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View Full Version : Skinks-nerfed for sure.



Wolfden
13-02-2009, 17:12
Skink Skirmishers are now officialy nerfed in the new Lizardmen book.

Cons:
+1 pt. more expensive.
Scout ability removed.
Screening ability removed.
Max. unit size reduced.
Exchange for javelins and shields is no longer free

Pros:
+1 LD

That is a 5:1 nerf ratio. Now before all of you non-Lizardmen players chime in, take a moment to think about this happening to one of your best core choices. Make that unit 1 pt. more expensive, take away its special abilities and then reduce its max. unit size. Let that sink in for a moment or two then respond.

phoenixlaw
13-02-2009, 17:16
As a Lizardmen player I think the list needed it. It gives players a reason to bring something other than skinks. They were perhaps a little undercosted before. I will still use skinks. Just maybe just one or 2 small units of them rather than a whole army of them. (which is how I think they should be used according to the background) Saurus should be the backbone of the army fluffwise.

loveless
13-02-2009, 17:17
Cons:
+1 pt. more expensive.
Scout ability removed.
Screening ability removed.
Max. unit size reduced.This point is null as Krox can up their size...

Pros:
+1 LD
Can take Kroxigor




Fixed it for you a bit ;) Also, they can be ranked now - could they do that in the last book? I forget...

And let's face it - scouting units with massed poisoned ranged attacks are not fun for any opponent, regardless of what army they originate in.

W0lf
13-02-2009, 17:20
Sorry but this is feeble.

Max unit size is not a nerf.
Also loss of skink screen is a nerf for kroxigor not skinks.

They cant scout? Boo hoo. M6 skirmishers in an army with flyers and M6 scouts. My heart bleeds.

And so what if they were nerfed? They needed it. The only people i feel sorry for are the ones who prefer javs and have to pay more now (why?)

Volker the Mad Fiddler
13-02-2009, 17:21
Skinks are now officialy nerfed in the new Lizardmen book.

Cons:
+1 pt. more expensive.
Scout ability removed.
Screening ability removed.
Max. unit size reduced.

Pros:
+1 LD

That is a 4:1 nerf ratio. Now before all of you non-Lizardmen players chime in, take a moment to think about this happening to one of your best core choices. Make that unit 1 pt. more expensive, take away its special abilities and then reduce its max. unit size. Let that sink in for a moment or two then respond.

Actually, skinks are 1 point cheaper. Have no max unit size. Have the screening ability replaced with the ability to rank in a unit with Krox for fast, decently hitting, fear causing, flankers.

If you are talking about skink skirmishers, sorry I don't have a lot of sympathy. Sauri are now possibly the strongest point for point fighting infantry in the game, and I have too many memories of Lizardman lists which consisted only of skinks and magic who always seemed to have multiple water features to hide in on the table.

Plus, your nerfed skinks are still the equal of [if not better than] my archers for a point less a model. Finally, I don't really see how the max unit size of 20 is that big a deal.

theunwantedbeing
13-02-2009, 17:21
Nobody cares....go away and complain elsewhere, I sugguest the inside of a cupboard.

The only army that got nerfed here was the skink skirmish army that was backed by a heap of kroxigor.
And nobody liked anyone that used that list anyway.
So nobody of importance atually feels this nerf.

scarletsquig
13-02-2009, 17:25
On the flip side, Saurus with spears are now pretty sick.

2d6
13-02-2009, 17:31
Firstly the 4:1 nerf ratio is meaningless,

e.g. had they made it

-1 WS
-1 I
- Scout
- Max unit size

Blowpipes S10

would that make skinks worse???

