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Negafex
05-12-2005, 15:52
which codex would i use? i want an army of space marines that are infact bad guys and evil but they dont believe in or worship chaos in any way, shape, or form. there fluff actually says that they are the rivals/enemys of both SM and CSM. how would i go about doing this?

Str10_hurts
05-12-2005, 15:59
Just take standard marine dex, and make them arrogant bastards...theyd kill IG officer for speaking up an (infirior) tactic.

Look up one of the marine chapters in the armageddon website. (forgot the name)

VanHel
05-12-2005, 16:05
That would be the Marines Malevolent.

Stu
05-12-2005, 16:06
Codex Chaos Space Marines
You don't need to have a mark of chaos and your units will be closer to pirates/renegades.
Note that some of the chaos mutations you can still use giving them new names for instance daemonic visage could bloody trophies or something like that however you would have to forget some of the options in the army.
You could also use the Codex Space Marine however I personally wouldn't see it as very fluffy because you would follow rules that no longer apply to your renegades.
however tell us what you decide to do later

CrimsonTider
05-12-2005, 16:06
Or, you could use the chaos dex and just not take any marks or daemon weapons or daemonic upgrades.

Str10_hurts
05-12-2005, 16:11
It also might be interesting when they went evil or were.

If it was somewhat in the beginning you could just use nightlord rules...see terror tactics and being realy EVIL.

Or a later founding then i suggest keeping it to basic dex and make the looks dark and evil. And with the traits you can get close to your fluff.

Melchor
05-12-2005, 16:13
I would look at both codices and then deceide which ruleset is the most fitting for your idea.
Take the Chaos codex for a rag-tag pirate/warband feel, and the Marine Codex for a more organized and modern army.

As has already been said, renaming special rules and wargear can get you quite far as well...

Good luck! And be sure to keep us posted! :)

Griefbringer
05-12-2005, 16:17
You mean regular space marines are not bad or evil? Hey, they are psychotic killers supporting a brutal, totalitarian and intolerant regime (Imperium).

Or are you thinking something along the lines of Tyrant of Badab?

SmashemTaBitsa
05-12-2005, 16:50
I would check out the Chaos Dex. Iron Warriors are pretty close to what you seem to be looking for. They reject the ideas of the chaos gods and no daemons can be used. Furthermore, all 'mutations' are actually bionic upgrades, which could really be a blast to model.

heretic
05-12-2005, 16:54
use the Chaos codex as said earlier, and just use regular marines and make a Red Corsair army, I figure more rules will eventually come out to support them.

Minister
05-12-2005, 17:02
Dark Angels.

heretic
05-12-2005, 17:04
DA are only "evil" when they go after the Fallen

d4m0s4n
05-12-2005, 17:16
which codex would i use?

You could use either.

Luke
05-12-2005, 17:17
@ Iaconic:

which is iirc all/most the time

i was going to suggest da but on reflection i would have to say that they arent really evil. their motives are questionable but they are the first legion after all and they are just trying to redeem themselves to the imperium

Sai-Lauren
05-12-2005, 17:25
How do you want them to play? Look through the legions, and the variant marine lists/chapter traits until you find the one you want. Depends on how long you want them to have been renegade (recent Marines, long time - or if you fancy The Relictors - Chaos).

If you go with chaos, don't take obviously chaos stuff (Defilers, Daemons), and change the names on some wargear.

Hortwerth
05-12-2005, 21:24
You mean regular space marines are not bad or evil? Hey, they are psychotic killers supporting a brutal, totalitarian and intolerant regime (Imperium).

Sigged :D

Renegades may be assembled using any list of the 3 available.

TWB
05-12-2005, 21:48
This Marine Army would be short on friends, I'd suggest taking Chaos Space marines without all the chaos bits, this would leave you short on a few things, but most of it could be used.

AgentZero
05-12-2005, 22:07
Just use this very basic , purely evil formula:

What would Martha Stewart do?

Those Marines will be so evil children will melt within 100 meters of them.

Puffin Magician
05-12-2005, 22:23
I'd say it would depend on how resourceful this Chapter is. You'll want to use the Space Marine Codex to represent an army that was well-equipped before going Renegade, has an enormous grasp on technology [Iron Warriors/Iron Hands], and/or a Chapter that very recently switched sides and so have not lost much of their fancy, Loyalist-only equipment like Land Speeders and Assault Cannons.

The Chaos list, as many have said, is great for an embattled Traitor Chapter, that has fought long battles and suffered quite a few losses. They would've needed to resort to pirating, scavenging, and the black market for restocking, so do no longer have the higher-tech weapons and units. Many, many pieces of wargear are great for non-Chaos items, all it takes is a quick rewording of the selection.

There is also the Lost and the Damned list from Codex: Eye of Terror. I'm pretty certain that other, non-Space Marine units are manditory so this isn't the route for you. It's great for an army that has been whittled down over the decades and now recruits mercenaries, bounty hunters and other traitors, all easily representable by the Blood Pact, Mutant and Traitor troop choices. They've also had to capture Imperial Guard battle tanks, as their Predators and Land Raiders are long since destroyed by the Loyalists.

ratatosk
05-12-2005, 22:46
Puffin, i personally like this suggestion, and after i have completed my beastman IG army i may take this up as my next project. Unfortunatly this is unlikely before the middle of next year :(

chabamkazam
05-12-2005, 22:53
I would say choose the fallen angels they are not followers of Chaos but their own spoffy little ideas about bringing the emperor back which others believe is heresy. They are like regular SM but they also are kind of evil. Also you get fun little bonuses against Dark Angels should you know anyone who uses them.

