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View Full Version : Does GW take to long to produce codex/army books



AUN'SHI
13-02-2009, 15:56
Hello all Id just like your imput. Do you think GW takes to long to release codex's and army books. IMO I think they do (Dark eldar being the example). Now I know they are working on thing here and there but It kinda sucks to have to wait for codex's. Espically if a certain army is your fav.

I remember when I had to wait for the dark elves to get a new book. I stopped playing the game. I find that due to the slow release of these books people start to leave the hobby.

I know this may not be possible but I think GW should speed things up a bit and give thighter dead lines. There is always an faq/errata which can be done after the fact. (seems to be the norm)

But maybe I'm just babbling what do you guys think?

TheDarkDuke
13-02-2009, 16:00
in ways yes they take to long. looking at dark elder its been how long since an update? and space marines have had how many updates/ new chapter books etc? but then i also think of how poorly written some of these books really are and that makes me think they need to take more time writing them or replace some of the monkeys on the typewriters.....

so im kinda sitting on the fence on this.

RichBlake
13-02-2009, 16:02
The issue isn't "How long does it take to make the books?" but rather "Do you think GW have a screwed up system for codex releases?".

The new codexes are generally made, along with new models, relativley quickly, however it's the order and way they choose which codexes to do that is wrong. Strictly speaking the fairest way would be to draw up a list and follow that, starting the next army after finishing the last, and only returning to that army once everyone has an updated codex.

However this would mean their mainstream army/armies (SM) would be out of date for a good few years.

I'm sure they have reasons behind their methods, i just dont have a clue what they are.

Goq Gar
13-02-2009, 16:12
I'm very tempted to say "Case and point: Dark Eldar", but the issue isnt book release, it's army updating.

The best way to do army release is, as they do, a staggered release. However, every army should be updated once at a time. Dark Eldar have not been updated since... pretty much when I started playing 40k. Space marines have been updated more than is natural.

Of course, this all boils down to money. GW need to make money, they are a company. So they keep interest in the popular armies to keep the hobby alive. If other armies have to be neglected to keep GW afloat, so be it.

GW recently released their credit report, or whatever you call it. And based on that, I am forced to question what i've written above. Put it this way, GW are not in a financial crisis. So are they simply screwing gamers for more money? Quite possibly. But when you get down to it, GW are the owners of this hobby. It is entirely up to them what they do, and what we say is about as influential as released gas in a jacuzzi.

I hope i've brought some insight.

SPYDER68
13-02-2009, 16:14
Its honestly hard to say on this one..

Look at fantasy, they get a new armybook every 4-5 months, with around 4 a year, 40k gets maybe 2 a year 3 if very lucky.


So is it more ..

Does GW put out armybooks for 40k to slow ?

AUN'SHI
13-02-2009, 16:19
I see both your point 100%. But I feel some book get way more attention marines come to mind. True there has been many screw ups but I guess that what faq/errata are for :)

To be honest I think GW should just get into gear. Books should be tested close to the same time so you can tell if it's broken or not. This woulod also allow many realeases at once instead of waiting for 100 yrs for a codex/army book to be made.

At the present I do not like the way GW takes so long to produce a book. In 40k Im a Tau player and I don't expect to see a codex until the year 2015 if Im lucky. This is not acceptable imo.

As I said making people wait this long for a codex is going to get them to leave the game and looses interest. Or maybe go to a competitor that dosen't make you wait so long. I can think of a game but I wont post that here.

AUN'SHI
13-02-2009, 16:24
Look at fantasy, they get a new armybook every 4-5 months

Not to sure if I agree here. I had to wait pfff I don't even know how long before a new Dark elf book came out. And from what roumours I've heard the chaos dwarves are coming out again. I think they were made back in the 90's thats a looooooong time.

Forlorn
13-02-2009, 16:27
I can't say I'd look forward to having to buy the same Codex again and again every few months. Screw that.

Michaelius
13-02-2009, 16:28
They should be doing things like they did with 5 to 6th edition of WFB with all armies getting fast playable rules and then releasing codexes every 3 or 4 months.

Murphey
13-02-2009, 16:28
Personally? I like the rate at which they produce army books, for one simple reason:

I don't trust them not to screw up the next codex of my army.

A perfect example: Chaos Space Marines were my secondary army for about 4 years. The codex was beautiful. The sheer variation, the tons of different options, and the ability to make a truly unique army was amazing.

Then, the new chaos codex comes out. Less options than even the newer codices, a complete lack of legion options, a complete removal of many previous units (thus making many modeled miniatures non-wysiwyg), and overall just an utterly disappointing codex.

Ultimately, I had to give up my chaos marines (being that all the units I used before do not exist any more), thus leaving me pretty bitter about that codex.

So as far as I'm concerned, I'm fine with the fact that there will not be a new 'Nid codex for another 5+ years (they are my primary), because I really like my 'Nid army, and I don't want to lose that one too.

~Murphey

AUN'SHI
13-02-2009, 16:33
I can't I'd look forward to having to buy the same Codex again and again every few months. Screw that.


Firstly id like to say your avatar is awesome!!!! :)


But now imagine if GW released all the books close to the same time and actually kept an edition for a good solid while. That way you would not have to keep buying new codex's. And on top of that if somthing is messed up there is always an faq/errata which would work just fine.

IJW
13-02-2009, 16:56
Look at fantasy, they get a new armybook every 4-5 months, with around 4 a year, 40k gets maybe 2 a year 3 if very lucky.
Basic maths fail - four a year would be every three months. Every 4-5 months is, in fact, the 2-3 books a year that both 40k and Warhammer get.


But now imagine if GW released all the books close to the same time and actually kept an edition for a good solid while.
And what would GW then use for sales boosts in between the editions? Apart from every previous GW attempt at lots of books in a short time having resulted in bad books - 3rd ed pamphlets, I'm looking at you!

SPYDER68
13-02-2009, 17:05
Basic maths fail - four a year would be every three months. Every 4-5 months is, in fact, the 2-3 books a year that both 40k and Warhammer get.


And what would GW then use for sales boosts in between the editions? Apart from every previous GW attempt at lots of books in a short time having resulted in bad books - 3rd ed pamphlets, I'm looking at you!

