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View Full Version : Genesteelers, what makes it soo strong



tacoo
14-02-2009, 02:51
im just posting this because i was wondering what everyone thought about genesteelers, me personally i think that they should be made elite, or have certin bio-morphs taken away from them, like the biomorph where they inflict 2 wounds instid of one, or is it what makes them so strong the fact that they fleet, rend, and dont need snyapses for there points, i mean outflanking genesteelers where 3 could take down bloodthristers, or even great unclean ones seem's a little strung for basic troop choices

John Vaughan
14-02-2009, 02:56
The fact that the best armor that they can get is 4+ keeps them in the troops spot. They can be used effectively when tooled out, you just have to be more careful with them. As soon as they pop their heads out, let the heavy bolters fly!

tacoo
14-02-2009, 03:05
ughh, it says my pole thing is close, but anyways, its hard to let the bolters, or in my case warpfire, fly when there constintly in combat ripping things to shreds.

Usopreme
14-02-2009, 03:05
Inflicting 2 wounds really only scares things like the greater daemons you mentioned, and pink horrors should have blasted them away long before they got to your big guys. Stealers are great in combat but they are balanced as troops in my opinion.

John Vaughan
14-02-2009, 03:09
The saving grace from that is how they cannot consolidate into units after a massacre combat, like in the old rules. They will likely consolidate closer (logically) so that all of the bolters/gauss rifles/plasma rifles/shootas/shuriken catapults/ect. are in perfect close range to reduce the stealers to meaty ribbons.

holmcross
14-02-2009, 04:43
me personally i think that they should be made elite, or have certin bio-morphs taken away from them, like the biomorph where they inflict 2 wounds instid of one, or is it what makes them so strong the fact that they fleet, rend, and dont need snyapses for there points, i mean outflanking genesteelers where 3 could take down bloodthristers, or even great unclean ones seem's a little strung for basic troop choices

Funny how you didn't mention any of thier downsides, of which there are many. Its even funnier that you are complaining about implant attack, which is probably thier worst biomorph. This poll is ridiculous.

Maskedman5oh4
14-02-2009, 05:02
Hay guys spaec marines are so broked. I meen a 3+ save, ranged weapon and cloes combat?!?! Plus they have good leadership and speshal rules. What gives?!

__________________________________________________ ______________

Genestealers are sixteen points each. Yeah, they are effective, but they have many, many more vulnerabilities that the majority of other Troops units in every army. I usually field them without upgrades anyway. Getting them near and/or upwards of 20 pts a model can be very dangerous as they are so fragile.

However, they did benefit greatly with the 5th ed. cover rules; now they can usually always take thay 5+ save instead of having it negated by AP weapons. It still remains a 5+ save though, or a 4+ at the extreme. Please remember this rule does not favor Genestealerss any more than grots, all units universally benefit from the cover saves rules.

Ianos
14-02-2009, 05:25
This must be a joke thread, not only stealers are the possibly only viable troop choice for nids, but they are also an expensive footslogging small number assault unit. So they are not even close to point and click, let alone overpowered...

redbaron998
14-02-2009, 05:26
Well now they are overpriced with the rending nerf.

I always never liked them because they have WS and I 6, Eithier WS 6 OR I 6 would have been better.

holmcross
14-02-2009, 05:35
Well now they are overpriced with the rending nerf.

I always never liked them because they have WS and I 6, Eithier WS 6 OR I 6 would have been better.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Tyranid codex come out before rending an auto wound on a to-hit roll of 6? Rending was what, a power weapon attack on a 6 to wound? If that was the case, I'd say the current rending rules are better then what they were when genestealers were priced.

Overall, I'd say 'stealers gained more then they lost in the current edition.

Maskedman5oh4
14-02-2009, 05:39
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Tyranid codex come out before rending an auto wound on a to-hit roll of 6? Rending was what, a power weapon attack on a 6 to wound? If that was the case, I'd say the current rending rules are better then what they were when genestealers were priced.

Overall, I'd say 'stealers gained more then they lost in the current edition.

You are wrong. They were 'power' on a 6 to hit. Now they are 'power' on a 6 to wound. You roll more dice to hit than to wound. More dice = more 6's.

Statistaclly- 18 attack would equal on avg 3 rendings. 'Stealers almost always hit on 3's. So, in the new rules, you will get 12 hits from 18 attacks on avg, yielding 2 (out of 12 - 1 in 6) rending attack. That is 33% less successful rending attacks.

ehlijen
14-02-2009, 05:52
Genestealers are still very scary. Not necessarily because of just what they can do, but also because they are part of an army that consists of several very scary things running at you.

