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Born Again
16-02-2009, 05:16
Pretty simple. Title says it all.

A few codexes ago, GW changed the way special characters were written, introducing them into the main bestiary and army list. In WD 326, Jervis Johnson said this was to help encourage people to use them more. So I was wondering if they were getting used more.

The other thing is, there are certainly more special characters now, I think... I know in the Ork codex, it's possible to take 5 special characters in one army (two as HQ's, then Boss Snikrot, Boss Zagstruk and Kaptin Badrukk as unit upgrades) while in the new marine 'dex there are 6 just for the Ultramarines, and I assume like the Orks not all are HQs. Also I believe the daemon herald level characters can be taken with several as one HQ, correct? What's the most Special Characters you've ever seen on the board at once?

Personally, I like the idea of them, but they often miss out as they either don't fit in with the theme of the army, or I don't have the points to spend.
I'm quite keen to include some of the 'lesser' characters though (ie; the ones that are upgrades to units, like Zagstruk) if I get the chance though, and their a great way to add some character without going for the uber characters like Calgar, Abaddon etc.

Hellebore
16-02-2009, 05:21
Whenever my opponent's Avatar needs a good fisting.

Hellebore

mughi3
16-02-2009, 05:26
Always.
special characters are not what they used to be. gone are the days when you could use the armory to customize your own unique(and often times better) generic HQ.

Now GW has gone a route where you are almost required to use a character to make your army themed or even work right. as a deathwing player we have no choice now. we must take belial, i'd rather have the old rules with any member of the inner circle in terminator armor being able to lead the DW instead of being forced to take a named character(and a pretty weak one as well).

starlight
16-02-2009, 05:28
High level (army modifying) - Calgar/Abaddon/etc - not to date and likely never.

Mid level (Troop unlocking or army theme) - Vulkan/Belial/etc - when required for the list (Deathwing, et al).

Low level (unit upgrades) - Boss Zagstruk/Telion/etc - when appropriate to the theme.

Wiseman
16-02-2009, 05:38
As a Deathwing player, every game, without fail.

Khornies & milk
16-02-2009, 05:39
Using Starlight's list....mid level, Belial..so I can field a DW list.

That's it....even for Apoc.

Radium
16-02-2009, 05:44
I almost always field Yriel, because he's just so good. Or Phoenix Lords (in apoc that is...) because they're cool.

Kalec
16-02-2009, 05:47
I use SC's when they fit my list. Sometimes I prefer Kor'sarro Khan, and sometime I would rather have combat tactics for my bikers. I don't treat them any differently just because they have a fancy nametag.

dodicula
16-02-2009, 05:48
Always, as I have to use Beliel. I play Imperial Fists, but Lysander Wing is gone.

Alx_152
16-02-2009, 06:22
I only use the phoenix lords sometimes.

Ubermensch Commander
16-02-2009, 06:49
Never. I simply do not own any. Never saw any need for 'em either, outside of Belial when wanting to do a Deathwing army or something similar.
If other people want to play them though, its their business, especially with characters both
a) not needing opponents permission to play them
b) no longer being restricted to a single army (LYsander for Imp Fists for example)

Still do not like some of the combos people come up with though! hahah. pain.

olmsted
16-02-2009, 07:06
only hard boyz. seeing as how my two armies guard and space wolves either require a certain point limit to play or in the wolf case the characters are too expensive or are useless in the case of ulrick the slayer and the logan grimnar costing the same as a land raider

Jacko
16-02-2009, 07:25
Most of my gameplaying experience is set within campaigns so special characters don't show up very often at all. I'm lucky in that codex changes for my particular army, Nurgle themed Chaos, didn't really affect my army composition too badly.

That said, I don't think special characters really have a place in games of 2000-2500 points or less. I'd consider using one for Apocalypse as I think that's the proper scale of force required for such unique individuals to be present. I doubt someone like Typhus would get out of bed unless he's got the chance of slaughtering a few hundred people.

Creeping Dementia
16-02-2009, 07:29
I'm one of the guys that plays armies that have not been graced by GW with usable special characters, so I never use them. I play Tau, Nids, and am starting a Sisters army, and none of the special characters I can take have any real strategic use. So I picked never.

Oathwarden
16-02-2009, 07:40
in the same boat constantly for my DW and never for my tau

Kettu
16-02-2009, 07:52
Well, I'd love for my Sisters to be co-led by my Canoness and Saint Katherine incarnate (Celestine for those not in the know) but her rules are kinda sub-standard on the most part and as she is only useable at 1500 upwards and only worth the -d6 faith risk at apoc level then she isn't worth the effort at anything but apocalypse games.

Born Again
16-02-2009, 08:08
Hmm. Wow, having never read to DA book I didn't realize Belial was a necessity to take a Deathwing force. That's kinda stupid, really, as Jacko said characters of that stature are unlikely to be bothered with small engagements, what happens if you want to have a small game using DW? You should be able to take other inner circle members.

Apart from that it seems to be along my thoughts: occasionally, if the scenario is right, but generally not. I'm with Creeping Dementia in that some armies have no real point in their special characters: although you sometimes see a Farsight Enclave Tau force, when have you ever seen Shadowsun or Aun'Va in a Tau army?

Negafex
16-02-2009, 08:08
prettymuch never. i take a very minimalist aproach to my HQs. some people like their 300pt daemon princes, i prefere 1 70 pt chaos lord and an extra squad of deathguard to accomany him

Gen.Steiner
16-02-2009, 08:13
Well, with my 'Deathwing', always (see other Deathwing players), although he's not Belial, he's Hektor Androcles of the Righteous Fists. With my other armies (Ultramarines, Righteous Fists, Imperial Guard, Orks etc) - NEVER!

Well, actually, that's not strictly true, I am building a Kult of Speed list in which there are no Orks on foot and I needed Bikes as a Troops choice so had to take the Ork biker special character... but I renamed him!

Edit: So I voted 'Sometimes' after all that prevarication.

