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tricker53
13-02-2009, 10:37
i know some people are going to freak and rage-leave this threead when they read thorek, but DONT WORRY. NO WRATH AND RUIN. . . only oath and honour. :p

Lords
thorek ironbrow = 505

Heroes
thane - BSB, strollaz rune = 145
dragon slayer = 50 (points filler wee)

Core Units
24 warriors - full command, shields = 241
10 thunderers = 140
12 longbeards - great weapons, rangers, full command, shields = 205

Special Units
2 bolt throwers = 90
2 bolt throwers = 90
7 miners - full command, steam drill = 127
7 miners - full command, steam drill = 127

Rare Units
gyrocopter = 140
gyrocopter = 140

Total: 2000

if i set the longbeards up right theyll have a 1st turn flank with thorek, the miners are a no brainer with you guessed it, thorek. . . and the BSB thane will boost the move of the warriors (which are obviously his unit) and dragon slayer. i know i should probably have more units to benefit from strollaz but i just really like the rune. i dont wanna have to rune up the dragon slayer because then ill need MR kragg incase i come up against T4 or less. the idea behind the 7 miners is maximising with full attacks on 5x20mm ranks, and the longbeards are similar, but with +1 rank (however theyll hoprfully have a flank, so im hoping for 25mms with 4 ranks).

tricker53
15-02-2009, 04:45
uuh bump. . .

long bow
15-02-2009, 06:34
why do you have 7 men dwarf units?
you have 4 characters thorek is a lord and a hero then you have a drogon slayer and a thane.
and thorek i am pretty sure cannont join other units, but hey i might be wrong
then a dragon slayer with no runes? i useally use them with 2 rune fo fury and master rune of swiftness

Darkmaw
15-02-2009, 06:53
Actually if u are planning on 1st turn flank, then it doesnt make much difference between 12 Longbeard rangers and 12 warrior rangers. And if really intend on breaking the opponent, get the +1 CR rune.

Personally i would use LB when i need a core RnF unit that is immune to fear.

10 Thunderers: I assume your army is mobile. So the 10 thunderers would be hanging back since by moving them, you waste their firepower. If you do intend to hang back, then 10 quarrellers would be a better choice due to the increased range.

I would also rune 1 of the Bolthrower with +1 Str, just for the chariots (lion chariot, black coach, Waraltar). Another Bolthrower would get the fire rune for those regenerating nasties ( Hydra, Varghulf, Regenerating Blood Knights)

Also you might wanna give your BSB some protection (?5+ ward). A smart opponent will target him because killing him nets u 1 less CR and inability to reroll break test.

tricker53
16-02-2009, 20:13
i was turned off from the +1S rune on bolt throwers because in the rulebook it says that the 2nd rank hit is always S5, regardless of initial S of the bolt thrower. . . unless theyve erratad it. with regards to the BSB, isnt a 24 strong warrior unit enough? and besides, what else can i give him? all i can find is 5+ ward against missile attacks, but hes in a large unit anyway. . .

i agree about the thunderers being switched totally.

if i give the dragon slayer runes then im going to have to give him kragg the grim too because most of the time he isnt going to be challenging dragons and greater daemons. besides, i see little point in the MR of swiftness because he should be flank charging anyway if i do it right (place him 1" or 2" behind the warrior block on the side, then when they hit CC he comes in as well).

Fate
16-02-2009, 23:28
First I got one question, why 2000 and not 2250? Most games are now played at those points.

To the list itself then. Thunderes work fine enough, Don't forget that with strollaz's rune you can make them move before the game so you'll always have range, besides taking more armour to enemies which is useful for cavalary, they have +1 to hit too so it's a good idea not to single them out. With this being said, won't a couple of organ guns be more useful too? after all they get firing right from the beggining while the gyrocpters, despite fun, won't do much with a S3 breath.

You seam to waste your points on a dragon slayer, you underestimate the power of a one round combat hero. I use a thane with rune of brotherhood to go with rangers, Then I give him a great weapon runed along with an extra attack and one extra point of WS. Now a guy who has 4 attacks at strenght 6 and WS 7, that's some pain, specially if it goes with 5 extra attacks of str 6 from the unit of rangers. Course the way I use rangers is a unit of 24 models with a rune of battle. That unit can charge up to 18 inches, they get a charge on the first turn about most times and when they do, you don't want to be around.