If you shoot the really fast stuff first, you usually only get one shot at the stealers. If you shoot the stealers first, the really fast stuff gets through and stops you from shooting a second time. And then there's the third wave of MCs that will clean up what managed to suvive the stealers.

If stealers are causing a problem, than that's not them themselves, but the fact that many other things that draw fire away from them (ie MCs) seem a bit cheap and the fact that a proper swarm is so full of things the stealers can hide behind for 4+ cover.

That said, even then I find them not to be a problem. Sure, they will probably kill what they reach, but with clever deployment, movement and setting up kill zones, you can usually both decide what they will reach and make sure they die right after reach and kill it. The nid player will of course attempt to stop things like that by using fast disrupters (hormies etc) and the threat of shooting.

holmcross
14-02-2009, 05:58
[QUOTE=Maskedman5oh4;3290112]

You are wrong. They were 'power' on a 6 to hit. Now they are 'power' on a 6 to wound. You roll more dice to hit than to wound. More dice = more 6's.[QUOTE]

I see. So at the time that the codex was printed, they benefited from better rending and the old consoldation rules.

However in 5th, feeder tendrils and scuttlers are awesome (increases thier usefulness in against larger groups of non-MEQ opponents in CC) and they benefit greatly from the new cover save rule.

Perhaps thier base cost will be reduced in the next codex, but you can be pretty sure that price of feeder tendrils will go up.

Stealers do what they're supposed to do very well. The problem is that Gaunts/hormaguants are crap in 5th and can't pick up the slack... so players end up using stealers to go after less-then-optimal targets. The hormies should be taking out large model count non-MEQ squads, while stealers go after the MEQs/high toughness models.

Maskedman5oh4
14-02-2009, 06:16
Tyranids, or atleast fighting them, have always been about threat assessment. Most of my opponents always target my Monterous Creatures rather than my troops. Sure, my troops get residual fire- but most of the main firepower is directed at MCs. Seriously, I field hormagaunts with +I and +S and I find they eat up troops comparably to MCs, although they have suffered in this respect with the newer Without Fear rules. Most opponents have problems with target priority, and, the Tyranid swarm has many threats. In my experience, players will not embrace a philosophy of suppressive fire, instead cherry picking Monsterous Creatures at every opportunity; I hope they continue to do so.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-02-2009, 06:31
Well now they are overpriced with the rending nerf.

I always never liked them because they have WS and I 6, Eithier WS 6 OR I 6 would have been better.

Meh, that doesn't really matter. In fact, didn't they used to be WS and I 7 rather than 6? With 4 attacks each, and str 6. So they are actually quite toned down :p

Johnnyfrej
14-02-2009, 10:59
Did anyone see the Hivefleet Genesteelers play the Ecclesiarch Cardinals? [superbowl joke]

Killmaimburn
14-02-2009, 11:04
Did anyone see the Genesteelers play the Ecclesiarch Cardinals?Nope was it a good show? I imagine the pointy claws having some problems getting into the papal cassocks for the dress rehersals :)

Grazzy
14-02-2009, 11:25
They are fine. They are powerful but a glass hammer - a very balanced unit.

carldooley
14-02-2009, 12:43
they are a wonderful unit, but I agree that they are good as they are. there are trade-offs with every unit, in that with genestealers wou have ZERO ranged capability but you are probably going to hit first in every combat. then, there are the support capabilities of the unit - give them feeder tendrils, and any friendly model will hit in CC on a 3+. However, I have considered losing my genestealers in my nidzilla list for gaunts without number, to screen my force and then to come back onto the board to take objectives (but this is off topic(sorry to OP)).

tacoo
14-02-2009, 13:20
[QUOTE=holmcross;3290051 Its even funnier that you are complaining about implant attack, which is probably thier worst biomorph..[/QUOTE]

maby we are using implat attack wrong, so explain to me if we are. it says that for each unsaved wound, it does 2 wounds in stead, so say i fail 2 armour saves, that would be 4 wounds i have to distribute, such 4 things die instead of 2, am i right?

Necrotyr18
14-02-2009, 13:25
No as implant will only really apply to multi-wounded models.

