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View Full Version : Are Gondor's Warriors idiots or just unloyal?



HsojVvad
15-02-2009, 05:11
Watching RotK. I am at the scene where Gandalf knocks out Denethor after he tells everyone to flee. I just noticed in the back ground the guards just watching Gandalf beating up Denethor and they do nothing?

:wtf: aren't they there to protect him? I can understand Gandalf getting the first hit, but 2,3,4 hits and they don't even come running to his rescue?

Or are they really that disloyal to him and couldn't care that he was beaten up.

Also when Faramir their own Captian, they let him burn? Even when Denethor tells them too? I can understand following orders, but at least there should have been some hesitation at least, but they don't even blink.

Are they idiots, unloyal or just blah? I have no respect for the Gondor soldiers that were on top on the White City. The other Gondor slodiers I can respect but not the dweeps that are on the top of the city doing absolutly nothing.

What do you guys think?

olmsted
15-02-2009, 07:11
well gandalf is something above kings. something like a god or close to that so in all respects gandalf trumps denethor. however if im correct the knights of the tree/citadel/whatever the hell they were are sworn directly to the king and therefore would follow his words to the letter.

seems backwards and goes against itself but eh.

Draquenoire
15-02-2009, 07:11
The movie takes a certain amount of liberties with the story. And yes, what happens in the movie is stupid. In the book Gandalf does not beat up Denethor in front of the guard. Also there is a guard (Beregond?) who does try like hell to protect Faramir from being cooked with his dad and even kills to keep Faramir alive. And Denethor is a crackpot for a reason in the book. He used the Palantir to see the future (among other things) and Sauron, using another Palantir, manipulated what Denethor seen. Obviously Sauron did not give Denethor a rosy, happy vision of the future. I could be wrong. Its been a while since I read LotR so I am really rusty and I am too lazy to stand up, turn around, and actually open up RotK to double check.

andyg2006
15-02-2009, 10:59
Yes, Gandalf does trump Denethor - Denethor might be a king, but Gandalf is renowned all over the place and is a lot more than this (and everyone knows it).

The Fountain court guys and bodyguards are loyal, but they also have brains.
They know that Denethor is crazy, but they would not be able to refuse a direct order (just like Faramir has doubts, but his honour will not allow him to refuse when he is told to reclaim Osgiliath).
This is the reason why they follow Denethor's order to burn Faramir...it's a direct order, so they can't refuse it.
If Denethor said "Kill Gandalf" they'd have to try, but he doesn't, so they reckon there must be some reason why Gandalf is attacking their boss and give him ther benefit of the doubt.
Also, they've just seen Denethor order Faramir and his men out on what is obviously a suicide mission for no gain whatsoever and loyalty works 2 ways: give your life for someone, but only someone who is worth giving your life for...not some mad old fool.

Denthor doesn't have a Palantir (this is what happened to Saruman). The reason why Denethor goes nuts is because:
1) Inferiority Complex = as he knows that his family line doesn't actually have the right to rule (which is why they are 'Stewards' instead of 'Kings').
2) Unused to death = Denethor might be a ruler and have the right to rule, but he's no tactician and isn't used to seeing so much death and destruction (especially as he doesn't actually go round fighting people himself and instead he leaves all the battles to his sons).
3) He relied on Boromir to do everything for him and even though people were getting killed all over the place, Denethor's one hope was that Boromir would kill all the 'bad guys' and win the day (as he sees Faramir as not being of any use). However, when B. dies, what's left of Denethor's mind snaps and he believes that there's no hope for his country anymore.

Shadowphrakt
15-02-2009, 11:38
Denthor doesn't have a Palantir (this is what happened to Saruman).

Denethor does have a palantir, he began secretly using a palantir to probe Sauron's strength. The effort aged him quickly, and the knowledge of Sauron's overwhelming force depressed him greatly. Unlike SarumanDenethor was too strong to be corrupted by Sauron's lies, but neither was he able to control the palantir, though he believed he did. The palantir only revealed what Sauron wanted Denethor to see: the strength of Mordor.

Boromir's death depressed Denethor further, and he became ever more grim. Nonetheless he continued to fight Sauron with every resource at his disposal until the forces of Mordor arrived a the gates of the White City, at which point he lost all hope.

He commits suicide in the novel (iirc) He laid himself down on the pyre and so died, clasping the palantír in his hands. He also attempted to take the grievously injured and apparently dying Faramir with him, but was thwarted by the timely intervention of Peregrin took with help from Gandalf and Beregond

jaws900
15-02-2009, 13:42
Gandalf is highly rispected in Minas Tirith and Bergond also feels alot of respect for him so they mus think that his disision is best. the ones burning Faramir are probally his servents that would burn along with him if the disagreed. I can't understand them but everyone else i can as everyone who has been near Denathor has seen that he's gone mad. The worst bit is that he's actually quite a good fighter with fight of 5 and a rather good stat all round for cheap points and althought his special rules is a downside his 3 will save's him so many times. He only lacks the defence that most other hero's of gondor have due to ot wearing heavy armour or carrying a shiled. He's an **** but a useful one.