Kikit The Manipulator
16-02-2009, 08:15
I'm the same as the above, with the cheap supprot HQ and another squad or two of troops.
I never use special characters (I did when I started though, cause they were 'oh so good and easy'). Now I try to kill special characters in the most humiliating ways I can, last game I crushed Graskul (or however it is spelled) in a tank shock (He needed anything but a 1, and guess what he got!). Love waveserpents, bought with points that would have been used on a HQ choice.

Irondog
16-02-2009, 08:49
I doubt someone like Typhus would get out of bed unless he's got the chance of slaughtering a few hundred people.

Quoted for truth. I'm of the same opinion. I don't use special characters at all, I prefer build the story/mythology of one of my own characters rather than use one of GWs 'pre-packaged' ones. As an ork player, I could load up on more special characters than nearly anyone else, but I don't.

Now, I don't have a problem with people using SCs who are required to do so (Deathwing players for example), but using them to boost the power level of your army isn't sporting in my opinion. I'd rather win a game through superior tactics and gameplay, as opposed to shoving Ghazghkull and Snikrot down someones throat.

chromedog
16-02-2009, 09:07
I've resisted since 1987 (played with Kantor in the "battle of the Farm" scenario in the RT RB.).
Not once in 2nd-4th ed. Only recently started thinking about a couple for my SM in 5th (purely to see what effect shifting units around the "scoring" table has for me.)
Even then, the SCs will not be from their respective chapters, "adopted" into mine, but variant conversions using their rules with suitable names.

Trying out Kantor and He'stan (gotta be some use for a SM cmdr with fist and SB, right? And the old "iron Father" mini is a good start for a 'forgefather').

Vaktathi
16-02-2009, 09:10
The only time I've ever used special characters was in Apocalypse.

Generally they either don't fit my army, I don't like them (either in theme or the way they operate, or I think they are overdone) or I don't like the model.

The only one I'd ever be tempted to use is Yarrick, but then I'm still required to field an HQ command squad (for now) so It's really not that doable, plus he's expensive.

It seems like every 2nd space marine army you see has Vulkan in it now (and seeing a Vulkan count-as in Ultramarines blue is getting to be physically painful).

the neckbone
16-02-2009, 09:15
as a slann player lucius is kinda naff and abbadon is too expensive outside of apoc.
And before you think i dont take heros because i run two lash princess i only run one sorcerer with a lash.

Marlow
16-02-2009, 09:20
I play Ultramarines and the only time I am not using a Special Character is when I want Bikes as Troops so I use a mounted Captain (and even then I could take Khan if I wanted)

In the Codex the Ultramarine Company Captains have a Title so I like to think of the Special Characters as being these other Captains. For example Vulkan is the "Master of the Armoury" (for the rerolls) and then I can refer to them by title rather than character name.

Marines do really well as most of there characters are only a few points more than a DIY Master/Captain so you might as well use them. Many older Codices loose out as there choices are so much mroe expensive.

the neckbone
16-02-2009, 09:27
Marines do really well as most of there characters are only a few points more than a DIY Master/Captain so you might as well use them. Many older Codices loose out as there choices are so much mroe expensive.

amen to that bo 25 more points for cassius is a steal

Eldorad
16-02-2009, 09:35
Imperial guard? None - I like the idea of creating my own characters.

ow likely is a special character gonna turn up to lead my troops when he has billions of others at his disposal?

Thud
16-02-2009, 09:39
I don't think I've ever fielded a Special Character before. I will, though, usually field one (Farsight) when I get back to playing Tau.

Hankyaku
16-02-2009, 09:43
Another DW player here, I don't even have the choice, but to take Belial. I picked "always". When I don't take Belial, I take Sammael, as DA in ordinary marine style is a laugh.
When I play SM, I usually take Shrike, I like the fleeting "greenies".
Okay, truth be told, sometimes I don't use them :D At those occasions their spec ability is not much of an advantage compared to an ordinary chapter master's ability to OB and to get customized gear.

When I play necrons, I usually don't but nowadays I'm thinking about using the Deceiver. So many ppl say he's good, so I just might give him a try. Who knows?

RCgothic
16-02-2009, 09:44
Nope. Hundreds of millions of battlefields in 40k and fewer than a hundred special characters. I might take one in the millionth game I play.

rooster27
16-02-2009, 09:45
always i have fit lucius into my 500 point list so he is allways there exept for when im useing double lash

mughi3
16-02-2009, 09:48
Hmm. Wow, having never read to DA book I didn't realize Belial was a necessity to take a Deathwing force. That's kinda stupid, really, as Jacko said characters of that stature are unlikely to be bothered with small engagements, what happens if you want to have a small game using DW? You should be able to take other inner circle members.

It's the way GW has changed the game.
back in 2nd named characters got "hero hammer" status. when one named character could pretty well walk through your entire force. because of this it led to a very negative view of named characters(previously called "special characters"). there were also points limits put on what size games named characters could be used in.

But that was ok because we had a full armory back then and could make a pretty personalized HQ for our forces.

Now as was started with the DA codex-
named character=army
if you want to play proper DW you must take belial(or his equivalent with a different name)

ravenwing requires sammael, and the new marine codex follows that path. they replaced the 4th ed "trait" system as a means to building a proper fluff based chapter themed army into
"take named character X and you are building chapter X".


I think this poll has already become a bit skewed. there are no "special character light" entries in the book. named characters are special characters, you take telion your using a special character, you take chronus, he'stan, or cassius your taking a "special" named character with rules outside the norm for generic characters or units in your army. it's not something like a -captain on a bike with X wargear-

Nym
16-02-2009, 10:08
I used Ursarkar Creed on several occasions, back in 4th edition. First turn was pretty much required to beat me opponent heavy hormagaunt list (I played IG gunline). I also used Yarick once, to see what he was capable of.

However ever since 5th edition came out, I've not used a single special character and I don't miss them.