The model that fails the armor save takes two instead of one so your single wounded space marine dies twice, not a friend dies with him. Now Calgar if he gets wounded from implant attack he wound take two wounds.

tacoo
14-02-2009, 13:29
ya but woudln't you be forced to allocate the other wound to some1 else since models cant take more wounds then there max

malisteen
14-02-2009, 13:31
I'd like to see steelers as an elites choice, but one you could take as troops if your army included one or more broodlords. Of course, I'd also like to see another troops choice introduced, something bridging the gap between gaunt and warrior. Stealers currently occupy that position, but they always felt like a separate group within the tyranid army from the ripper/gaunt/warrior/tyrant core.

But that's all for fluff reasons, not a mechanics balance issue.

Korras
14-02-2009, 13:36
ya but woudln't you be forced to allocate the other wound to some1 else since models cant take more wounds then there max
no. the person above you there already explained, too.

Hicks
14-02-2009, 13:46
I personally don't think they are too strong at all. They are very expensive, very fragile and personally I never had mine rip through a fresh squad of big nasties by themselves (anything with T5). People avoid them like the plague and they get shot A LOT, so unless you pay even more point for scuttlers they surely aren't all going to get into CC. Even outflanking is kind of a gamble.

So considering all that, I don't think that 20pts stealers beating a squad of marines in CC makes them overpowered. Especially since they hugely depend on rolling 6's to wound. They need a lot of work to be effective considering bad luck can easily make them a huge disapointment.

ehlijen
14-02-2009, 13:59
While I don't think there's anything wrong with stealers at the moment, I have to protest all those people who call them 'fragile'.
They have space marine toughness (something not many other troops get) and while their unupgraded armour is bad, the upgrade puts them into 'quite decent' territory. Against shooting, they are as resilient as SM scouts and (vs most basic weaponry) sisters of battle. There is just so much stuff out there that doesn't have a 4+ save or T4, a fair few don't even have either. And high WS and I means that it's not easy putting the hurt on them in combat either.

They're no space marines, but those are very good, not 'average' in toughness. If they're using cover (which with their speed they can do better than slower units) it's not easy to gun down stealer units.

Valtiel
14-02-2009, 14:04
Problem is that upgrading their armour costs too much (imo) be be of value. I don't think
Genestealers are overpowered but very fragile and will get shot to pieces. When they get to combat they will most likely slaughter though but when they get out of it they will sometimes just die due to the new rules. Still a viable choice. I tend to run them extremely cheap though, only with flesh hooks.

Grand Master Raziel
14-02-2009, 14:09
I'd say that before the Rending nerf, Stealers were incredibly inappropriate as a Troops choice and should have been a Troops choice. My knee-jerk reaction still leans in that direction, but I could live with them as a Troops choice - provided they lose the Scuttlers biomorph next time Codex: Tyranids is updated. The Outflanking ability makes Scuttlers wildly more effective than was envisioned when Codex: Tyranids was released.

That said, neither lack of ranged ability nor the 4+ save are convincing arguments for why a unit should be a Troops choice. Assault Terminators have no close combat ability, either, but no one is supporting the idea of unconditionally making them a Troops choice. An alternate example: Howling Banshees - 4+ save, and very little ranged ability, plus S3 T3 to boot. Still an Elites choice, however. If a unit is hyper-specialized for something, that's usually a pretty good qualification for it being an Elites choice (that's not the only criteria, but it's a pretty big one). Genestealers are pretty much a textbook case for being hyper-specialized at being killy in close combat, so the case for them being an Elites choice is pretty strong.

TheOneWithNoName
14-02-2009, 14:20
Don't let them outflank and everything would be fine.

sydbridges
14-02-2009, 14:39
I always thought the reason they made genestealers troops was as a half-nod to people who wanted to build a sort of 'zero wave' force - which would contain only genestealers, broodlords, and maybe lictors, all running about trying to determine if the world would be delicious for the Hive Mind.

Vesica
14-02-2009, 15:06
If they get turned into elite then their save should goto a 3+, if not they should be limited to how many you can take or maybe have a bio limit.

That said if they get a new codex they will porbably be changed anyway.

The_Outsider
14-02-2009, 15:10
Heavy bolters, heavy flamers, autocannon, shruiken cannon, multilasers and so on all tell me that genestealers do not like gun fire.

Nor do genestealers beat everything in CC - there are a few units that can bend genestealers over.

Grand Master Raziel
14-02-2009, 15:15
Don't let them outflank and everything would be fine.

:confused: Have you not played 5th Edition yet? When I typed "Outflank" with the capital "O", I thought it was universally understood that I was referring to the ability to keep units with Infiltrate and/or Scouts in reserve to have them come into play from one of the short table edges, which one can do in 5th edition games.