The effectiveness of the unit is a bigger concern than raw stats and +/-

The loss of scouting does change things, true skinks can no longer do things they used to do.
In 6th skinks were TOO good, when they could scout, not be march blocked and give out 2x poisoned attacks they did more damage than any other unit in the LM army and that was plain wrong... (I personally believe skinks were THE reason that skirmishers can now be march blocked)

Max unit size reduction is not a nerf at all, lots of small units of skinks is far more effective than one big unit, (can split fire, or focus fire, won't all run from one panic/terror check)

Rather than focussing on whether they are nerfed or not, the more important question is are they a valid, useful choice in the current army list,
The answer to that question is a resounding yes, so there's nothing to complain about, cheap 2x poison atacks is an incredibly useful ability to have.
If they had made skinks unusable, or poor value for points then you'd have a valid cause to complain...

TheMav80
13-02-2009, 17:38
I only have two complaints.

One, is having to pay an extra point to get Javs back. So 8 points for what used to cost 6. They start with Javelins, lose them to Skirmish, then you have to pay another point to get them back. Doesn't make sense.

Two, is the loss of scouting. Which wouldn't be so bad if Chameleon skinks were better.

Tymell
13-02-2009, 17:43
In case anyone ever wondered, this thread is precisely why this place is sometimes referred to "whineseer".

Surely using that very phrase is itself whining? ;) The internet is all about complaining, I've never seen Warseering standing out in that respect.

But anyway, keeping on topic: this is just why I dislike the term "nerfing" (apart from the whole "leet-boy" connotation). Most of the time when people talk about something being nerfed, it's usually folks complaining that something they use/like is now somehow not as powerful. Regardless of the context, overall balance, or whether the thing in question was over-powered before.

Skinks aren't as good as they used to be, but to me, as a Lizardmen player, this just helps clean up a problem and balance out the army.

2d6
13-02-2009, 17:44
You CAN get javelins a point cheaper if you lose skirmish,
Though i agree I don't see why they cost an extra point, always seemed like the worse option of the 2 to me even when they were the same cost.

Shamfrit
13-02-2009, 17:50
Thrown Weapons on Skirmishers is more powerful than in a rank and file unit, for obvious reasons, and that's why they're more expensive. What with no movement penelties, M6 and Skirmishers and all that.

2d6
13-02-2009, 18:03
Yes I do realise the advantages of skinks skirmishing with ranged weapons,
the capitalisation on can was supposed to sound hesitant rather than good,
like in the sentence
You CAN go out and buy Lateralis
(but you'd be much better of picking up AEnima or Undertow....)

Griefbringer
13-02-2009, 18:22
And how is the reduction of the maximum unit size really an issue for skink skirmishers? As skirmishers, big unit size is more of a hindrance than help for them. Did somebody really take them in 25 skirmisher units previously?

As for scouting, it was something that you had to pay extra anyway. So what they lost is the upgrade possibility, not a special ability from their basic profile.

And I presume those players who really want to do a bit of scouting can take some chameleon skinks.

Dokushin
13-02-2009, 18:46
Skinks are now officialy nerfed in the new Lizardmen book.

Cons:
+1 pt. more expensive.
Scout ability removed.
Screening ability removed.
Max. unit size reduced. Good grief, boy, how big WERE your Skink Skirmisher units?

Pros:
+1 LD +1 Cold Blooded LD, going fom 50% to 70%, HUGE

That is a 4:1 nerf ratio. Now before all of you non-Lizardmen players chime in, take a moment to think about this happening to one of your best core choices. Make that unit 1 pt. more expensive, take away its special abilities and then reduce its max. unit size. Let that sink in for a moment or two then respond.

The +1 LD I really believe was worth 2 points, maybe 3. Being able to scout for an extra point was already uncomfortably good, and being able to scout with LD coldblooded 7? That'd be ridiculous. Man up and take some chameleon skinks, they rock.

nagash42
13-02-2009, 19:23
you also get a shield when you pay for the javalin don't you?

GrogsnotPowwabomba
13-02-2009, 19:31
Good. Skinks were too good before.

N810
13-02-2009, 21:10
Skinks are now officialy nerfed in the new Lizardmen book.

Cons:
+1 pt. more expensive.
Scout ability removed.
Screening ability removed.
Max. unit size reduced.