Azhrarn
16-02-2009, 10:26
It depends, for my old space marine force I never did because I used a custom chapter. Haven't updated that list to the new book yet, so I wouldn't be 100% sure, but I'm guessing I still wouldn't.

For my Daemons however it is a different story. My list contains the Blue Scribes, Skulltaker and the Changeling. They're not required, but the tactical flexibility of the Scribes is second-to-none when it comes to abilities and Skulltaker adds a nasty punch to my 3 Bloodcrushers.

For the Changeling it's mainly that he is able to add quite a bit to a unit for a low cost, which is why he is included almost every time.

Brother Loki
16-02-2009, 10:27
I used Ursakar Creed during the 13th Black Crusade campaign at Warhammer World, but that's probably the first time in over a decade I've used one. I prefer to create my own characters.

Poseidal
16-02-2009, 10:45
I've used the Avatar (does he count? in 4th he has exactly the same restrictions as the others).

The only other one I've used is Yriel as he fit some of my lists better than the 'nilla Autarch. I have the Eldrad model, but never used him (I've used the model as a normal Farseer once or twice, ironically).

Sceleris
16-02-2009, 10:50
The only one I've used is Ku'gath in a nurgle daemon army - simply because he's amusing.

Give that the only way to get some army configuations is by using special characters I can see the appeal but wouldn't normally take them unless we were doing either a themed campaign or a big apoc battle.

Bloodknight
16-02-2009, 10:57
Depends on the army.

With my DE, whenever I play Wych Cult, Lelith leads it. I've tried every other at least once, but only Drazhar and Asdrubael Vect show up in my games when I play a big game.

My World Eaters are led by Kharn. He's cool from a fluff point of view, and one of the best SCs point per point, and you cannot build a sensibly mad Khorne character with the new codex who does not kill himself.

I've used Typhus once in a while in my DeathGuard, he's not really worth it over a DW general who's a lot cheaper.

I've tried all IG characters except Schaeffer (I don't like his implementation in the current codex) and Creed (he's a Cadian. I don't like Cadians), and used to use Macharius in early 3rd edition sometimes when SCs were agreed upon. In general, I leave all of them at home, they're not worth it.

I used to be one of the people who looked down on people who used SCs every time, but I think the designers want to see more of them on the table, and I am ok with that (I guess this is a bit of WARMACHINE influence).

DhaosAndy
16-02-2009, 11:02
Sometimes, just because I use the changling in my Tzeentch daemon army, it needs the light relief :)

In general I disapprove, particularly of the composition unlocking types. Rather than give choice to the player they tie say deathwing to a character, then you get two deathwing armies facing off, result irritating twaddle. :mad:

Carlos
16-02-2009, 11:15
Although more fun to invent our own characters, sometimes its just quicker when building an army to use a special character, such as my Eldar who will have Karandras or Asurmen tag along simply because I cant be arsed to throw an Autarch together. Plus I love their models.

My Tau only ever see Aun'shi on occasion (is he still legal?) simply because Shadowsun just isnt that good, and niether is farsight. Aun'va must be the most least-used character in the whole of 40K. He has NO rules that make him useful, beyond Ethereal Bomb.

Born Again
16-02-2009, 12:26
as a slann player lucius is kinda naff and abbadon is too expensive outside of apoc.
And before you think i dont take heros because i run two lash princess i only run one sorcerer with a lash.

I took me so long to figure out what you were talking about. For a moment I thought you were using RT-era space lizards when you said "slann". Then I got around to reading the second sentence.


Quoted for truth. I'm of the same opinion. I don't use special characters at all, I prefer build the story/mythology of one of my own characters rather than use one of GWs 'pre-packaged' ones. As an ork player, I could load up on more special characters than nearly anyone else, but I don't.


Me too. Hence why I didn't go for Ghazghkull in my Goff army. However, I like the 'lesser characters' that can add flavour. For instance, you could have your own warboss, big mek and etc, taking Snikrot could add a little interesting element. Haven't actually gotten around to doing it yet though. One day I'll build an army where I deem it suitable, I'm keen to try it.

Mozzamanx
16-02-2009, 12:31
Until I get me some Tacticals, Belial is coming in every single game I play.

Bob Hunk
16-02-2009, 13:01
When using the Deathwing, the answer is "always", as it's kind of forced upon us. I'm only really interested in using the rules for special characters who change the army organisation in some way, although normally renamed as my own character. :)

Ironhand
16-02-2009, 13:08
In the past I've never used special characters, nor permitted their use in any game I organized. The problem is that GW is making special characters essential to having any variant army (like the Deathwing), so I may have to start allowing them - limited to 1500+ points and only 1 per army.

Apocalypse of course is a different matter - everyone fields whatever they wish and special characters abound.

Johnnyfrej
16-02-2009, 14:18
I hate 40ks new trend of forcing you to take special characters to make your army "unique"(or at least not played as often as the million other SM armies). As a Chaos Marine player back in the day, I've always been content to use my books wargear and my modeling to make a "special character" of my own creation and not spamming Kharn and Ahriman or Lash Princes in every fragging game. If I am forced to play someone with SC's, I make sure they know full well what my opinion of them is.

the1stpip
16-02-2009, 16:10
The problem is my older armies don't use any SCs, but my SMs use Vulkan, and my Orks use Zagstruk, so they are becoming more prevalent.

Geoduck
16-02-2009, 17:18
I voted for "Never".

I play 'nids. :D




Geoduck...out!

Bekenel
16-02-2009, 17:33
One thing I don't get.. you can write pages and pages of background for your own characters. But if you use one of the characters from the book, does that change the fact you've created your own character?

I think people need to start thinking a lot more "counts as", and less "that guy there, he is Vulkan Hestan". I'd be tempted to make an awesome looking Techmarine/Master of the Forge for Vulkan. Sure, he's got a Relic Blade and not a Servo-arm/Powerfist, but you can still model a Heavy Flamer easier that way, and it fits that a Master of the Forge would bring better weapons to his army.

carldooley
16-02-2009, 18:13
I voted for "Never".