Oh sry, you came off good as looking like a prick thou over a typo, congrat, make yourself feel better now ?

*3-5 months.. Happy ??

bomblu
13-02-2009, 17:08
I noted No but the answer might be 'Yes and No' cos a release such as the Dark Eldar one's quite drie yet somehow GW released Space marnies every 2 years - same goes for some obsucre armies.

They release a lot of stuff in one year but the ones that rly need a re-do seem to be put aside - i long for the day/opportunity to work with GW as to try and fix some of this stuff :D

AUN'SHI
13-02-2009, 17:10
And what would GW then use for sales boosts in between the editions? Apart from every previous GW attempt at lots of books in a short time having resulted in bad books - 3rd ed pamphlets, I'm looking at you!

I think they could probably use expansion to the army book. or such things like apacolypse. Or make more minis. People will still be buying just not codex's and more models instead.

And they would still come out with new edition that wont change and ppl will start buying the new codex.

Buy making book s quicker I think this would boost sales. The reason is because ppl will now be able to actually buy an army and do somthing with it. As opposed to just wait for their book to come out then buy an army.

Lame Duck
13-02-2009, 17:13
I just wish they'd do (at least) one book for each army for each edition, and have them all in the same style and relatively balanced.

If they did then how longthey took wouldn't really matter.

Chem-Dog
13-02-2009, 17:22
Yes and no, the enthusiast in me wants all of the Codexes now, the realist in me know there are reasons that that isn't sensible (let alone possible) to do it like this.

It's frustrating but at least the time between books means we can give our armies a little bit more attention in sequence, My IG are chomping at the bit :D

Jellicoe
13-02-2009, 17:33
Yes and no - the pace is probably OK the choice as others have said is more questionable, particularly as there are races that are significantly neglected for long periods Dark Eldar as mentioned and for a long while the Ork codex was an equal embarassment

The daemon codices were a further unnecessary distraction from the core armies and doubly irritated me as they completely invalidated my previous Hordes of Chaos army and emasculated the CSM army

Corrode
13-02-2009, 17:34
The rate of production is fine. The order of production isn't.

Noserenda
13-02-2009, 17:36
When they released lots of codexes at once, those codexes were *****. Personally I would prefer bigger gaps between some Codexes, the Old Codex Marines was in many ways better imho.

Tymell
13-02-2009, 17:37
I voted no, although I don't agree with the "fine the way it is" bit.

While there may be a problem with their priorities (as in Dark Eldar), this isn't really that they take too long to produce codexes in general, more that they sometimes take too long to get around to some particular ones, and even then it's not due to being unable to do it faster, but deciding not to.

Indeed, I sometimes feel they do it much too fast. Maybe it's just nostalgia, but a new codex release actually used to mean something to me. These days it's just "Oh yeah, another few months, another update, another codex with a handful of changes and some new models. Cool." This isn't always the case, of course, but it feels like it sometimes.

Eryx_UK
13-02-2009, 17:43
They do take too long to get them done. DE, WH and DH are all perfect examples of codexes that languish because they don't get a new book as regular as the others. Keep them updated and people will buy the miniatures.

FraustyTheSnowman
13-02-2009, 17:51
As far as I'm concerned there is no other excuse beyond laziness for the way in which GW conducts business. Other gaming companies produce a huge ammount of well writen, complete content at a fraction of the time it takes GW to work on a project. I'm not going to be one of those people that hates EVERY SINGLE THING they produce, but I will say I'm not satisfied with what they've done so far.

march10k
13-02-2009, 17:55
~sigh~

When you want a product, you have to consider the following:

Do you want it quickly?

Do you want it to be high quality?

Do you want it to be cheap?

You can only have two of the three. And the three exist on a continuum. If you slide the "quickly" bar to max, either you'll suffer a decline in quality, or an increase in price, or both. It's easy to say "then raise the price," but that won't prevent a decrease in quality, and it will encourage even more **** burglars to photocopy the books instead of buying them. I think the current rate of releases is fine, but they do need more frequent PDFs.

Lord Damocles
13-02-2009, 18:00
Depends on how long 'too long' is.

Personally, I'm inclined to say that a decade is pushing the limits somewhat.

40kdhs
13-02-2009, 18:04
I have been waiting for 6 years for a new DH codex. Yes, it's too long.

Hestan-San
13-02-2009, 18:09
Both the rate of production and the order are fine as they are. GW is not producing these products for the fanboys, they are producing them for the shareholders. As the company is recording profits again now it is safe to assume that they are making the right decisions.

If a codex is left back it is almost always for financial reasons. Dark eldar sell terribly, they always have done. Now a brand new model range for them will certainly make them pick up, but they probably won't break into the top 5.

Bookwrak
13-02-2009, 18:16
As far as I'm concerned there is no other excuse beyond laziness for the way in which GW conducts business. Other gaming companies produce a huge ammount of well writen, complete content at a fraction of the time it takes GW to work on a project. I'm not going to be one of those people that hates EVERY SINGLE THING they produce, but I will say I'm not satisfied with what they've done so far.

And these wonderful other companies would be...?

Corrode
13-02-2009, 18:23
Both the rate of production and the order are fine as they are. GW is not producing these products for the fanboys, they are producing them for the shareholders. As the company is recording profits again now it is safe to assume that they are making the right decisions.

If a codex is left back it is almost always for financial reasons. Dark eldar sell terribly, they always have done. Now a brand new model range for them will certainly make them pick up, but they probably won't break into the top 5.

Not entirely true. Orks have never done badly, but with a ten year old Codex they weren't exactly popular. Now you can't move for them. Wood Elves in Fantasy experienced a similar resurgence with a new (good) book and a new (good) model range. It's all about what GW pushes and the quality of the production, and Dark Eldar were a mess in both regards.

decker_cky
13-02-2009, 18:25
I'd prefer if they released the armies all together with new editions, then over time released compendiums for each race that included background, hobby, tactics, etc... They could then release an annual FAQ/revision to lists to rebalance them over time, including adding new units. This avoids situations of armybook creep, and lets them release snazzy models as they're produced, and to add new rules when they're needed.

