PDA

View Full Version : Please change my opinion of the new Lizzies



J.P. Biff
13-02-2009, 18:46
First things first, I really like the look of the Lizardmen army and do enjoy fielding them on the table top and want to again after a 2 year break in their case but after reading the new book I'm a little disappointed to be honest.

Positives first though. Alot more variety is great, the fact you can do multiple builds with the army is fantastic. Ranked skink units is a great addition for cheap garbage MSU units that can be redirecters and even a unit that can do some damage with Kroxi's in it. Razordons for guarding flanks are SWEET (except for problems stated below) and are just what the army needed, good solid flank protectors. Cheaper Saurus Cav is good, Salamanders using a template is a nice change, definetly defining their attack nature vs. the flank guarding nature of the Razordons. EotG is fantastic, Stegadons to special is great. Don't get me wrong overall the book has improved... to a point.

But what I'm disappointed in and have a HUGE problem with some of the changes that WEREN'T made to units/items that I would love to use but still think are relatively useless compared to others in the list. What I hope is that people can convince me otherwise and show me uses for them that I may have overlooked.

My biggest beefs first.

Salamanders and Razordons costing 75 pts each?? are you kidding me?? IMO, pound for pound (pts. cost compared to effect/usefullness, is what pound for pound means amongst my gaming community) completely overpriced in an already points stingey army. 65 is tolerable.

SAURUS are my biggest problem. 1 pt. decrease and 1 better armor save??!?!?! Ridiculous. There are so many things they could've done to make them vastly better. An initiative increase (which is all I really wanted to begin with in addition to an armor save increase which they got, thank god), or movement increase (which is a good idea but a little to much IMO unless it was their only change and stayed the same in pts.) still IMO completely useless when compared to temple guard and even skink blocks when compared pound for pound . 2 attacks no matter what with spears is alright but the unit is still to pts. heavy IMO.

Magic items are a joke. Many of them are way to overpriced especially for one use only items!! Lizardmen are clearly the kings of the "One use Only" magic items. Rod of the storm is just what they need, but, one use only... stupid. Can you honestly sit there and tell me Rod of the Storm (D6 str 4 no armor save) vs. Storm Daemon (D6 str 5. on a 1 hits user.) makes any sense at all?!?! Theyr're both basically the same but Rod is one use only. That makes me laugh. I could go on forever on how 90% of the items aren't worth taking so please just tell me the ones you think are worth it. The only ones ATM that are worth it (pound for pound)are

Sun resplendant sword, Warspear for skinks, sword of the hornet.

mirrored pool shield, maiming shield

Curse charm of Tepok, Carnosaur Pendant, venom of the firefly frog

Plaque of Tepok.

This is all pound for pound remember. there are items that are usefull but they're just to damn expensive for what they do. Some should stay the same amount of points but remove the "one use only" rule. (*cough "Rod of the Storm, *cough "cupped hands of the old ones")

I know people probably have a headache from my Long ass rant but one more thing to add then I'll stop :evilgrin:

Chameleon skinks. Still stupidly useless and overpriced (albeit not as much). One magic missile = dead unit/combat ineffective unit, on most occasions. Yeah, yeah you're saying "well don't let the spell get cast on them." Well, sometimes you fail your dispel roll. Just a unit thats not worth taking the chance on IMO.

Anyway, please find things that counter what I've stated and help me!!! I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to changing my views but thats why I love the Warseer community. I always see different takes on units/tactics I never thought of. I really want to use Saurus but ATM think Skinks and temple guard will be the only block units I take.

larabic
13-02-2009, 18:54
SAURUS are my biggest problem. 1 pt. decrease and 1 better armor save??!?!?! Ridiculous. There are so many things they could've done to make them vastly better. An initiative increase (which is all I really wanted to begin with in addition to an armor save increase which they got, thank god), or movement increase (which is a good idea but a little to much IMO unless it was their only change and stayed the same in pts.) still IMO completely useless when compared to temple guard and even skink blocks when compared pound for pound . 2 attacks no matter what with spears is alright but the unit is still to pts. heavy IMO.


This is where i stopped reading, any one that complains about getting cheaper and having 2 attacks at the same time needs some meds or something! 2 Attacks should be the exception not the rule... very few troops should really have it, i am saddened that each army seems to be getting that more and more.

Dungeon_Lawyer
13-02-2009, 18:54
I dont think there a is better core infantry unit right now, as you say, "pound for pound" than the saurus with spears combo. In real games, not seertalk, they have been performing above and beyond expectations. The Carny not being a large target is also quite nice--yeah lizzie magic items leave somthing to be desired I grant you, and Im still miffed at the lack of a slann specific lore but its gonna be years till another update. This one overall aint a bad one....