I play 'nids. :D




Geoduck...out!

careful, one of the kids that I play still uses the red terror.

as for me, I play 4 races
Tau - no need
Nids - no need
Eldar - Avatar & Baharroth(when he arrives)
SM - Kantor & Khan

40kdhs
16-02-2009, 19:00
I have never used DH special characters because they are no good. Special characters are fun when you use them in a big apocolypse game.

Hicks
16-02-2009, 19:12
I never used a SC in 40K, but I plan on using a count has Korsarro with my White scars.

Tae
16-02-2009, 19:27
Had there been an Iron Hands charcter I'd have used him in every game.

As there's not, I don't use any.

Earthbeard
16-02-2009, 19:34
I use Typhus a lot, I like his bloated butt, gets me going :D

Other SC, once every fourth season if they are lucky.

TheDarkDuke
16-02-2009, 19:41
Depends what army I bring to the table. While I am using my BT, Necron, Tau and upcoming Ork I have none. My CSM however are DG and wanted Typhus so my games include Typhus.

My brother using Nids, CSM, Eldar and DE he doesn't use any, but he is building a Salamander army and will be fielding Vulkan from time to time.

Nabeshin1106
16-02-2009, 20:35
The only SC I use on a regular basis is Belial, but that's because I need him to field my pure Deathwing.

Other than that I never use them in 40k, although I'll use Kantor if I ever get my Crimson Fists up and running.

Jellicoe
16-02-2009, 20:44
Only in Apocalypse and only once - Dante and Lemartes appeared in a marine army I have. My normal army are Tyranids who don't really do the special character thing.

I would quite like to field my Abaddon model sometime mind you. Had him for years and never yet played him

FraustyTheSnowman
16-02-2009, 20:51
Most often when I play straight sisters I put Celestine in if there's room. I think she's a pretty good balance of risk vs reward, and she's just fun to use. In my marines/sisters list I use Vulkan, call it my one little indulgence into utter cheese.

For daemons I use Epidemius a lot, and used to throw KuGath in there too, but have been swaping him out for a generic GUO instead, though Fateweaver is a possible alternative too.

For guard the only special character I think I've used sense second edition is Schaefer, which I wish I could get the last chances without him, but can't. I have most of the special character models for guard, but their just excuses to paint pretty, and if they ever get used it's as "bob the heroic senior officer" or "fred the commissar".

For my deathguard/chaos list I keep meaning to try out Typhus, but never do. I have the model, and will probably never use it as a chaos lord, so might as well get something out of it. Fabius Bile is the only other one I'd probaby ever use, as he was the only named character I liked when I started in second ed. Back then his stats we're completely random, so you would wind up with some crazy stuff, and he coud upgrade anything in the codex if I remember right.

For taue and eldar I've never used any, and probably never will. The eldar characters bore me, and the tau are about the same. The girl tau in the white sleak battle suit, her I would use the model of, but not her stats.

Armored company needs some, but allas...I doubt armored company will be redone other than "you can take a dog snot load of tanks in the new guard codex!"

For dark eldar, I still havent even played as them yet. Would have used Lillith to make a wych cult, but from what I've seen they changed how that worked a little. Still like the model, her and that incubi special dude. Probably would never use either, but the models will make it into my army once I either get a new Lillith, or sculpt her bloody arm and leg that I lost.

Orks, yeah...We're going to see some characters there. The komando dude is cool, and will definately make enough appearances to warrant me making up a model for him. That and the storm boy character, I really like him too, and will be making up a conversion. I'll probably use him more often than snikrot (think that's his name), just due to storm boys fitting into my army better. Are there any big mech specials? I don't recall seeing any, and I'm going the five defdreads route, so I need both HQ to be mechs.

Silentbob10
16-02-2009, 21:06
honestly you should always make ure own HQ i have a DA army and have never taken belial i just take minamum tactical squads and three term squads anyways u can get round most of the army changing rules charectors provide. Tbh when faced by abadon in a 1000pt army it completely destroys the point of the game to have fun. Although i will say i dont mind it in apocalypse due to the alll round spirit of that game

ethsar46
16-02-2009, 22:00
I went with sometimes, mainly because ive been using my BA lately, and really, your jibbing yourself if you take a standard Chap over Lemates, 5pts for an extra wound is definatly worth it.

Grand Master Raziel
16-02-2009, 22:08
Always.
special characters are not what they used to be. gone are the days when you could use the armory to customize your own unique(and often times better) generic HQ.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. The new Codex: Space Marines allows you to build a pretty kickass Company Captain. The problem there is that there's one build that really stands out over all the others: relic blade+storm shield+arty armor. I would definately take him over most of the named characters in Codex: Space Marines, with the possible exception of Shrike (and that's just because I like the Raven Guard).


Now GW has gone a route where you are almost required to use a character to make your army themed or even work right. as a deathwing player we have no choice now. we must take belial, i'd rather have the old rules with any member of the inner circle in terminator armor being able to lead the DW instead of being forced to take a named character(and a pretty weak one as well).

I really don't consider Belial a proper named character. He's really a generic Terminator captain with a name attached to him. Most anything you can do with a generic SM Captain in terminator armor, you can do with Belial. The only thing you can't do is replace his storm bolter with a combi weapon. He's cheaper than the termie-armored SM Captain to boot.

My vote is for "Sometimes" with a leaning towards "Frequently". I didn't used to be a big fan of the special characters, but I play a DA successor chapter, and wanting to mess around with Deathwing and Ravenwing obliged me to start using them. I already had Captain in terminator armor converted to wield dual L-claws that I could use as my counts-as-Belial, so all I had to do is come up with a counts-as-Sammael. I wanted something that looked distinctively different from the Sammael model, however, so after letting the idea simmer in the back of my head for a while, I finally came up with this guy:

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/Grand_Master_Raziel/Jan%2016%2009/DSC00624.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/Grand_Master_Raziel/Jan%2016%2009/DSC00621.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii130/Grand_Master_Raziel/Jan%2016%2009/DSC00622.jpg

What I've found is that having come up with the conversion, I feel like I have considerably more ownership of the character than I would have had I just bought the Sammael figure and painted him in my chapter's colors. He's currently my favorite HQ choice.