AUN'SHI
13-02-2009, 19:24
And these wonderful other companies would be...?

I agree with Fraustythesnowman. I'm sure he didn't want to indicate what all the other companies are. Ill just name 1.. Warmachine... which I'm sure a number of you guys might play. There are other's but I don't want this to become a warhammer vs...

In 40k The space marines are out.. The space wolves are soon to come... Granted these guys needs a new book but another marine chapter I mean come on :(

GW would make more money (even though they don't need this at the moment) if they started making more than 1 codex every year (I know this is a stretch, but I hope you guys understand)

I stopped playing warhammer for a long time and started playing Warmachine instead (just an example) I bought a crap load of stuff from the other games which could of been stuff bought from GW if they came out with my army within a reasonable time frame. I play Dark elves do you know how long I had to wait before a new book Bleeding rediculious. I play Tau pfff Id be lucky to see a new book within my life time.

Yes the Tau codex needs a change to many things in the book I can't use example command/control nod....

GW should get these things out quicker or they will start seeing a decline as ppl are going to start playing other table top games which have a bigger foundation and all in all complete army lists. I mean it sucks for ppl who like an army but they can't play it. Has nothing to do with fanboy it's an army you like and the only one your willing to collect. Fanboy is hey sooo many ppl plays marines lets keep making only new edition for them....:wtf:

loveless
13-02-2009, 19:57
If people complain now about errors and ambiguities in the Codices/Army Books, why would making the process shorter alleviate any of those problems?

It's fine how it is.

AUN'SHI
13-02-2009, 20:32
If people complain now about errors and ambiguities in the Codices/Army Books, why would making the process shorter alleviate any of those problems?

It's fine how it is.



But people are always going to complain. And plus I think people complain because it takes so long to come out with an army and the army has problems with it. Id think people would complain less and go under the realization that the book came out faster than normal so some error would have to happen.

But this also gives light to erratas allowing GW to not only play test the army them selves but also have other's test it (gamers) for them and let them know the problems that might occur aka complain forums:p.

I truly feel GW takes to long. Any DE player think they waited to long for their book... oh wait its still not out yet. There is no excuse for this.

It seems some armies get more love than other as all of you know. This should not be the case imo.

Draxas
13-02-2009, 20:35
Hello all Id just like your imput. Do you think GW takes to long to release codex's and army books. IMO I think they do (Dark eldar being the example). Now I know they are working on thing here and there but It kinda sucks to have to wait for codex's. Espically if a certain army is your fav.

I remember when I had to wait for the dark elves to get a new book. I stopped playing the game. I find that due to the slow release of these books people start to leave the hobby.

I know this may not be possible but I think GW should speed things up a bit and give thighter dead lines. There is always an faq/errata which can be done after the fact. (seems to be the norm)

But maybe I'm just babbling what do you guys think?

I think that they should take enough time to make sure that they are putting out a quality codex, but I do think they could do it a bit faster. Every army should get an update every edition, if they can't do that then they need to hire more developers/authors. There are a few armies right now that haven't had an update since 3rd edition, which makes them incredibly outdated. Grey Knights for example are probably about 20% overpriced in points compared to what they would be rated at today. Space Wolves' codex is so old that there are abilities and wargear in there that no longer have any relevance to the game rules and have become either dead weight or a rules debate waiting to happen.

Lame Duck
13-02-2009, 21:24
GW should get these things out quicker or they will start seeing a decline as ppl are going to start playing other table top games which have a bigger foundation and all in all complete army lists. I mean it sucks for ppl who like an army but they can't play it. Has nothing to do with fanboy it's an army you like and the only one your willing to collect. Fanboy is hey sooo many ppl plays marines lets keep making only new edition for them....:wtf:

Except if GW hasn't experienced a decline yet, then they never will.

AUN'SHI
13-02-2009, 21:39
Except if GW hasn't experienced a decline yet, then they never will.

True but Rome was also the strongest in the past and they didn't see a decline till much later, and then they decline way down.

I'm not saying they will but they might and I know tons of ppl that use to play warhammer but now play other games cause they have to wait a long time for things to happen.. Im just speaking from my experience here not for everyone else just to make that clear....

I don't know but if you keep making people wait for things they usualy tend to get bored and switch to somthing else.

Now again this may or may not be true but it happened to me so it could happen to other ppl...

loveless
13-02-2009, 21:40
I truly feel GW takes to long. Any DE player think they waited to long for their book... oh wait its still not out yet. There is no excuse for this.


Sure there's an excuse for it.

GW deals with artists. Authors. Sculptors. Painters. So on.

You can't force an artist to just "Do Dark Eldar!" and expect it to be good. You have to find someone who wants to do it and has a vision for them that fits within the established bounds of the fantasy universe that is Warhammer 40K. This goes for authors, sculptors, and the painters/pencilers/inkers that do the art for the books.

Sure, we could put out a new Codex every month for every army if we wanted, but they'd all suck.

GW Designers/Artists have got to hate their work constantly being criticized by their "customers". I mean, yeah, it sucks sometimes because they don't always get a good fit. The new Space Marines come to mind. They didn't jive well in any area except for the rules.

Space Marines are incredibly quick for GW to do, however. They form one of the major, scratch that, THE major plot point in the storyline - the Horus Heresy. They're well-established in people's minds, they have a relatively iconic and standard look, and their rules have long been middle-of-the-road enough in statistical terms to be easy for new players.

Space Marines are easy. Space Marines are iconic of 40K. So they get a new codex with every new edition. Such is life.

Now take the Dark Eldar. What should a Dark Eldar be? How should a Dark Eldar act? How should a Dark Eldar look? What role do the Dark Eldar play in the grand scheme of 40K? There's so little information about them that it takes a lot more work to focus on them to get them to an acceptable level - especially in the current age of Codices and Army Books - if you haven't looked lately, they're all MASSIVE - packed with art and background. So you have to find people within your own staff that effectively have to create an entirely new history - there's just not enough information on the Dark Eldar to do them quickly.

So then you have to make choices. Obviously, with that much work to do on one army, you'll have to assign your best people to it. You want good background, good art, and good rules - and of course, good models. But at the same time, you've got 15 other armies that need attention, and you don't want to hand them over to "sub-par" team members if you can help it.