I always thought the reason they made genestealers troops was as a half-nod to people who wanted to build a sort of 'zero wave' force - which would contain only genestealers, broodlords, and maybe lictors, all running about trying to determine if the world would be delicious for the Hive Mind.

That'd make sense, and be a perfectly thematic list. However, what's been tending to happen instead is that players take broods of Stealers as their only Troops choices and running a lot of MCs instead.

Nym
14-02-2009, 15:15
What's funny with Genestealers is that they got both nerfed and boosted at the same time.

They get an almost guaranteed 3+ reroll to hit for free basically, but their Rending isn't as frightening as it used to be. All in all I think their point cost is still appropriate (as long as you give them Feeder tendrils).

They're probably one of the most well balanced unit in all army books imo.

Hicks
14-02-2009, 15:27
That'd make sense, and be a perfectly thematic list. However, what's been tending to happen instead is that players take broods of Stealers as their only Troops choices and running a lot of MCs instead.

That has way more to do with gaunts being total crap than people wanting to abuse rending. Every nid players propably has upwards of 60 gaunts they'd like to field, but that's just giving away VP's against most armies.

And for once, I totally agree with The_Outsider. :eek:

TheOneWithNoName
14-02-2009, 15:30
:confused: Have you not played 5th Edition yet? When I typed "Outflank" with the capital "O", I thought it was universally understood that I was referring to the ability to keep units with Infiltrate and/or Scouts in reserve to have them come into play from one of the short table edges, which one can do in 5th edition games.

I wasn't directly replying to you (hence no quotes) and yes, I'm well aware of that rule as my poor Guardsmen can attest too. I was just adding my 2 cents that Genestealers shouldn't be able to outflank.

tsutek
14-02-2009, 15:36
Isn't the "Elites" FOC slot reserved for units that are relatively rare? I don't consider 'stealers to be rare so I see the "troops" slot perfectly appropriate.

And if someone wants to take only stealers and MC's for their nid armies, well, it's their list. Nothing wrong with that, it's not like a build like that would be totally unstoppable.

And yes, implant attack only kills a single 1-wound model, not two.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-02-2009, 15:36
That'd make sense, and be a perfectly thematic list. However, what's been tending to happen instead is that players take broods of Stealers as their only Troops choices and running a lot of MCs instead.


Works for me. My orks played against one of those lists recently. 3 units of stealers as his only troops. Since two of them was outflanking I put all my long range firepower(10 lootas and a SAG) into the one on the table. By turn two they were dead suddenly he just had two scoring units coming on from the same flank, compared to my 5. It didn't end well for the nids.

carldooley
14-02-2009, 15:51
be wary, I think the person that wants to field them as elites wants to make a genestealer cult. . .



which like the players who want their craftworld armies back, can be done with the current codex. Broodlord, anyone?

Hicks
14-02-2009, 15:54
be wary, I think the person that wants to field them as elites wants to make a genestealer cult. . .



which like the players who want their craftworld armies back, can be done with the current codex. Broodlord, anyone?

Up to a point, but you would be missing the magus, the vehicles, imperial tech and different hybrids. A genestealer cult isn't supposed to be just stealers, but rather a human/tyranid hybrid army where genestealers are the most elite units.

Znail
14-02-2009, 17:22
The only thing underpriced with Genstealers are prefered enemy, else so are they pretty fairly priced. With that exception so do I think you get what you pay for so they are neither under or overpowered.

zeep
14-02-2009, 18:22
In the current game, stealers are overprice by about 4 pts. Prefered enemy helps but is debatable on the price. On broodlord retinues it is well worth the feeder tendrils on the brood lord, but by doing so you cannot take the implant attack... on one of the few models you would have preffered the I.A.
Between non consolidation, the rending nerf, the speed comparison reduction, no retreat, and the loss of the ability to even harm a heavy tank, it is not worth over 16 pts a model.

Outflank was nice the first week or so of 5th, but by now most of my opponents have counters in place, enough so that I no longer pay the cost for scuttlers.

tacoo
14-02-2009, 18:38
they only need to stun the vach once then next turn its alot easyier to take care of. i find they do alright up to av 12 , and if lucky can sometimes stun av13, but most tanks have av 10- 11 rear armour so they do really food out here.

mchmr6677
14-02-2009, 19:08
Also, keep in mind that if a 96 pt 6 strong stealer unit is not troops, that the effective minimum nid scoring unit costs 95 pts and gives 2 kill points (8 spinegaunts and a zoanthrope to provide synapse).