That said, I'm not crazy about having to take named characters to "unlock" certain abilities - specifically, the need to take them to get chapter-specific abilities such as in Codex: Space Marines. I think Chapter Tactics is a much better way of balancing out Ultramarines vs other first-founding chapters. Someone playing one of the other FF chapters (or one of their successors) could simply be required to take that chapter's Chapter Tactics to replace the default (aka Ultramarines) Chapter Tactics. As long as the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics are as good as or better than the other chapters' Chapter Tactics, then balance is maintained between the main list and variants (which was an issue with the Traits system). That, however, is a discussion for a different thread.

vladsimpaler
16-02-2009, 22:24
Never have used one, and I hope that I never have to.

Eryx_UK
16-02-2009, 22:34
I always field at least one, though it is usually one HQ SC and maybe Telion if I am fielding scout marines.

sneb
16-02-2009, 22:48
The only SC I use on a regular basis is Belial, but that's because I need him to field my pure Deathwing.

Other than that I never use them in 40k, although I'll use Kantor if I ever get my Crimson Fists up and running.


You could always use Kantor's rules in a DA army, im sure theres plenty of Power fist and storm bolter wielding leaders out there not to mention it'll save you alot of cash on blue and crimson paint:P

Grimtuff
17-02-2009, 00:04
Wow, so much hate in this thread. Why can't people just get over the fact that SC's are just another army list entry? Why should I feel bad because you're looking down your nose at me for using a SC?

Maybe it's through going off and playing Warmachine for a bit (which only has predetermined Characters) but I see nothing wrong with taking SC, new or old. They add character to armies and can be appropriate to themes as many of them (newer ones especially) are simply character archetypes that help with an army's theme and playstyle.

Just like Warmachine funnily enough.

I'm going to keep using SC consistently in my armies thankyou very much whether snobbish elitism happens or not. Which, TBH has never happened IRL to me when playing so SC may be a huge bunch of Internet hyperbole, which I would find frankly, unsurprising.

Rant over.

As for which SC I use.

In my Daemons I use Skarbrand, Ku'Gath, Skulltaker and Epidemius in just about all my list builds

Snikrot and Zogwort find their way into my Orks on a regular basis.

My Necron army is called "The grand army of the Jackal God" and is modelled to fit (with Lords made from the Anubis Ushabti) So are you going to put me down for using Deceiver sometimes?

My SW when playing larger games use Logan Grimnar.

Nothing wrong with it at all.

Evil-Termite
17-02-2009, 00:12
In my marine army, I'm ALWAYS taking Vulkan He'Stan. I like the conversion I did for him, I like my army full of meltas and flamers, and my army plays much better with him in there.

In my CSM army, I use a special character every once in a while.

In my Tau army, I'm going to be trying out Farsight as soon as I get him all painted up.

And in my Eldar army, I have yet to use a special character.


So... I said sometimes (often) since I do play my marines quite often.

Refyougee
17-02-2009, 00:17
Pretty much every Eldar army I make has either Eldrad, Yriel or the Avatar. They're just waaaaay too good for me not to take them.

I've never used one in my DH force, but it's pretty obvious as to why.

Grimtuff
17-02-2009, 00:20
I've never used one in my DH force, but it's pretty obvious as to why.

No it's not as we're not mind readers.

Performance wise Coteaz is one of the hardest characters out there when you add in his retinue.

Do they not fit your theme or something?

tacoo
17-02-2009, 00:22
i play daemons, so fateweaver is used most of the time.

Angelwing
17-02-2009, 00:27
I use SC's now and again in larger games.
I don't understand the reasoning behind some of the very negative posts made here. I don't like the implied looking down on and sounding off to your opponent because they have selected a special character. In a tourney setting you have no complaint as long as the army list is legal. In a friendly setting, well its friendly right? Just enjoy the drinks, snacks and rolling of the dice. If you dislike special characters, make it a personal mission to try and eliminate them during the game. Just don't suggest what they are doing is somehow wrong. If your fun and enjoyment are effected, then simply find another opponent. GW games work best when both players have the same idea of what constitutes a fun game.

perplexiti
17-02-2009, 00:27
Agreed Angelwing.

Well I've never used one for my Guard or Tau, but thats mostly because I don't really like the rules for them that much though I wouldn;t mind feilding the old man (I normally run him as a normal commissar).

I run Ragnar with my Wolves occasionally, it's fun having Wolf Guard or Grey Hunters with +2 attacks on the charge, and if I had Logan Grimnar I'd use him sometimes as well. Nothing beats killing my friends Azreal on the charge...:P

victorpofa
17-02-2009, 00:33
Some of my themed armies use special characters and a few are just cool (Snikrot and Zagstruk).

I have not had a chance to play a game with one yet as my club died. They had a very draconian view on Spacial Characters that said if that character dies in a game they can never be used at the club again. :confused:

They also stopped following developments in 40K for WoW crack before the shift in how spacial characters are treated. Probably a holdover from "Opponent's permission" that existed until the Eldar codex.

DhaosAndy
17-02-2009, 01:20
Angelwing: "I don't understand the reasoning behind some of the very negative posts made here."

It's the irritation factor, mainly the strain on suspension of disbelief caused by having the same character on both sides. If you and I both bring the same character irritation would take a lot of the pleasure out of it however good the game. Then there's characters showing up in the wrong army, again irritating.

Born Again
17-02-2009, 03:19
Wow, so much hate in this thread. Why can't people just get over the fact that SC's are just another army list entry? Why should I feel bad because you're looking down your nose at me for using a SC?
Nothing wrong with it at all.