I like the 2 miner units but you know what happens if you're fighting a full offensive force. They are laughing stock... So, my point is that more bolt throwers would be better... If you really want to field them, one unit is better, at least you'll only waste one unit should you fight a combat army.

Talking abolt throwers, where in the 7 hells are your enginners? +1 to hit and of course, and extra crewman is always necessary.

On a general not, I think your army needs more than one solid block, because the one you have has only STR 3 and should things go wrong, your strong hitting units will go down like flies.
Also I don't see a use for gyrocopters unless you know you'll be facing enemies with lots of RnF T3 or less models and without that much shooting.

tricker53
17-02-2009, 06:34
strollaz rune states that shooty units count as moving on turn 1 if they move with it, and thunderers have move or shoot so. . . i see no point.

the thane you have listed also requires MR of kragg in order to actually use his great weapon. plus i find that if i added a thane to my unit of longbeards they would be definately overkill, seeing as they already have a frontage of 8 WS5 S6 attacks.

since the miners will have a rear with 6 S5 and 2 S6 attacks 80% of the time, and a flank against a full offensive force (i dont have to come off the rear board edge ya know) they should be fine. not to mention the gyros will be slowing the enemy down with march-block/steaming.

ive taken minimum point bolt throwers just so i can get more of them. 3 bolt throwers at BS4 is the same cost and chance of hitting as 4 with BS3, so why not get more?

the gyros arent there to do damage. they are a brilliant harrasment unit for a relatively static army. their seemingly outrageous price is because theyre the only flying unit in a completely M3 book.

i agree though that i should bump this list up to 2250 and remove the dragon slayer. heres an attempt at 2250:

Lords
thorek ironbrow = 505

Heroes
thane - BSB, strollaz rune = 145

Core Units
25 warriors - full command, shields = 250
19 warriors - full command, shields = 196
25 warriors - full command, shields = 250
12 longbeards - great weapons, rangers, standard + champion = 188

Special Units
2 bolt throwers = 90
2 bolt throwers = 90
7 miners - full command, steam drill = 127
7 miners - full command, steam drill = 127

Rare Units
gyrocopter = 140
gyrocopter = 140

Total: 2248

fromage
17-02-2009, 07:01
seems like a good list though I do suggest more war machines

Fate
17-02-2009, 07:04
You are right about the strollaz's rune, I didn't notice it as up till now I used it only to move a single unit.

You think a thane is overkill on that unit? really, that unit at 12 models... I hardly belive it will survive long enough, specially against shoter armies... But even assuming it's overkill, do you prefer to risk them to win the day or make sure they do?

Yes miners come from any edge. Just pray that the enemy will chose com come around, most times they come through the center and if so. your miners will have a very long march ahead of them. Like I said, they are good for warmachine and shooting units hunt, no more really.

When I asked about you enginners on the bolt throwers, I never said anything aboud reducing them, I actually remember saying to remove a unit of miners and get more bolt throwers. All of them should have an engineer and other things should take the tool for it, they are game winning things as they are you first line of defence against big punchers.

Gyros do not harass anything if they can't do damage can they? No, instead, when the enemy doesn't have a better thing to do, they'll swat them off the skies like flies and well, you said it yourself, they are too costy. Better buckle up for 2 organ guns, there are good for protecting a flank all alone or if nothing better shoot at whatever comes in range.

On my personal opinion (seeying from your 2250 roster) you seam to overestimate the power of the warriors. Save 3+ for me means that 90% of the battles they will be reduced to 6+ or no save. How? Well I don't really get many charges below STR 6 on something with that save and that CR.
Also you seam to overestimate the power of miners and rangers. They are good yes, but miners only have STR 5 and against a combat army, most times they won't do much. Even the rangers with the potential of a first turn charge will be hard pressed if they don't have a character inside giving extra guarantee, 3 ranks banner and rune of battle. That unit, with the potential of making an 18" move in the first round and charging an enemy should be able to bring nearly anything down. Even a lord on a dragon if you are smart enough to allocate the hits on the dragon which will have a lower WS, save 3+ at best and above all, no ward save.