Pitalla Crimson
15-02-2009, 15:44
denethor is not a king, he is a steward.
Besides the guards kinda knew that he was crack nuts so they had more comfort security with gandalf.

The GOTFC are sworn to protect the white tree and they only answer to the KING not the STWEWARD.

Titivillus
15-02-2009, 16:13
Denethor does have a palantir, he began secretly using a palantir to probe Sauron's strength. The effort aged him quickly, and the knowledge of Sauron's overwhelming force depressed him greatly. Unlike SarumanDenethor was too strong to be corrupted by Sauron's lies, but neither was he able to control the palantir, though he believed he did. The palantir only revealed what Sauron wanted Denethor to see: the strength of Mordor.

Absolutely right, but if I remember correctly, Saruman was not corrupted to the degree that the movies portray. He didn't "serve" Mordor as he claims in the movies; he felt he was doing whatever was necessary to oppose the power of the Eye. This was no doubt inspired by what Sauron showed him, but Saruman was proud enough to think he could resist despair and the lies of the Eye when he was not. His army was simply a way of fighting back, or so he thought.

I always felt that the way that the movies downplay the despair felt by Denethor and the misguided nature of Saruman really took something important from the novels. Much of the novels are about courage and doing what is right in the face of incredible odds (Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, etc.), and by making Saruman simply evil and Denethor mad without reason eliminates an important opposition that is more complex than just good/evil.

As for the Warriors in the movie...bleh. Gandalf was always respected by the general populace, and Denethor was only a steward, but still...if felt like a pretty quick and dirty solution that was put in for completeness, but in a half-arsed way.

HsojVvad
16-02-2009, 04:03
well gandalf is something above kings. something like a god or close to that so in all respects gandalf trumps denethor.

I have to disagree here strongly. Ok, I forget what happens in the books, but by going in the movies, Gandalf is not above kings. Just look how King Theoden acts to Gandalf. Yes he resects him highly, but Theoden knows he is above Gandalf and act and talks like it. He dosn't even listen to him about not going to Helms Deep. (It looks like that was the right choice after all and Gandalf would have been wrong.)

So Gandalf is not above Kings at all. Hell he is not even above Denethor, and Denethor is not even a King. I remember reading in the books, when Gandalf came to the White City in FotR to look and read the scrolls, he had to ask Denethor permission to leave the White City again. So going by this he is not above kings at all.

olmsted
16-02-2009, 05:22
well considering that gandalf is in fact a Maia spirit who was resurrected into gandalf the white when he was vanquished at Khazad-Dum. and according to "Tolkien the illustrated encyclopeaedia" by david day the maiar were created by the Ainur otherwise known as the powers of arda and were the mightiest powers that were. 15 of the of the ainur were the valor being the greatest. the lesser spirits were the maiar.


so yeah gandalf being one of the maiar is above and beyond the likes of men.....


yeah...... um im gonna need to take that stapler back mmmkay?

HsojVvad
17-02-2009, 12:43
Just because Gandalf is above Kings, he dosn't act like it. He respects the athority of the King and still does and obeys what the Kings says.

I believe most if not all the gods don't know that he is a Mia or what not, just a wizard not someone who is above a King. (well I could be wrong, but I don't rememeber reading it anywhere that would lead to it.)

That is why I don't think Gandalf is taken above as a King. When I read the books and seeing the movie, there is no indication of him being above a King. Like I said, just because he can be, dosn't mean he acted like it.

thorgrim
17-02-2009, 15:00
The wizards are all maia. They were sent to middle earth to oppose the eye but were clothed in flesh. By being made mortal there powers are reduced so that they can only challenge the eye with the aid of the free peoples.

Gandalf didn't directly reveal his power unless needed and fufilled his quest as intended by rallying the people of the west against the eye. Saruman through his study of the one ring believed he could master it and gain power over sauron and so allied himself with mordor to gain knowledge of the ring and to increase his power for when he would need to fight Mordor. Radagast became concerned with the birds and beasts of middle earth to the exclusion of all others. Of the 2 blue wizards not much is know although it is assumed that they failed in there task of rallying the east against the eye.

Back to the question though the film doesn't portray the scene too well. For a start there isn't a guard of the fountain court only a guard of the citadel. The citadel guard are sworn directly to denethor. In the book pippin askes beregond to try and save faramir as denethor intends to burn him alive. Beregaond deserts his post (punishable by death) and slays several of denethors servents as they bring wood and torches to denethor. When pippin returns with ganalf they find beregrond on the steps of the house of the dead with denethor inside. denethor reveals that he has a palintir and has seen the strength of sauron and chooses death sooner rather than later and kills himself.