I use SC's now and again in larger games.
I don't understand the reasoning behind some of the very negative posts made here. I don't like the implied looking down on and sounding off to your opponent because they have selected a special character. In a tourney setting you have no complaint as long as the army list is legal. In a friendly setting, well its friendly right? Just enjoy the drinks, snacks and rolling of the dice. If you dislike special characters, make it a personal mission to try and eliminate them during the game. Just don't suggest what they are doing is somehow wrong. If your fun and enjoyment are effected, then simply find another opponent. GW games work best when both players have the same idea of what constitutes a fun game.

I agree. I'm a little surprised at the hate I've brought out by mentioning the topic. Sure, SC's can become overkill if used to much, but I never realized so many people were against using them, ever. Strange. As long as Calgar doesn't pop up in a 1kpt list, I don't have any problems with it. As far as it annoying other players, I agree with Angelwing: just wipe them out! Back in 2nd edition I have fond memories of popping a vortex grenade right on Eldrad Ulthran's head :D


Angelwing: "I don't understand the reasoning behind some of the very negative posts made here."

It's the irritation factor, mainly the strain on suspension of disbelief caused by having the same character on both sides. If you and I both bring the same character irritation would take a lot of the pleasure out of it however good the game. Then there's characters showing up in the wrong army, again irritating.

Sure, it's a bit weird when the same SC pops up in two armies, but unless your playing DW vs DW, how many times has this actually happened? I've never seen it. Even if it did, is it really that much of a hassle? Clearly one is an imposter, and needs to be crushed for his insolence. As far as characters showing up in the 'wrong' army, I'm not sure what you mean, if you mean someone is trying to take Yarrick in a Tyranid army, you have every right to deny them that, unless you have some very odd house rules for allies.

Pooky
17-02-2009, 03:21
I never leave home without Lysander. He may not be the best SM character, but I like his fluff.

Brother Fenix
17-02-2009, 03:29
I only take Belial, if I am doing the Deathwing, which a rarely do. But as a special character, he isn't that special. I prefer to just call him "Master of the Deathwing" and not by a specific name.

Otherwise I never take a special character. I don't hold a grudge or anything against people that do, but I think for people that have been around the hobby for 10+ years, SC's still have an "aura of cheese" surrounding them. When many were several hundred points and were walking gods on the battlefield.

At least they have been toned down to some degree now.

Gen.Steiner
17-02-2009, 06:51
My personal take on it is that I'm happy to see SCs in particular scenarios, or if they're part of the right army (e.g. I can accept that Marneus Calgar and chums would show up in an Ultramarines force during a particularly major battle), but I don't really enjoy fielding them myself.

That said, I am intending to get all the UM SCs just for completeness' sake, although I doubt I'll ever use them as who they are (well, apart from Tigurius and Calgar I suppose) as I personally find it more interesting to field my own character.

For example, my Captain Sixtus of the UM 2nd Company uses the Sicarius model, but not the rules. Captain Androcles of the RF 1st Company uses Belial's rules, but not the model.

See what I'm doing there?

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 07:15
I'm going to go against the general "Love and peace" trend of this thread and say that I hate what GW have done to special characters. I like to see a semblence of game balance and some SC's are "off", simple as that really.

It also leads to irritating people telling you that they have always loved Salamanders and that "Magnus-oh-no-wait, Vulkan" was always their favourite primarch...:eyebrows:

But then again I'm a naive idealist...

mughi3
17-02-2009, 10:51
Wow, so much hate in this thread. Why can't people just get over the fact that SC's are just another army list entry? Why should I feel bad because you're looking down your nose at me for using a SC?


I touched on this a few paged back. it all has to do with past editions.

Special characters were actually special and only saw the table in certain game levels or scenerios and they were incredibly powerful especially in 2nd. This of course lead people down the "cheese" and "power gamer" rant path.

It looks like many players can't get over these past perceptions even though GW has changed the nature of special characters in the game.

If we could all have our armories back and the ability to kit out a unique charcter i don't thinkg we would have such a problem, as it is now the characters are simply to good to pass up or are required to do what you want to do.

genestealer_baldric
17-02-2009, 11:00
unfortauntley my Nids dont get SC, but ive made my own, i have a single red genesteler in my black/grey army called baldric.

Its faster stonger harder than my broodloard in his fluff but in a game hes the same as a normal 'stealer but allways is the last stealer left before getting blown up :(

Vaktathi
17-02-2009, 11:00
Much of the hate has to do with how many of the more recent SC's are far more effective for their points costs than a similarly kitted normal HQ would be, if it were possible to equip them so, and with the recent SM SC's, not only are they incredibly effective CC units, but they also give pretty outstanding army-wide bonuses for a negligable points premium.

I don't have a problem with Abaddon, he's super killy, but *incredibly* expensive, and I never see him used that often. The same goes for Hellbrecht, Kharn, Vect, Nightbringer, all the Tau SC's, etc.

I do have a problem with units like Vulkan that are used in just about half the SM armies I see (I've seen him in Ultra blue as much as in Sally green) that are still pretty killy, with amazing army wide rules, and don't really cost all that much more than a normal HQ. Same with Eldrad, who costs less than a farseer would if he had all the wargear and psychic abilities and has more special stuff on top of that too, and then appears all to often in Eldar armies, especially ones where he really doesn't fit thematically.

When the SC goes from being a *Special* Character, to a generic choice that's a no-brainer for effectiveness and appears in an unusually large quantity of the armies fielded, that's when it starts to annoy people.

Lord Solar Plexus
17-02-2009, 11:14
I don't remember ever using special characters since Stumper Muckstart was lost in the void.

TheOverlord
17-02-2009, 11:29
Nope, I like keeping Special Characters, well, Special :D Not sure when that applies though.