Pros:
+1 LD

That is a 4:1 nerf ratio. Now before all of you non-Lizardmen players chime in, take a moment to think about this happening to one of your best core choices. Make that unit 1 pt. more expensive, take away its special abilities and then reduce its max. unit size. Let that sink in for a moment or two then respond.

also on the plus side...

ranked skinks with javelins (6th ed. could only have hand weapons and only in special list)
skink kroxigor formation as core
ability of ranked skinks to take full command (hero, musician, standard).

Spyral
13-02-2009, 21:44
I play southlands mostly... I'm quite tempted to not play warhammer until the next edition and just play warmachine/hordes.... lol

but the +1 LD is better with the cold bloodedness.
That siad you have to pay for javelins and shields... that's perverse..

Shimmergloom
13-02-2009, 23:08
Skinks are now officialy nerfed in the new Lizardmen book.

Cons:
+1 pt. more expensive.
Scout ability removed.
Screening ability removed.
Max. unit size reduced.

Pros:
+1 LD

That is a 4:1 nerf ratio. Now before all of you non-Lizardmen players chime in, take a moment to think about this happening to one of your best core choices. Make that unit 1 pt. more expensive, take away its special abilities and then reduce its max. unit size. Let that sink in for a moment or two then respond.

Gosh, I wonder what I would do if that happened to one of my core choices.

Probably be jumping for joy since it happened to 7 of them and not just 1.

Genrazn
13-02-2009, 23:59
We may have gained 1 point for blowpipes. But in the end, what we gained is something much better the ability to redirect the charge. For cheaper then last and I usually just scouted my skinks anywho.

I would rather have a bunch of horde screens for my saurus with the ability to set up a flank charge. Then instant dieing skinks in combat who just brins enemy units closer to my guys heh.

Either or its not much of a nerf more of a boon in my opinon.

Gaargod
14-02-2009, 00:13
N810, you also forgot to add to the list 'Starting [insert game system/army here], tell me what to do' and of course the ever annoying '[Insert stupid question here]'


Anyways, to skinks - they no longer run around the enemy all the time. Who cares, they now have 2 purposes in life: a) soak up missle fire and more importantly b) redirect the crap out of enemies to charged by saurus. Which is, when you consider they are M4 infantry, pretty damm amazing. And as it was stated before, skinks are core. 70 points for 10 M6 2xpoison shots skirmishers for core! Most armies would literally kill for that.

Pavic
14-02-2009, 01:00
Everyone under the sun knew that skinks would be nerfed. They were too good and could make games miserable. I know because I tried out a big skink list and it was the least fun game I have ever won.

To be honest, I almost fell over when I saw that they got the leadership bump, mostly because my dice always end up with a total of 6. Now I imagine that my skinks will be rallying much more often.

TheMav80
14-02-2009, 03:40
And how is the reduction of the maximum unit size really an issue for skink skirmishers? As skirmishers, big unit size is more of a hindrance than help for them. Did somebody really take them in 25 skirmisher units previously?

As for scouting, it was something that you had to pay extra anyway. So what they lost is the upgrade possibility, not a special ability from their basic profile.

And I presume those players who really want to do a bit of scouting can take some chameleon skinks.

Yes if I REALLY want a scouting unit I can take a crappy one. :rolleyes:

Sarah S
14-02-2009, 03:52
Uh. What makes the current Chameleon Skinks crappier than the old Scouting Skinks?

Also, maybe GW should have removed Skinks altogether just to teach you Lizardmen players some manners. They did the same to WoC afterall.

Znail
14-02-2009, 03:56
I agree, Skinks were nerfed.
I also think they deserved it.
Carry on! :cool:

John Vaughan
14-02-2009, 04:04
I'll sympathize for your pains as soon as half of your army is removed from the army book (*hint hint* daemons). Hontestly, it makes them more of a support unit, rather than core units that are easily spooked by anything that causes terror.

Neckutter
14-02-2009, 04:48
Nobody cares....go away and complain elsewhere, I sugguest the inside of a cupboard.

ok, mr sunshine!

i dont feel that the skinks got a nerf at all. i still haveta pay a bit more for my skinks with javelins that skirmish, but look at saurus. saurus got a HUGE boost in terms of viability and even a decreased point cost. not to mention slann, fully upgraded, dont cost 700 points anymore.