tricker53
17-02-2009, 08:31
by your logic on the warriors, even ironbreakers will only be getting 5+/6+ saves, so in other words there isnt an option for a block unit that is viable. . .

i cant see how the gyros will get 'swatted' if theyre behind the enemy and march blocking them, unless theyre skirmishers or lone characters, of which i will rarely run into (with perhaps the exception of beast of chaos).

with the longbeard unit, if/when they get a flank charge theyll hurt even the likes of WoC with shields enough not to get too many attacks back. i dont want to put a character there because of course i wont always be able to deploy legally in the opponents deployment zone. plus ive already spent almost 1/3 of my force on characters with thorek and the BSB. if i take a24 strong unit as you suggested with a thane theyll be breaking 500+ pts for one unit thats NOT thorek.

ill consider engineers on the bolt throwers, also perhaps rune of burning?

also those 2 warrior blocks are getting boosted by strollaz. . .

tricker53
17-02-2009, 09:03
Lords
thorek ironbrow = 505

Heroes
thane - BSB, strollaz rune = 145

Core Units
25 warriors - standard + musician, shields = 240
25 warriors - standard + musician, shields = 240
12 longbeards - great weapons, rangers, standard + champion = 188

Special Units
bolt thrower - engineer = 60
bolt thrower - engineer = 60
bolt thrower - engineer = 60
bolt thrower - engineer = 60
24 ironbreakers - full command, MR of grungi = 392
bolt thrower - engineer = 60

Rare Units
organ gun = 120
organ gun = 120

Total: 2250

hows this? BSB in the ironbreakers obviously.

i feared it would come to this though. i really didnt want to field more than 4 warmachines in this army. . . excluding anvil and gyros.

Fate
17-02-2009, 13:30
Yes I rate the iron breakers as highly as the warriors... Seams stupid? well the equasion is still simple, most times they'll save at 5+ and with just 3 ranks. I don't even bother too add that they can potentially get another 4 CR from a single BSB because on most occasions, it's just a mater of allocating 3 to 4 attacks on him in a charge and he's dead. Dwarves are only deadly as long as they can charge and make a lot of great weapon attacks (preferably at STR 6 for maximum wounds and more save taken).

It's easy to swat a gyro out of the sky, even 2 gyros, if there is shooting or magic, they fall like flies. Also all armies or nearly all have skirmisher units but even that is not really necessary.

You say that a ranger unit like I sugested is over 500 points like if that was bad. Mine is over 600 points, the warriors I use are over 500 and with the anvil at almost 500 (my roster doesn't use special characters though if I want to add torek I just need to drop 1 quarreller and 3 warriors). Now apart from this I have 11 quarrellers, 8 bolt throwers all with engineers and 2 organ guns.
The weak point in the army is the bolt throwers, the organ guns and the quarrellers but even if they destroy them, well thats litle over 800 points in 11 units they have to destroy, most time half of my warmachines survives... Now my points are on 3 units which wont be broken easly. The easiest of them all is the Warriors but even so they are there to protect flanks and whatever goes at them has the warmaching supporting it. The rangers are deadly by themselfs with a charge at first turn almost all the times. Last the anvil of doom thakes the following runes. Armour with MR of steel, R of resistence and Rune of stone. Then MR of Spite and for the 25 points lacking I use a Rune of might. So it always saves at 4+ with reroll (also have a shield) and then ward save of 4 in all situations. The weapon is just in case I might need the double strenght though I don't rally expect to do much with just 2 attacks.
The idea is, my points are centred in 3 units which will be very hard to break and that itself already give you a headache just to turn the game into a tie and it was my worst result ever when playing with that list.

Your second list is much better though you got my opinion on the Iron Breakers already... If you prefer a strong fighting unit that really has to be a special choice, go with hammerers, at least you get a great weapon there and if things go wrong with casualties, which probably will, you are stubborn.

Just an after thought. Deploy a hill at the center of table to the left or right right after the 12 inches of the center. Hide your rangers ehind it and put the BSB near them on the deploy. You'll be able to march them foward before the first turn, then on your turn march them again and then use the anvil... Yeah, 18 inches and a first turn charge. Lovely ain't it?