Dokushin
13-02-2009, 19:01
Ok, I'm going to just kind of take some stuff at random.

First, we need to talk about Saurus. They don't have Predatory Fighters anymore and spears cost 1 point. That's 4 S4 attacks back per T4 4+AS base for 12 points. That's amazing. Even if you don't give them spears you're getting S4 T4 infantry with 2 attacks and a 3+ armor save for 11 points, which is still excellent.

Razordons are going to do about half as many hits at +1 strength, which is fair against most and a lot better vs. Dwarves. Salamanders can hit a lot with that flame template -- more than you would have rolled on the artillery die in most cases, and they cause automatic panic. Both have a new rule protecting the skinks in combat (only the monsters fight) and the unit has +1 leadership. Pretty good.

Chameleon skinks, for 12 points and special slot, get you M6 skirmishing scouts, with BS4 and a 2x shot poison S3 12" weapon. That bump to BS4 is huge -- it lets you move and double-shoot over half range, and still be able to poison. Our special slots are still crowded, but we can work around them (krox in core, stegs as mounts) and fit these guys in for a cheap, effective harrasment and support screening unit. If they get hit with a MM you'll lose two or three, and still have seven or eight. Even if they panic check they'll pass 70%, and it only takes one to march block. Plus, those blowpipes add up.

Our magic items are bad, I'll give you, but they've always been bad. They couldn't be too good -- our basic fighty hero is S5 T5 with 4 attacks and fullplate. You could hand him a stick and he'd outfight a lot of tooled-up heroes. So when you look at our MI list and think it looks a little lackluster, remember that behind it is genetic superiority. Our weapons are ok, but a great weapon, or hw and shield, or spear on cold one, on a scar-vet is already pretty amazing.

Our 'magic-oriented' magic items are pretty lackluster, too, but it's the same thing -- Slaan disciplines blow a lot of magic items out of the water.

Plus, I know you're caught up on value per point, but the Blade of Realities and the Cupped Hands change the nature of the game by giving you a way to deal with arbitrarily invincible lords, and a way to protect against that one likely miscast while nuking an enemy mage before they can twitch.

Plus, the Plaque of Dominion shuts Tzeench spam down on the spot, and that is laudible.

All in all, I love the list, and I'm eager to see what people have done with it in a year.

sroblin
13-02-2009, 19:06
As has been pointed out that, the Saurus Warriors are possibly the best ranked unit in the game. They are only a little more expensive than a high elf spearman or greatsword, much cheaper than Chaos Warriors, high elf elites, etc., and are at least as tough and deadly as the latter and far more so than the former. Oh, and they're core. Yes, they are M4 and have low initiative, but that's really their background, and I3 would not make them much better than they already are.

The magic items are not the best selection, no arguing there but at least there's enough to get by. Dokushin's comments about genetic superiority are also quite relevant, and you hear people talking alot more about taking Saurus Lords compared to Chaos Lords.

The razordons and salamanders are pricey, but I think this reflects the fact that they are shooting units that are also capable of eating things in close combat! Not ranked units int the front or heavy knights, obviously, but support units or as flankers. Plus their stand and shoot abilities are significant. They are not super units for the price, but their costs reflects some useful dual-functionality at least.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
13-02-2009, 19:37
This is where i stopped reading, any one that complains about getting cheaper and having 2 attacks at the same time needs some meds or something! 2 Attacks should be the exception not the rule... very few troops should really have it, i am saddened that each army seems to be getting that more and more.

Exactly. Every Lizard player I know thinks Saurus are awesome now.

OP, quit your crying. Lizards are a very good army.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
13-02-2009, 19:46
Actually, I am bit miffed with Sauri myself. My dwarf warriors are no longer the best point for point core infantry in the game :(.

larabic
13-02-2009, 20:20
Actually, I am bit miffed with Sauri myself. My dwarf warriors are no longer the best point for point core infantry in the game :(.

Nah, I think we lost that with the Chaos warrior book, considering chaos warriors with shields are bigger badder iron breakers now.

Roxors45
13-02-2009, 20:39
Thread ended. Thanks for playing.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
13-02-2009, 20:54
Nah, I think we lost that with the Chaos warrior book, considering chaos warriors with shields are bigger badder iron breakers now.

True, but they were also almost twice the cost [16 vs 9 per model and +5 for command] and have a bigger frontage.