I can see them splitting up the Dark Eldar over a decent timeframe - Jes does this, the author does that, not necessarily coinciding with each other, but done potentially between other projects.

Meanwhile, you can throw out redos of the easy books. Like Space Marines. It's a release that you know you have to fill (something has to come out this month, you know), so it throw it to someone like Ward and don't have to worry about it - they're already established quite solidly.

Dark Eldar are a tough nut to crack. So are Necrons. They exist and people love them, but without a lot of inspiration from someone on the design team, they aren't easy to do. They have to effectively triple the Necron fluff and quadruple the Dark Eldar fluff to meet today's standards. Plus, the wolves that are the "players" are constantly howling at their doors, ready to devour the developers at the first show of failure.

So yeah.
There's an excuse.
The Necrons are mentioned quite a few times in Codex: Space Marines. That's more fluff for them they can repeat later.
One of the pictures in the new rulebook shows Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard. I'm betting that that's going to show up along with a story in the Imperial Guard Codex. More fluff for the Dark Eldar.
They have to build it up somewhere. Afterall, it's a lot harder to write a convincing history than you might think.

If you rush it, you get the 5th Edition Space Marine Codex, which is something like a background abortion. Let's not let them do that with the Xenos, shall we?

CbmH2xX
13-02-2009, 21:41
When Dark Eldar comes out I will be so happy. Although I can wait besides I have other armies to play as well.:p

The Samaritan
13-02-2009, 21:43
yes it takes way too long, but they cant help it really.
h,, come to think of it they COULD hav done DE or IG instead of SM but noooooo the poster chilren HAVE to get redone :p
im not complaining tho, i have a marine army :p

JLBeady
13-02-2009, 21:50
I voted yes. But I understand the problem/challenge. Codex's (content) require a significant amount of resources. In addition, because the codexes must exist within an overall rule set and fluff, the editorial work has to be significantly higher than if it was a stand-alone piece.

Finally, there is also the balance that must be struck between coming out with a new codex and their customer's ability to adapt to it, both in terms of how they play and what they buy to go along with a codex.

Just imaging if the cycle was a new edition every year. Such constant flux in the rules and the instability that would probably bring would likely discourage people from picking up or staying with the game.

The problem is that there are codex's that have languished for so long while others have been updated twice or more in that same time, it has really impacted the perspective and likely decreased interest in those armies, exacerbating the problem that encourages GW to update other caudexes more often.

AUN'SHI
13-02-2009, 21:50
@lovless

Unfortunatly thats still no excuse... from what I understood someone has to have in a way a love for the DE to actully do it good... come on now.. That what people are paid for artist, sculpters, ect ect right. I mean you can do an army only cause you like it.


GW is a business I don't see why codex would suck if they did them once a month.. Unless they were incompetent. Im sure people here can probably start a new army with stories and it would be great... The DE already have a foundation so they should not be a problem.

I don't agree I think GW has the lazyness attitude to a certain extent at least thats what I feel, make everyone wait so loong for somthing that when it comes out your gonna be really happy or more like pfff finally... I usualy fall under the finally attitude.

Inach
13-02-2009, 21:54
I voted Yes.

Why?
I started only a year ago iwht W40K. Didn't know anything about the game but some RL friends did. We all bought an army and we started playing pretty soon.
I read a lot on the internet about tactics, battle reports, army setup and fluff. The fluff of the Necron with their tactics seems pretty awesome back then.

What s stupid mistake was that!

Got like 4k Necron so I coult try every setup. But again and again I was to dissapointed with the game. I was very tempted to stop but wanted to continue since my RL friends kept playing. I bought on Ebay a chaos SM army and the game became better and more fun (nvr did or will do twin Lash).

3 months ago I started daemons... I finally had the fun I seeked with 40k. Finally!
Still wish Necrons could be that fun..

So what has this to do with GW releases?
IMO GW should try to make less army books but expand them. Put all Elves together, yes DE and normals elves. All SM in one book and specific chapters added. And all chaos units in one book
Like this, they can review a codex more often and more people are up-to-date so more competative and you wont sit a very long time with a dull army.

my 37 cents

loveless
13-02-2009, 22:22
Maybe no excuse for you, Aun'shi, but it makes perfect sense to me. Anytime you force an artist, you get crap. I mean, come on, that's a poor excuse: "they're paid to do it!"

Yeah...so? If I pay you to make miniatures for an army you care nothing about, are you going to do the work to the same level of quality and care that you would for an army you liked? No, you aren't. And if you say "Of course I will! Work is work!", well, then I doubt that you'd be much of a sculptor to begin with :p

Also, have you noticed that a lot of the threads you start are on controversial topics? :p Makes for fun conversation, that's for sure.

You really can't call GW lazy when they're putting out new stuff every month. Just because it isn't stuff that everyone wants doesn't mean that they aren't doing their job.

I just got done in another thread going over everything GW is doing right in today's market. They posted an increase last quarter, and it's hardly surprising when you look at the efforts they're putting into the business.

Things with GW fall into place a lot more than you might think. If I remember right, the new Space Marine codex was being previewed around the time that the video for the Space Marine game got released. Not too long after that, we saw an uptake in Dawn of War II information, and even more recently, the beta for it.

The second one features Space Marines, Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids. That'll do a lot to spark people's interest in other aspects of the game. With a good lot of information on Space Marines and Orks, some DoW players could go to Assault on Black Reach. Likewise, it makes sense to give both of these armies shiny new toys since that's likely to be what starting players choose.

You work on the icons first, the rest second. Space Marines are the obvious one - you see a Space Marine, you think 40K. Orks, due to their proliferation in other media, are also quite iconic of 40K to the non-gaming set.

As I've said before, the Dark Eldar and the Necrons just don't have that much information on them. Hell, take a month or however long you think it would take and write up a Codex, then get a multitude of people to agree that it's effective.

Then, during that same month, find someone to illustrate it to a professional level. Then find someone to design 2-4 multipart plastic kits, a few metal character models, and maybe a box of metal models for another unit. Make sure you get someone to do some box art for them, too.

Not that easy, is it?