Tancred II von Quenelles
17-02-2009, 18:59
Mayby, it s a wise idea to try to read the book - in this crappish film not only walliant gondorians look stupid

HsojVvad
17-02-2009, 19:14
I did read the book, so long ago it was. I don't believe the movie was crappish at all, still one of my all time favorites. Just funny after watching it for the 20th or so time, you start to notice all the small things.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
18-02-2009, 00:16
The movie takes a certain amount of liberties with the story. And yes, what happens in the movie is stupid. In the book Gandalf does not beat up Denethor in front of the guard. Also there is a guard (Beregond?) who does try like hell to protect Faramir from being cooked with his dad and even kills to keep Faramir alive. And Denethor is a crackpot for a reason in the book. He used the Palantir to see the future (among other things) and Sauron, using another Palantir, manipulated what Denethor seen. Obviously Sauron did not give Denethor a rosy, happy vision of the future. I could be wrong. Its been a while since I read LotR so I am really rusty and I am too lazy to stand up, turn around, and actually open up RotK to double check.

I agree some of the things in the movie dont make sense. Reading the books is the best way to get the "real' picture.:angel:
I also hate how they show low end orcs destroying the fine soldiery of Gondor in less than exciting fashion. They only give valour to knights, and heroes in the movies. That bugs me.

Kronos
18-02-2009, 00:45
I also hate how they show low end orcs destroying the fine soldiery of Gondor in less than exciting fashion. They only give valour to knights, and heroes in the movies. That bugs me.

Starnge, i swear in the film a good bunch of gondorion soldiers stayed as they were told by gandalf when the gate of minis tirith was breached, some took a thumping by the trolls but a good few took one or two down (by arrows but it still counts) and i believe not running away from a armoured mordor troll is quite brave.


But yh i do agree that the orcs just seem to roll around in the film and somehow manage to take out a few soldiers in what looks like a rather messy rampage.

jaws900
18-02-2009, 08:46
I hyave only read the Hobbit, The Fellowship and Half of the Two Towers and i noticed majoir errors and misstake in the films. For example it makes not mention of Lurtz. and Elf's did NOT come to the aid of rohan at helms deep.

Fredmans
18-02-2009, 12:27
The elves not only suddenly appeared, spiting the Last Alliance, they just as quickly disappeared. I have heard rumours that the elves were supposed to be a fighting-Arwen delivery system. Then they had a change of heart, but the battle was already shot. Therefore, the elves all suddenly disappear and left are the old and young of Rohan.

There are many changes in the movie in order to highlight certain themes and omit others. It IS a grand movie, but Gondor is perhaps on the end of the beating changing stick in this one, I am afraid, and in my opinion Faramir is the most misrepresented character of them all.

/Fredmans

HsojVvad
18-02-2009, 13:33
I hyave only read the Hobbit, The Fellowship and Half of the Two Towers and i noticed majoir errors and misstake in the films. For example it makes not mention of Lurtz. and Elf's did NOT come to the aid of rohan at helms deep.

that was not a mistake. Come one people, PJ was making a movie. You can't Put the books into film. If you did, it would have been boring. You can say that PJ made a mistake by mixing Frodo and Sam, with the rest of the Fellowship. That did not happen in the book, it was all one block. First he delt with Sam and Frodo then the rest of the Fellowship. (or it was the other way around). That would have made a boring film.

Also PJ couldn't put the Elf's in the movie for some reason, but he wanted to represent the Last Allience somehow, so he put the Elves in Helms Deep. A small way to pay Homage to the Last Allience. At least he was able to get Elves into the movies and play a major part of the movie. He could have left them out, but then people would be complaining that there were no Elves in the movies.

He could only put so much into a 12 hour movie. I think he did an awsome job. Can you do better? I don't think so. So easy to nitpick but I don't see anyone praising what he did.

borithan
26-02-2009, 20:18
And he missed out the incredibly boring and totally pointless bit with Tom Bombadil... still don't understand why it even exist in the book.

HsojVvad
26-02-2009, 20:33
And he missed out the incredibly boring and totally pointless bit with Tom Bombadil... still don't understand why it even exist in the book.

Me either. My cousin tried to expalain to me that only Tom was the only one who was able to resist the Ring. I say so what, what if he resisited the Ring. That dosn't bring any bearing to the book what's so ever since he dosn't appear anymore.

So you see PJ did a good thing, or we could all have been bored for over an hour doing the Barrow Downs scene.

Things had to be left out or changed for our society to enjoy the movie.

jaws900
27-02-2009, 02:51
Like Radagast. He's in the felowship book for about 2 pages and now more. But the Khandish mercaries only have 1 sentance.