Spyral
13-02-2009, 21:47
Sorry can't change your opinion - I'm going to play Night Goblins.. :evilgrin:

J.P. Biff
13-02-2009, 21:57
@ grotsnot and larabic

why bother posting? You've given no advice and just flamed. Honestly just don't post if thats all you're going to do. /fail

@ majority of all others. I appreciate the feedback so far. Saurus with spears could be worth it despite low Initiative I guess considering there'll be a good number left (chances are :)) and the predatory fighters is gone (lmao forgot that!) I'll have to give them more of a chance.

How about hand weapon shield saurus?? still ineffective?? or has anyone had success with them in a MSU role?

Tae
13-02-2009, 22:33
Plus, I know you're caught up on value per point, but the Blade of Realities and the Cupped Hands change the nature of the game by giving you a way to deal with arbitrarily invincible lords, and a way to protect against that one likely miscast while nuking an enemy mage before they can twitch.


Exactly. If you make Cupped Hands not one use only, you're virtually reducing the inherent risks involved in throwing more dice at your own spells.

In fact it's arguable that it's better you do throw more numbers at it in the hopes of miscasting and then being able to pass it off - a far better way to get rid of anything like a Lord of Change.

(Though personally I don't mind it too much as my WoC army has the Puppet in it, so it rarely turns nasty)

As for the rest of the book, I've not read it that much however my friend who plays Lizardmen really likes it. Sure he's disappointed at the loss of scouting skinks, but really likes the new Saurus (now has 2 units of it in his 2,000 point army) as well as Temple Guard.

Stuffburger
13-02-2009, 22:47
I love the new saurus, maybe they're even in the realm of overpowered. Even with spears and shields they have T4 and a 4+ save- excellent defense for a core troop, especially considering they have 2 S4 attacks in two ranks.

Add into that cold blooded L8 and the crappy Init. seems needed to keep them in line.

I wouldn't call chameleon skinks stupidly useless anymore- maybe a point overcosted but definitely not useless. They were very overshadowed in 6th by scouting vanilla skinks for almost half as much, but now they are cheaper, regular skinks more expensive (and can no longer scout). When I get back to my LM I can see myself bringing a small unit to every game.

With a couple exceptions, I'm very happy with the LM list.

My gripes are the potential for masses of stegadons, GW's usual making at least half the magic items useless, not having shortbow skinks as a choice at all, and spawnings going away.

I would have also liked to see a more close combat oriented skink unit- maybe one with xhw, la and frenzy? But that was just a pipe dream...

xragg
13-02-2009, 23:08
My gripes are the potential for masses of stegadons, GW's usual making at least half the magic items useless, not having shortbow skinks as a choice at all, and spawnings going away.



I am not looking forward to playing the person that feels a list with like 6+ stegadons is fun, but I cant imagine GW was that stupid to not realize some players would do it.

As far the poster saying saurus warriors not being good??? Crazy. In the one game I have played against them so far, a unit of ten with spears took a charge from my DE chariot and just laughed (3 wounds from impact, 3 other, he saved 1 and did 1 wound back, he lost combat by 1 which isnt a hard break test for ld8 lizzies). Not many core infantry of 10 can take a charge from a chariot and hang around.

vamp
14-02-2009, 00:08
Dude.. Lizzies got more love then most armies ever got. Their is no room for complaining about expense and making them better.


Aye saurus warriors are cheap as heck. Can field spears and have 2 attacks?? Thats like 24 attacks using both ranks with a rank of 6. You are being proposterous. They are crazy powerful and crazy cheap for their cost. dont forget the temple guard with an armor save of 2+. Oh btw don't forget of the two stats they are weak in initiative and leadership really their only weak when it comes to initiative because of cold blooded. So that weakness is negated right there and their other weakness initiative doesn't even come into play seeings how they are virtually miniaturetanks with cold blood walking up right on two lizzy feet.


Oh and a slaan who virtually doesn't even need to roll dice to cast. When you watch a game with the lizadmen using a slaan It looks like the lizardmen player controlling the slaan is just making rules up as he goes... rerolls....giving your mage his mistcasts.( can't hide from this behind your own ranks cuz the slaan can see everything)... getting an extra die for each spell, 5 wounds...in the middle of the rank so he can't be challenged......all of your 6's dont count. Its laughable. I know its all official rules and Im quite sure its within balance. But it IS very powerful...and its laughable that you would consider arguing they didn't get boosted enough in the power department.

Dungeon_Lawyer
14-02-2009, 01:02
My gripes are the potential for masses of stegadons, GW's usual making at least half the magic items useless, not having shortbow skinks as a choice at all.

Yeah what happened to the S.lands? I liked the alternative list, now I have a ton of converting to do to 5th ed skinks with bows to get them tourny ready.

Necromancy Black
14-02-2009, 01:43
OP, have you actually taken your lizards and played with the new rules yet?