I've noticed that most people who play 40K don't like "just one army". In fact, I don't know anyone that only has only ever focused on one army. Most people, if they aren't happy with the looks of an army or its rules, will move onto another army, not another game. In short, GW isn't exactly losing a significant portion of their business by not releasing a new Codex for every army every year/month/week.

Hicks
13-02-2009, 22:25
With some codices being 2 editions behind it's safe to say that GW is taking way too long.

Grimtuff
13-02-2009, 22:28
@lovless

Unfortunatly thats still no excuse... from what I understood someone has to have in a way a love for the DE to actully do it good... come on now.. That what people are paid for artist, sculpters, ect ect right. I mean you can do an army only cause you like it.


Erm, yes. :eyebrows:

It is an excuse. We're all artists to an extent here in this hobby, there are patches where you have no passion for painting an army and give it up. The same goes for any artwork.

You cannot expect an artist or author to do something at the drop of a hat that requires a certain level of passion. If you cannot understand this then there really is no point in carrying on this discussion.

I've seen several people whinging in this thread that their army has not got a codex yet, such as you've been waiting "6 years for a DH codex". Really? Codex DH came out in 2003. We're barely 2 months into 2009 now, so frankly you're talking out your rectum. In 2003 (or 1998 in the case of DE) did ANYONE pick up the codex and say: "Well, this is a pile of poo. Roll on the next codex". No. They. Did. Not.

DE need a huge overhaul, look at what they did with WE in WHFB and how long that took. Boy, it was worth the wait. This is the size and magnitude of the project that we are looking at here.

The_Outsider
13-02-2009, 22:30
Depends how you define "long".

If it is a game wide update then yes, they probably do.

If it is an army by army update then no, because when GW DID knock them out at one a week it lead to some of the most unbalanced, unfluffy (as in, lack of fluff) codices ever seen. The current development cycle is far superior as it has lead to some very well playtested codices (SM, chaos, eldar, orks and daemons) compared to codices like the DE one - even at the start of 3rd ed 10 point lances shouldn't have made it through playtesting.

Occulto
13-02-2009, 23:15
Since Eldar, they've been punching out decent quality codices at a reasonable rate IMHO. I know codices like the Inquisition look a fair way off, but shortly they will have done the traditional Big Five - SM, CSM, Eldar, Orks and IG. They've also released a "new" army by way of Daemons and a couple of SM releases to keep the tills kicking over.

This means they will have covered the majority of players in the game. It seems pretty obvious to cover the big stuff first, establish a baseline for game balance before moving onto everything else.

Sarevok
13-02-2009, 23:42
GWs rules are generally not great regardless of how long they take. Might as well make it quicker.

exsulis
14-02-2009, 00:07
It takes way too long considering the lack of editing, and playtesting.

Warforger
14-02-2009, 00:20
GW rules IMO would go better off in the style of Forgeworld's way of updating rules, small updates for races at a time, I mean I'm sure inquisition players are better off using FW rules then GW rules due to superiority. Not to mention this would eliminate alot of complaints.

Creeping Dementia
14-02-2009, 00:27
I voted no, but there are reasons.

I think that the rate that GW releases codexes are fine, BUT, I think they should never release a new edition before all the armies get new books. The fact that Dark Eldar haven't had a codex since 3rd edition is just plain...dumb.

There of course is the arguement that Dark Eldar are a less popular/used army so giving other armies books makes more sense financially, maybe. But once a new book is released, how many new players for that race/army are there? new players that buy whole new armies. A bunch methinks. When do you guys think Lizardmen were more popular/selling better, right now, or a few months ago. I personally think GW would sell more models releasing the DE codex than they did releasing the C:SM a few months ago. Dark Eldar players are starved for new models and tactics and many players wanting to get into DE are waiting for an update, but tons of players already have all sorts of marines, and are mainly just buying the new novelties.

I don't even play DE, don't even want to either, but the whole situation is pretty silly.

AUN'SHI
14-02-2009, 00:31
I work in the real world. I get paid to do what I do. I don't necessary love or hate it or even started good at it. But now that I got paid/trained/worked/ I'm good at what I do and I do it.

If someone paid me to sculpt something/make rules/art ect id get training for it and do it. This is a hobby yes but a job none the less. If the case was Ill only do an army Id like I don't think things will get done. Just my own thought.

GW has codex that have been around since 3rd edition. Yet instead of makeing updates to these a new space marine codex came out. I don't know about you, but to me something there is not right (this is only an example). Sure they make more money off the space marines but what about other players?

Yea people tend to have more than one army but some of us can't afford to keep buying so many different things.

My apologies for the lazyness bit I didn't mean to offend but I look back at some of the codex I have DE, blood angles, space wolves, daemonhunter, necron, Tau even. And I really can fathom as to why these have notbeen up dated yet.. I don't know are they not a liked army?

I think Ill stick by Gw takes to long to produce codex's. But again this OMHO

erick99
14-02-2009, 00:40
i voted yes.
they get rumors going, then players go "aw, *****, whaddo i do now."
they are nervous about what changes will happen and how their playing methods will change. they just need to be faster...:skull:

Corrode
14-02-2009, 00:44
Aun'shi, I appreciate that you hold down a job and I'm not questioning your ability to do that. But have you ever actually done anything creative, professionally? Not 'came up with this week's Powerpoint layout', I mean writing, art, whatever. There is a world of difference in quality between what someone produces when they're interested in and excited about a product and what they produce when they dislike it or plain don't want anything to do with it.

The cited reason from GW for the disappearance of the Squats was that nobody could think of a good way to re-do them, and further no-one wanted to try and take on the challenge because it didn't interest them. Dark Eldar are much the same - they have pretty bad fluff, a pretty terrible model range, and as far as I remember they were a crazy plan of GavT's that never worked out (this may or may not be true).

The reason Space Marines are so updateable is, as has been said above, they are the most popular and most fleshed-out of all the races available, closely followed by Eldar, Orks and Chaos Marines. The average artist doesn't have to be particularly inspired to draw another SM, and the average writer can churn out a bit of Space Marine page-filler in his lunch break because all he has to do is rehash something that's already been produced. Eldar, Orks and Chaos all share this wealth of data from which the creative types can draw to influence their own work.