Tarquinn
17-02-2009, 11:33
Depends on my army:

Eldar: Very rarely. Usually only in Apocalypse games. Always Phoenix Lords, never Eldrad, even though I play Ulthwé.
Tau: All the time, as I play Farsight.
Space Marines: Very often I reckon, as I (will) play the Ultramarines 2nd Company, and it kinda lacks a generic Captain. ;)

El_Phen
17-02-2009, 11:37
I've actually only ever used a special character ONCE in a 'Non-special scenario/Apocalypse (which, to be honest, I see as the same thing given the massive nature of those games) and that was two weeks ago when I used a 'couts-as' Pedro Cantor. Others in my gaming group have used everything from Lucius the Eternal to Nightbringer in 'normal' games. I have no problem with this and, more often than not, enjoy the extra spice of two such individuals going toe-to-toe in a Rocky-esque smite-a-thon (usually the first movie in which they knock each other out).

It does get tiresome when Boss Snickrot pops up game after game, or Typhus makes his fortieth excursion this month from the Eye of Terror but I'm generally fine with their presence.

Actually, the hatred directed at 'No-brainer' special characters does make me misty eyed about how they once were. Does anyone remember Abaddon from 2nd edition? Damn he was good then. Logan Grimner too if I recall was rather nasty. Strangely that's one conflict that's never occurred with me, even though my brother used to collect Space Wolves at the same time I was building my chaos Space Marines back then (in 2nd ed.).

marv335
17-02-2009, 11:39
It depends on the army I'm using.
My Crimson Fist army (which I've had since the days of rogue trader) uses Kantor now and again, and sometimes Telion (if I'm using my 10th company list)
My Orks haven't used anyone yet although I'll probably use snikrot when I get around to converting enough kommandos to make a decent sized mob.
Necrons, well I feel C'tan have no place in 40k so I don't even own the models.
Tau, never bothered with any of the SC,
IG, Didn't need them, Guard are disposable and faceless. SC have no place in my army
Catachans, I didn't like either of the SC so they never got fielded

djinn8
17-02-2009, 11:44
I play IG so no special charaters for me, (at least until the new dex), but that simply because they're guard. In an army such as CSM I see the charaters being valid tactical choices due to how dangerous most of them are, and with SM it seems like yo can't build an army without them. Others such as eldar... well there's the Eldrad issue. And Orks are just fun so why not take one or two (turning Abbadon into a squig comes to mind - joy! :)

ash_wednesday
17-02-2009, 11:54
Once in a blue moon I'll use the Last Chancers for IG.

Gen.Steiner
17-02-2009, 11:54
Guard don't need special characters really, but I'd be very happy if they brought Lord Solar Macharius back, and Stumper Muckstart, and Nork Deddog, and Al'Rahem and and and... not that I'd use them, but I'd buy the models! :D

laudarkul
22-02-2009, 08:02
I play IG anbd I never used any of guard character...My army is going well with my Captain von Bittrich at command:D.

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-02-2009, 08:33
Now, I don't have a problem with people using SCs who are required to do so (Deathwing players for example), but using them to boost the power level of your army isn't sporting in my opinion. I'd rather win a game through superior tactics and gameplay, as opposed to shoving Ghazghkull and Snikrot down someones throat.


Do you also object to people taking power fist on there sergeants to boosting the power level of that squad, or is it just special characters that are singled out?


I don't personally bring any, but there are also not any special characters I'd like to bring for my Orks. If there was a special Mek with funky stuff for walkers I'd be very tempted, but as it stands there are none that benefits/mix with my army so it's a bit of a moot point.

I don't really think they make a difference anymore. They are almost without exception not as silly as some of the previous stuff have been and are often no worse to play against than some of the things you can do with a generic HQ.

Vaktathi
22-02-2009, 08:54
Do you also object to people taking power fist on there sergeants to boosting the power level of that squad, or is it just special characters that are singled out? If it cost the same as a normal power weapon with the same number of attacks yes. See below for a better explanation.



I don't really think they make a difference anymore. They are almost without exception not as silly as some of the previous stuff have been and are often no worse to play against than some of the things you can do with a generic HQ.
I disagree, while some aren't very good at all, others, especially with the newer codexes, are at least as effective as the normal chapter masters/force commanders, plus with a bunch of extra army wide benefits, all for (at best) a marginal points increase over the normal version.

Hell, look at Lysander, for *the same cost* as a Chapter Master w/thunderhammer and stormshield, he loses the bombardment, but gains a wound, a better thunderhammer, "bolster defences", Bolter Drill, and makes all units in the army stubborn, and can't be instantly killed.

Or look at Kantor. Take a normal Chapter master and give him a powerfist and storm bolter, add 22pts he gets a better storm bolter, can make Sternguard scoring, makes every unit in the army stubborn, and grants an extra attack to every model within 12". Not bad for 22pts.


That is why you often see the animosity. They are often much more efficient for their cost than the normal equivalent HQ's, and have no restrictions with regards to fluff, removing much of what makes them "special". They are taken with no regards to background (often in contradiction to it) and are taken merely because they are more points efficient than the normal equivalent HQ's.

III
22-02-2009, 09:57
Almost never, as cool as they look painted up I just don't like using them.

wingedserpant
22-02-2009, 11:00
I never use them.

Deadmanwade
24-02-2009, 01:08
I run Crimson Fists with Pedro Kantor every game since I got my new marine dex. He's not the most powerful of the marine options but I love sternguard and the extra attack he gives out is great.
My CF's are mainly scouts with 1 squad of sternguard to fit in with their background and work fairly well against horde armies and 4+ save or worse (tau, guard, eldar) but suck against MEQ.
Using characters allows for more fluffy armies, its just the powergamers with the WAAC armies that give them a bad name. I do think that characters should have some kind of drawback in unit selections. Farsight for the Tau limits what units you can use for example. That would help emphasise the background and reduce complaints.

blackroyal
24-02-2009, 03:01
Not very often. The three I have used are Kantor, Belial, and Sammael. I only used them for the list tweaks they offer. My latest trend has been a biker army lead by a normal captain.

I would personally like to see Shrike, Vulkan, and Eldrad (SP?) removed from the game. They all alter the game in a massive way for low points.

PumaKiller
24-02-2009, 03:43
Never for me except for one case which is with my Ravenwing where quite obviously I have to use Sammael. Still I don't like special characters that much and always prefer to use the generic HQs and make my own story for them.

