So demand for GW stuff is not 'inelastic' as the GW model presupposes. I did a one year economics course at uni when I was studying for my maths/physics degree and economics is a hell of a lot of fun. Maths applied to selling stuff, great.

On the plus side although GW has been selling less stuff, turnover has not gone down much because with higher prices they are making more when they sell the same stuff.

Bel Anathar
01-03-2009, 21:49
Could be pointed out that White Dwarf is decently available at magazine stands - I could get it from the local sub-urb hypermarket if I wanted to (OTOH, I can read it for free in a certain sub-urb library).

Thats how i found the hobby, was randomly brousing magazines, picked up WD and decided I liked the models so brought it. My friends and family have taken an interest it the magazine when I've left it lying around too.

Crazy Harborc
02-03-2009, 03:10
Based on what I remember of the GW Quarterly, Semi Annual and Annual financial statements released over the last 4 to 5 years. Even with the regular, yearly price hikes....net quarterly, semi and annual net profits have NOT met the official company projections.

If the price increases were sufficient, GW's profits should have at least been the same level or higher each of the last 4-5 years.;) I do not see how GW can to doing well and continuing to grow and bring in higher numbers of newbies and or keep repeat veteran customers. IMHO, the reported corporate numbers have not shown "all is well" to be the case.