The important thing here is that at one time or another SOMEONE was the driving force in the studio behind these races. I've seen it said that Jes created the entire 2nd Edition Eldar range on his own, and had a strong sway over the 3rd edition design too. That kind of clear vision is shared by the Ork range, too - look how well the line's aged, and then compare Dark Eldar. The model range is all over the place, and the only consistent theme is 'spiky bits, and funny hats'. You have the sleek sexiness of the Raider and to an extent the Reaver Jetbike, and then the Archon with the weird fleshy face thing, and the BDSM Wyches, and Warriors who look like steaming piles of ****. It takes a LOT more effort to turn that into a coherent, attractive army ready to put on a shelf and given the choice between Marines and Dark Eldar the studio is always going to opt for Marines unless someone has a strong vision for DE and is in a position to push and implement that vision. So far that someone has been lacking.

Lame Duck
14-02-2009, 00:45
One problem is the longer an army goes without having an updated codex players start thinking "it MUST be coming out soon/I'll wait so I don't have to change it half way through" and put starting it on hold until the new codex comes out.

GW sees those armies not selling as well as others, so don't see any real need to update them.

AUN'SHI
14-02-2009, 01:25
Aun'shi, I appreciate that you hold down a job and I'm not questioning your ability to do that. But have you ever actually done anything creative, professionally? Not 'came up with this week's Powerpoint layout', I mean writing, art, whatever. There is a world of difference in quality between what someone produces when they're interested in and excited about a product and what they produce when they dislike it or plain don't want anything to do with it.


Professionally no.. I got no argument... But I mean if your going to get into the business of sculpting espically for a "company" Id say it's very similar to a "powerpoint layout" in that you need to be good at it, or become good at it or it aint gonna fly.

Now if I'm understanding correctly, because there are armies that sculpters/writers/artist might not want to touch because of crappy fluff/models/art (which can all be changed just to point out). What do you tell the people that have those armies? "Ok guys sorry no more DE, or Tau, or Necron ect ect... because we don't like them":confused: aaah I don't think that will fly either.

Be as artistic/creative as you want. Yeah sure these guys might have crappy fluff/models ect.. I mean creativity right? change it no? I'm sorry not likeing something and, that being the reason why armies are not made I don't know how much I like the idea.

GW has armies that have already been created. People have their armies and codex GW should just stay true to what they got and keep going with it.

Vaktathi
14-02-2009, 01:31
For some armies no, but for others definitely yes.

There is *NO* reason that Orks had to wait as long as they did for an update, and GW's actions concerning Dark Eldar are simply unacceptable.

Corrode
14-02-2009, 01:45
It's not just about sculptors being told to do it, though. It's not like someone at GW has said 'ok guys, we're gonna do the Dark Eldar next' and the sculptors just turned around and went 'lol no.'

Individual sculptors are likely, at some point in their careers, to work on projects they're not particularly enthused about. Depending on the preferences of the particular sculptor, that's possibly even most of their projects. Same for fluff guys, same for rules writers, same for anyone in the business.

That's perfectly fine in the context of a project where the art direction is well defined, like with Space Marines. They aren't going to produce the best models in the world, or the best fluff, or whatever, but their individual pieces will be acceptable, because they're professionals and they turn out their work to the standard that's been set. They can refer to older work, and to the array of data available, and produce something which matches up to that.

A project like the Tau probably worked the same way. In that case it was something entirely new, but GW had a clear art direction worked out ahead of time, with a lead designer who knew what he wanted and could reasonably tell the sculptors, the artists, the fluff guys the general themes of what he needed. Particularly given that it was a new project, there was quite possibly a much longer period of bouncing ideas around and working things out than a Codex would normally see (does anyone have the WD from when the Tau were released back in 3rd ed?)

The Dark Eldar are different. They have an established background, but it's not very good. They have an established aesthetic, but it's not very good. I know that in your eyes it's fine because 'you can just change it', but this is back to creativity. Two things need to be taken into account:

1) No individual artist, sculptor etc. is just going to up and decide to 'do Dark Eldar.' It's a team effort, and someone in the higher-ups has to say 'Ok guys, here's what we're going for, give me this this and this.' If nobody's doing that, the artistic people have no direction. Further, they're likely to be busy with the projects which ARE coming through - remember that often a Codex has a two-year lead-up. It's not like they're all just sitting around waiting to update C: SM.

2) The other option is that instead of doing it half-arsed, GW starts cutting armies entirely. This is what happens in all other creative media - if an author loses interest in a series, they might finish it out of loyalty to their fans, but equally they might well fill out the terms of their publishing contract and call it a day. TV shows get cancelled all the time based on a lack of willpower to keep the show going, bands split up because of 'creative differences', painters stop painting unless they actually need to. GW themselves have done it, ruthlessly culling the Squats as well as the Slann. It's a little different because often people haven't sunk an ongoing amount of money into that band/show/series, but it's the common thread in most creative efforts.

Put simply, GW produces the things which appeal to GW and which make them money in the easiest way. A full Dark Eldar overhaul doesn't appeal to them, and they have other priorities which will make them more money and about which their studio can get excited. Yes, it sucks for those people who put good money into DE (I have a small DE force myself, collected before I realised I was awful at playing them). But even if GW was producing a codex a month, that doesn't mean that Dark Eldar would get done - it just means that we'd have to put up with even more Codex: Ultramarines fluff ;)

RichBlake
14-02-2009, 03:18
Professionally no.. I got no argument... But I mean if your going to get into the business of sculpting espically for a "company" Id say it's very similar to a "powerpoint layout" in that you need to be good at it, or become good at it or it aint gonna fly.

I've got 40 unpainted Guardsmen lying about because, right now, I can't be arsed to paint 40 generic Guardsmen. Everyone with large armies suffers from this in the Hobby.

If I was asked to design, paint and write background for an army I didn't like or give a crap about then I doubt I could be bothered to do that either.

Without trying to make you seem stupid do you have any idea how a business runs? No offence to you but the vast majority of the jobs, probably including yours, can be done with relatively little training by someone with half a brain. With jobs like designing models and creative things people either can do it or they can't. Sure you can improve on your skills but GW has some of the very best modellers and painters going. If they say "Do army A" and their employee who has worked for them for 8 years says "No, I hate Army A, I think they are boring" what will they do? Fire them and watch them waltz into another highly paid job? No.