TheMav80
14-02-2009, 06:09
Uh. What makes the current Chameleon Skinks crappier than the old Scouting Skinks?

Also, maybe GW should have removed Skinks altogether just to teach you Lizardmen players some manners. They did the same to WoC afterall.

They cost twice as much and take up a special slot, but are just as easy to kill. Plus, lost their special deployment rules and now can only Scout.

Dokushin
14-02-2009, 06:31
They cost twice as much and take up a special slot, but are just as easy to kill. Plus, lost their special deployment rules and now can only Scout.

They are most definitely not just as easy to kill. They get an additional -1 to shooting against them, which typically (BS4 at long range or BS3 at short) cuts the casualties in half. So there's your points made up for right there...

...and on top of that, they're BS4, which just so happens to be a critical breakpoint for blowpipes. BS4 means you can move and doubleshoot at over half range and still hit on 6's, allowing poison. Regular scouting skinks couldn't do that, hence all the javelin vs blowpipe debates. Chameleon skinks can doubleshoot poison at 18" as skirmishing scouts that dodge bullets like no one else. Bonus points: join with a character. Double bonus points: Put in water. -3!

DarkstarSabre
14-02-2009, 07:40
Skinks are now officialy nerfed in the new Lizardmen book.

Cons:
+1 pt. more expensive.
Scout ability removed.
Screening ability removed.
Max. unit size reduced.

Pros:
+1 LD

That is a 4:1 nerf ratio. Now before all of you non-Lizardmen players chime in, take a moment to think about this happening to one of your best core choices. Make that unit 1 pt. more expensive, take away its special abilities and then reduce its max. unit size. Let that sink in for a moment or two then respond.


You have NO idea how valuable +1 LD is in an army with the Cold Blooded special rule, do you?

Necromancer2
14-02-2009, 13:34
Because of this "Saurus should be the backbone of the army fluffwise."

Skinks were not nerft. I was sick of seeing nothing but skinks as troops.

Lijacote
14-02-2009, 14:50
"Hey guys I made this army list, check it out

<army list>

what do you think?"


"Skink your skinks"

Skinks needed a slight downgrade. They're not useless, far from it, even in this edition. I'd kill to have skinks.

TheMav80
14-02-2009, 15:37
They are most definitely not just as easy to kill. They get an additional -1 to shooting against them, which typically (BS4 at long range or BS3 at short) cuts the casualties in half. So there's your points made up for right there...

...and on top of that, they're BS4, which just so happens to be a critical breakpoint for blowpipes. BS4 means you can move and doubleshoot at over half range and still hit on 6's, allowing poison. Regular scouting skinks couldn't do that, hence all the javelin vs blowpipe debates. Chameleon skinks can doubleshoot poison at 18" as skirmishing scouts that dodge bullets like no one else. Bonus points: join with a character. Double bonus points: Put in water. -3!

From shooting, sure. That's not how anyone kills skirmishers. You use things that autohit or kill them in CC.

And just to be clear, I am not calling this the end of the world or anything. I don't claim the LM suck now because of this. It is just a change I do not like. I did not find Chameleon Skinks to be worth taking in the last book and I don't see them worth taking this time either. Taking a group won't cripple you or anything like that. They aren't quite that bad.

Genrazn
14-02-2009, 16:13
Well Chameleon skinks may be worth taking as they now... scout heh. But all in all what we gained is something crucial and the nerf really wasnt much of a nerf. Imo We benefited greatly then 1 point more heh. Who honestly is going to complain about that?

Seriously cheap redirecters and screeners. Stand and shoot reactions ftw.

Either or IM glad we got them. Ranked skinks ftw.

Coram_Boy
14-02-2009, 16:32
Scouting made skinks too good. They are worse without it, but now they are fairer to play against, and with the leadership boost, they actually have a chance of rallying now. I think they are still good, just not too good now.