I have, and I find that while not being hugely different, they do actually perform a bit better. Those little things, like the extra AS on the Saurus and Cold Ones, plus the big things, like the Salamanders and the new skinks, have made the army a bit more tougher overall. Don't go looking at each unit, build a list, play it, adjust it as you need and soon you'll find we've still got an army that's not over the top, just strong and competitive.

Pavic
14-02-2009, 01:44
Salamanders and Razordons costing 75 pts each....

At first I was a little surprised at the higher point cost as well, however, the key change of indicating that the skinks always line up behind the sallies and razors is a huge boon. Now, you may not have been playing sallies correctly previously (i.e. you lined the sallies up and then the skinks, seriously reducing the number of skinks fighting) and clearly you would not see the benefit here. However, if you were lining them up incorrectly, now maybe you can see how beneficial this change is. In addition, the skinks received a ld bump, so all and all, I don't think the price is that terribly out of line.


SAURUS are my biggest problem...An initiative increase...

Now, as many people have already mentioned, Saurus are probably the best heavy infantry point wise in the game now. That being said, I want to point out one more thing. You should NOT be worrying so much about Initiative. If you have spear saurus, you want to be charged. If you run Saurus with HW/shield, there are still going to be a good number of them to strike back with against most units. T4 and a 3+ AS is tough for most units to crack.

Besides, low initiative is one of our primary drawbacks. Boost that just a little, say even to 3, and big point increase would be necessary. I would much rather have Saurus than Chaos Warriors :D



Magic items are a joke...

All of us are a little miffed with the magic section. It was a big weakness last time and it remains so. However, I think there are more noteworthy items than you listed. I have listed these below.

Blade of Realities - Ok, it's 75 pts. But when you make a greater deamon of Khorne take 3 ld tests and if he fails one he dies, it is worth it. And that's not all. Ogre Tyrants, Hydras, our very own stegadons, etc. will all die to this weapon with ease.

Pirahna Blade - Try this out if you didn't last edition. I have rarely been disappointed by this item. Oh, and throwing it on a skink chief on Terradon to hunt down mages is very entertaining.

Staff of the Lost Sun - Also very entertaining on the aforementioned skink chief on Terradon.

Hide of the Cold Ones - T6 and fear. Nuff said. Of course, I could also point out that with Bear's Anger, you can reach T7, not to mention having S7 and A7 with a Scar Vet. Put this guy in a unit of Saurus or even risk it in your temple guard unit with the Slann and watch your opponent avoid it like Nurgle's Rot.

Drum of Xahutec - It's different, but worth trying out. It can be especially helpful with rallying any skink units you use for baiting.

Cloaks of Feathers - Finally 25 pts, allowing the skink to take a scroll as well. Excellent for getting LOS for magic missles from your Slann.

Cupped Hands of the Old Ones - Um...did you miss the part where you get to pass on the miscast? If it had been more than 1 use only, it would have been 100 pts.

Glyph Necklace - 5+ WS for the army wide standard price of 30 pts. It is not overpriced and it is the only WS for your Oldblood.

Diadem of Power - 5 dispel dice with a single skink priest. Amazing for cheap magic defense in those armies with little magic.



Chameleon skinks. Still stupidly useless and overpriced...

Yes, they should have left them the special deployment rule. Yes, even with this, they probably should have been a point less. However, they are the only scout unit we have now and they can cause some major havoc, not to mention drawing something off to deal with them. We can't have everything ;)

Hope that is a little encouragement.

larabic
14-02-2009, 07:24
@ grotsnot and larabic

why bother posting? You've given no advice and just flamed. Honestly just don't post if thats all you're going to do. /fail



Because as an ole grumbler I officially have the right, 2 attacks as a base used to be ridiculous, now people are like oh yeah i guess they are okay. To get two attacks in the old day meant a weapon in each hand and virtually no armor save, now the lizzies can have a silly save and 2 attacks or a good save and a disgusting number of attacks while being Str and Tough 4! Seriously if you can't see how awesome that is you must kick kittens or something! Any troop that has 2 attacks on the base profile should never need convincing especially when they are your CORE!

Kerill
14-02-2009, 07:34
Whilst I'm happy to discuss lizardmen since I'm collecting them we now have at least three threads on the same or similar topic here.

J.P.Biff why not just go to this thread:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181298

and read through all 11 pages, almost every possible argument for and against the new lizzies is in there.

galad
14-02-2009, 19:03
So you put your Saurus 7 wide with spears and you get 28 attacks....and you don't like them?

Holy dice rolling igaunas Batman!

Can I have them?

YTY
14-02-2009, 19:13
You are whining about the new lizardmen's magic items?

Take a look at the WoC book and say who has the worst and most overpriced items?