Also the DE, DH Necron and WH books and some of the biggest cheese going. DE have loads of things that are broken in the current rules set, DH can rape Daemon armies (as expected) but when included as allies they can be dangerous too. Don't even get me started on how beardy WHs are, they beat the snot out of everyone. The Necron Cube (2 Lords with Res Orbs and as many warriors and monoliths as you can't afford) is a practically unbeatable list, if boring.

Really if anyone is getting their ass kicked when using DE, DH, WH or Necrons then they are doing something wrong. OK Space Marines and Orks are generally better then the other codexes as GW started taking a certain approach towards what is and isn't OK in 40K (i.e. each army has more "broken" things, but these balance out nicely). Against other armies though there shouldn't be as much of a problem.

The only major criticism is the lack of fluff for the Necrons and DE, if you feel that passionately about them though write a story and see if it can be published.

Desalbert
14-02-2009, 05:22
I think they've certainly taken too long as far as Dark Eldar are concerned! They haven't recieved any attention since 1998, and they're still considered an army in the universe (not like the Sqauts)

All I can do is hope that there is some truth to a 2010 DE release... But yes, I voted yes, they do take too long, for the simplen fact that they've produced multiple space marine and chaos entries and even Tau, whilst leaving DE in the dust...

I guess the problem is, is that, as a business, they play favorites.... which makes sense for them but is agonizing to us (me).

*sigh*

WhiteKnight
14-02-2009, 05:30
I really think that GW should try to speed up production. I've waited a long time for new BoC, Catachan, and HE models and its really upsetting me that they still have the models from 5th ed still in 7th ed.

Ivellis
14-02-2009, 05:57
How can people compare the jobs of the sculptors and designers to us painting and modelling our minis? Seriously?

They get payed to do it, it's that simple, if I was payed to make an army I wasn't that interested in I would become interested in it.

It's their job to do the work, you don't just turn it aside because it's too hard or you don't like it as much. And if they're good at their job then it's not going to be bad just because they aren't as interested. (Or at least it shouldn't be if they really are professional.)

laudarkul
14-02-2009, 07:12
I voted YES see the case of the DE and IG. Perhaps they shoul try to bring all the armies on the same level as the Rulebook. I know that for a new codex requires a lot of time for modelling/playtesting/writing fluff but they shoul have by now some workgroups focused to one race primarily (x is the chief and works with y and z) and in their free time they could improve the rules/work on other codexes (x work on A codex, y to B codex).
With all the respect to the GW, they should perhaps listen sometimes to the stuff that the players are posting on the forums (ok not all the stupid and non-constructive crap like "SM are broken/Marneus is broken"). This just for getting an idea

Grimtuff
14-02-2009, 07:31
How can people compare the jobs of the sculptors and designers to us painting and modelling our minis? Seriously?

They get payed to do it, it's that simple, if I was payed to make an army I wasn't that interested in I would become interested in it.

It's their job to do the work, you don't just turn it aside because it's too hard or you don't like it as much. And if they're good at their job then it's not going to be bad just because they aren't as interested. (Or at least it shouldn't be if they really are professional.)

Because it's the same thing. The only difference is their's is done as a profession. So, by your logic you would consider any ***** the designers put out as well, you're "letting someone feed his family". :rolleyes:

Bull
Crap

I would have thought there would be a slight tinge of empathy in this thread as we all lose interest in armies sometimes and can understand that sculpting professionally=/=sitting in an office doing a spreadsheet. But obviously not. :eyebrows: As, apparently as "you get paid" to do both, you have to enjoy it.

Riiiighttttt.....

Corrode
14-02-2009, 11:49
I really think that GW should try to speed up production. I've waited a long time for new BoC, Catachan, and HE models and its really upsetting me that they still have the models from 5th ed still in 7th ed.

This is probably a more important point than 'omg my army book hasn't been updated in AGES'. A few of the ranges have actually been updated in the meantime and still have old, ugly-looking models (hey there half the Beasts of Chaos range). There should probably be more of an effort made to ensure that everything in the range gets brought up to scratch, rather than just bits and pieces. The new 'second wave' approach should help with that though, since they don't have to rush quite as much stuff into production all at once.

40kdhs
14-02-2009, 18:02
GW needs to focus on the current army books instead of supplements such as cities of death and apocolypse because they don't have a long term effect in the long run. In the beginning, some people were excited about it but this excitement is NOT going to last. Why do you bother to produce a supplement when you know that it's not going to last long?

Corrode
14-02-2009, 18:06
Cities of Death was arguably a bit of a flap, but I don't think Apocalypse can really be called a failure. ;)

AUN'SHI
14-02-2009, 18:13
Without trying to make you seem stupid do you have any idea how a business runs? No offence to you but the vast majority of the jobs, probably including yours, can be done with relatively little training by someone with half a brain. With jobs like designing models and creative things people either can do it or they can't. Sure you can improve on your skills but GW has some of the very best modellers and painters going. If they say "Do army A" and their employee who has worked for them for 8 years says "No, I hate Army A, I think they are boring" what will they do? Fire them and watch them waltz into another highly paid job? No.


I was going to let the lie but when I read this comment I had to say somthing. I don't agree at all your argument is completely false.. without making you look dumb... Do you really think that people are born with a gift of creativity/sculpting so only special people can do it? So what your saying is people can not train to paint/sculpt. Dude hate to break it to ya but it's like a job you get trained you do reasearch you will gain the ability to do it.

Anyone with half a brain can do what I do or most jobs out there... making a comment like that is probably the most foolish thing Ive ever heard in my life. You don't know what I do or what others do. you generalizing like that should never be allowed... What so sculpters/artist are better than people that work the "majority" of jobs out there.. Are you serious...:wtf:

Id have to say your argument is the worst Ive seen in years. Im sure if you did what I do without any training you'd probably sit there like a monkey scratching your **** think what the hell do I do.. I love to see this... Just as if I started modeling or somthing along that line Id have little to no idea how to start. But Give me or you training then you'll see we would both get better at it.