Stealers are far from overpowered, especially compaired to other troop units. Look at the power and abilities of Chaos marine troops (by note remember that a ten-strong zerker squad in a rhino will wipe a stealer brood out). Now are some of the biomorphs too low in points cost right now? Yes, but the base cost of a stealer is equal to a marine and they frankly are neither marines nor overly effective against marines.

One last point of note for the one that was complaining about stealers taking out a bloodthister, there is a very good reason stealers need to be able to kill MCs and uber-charaters, nothing else in the codex is very effective at it.

zeep
14-02-2009, 19:56
they only need to stun the vach once then next turn its alot easyier to take care of. i find they do alright up to av 12 , and if lucky can sometimes stun av13, but most tanks have av 10- 11 rear armour so they do really food out here.

I do not think you understand. By heavy tank I mean Landraider and monolith... Which they could hurt in 4th and now cannot. They cannot stun it and then finish it up... they cant hurt it at all.

The_Outsider
14-02-2009, 21:06
I do not think you understand. By heavy tank I mean Landraider and monolith... Which they could hurt in 4th and now cannot. They cannot stun it and then finish it up... they cant hurt it at all.

Which is a bad thing how? I have no problems with genestealers rending marines and light to medium tanks to peices - but the monolith and land raider represent soem of the toughest tanks in existence outside the gargantuan and lumbering warmachines like the baneblade.

sydbridges
14-02-2009, 21:34
Which is a bad thing how? I have no problems with genestealers rending marines and light to medium tanks to peices - but the monolith and land raider represent soem of the toughest tanks in existence outside the gargantuan and lumbering warmachines like the baneblade.

Except genestealers could kill a baneblade, since, y'know. Rear armor 12 and all.

The_Outsider
14-02-2009, 22:03
Except genestealers could kill a baneblade, since, y'know. Rear armor 12 and all.

True - but you get my point (besides, with structure points the genestealers will still have one hell of a job on their claws).

zeep
14-02-2009, 22:52
Which is a bad thing how? I have no problems with genestealers rending marines and light to medium tanks to peices - but the monolith and land raider represent soem of the toughest tanks in existence outside the gargantuan and lumbering warmachines like the baneblade.

Because thats what they have been designed to do. People badly underestimate the power of bio-organics. If you can do it with a machine, then it can be done organically. Many people seem to have no problem accepting that a human can put on a peice of wargear and be able to go though the strongest armor in existance (i.e chain fist, thunder hammer etc). But put that same concept on an entire creature designed from the ground up to do it and they flip out.

From the beginings of this game, stealers have been able to breach the toughest of materials. It's their role in life. Why do people suspend their disbelief and allow giant flaming demons, sorcerey, 20 story tall warmachines, and swords with a function... and yet stop when confronted by something completely within the realm of normal physics?

The_Outsider
14-02-2009, 23:22
From the beginings of this game, stealers have been able to breach the toughest of materials. It's their role in life. Why do people suspend their disbelief and allow giant flaming demons, sorcerey, 20 story tall warmachines, and swords with a function... and yet stop when confronted by something completely within the realm of normal physics?

Genestealers deserve to be murdering machines yes, but as a troops choise there has to be a limit to their power when you factor in the capabilities of the rest of the list. Genestealers do not work like terminators in a deathwing force - when you have troops that can molest even the heaviest tanks and infantry as well as being supported by some of the best MC's in the game there has to be a cut off point for balance.

Not to mention there is a certain threshhold for points - so jsut jacking them up does not work.

Simply put, as long as genestealers remain troops they should not have their power increased.

sydbridges
15-02-2009, 04:09
True - but you get my point (besides, with structure points the genestealers will still have one hell of a job on their claws).

And they'll be very sad if/when it inevitably explodes, but yeah. I just thought it was funny that technically, a Land Raider is tougher than a Baneblade against 'stealers.

AmBlam
15-02-2009, 09:43
Some tyranid players think Genestealers were victims of 5th Edition saying the rending nerf was aimed at Assault cannons alone but I disagree. I think they are much better costed now. I hope the days of 4+ save one size fits all units running round the table blowing stuff up is over now.

holmcross
15-02-2009, 10:00
Stealers were obviously effected by the 5th edition rending change, but I think it ended up hurting Raveners, CC Warriors and Lictors much more. These units are much more costly and they just don't hit as hard as they should.

Kitted out warriors can be fearsome, but they get expensive very fast.