Hoshi No Koe
05-12-2005, 23:02
This is the road I'm going with my Alpha Legion. I'm using the Latd list, and using Traitors as troops choices and a couple of blood pact units as elites. I felt it would represent AL better fluffwise. A couple of marines spearheading an assortment of rebel citizens, mercenaries and criminals trained up by their operatives to form a coherent fighting force. I've scrounged up every Necromunda and old IG models I'd had for years and painted them in an urban colour scheme to represent all the rag tag soldiers. I'm thinking of using a couple of squads of Elysian drop troops to use with the blood pact rules. These represent the AL cell's permanent human fighting force which have been collected from the best rebels and cultists they could find and given advanced training. These guys are led by the actual AL operatives when fighting. No daemons, the only vehicles I'm considering are Sentinels. Basically an Alpha Legion band that have been fighting more than they could sustain their numbers and have had to rely on turncoat troops even more than usual.

That might be a them your looking for to represent your evil marines. The marines malevolent or any chapter of your own devising with similar disdain for normal humans could also be a cool force to represent a more recently turned chapter. I can't recall if the Marines malevolent have been declared excomunicate yet or that the last piece of fluff on them mentioned they were probably about to be.

Toppan
05-12-2005, 23:33
come to think of it, TS arent evil at all really, theyre just really REALLY mad

slide
06-12-2005, 02:37
actully - from what I read allot of the chaos space marines dont have that strong a tie with chaos - as mentioned earlier the Iron Warriors are more machine then mutant , the Night Llords are said to be nihilistic pirates who dont belive in anything and the alpha legion arent so much evil as have the mother of all anti social parental issues.

heretic
06-12-2005, 03:57
the Fallen aren't supposingly chaos, however any mention of them says they are, so I really don't know

Scythe
06-12-2005, 12:17
Of course you could also use the 3rd edition cursed founding rules, if you can find them. Not longer tournament legal, but they give you a space marine list that is not chaos and neither has typical imperial rules, like and they shall know no fear and limited weapons and tanks available.

boogle
06-12-2005, 12:49
the Red Corsairs and Sons of Malice are probably the best examples of renegades

Griefbringer
06-12-2005, 15:06
Woohoo, I have been sigged again!

As for the renegade marines, remember that Astral Claws (the remains of whom formed the ocre of Red Corsairs) were not the only chapter to go rogue in Badab war - they were also joined by Mantis Warriors, Executioners and Lamenters (all of which turned back to loyalists after the war, though were required to embark on a hundred year crusade).

Puffin Magician
06-12-2005, 15:25
The Executioners, Lamenters and Mantis Warriors have all been given a reprieve and the Emperor's forgiveness. That's why they're on the century-long penitent Crusade [until ~003.M42] rather than getting their asses kicked into the Maelstrom. They were more misguided than Renegade, and now they're back to just plain loyal, with the addition of the Inquisitorial eye looming over them.

Several pieces of fluff suggest that the Lamenters have been all but annihilated by Hive Fleet Kraken.

boogle
06-12-2005, 15:31
I would say choose the fallen angels they are not followers of Chaos but their own spoffy little ideas about bringing the emperor back which others believe is heresy. They are like regular SM but they also are kind of evil. Also you get fun little bonuses against Dark Angels should you know anyone who uses them.
I don't think that they have ideas about bringing the Emperor back (thats just Cypher i think), they see El'Johnson as a traitor to the Dark Angels, and are more Ronin that Chaotic

Sir_Turalyon
06-12-2005, 16:37
Chaos univided would do perfectly... most of them claim they don't worship chaos at all.

Inquisitor_Pink
06-12-2005, 18:40
I'm working on a celestial lions army, normal Marine codex. But as they are the few remanents that survived the massacre where their chapter was destroyed I have given them massive limitations. All of their apothicaries were killed by inquisition snipers so none of them.
Restricted to anything that could have realistically got away, and is low maintenance. No heavy support. All the troops that survived have infiltrate or jump packs.. Fast moving light infantry and a couple of reconditioned speeders... For a pirate force i would go with something similar heavy fast attack low heavy support.

Griefbringer
06-12-2005, 22:51
The Executioners, Lamenters and Mantis Warriors have all been given a reprieve and the Emperor's forgiveness. That's why they're on the century-long penitent Crusade [until ~003.M42].

Shouldn't that be more like until 013.M42 since the Badab war ended on 912.M41?

And don't forget that before the Lamenters departed on the crusade, they had their chapter banner repaired by the Adeptus Sororitas!

onlainari
06-12-2005, 23:17
which codex would i use? i want an army of space marines that are infact bad guys and evil but they dont believe in or worship chaos in any way, shape, or form. there fluff actually says that they are the rivals/enemys of both SM and CSM. how would i go about doing this?
Night Lords.

Puffin Magician
06-12-2005, 23:52
Shouldn't that be more like until 013.M42 since the Badab war ended on 912.M41?
You're right, I had the dates mixed up. The Lamenters joined the Rebellion in 903.M41. The date they were sent on their Crusades seems to be disputed, as Ironhands.com lists both 907 and 913 as possible dates.


And don't forget that before the Lamenters departed on the crusade, they had their chapter banner repaired by the Adeptus Sororitas!
I'm sure the Tyranids enjoyed eating it.

Griefbringer
07-12-2005, 21:15
Well, the Lamenters surrendered after an ambush in 908.M41 but the way I read it all the three chapters were only judged and sent to the crusade after the whole Badab affair was over.

OTOH: I noticed that in WD303 there is a six page article about post-Heresy renegade Imperial Space Marines, plus two pages about painting Red Corsairs.