I'm sorry if I may of sounded hurtful but your remark is not warrented and completly false... Sorry I end this here with a yeah thanks for coming out:mad:

Sorry forgot to add keep an eye on the poll. nuff said.

Corrode
14-02-2009, 18:31
You can train people to the limit of their natural ability to do things, and a lot can be compensated for by hard work and effort. Absolutely agreed. I was a terrible painter when I started, I'm still not going to win any Golden Daemons but I'm no longer ashamed to put my models on the table in public. Over about six years of painting (disregarding the two year break) I learned more and more techniques, and got better as a result of sheer practice. This is what you're talking about.

My girlfriend's been painting for about a month. She's painted all of about 25-30 models. She already makes me jealous and she's barely even started learning. She had an advantage - she has me to tell her things that I didn't know when I started out. Drybrushing and highlighting aren't intuitive techniques, they're learned, and you can develop very quickly if someone sits down with you and says 'ok, this is how you do it'. However, I can already see that in a year or two, when I'm still making a supreme effort to get my models looking good, she's going to be effortlessly outmatching me. That's talent, and it can't be taught, only emulated.

The other thing with training is that you have to have a base to start from. As I said, highlighting and drybrushing aren't intuitive techniques. If you sit down the average person in front of a high-quality miniature, or any other piece of art, and ask them to explain how it was produced, they aren't going to be able to tell you. They might be able to pick out what makes it good - 'I like how the skin stands out,' 'I like the shading,' things like that, but if you gave them a brush and told them to copy it they probably wouldn't get it right. If you sat down with them and explained how it worked and trained them extensively they probably could, but by themselves they quite possibly would NEVER have worked it out.

Again, this is where the talent and creativity come in. You can say 'it's your job, do it' all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that it isn't that easy. Comparing an office job to something like painting or sculpting is apples to oranges. You can train most people to do the average office job, because most office jobs aren't very demanding and don't require any particular skillset to do. They're ENTIRELY made up of learned behaviours - any idiot can do data entry, or shuffle paper according to a system, or process orders. The sculptors are analogous to the guy who DESIGNED the system, not the guys who're working with it.

Put more simply, any idiot can sculpt a miniature, just like any idiot can operate a spreadsheet or slap together a shoddy powerpoint or a middle-of-the-road novel. It takes talent and drive to design, develop and sculpt a GOOD miniature (and even more for a full range), just like it takes talent and drive to build the entire system a company operates, or write a bestseller. Inspiration doesn't come from 'I'm getting paid,' that's what motivates a guy to put out a bland, boring, first-Dark-Eldar-range style. ;)

Again, I'm not insinuating that you're in any way an idiot or that your job is worthless, but this probably isn't your field. And yes, to answer your opening question, people ARE born with a gift for creativity, and only special people reach the highest echelons of their field. It's unfair and arbitrary, but genetic advantages account for a good deal of success ;)

40kdhs
15-02-2009, 00:34
Hiring more quality codex writers will definitely speed up the release of AB.

Corrode
15-02-2009, 00:48
According to this thread 'quality codex writers' means 'anyone with a pulse and a week long training course.'

****, if that's all it needs then I'll do it.

Occulto
15-02-2009, 00:59
Cities of Death was arguably a bit of a flap, but I don't think Apocalypse can really be called a failure. ;)

Cities of Death will always suffer from the fact it's not really suited for pickup games. Apart from the obvious terrain, you need things to represent stratagems and it works a lot better with dedicated lists.

That tends to mean organising things in advance - not just rocking up to the local club/store.

40kdhs
15-02-2009, 01:18
According to this thread 'quality codex writers' means 'anyone with a pulse and a week long training course.'

****, if that's all it needs then I'll do it.

You are talking about experience, aren't you? It has to start at some place. Why don't you start to have it right now and right there? You'll gain experiences if you don't start.

Thylacine
15-02-2009, 01:46
In the case of DE and SW's, yes. A new codex every four to five years coinciding with a new rules release would be perfect. White Dwarf and Chapter Approved (who remembers CA in the WD and the CA books?) are the perfect way to update a codex if the rules designers and modellers come up with something new for the game between codex and rule book releases.

The system we have now makes some codices all but useless for tournament play, with arguments between players and tournament officials. Overall GW needs to supply well written, correctly edited and play-tested books on a regular basis. I think that the play-testing is done by too many yes men in the system and that the articles we see in WD about such and such new army are way too biased to the new army.

EXAMPLE Remember when the new SM Terminators came out and the play-test was written up in WD? Terminators verses Necrons, this was the only time I have ever seen a Necron army without a Resection Orb! This was done to make the new Terminators look good so that they would sell even more of them. GW knows that so many of the younger players take what is written in WD as gospel.

The FAQ's don't help much with the codices we have now as they often contain mistakes, poorly worded sentences that leave one guessing as to intent or play and they take far too long to implement a correction. How long does it take from the release of an FAQ, to take notice of players feedback on a mistake or an ambiguity in the rules and to open the file and rewrite the offending line? Too bloody long!

Corrode
15-02-2009, 02:00
I've mostly been defensive of GW in this thread, but I will agree that much of their output is poorly-edited. I can sympathise, because it's easy to write something and think 'how can anyone NOT understand?' but they really should have a better QA process.

Warforger
15-02-2009, 06:55
@Thylacine And remember when Daemons came out how the Dark Angels beat them? GW is not forcing them to do these things

40kdhs
15-02-2009, 16:27
I really think that GW should try to speed up production. I've waited a long time for new BoC, Catachan, and HE models and its really upsetting me that they still have the models from 5th ed still in 7th ed.

I play HE too. I hope that our HE horses will look as good as chaos' horses because ours look so 'skinny'.:D

I can't wait to see HE SM and DP models.

Fellblade
15-02-2009, 16:45
I would say GW took too long to release new army books and codices, but they seem to have stepped it up in the last 18 months or so. Right now, the release rate seems almost right, but 40k does feel like its lagging a little.

I think the reason we're seeing more Fantasy army books is because the chaos book was split into 3 parts and after the Daemons release, they've been doing damage control on the other two book to get new editions out within a short time frame.