Rioghan Murchadha
14-02-2009, 18:38
From shooting, sure. That's not how anyone kills skirmishers. You use things that autohit or kill them in CC.


You realize that once all the army books are updated to 7th edition, there will be no more autohitting missile fire right? Oh sure, there are magic missiles, but you have to successfully cast them, and then they can be dispelled (which the LM are quite good at). In fact, I think the only thing left with the release of LM is the dwarf organ gun.

TheMav80
14-02-2009, 18:45
And Templates.

Not always the best thing for Skirmishers, but you don't roll to hit and your guys can only be 1 inch apart.

Shield of Freedom
14-02-2009, 18:57
Ratling guns

Horus38
14-02-2009, 18:58
Yes indeed they were nerfed, and I'm glad to see it. Now the meta list can shift away from no saurus to a blend of skinks supporting the true warrior caste.

slingersam
14-02-2009, 19:22
My skinks yesterday in a small 500 point game, they took out 7 chaos
warriors in 1 turn, I thought that was rediculas, but in all truth that
was my first game ever, and they did me proud, also my sarraus warriors
did jack, which pissed me off.

vamp
14-02-2009, 20:20
So their is an army for WFB called the skinks? Cause I was under the impression that its the entire army as a whole that we must consider when pondering the questions of game balance. And as an entire army goes the lizardmen definitely got a boost to top tier in power.



That aside a unit of 12 skinks that can stand and fire 24 times wounding on rolls of 6's to hit will never have my pity. I have seen units this size kill monsters that charge them in one stand and shoo action. ( eagles to hydras). Sorry but some could argue that they didn't get enough nerfing based on this alone. Fire twice? Poison attacks?


GW did a great job with the new lizardmen army list. They are great the way the are. I guess we have to put up with every now and then some idiot ( and i'm not saying the guy who posted this thread is an idiot) is going to say an army released by GW is over powered or under powered. Or that their is no way to beat this army. Change your tactics. Adapt and overcome. All armies have their weakness's and strengths and each unit an army can take plays an integral part of that armies over all balance.

Coram_Boy
14-02-2009, 21:09
Calling skinks a weakness or a nerfed unit is a bit strange - point for point, they are some of the best skirmishers in a game, given that 12 of them can still quite reliably kill a giant in two rounds of shots, and pretty much the same to any army with low armor saves (golden against tomb kings light cavalry :D)

TheMav80
14-02-2009, 22:43
I sure expected the price of Skinks to go up a point or two. I just did not expect them to take away scouting totally. Which still isn't as bad as having to pay extra points to give my skinks their Javs back.

thegreenknight0
14-02-2009, 23:13
I just want to know why, since they essentially made the lizardmen the same army they were in their first book, skinks didn't get their 6+ ss save back. Damn I miss that. (JOKING) Where are my skink Cav as well.

DarkstarSabre
15-02-2009, 11:11
I just want to know why, since they essentially made the lizardmen the same army they were in their first book, skinks didn't get their 6+ ss save back. Damn I miss that. (JOKING) Where are my skink Cav as well.


Your Skink Cav have been replaced by Saurus Cav. Who fill EXACTLY the same role from the old 5th ed. LM book that Skink Cav did but with T4 instead of T2 and a much, much better armour save.

AmBlam
15-02-2009, 11:20
Nobody cares....go away and complain elsewhere, I sugguest the inside of a cupboard.

The only army that got nerfed here was the skink skirmish army that was backed by a heap of kroxigor.
And nobody liked anyone that used that list anyway.
So nobody of importance atually feels this nerf.

I care, any chance you can troll elsewhere?

zak
15-02-2009, 11:46
I'm not if the OP put this here just to see the response he/she got to it. It is possibly one of the weakest arguments I have seen on a thread in a long time. I see that the OP hasn't tried to defend their undefendable position yet.

Skinks were far too good. They are still good now, but are balanced within the context of the army. Saurus are back and the buffs they received far ouweigh any down grading that Skinks took.