Kalec
24-02-2009, 04:06
I disagree, while some aren't very good at all, others, especially with the newer codexes, are at least as effective as the normal chapter masters/force commanders, plus with a bunch of extra army wide benefits, all for (at best) a marginal points increase over the normal version.


The regular SM HQ's are overpriced. Terribly so. We spend daemon-prince points for a captain that can barely match a prince in stats, let alone warp time or lash. Librarians end up costing as much as a prince if we give them TA, a storm shield, and up them to an epistolary. If we don't they are frail and weak in combat and limited to one power per turn. Chaplains are the only character that is anywhere close to being appropriately priced, and Cassius sacrifices the mobility that makes chappies effective with assault squads and biker command squads.

When we get a regular HQ that is as good a value as a warboss or daemon prince or farseer, then you can complain about SC's that are too good. The SC's bring our characters up to par, that's it.

Johnnyfrej
24-02-2009, 04:35
Vaktathi completely covers my opinion of Special Characters.

vyper
24-02-2009, 10:05
I only use Special Characters in games of Apocalypse, it seems to be the most appropriate place for them.

Then again, special characters aren't as special as they used to be, so I may start incorporating them into my regular army. I'll have to see what the new IG codex comes up with first though.

Korras
24-02-2009, 10:26
usually, I only use the models, and not the rules. Logan Grimnar, for example. his model is one of the best around. the rules I save for Apocalypse.

Artois
24-02-2009, 11:52
I use them sometimes, especially in Apocalypse.

aekold666
24-02-2009, 13:58
In every game I use Belial, it is hard to play deathwing without him.

Mercer
24-02-2009, 14:22
I used to use special characters all the time but rarely now. I tend to stick with the generic HQ units and take which wargear I want. Most the times I find them costing too much as I'd rather take other units.

I have special character wise: Marneus Calgar, Nightbringer and the Deceiver. I'm also hoping to build my own light conversion Perturabo, Primarch of the Iron Warriors.

tuebor
24-02-2009, 14:47
I use Creed and Kell fairly often as I play the Cadian 8th. I'm well aware that they're a waste of points and easy kill points but I don't care. Hopefully in the new book they'll suck less.

Deathworld Vet
24-02-2009, 15:51
i use SC`s for special scenarios or apoc games as i dont feel they ever fit in small scale games, using your own characters is far more rewarding. May not get you as far but when you make your own its yours and thats what counts

Mr Stu
24-02-2009, 16:10
I always take Belial for my DA games. I don't tend to use special characters in my chaos force unless it is apoc. I go for Kharn and Abaddon. Kharn at the head of 12 Zerkers is truly devastating.

Maxis Lithium
24-02-2009, 16:17
Ghazhakull sometimes comes out for my Orks, and Typhus will ride in the LR with a squad of Plauge marines whenever he get's the chance, but special characters are really changing, game wise. The onld ones I still view as 'optional' as where the new ones really trike me as 'intigrted' into the new lists.

Wolf Sgt Kirke
24-02-2009, 16:30
well i only tend to play apocalypse these days - wheres the fun in anything smaller? so for my tanith i take guant in mid size games, some of the GW PDF rules for other named ghosts and Saint Sabbat (using celestine rules) for huge games - but i name all my troops let alone normal characters so they're all 'special' to me!

For my wolves the special characters only ever come out if i take every single wolf i own - which is quite a lot (40,000 points or so!) they are not really that much better than a well tooled wolf lord anyway - but that is as it should be!

I have to say i fail to understand the animosity towards them though - i mean after all you have to pay points for them like anything else - i can think of some units that worry me more (Bloodletters, Vanguard, Deathguard).

Bellygrub
24-02-2009, 17:38
I've used Boss Snikrot. That's it so far. I don't really have plans of using anyone else.

elf_hater_7
24-02-2009, 17:43
I use IG, so im not allowed any characters below 1,500 pts or so (and im not allowed to use Yarrick below 2,000 pts, which i don't play much). even when i am allowed them, i still won't use them because a) i don't own the models for the characters, and
b) because i always have to take a command platoon as 1 of my HQ choices, and im going to be spending points on them and the tanks in my army. seeing as i have to have infantry platoons as well (as i don't own a chimera either, so armoured fist is out of the question) i run out of points for characters. plus, the IG characters aren't really all that great...

Cuda
24-02-2009, 18:57
I use Kharne but only as my Chaos Lord, not as Kharne. Luv the model. Abaddon sits on my shelf in a glass case. Special Characters usually means that I have to do without another unit that I like better.

Cuda...

Getifa Ubazza
24-02-2009, 19:57
Ive never used a special character in the whole 15 years ive been playing. That doesnt mean i never would. If the theme of my list called for one. I may do Belial, so i can do a DW army at some point.

studderigdave
24-02-2009, 20:58
Orks - Ghazzie alot, ol zogowrt sometimes.

Deathguard - Typhus ALWAYS

Deffwing - Belial (Req'd)

if they gace the orks nazdreg back i wouldnt have to use ghazzie's rules to represent him. if they let deathguard lords have FnP i would run typhus alot less

[SD] Bob Plisskin
24-02-2009, 22:59
I voted never but that's not because I have a problem with special characters and I would field one if it was cost effective and themed to my army.

Problem is I have a lot of jetbikes which are expensive and vypers so have to keep HQs quite cheap. I have toyed with the idea of running Asuryman but the points cost is just way to high when I consider what I could get for that. Maybe if I get enough models one day to start playing apoc then I'd use him. I'd actually love to run a "Dire Avenger" wing which Asuryman would be cool in. If I got them all in waveserpents I could have them used alongside my existing list in apocalypse or run an effective all DA list on its own.

But yea back to the discussion. Personally I have no problem with them just dont field them because in Eldar I think they are overcosted for what they do and there is so much good stuff in the eldar codex that it's all fighting for position so the easiest thing to do is drop down the cost of the HQ as its one model.