PDA

View Full Version : Cryogenics in transports?



malika
05-12-2005, 19:37
This is something Im curious about at the moment, Im curious how the Imperial Guard are transported. Yes I know they have their transport ships which are part of the Imperial Navy, but long distances have to be travelled which can sometimes take weeks, months, years or even decades. The Guardsmen would by that time have aged too much or grown too tired to fight...right? So would there be like cryotubes (similar to the ones in the Alien movies) and stuff like that for the thousands of Guardsmen who are being transported?

Melchor
05-12-2005, 19:44
I think when the journey takes years, something went wrong...

Usually the Imperium will send forces within a couple of weeks from the warzone at most, maybe months if desperate.

And if it takes too long... Who cares for a couple of thousand soldiers in the Imperium? Plenty more where they came from. :evilgrin:

bertcom1
05-12-2005, 19:51
Travel time in the Warp is weird.

I seem to recall, that to travese the Imperium would only take 2-3 years shiptime, but a great deal longer realtime depending on circumstances.

Plus, most regiments arent really moved across the entire Imperium, most seem to be moved between star systems in the same sectors.

So travel time in the transport ships is not that long (shiptime), for the troops, meaning that they will arrive in battle ready condition, although not necessarily in time for the war that they were recruited for.

So I dont think there are cryotubes as standard equipment on Imperial Guard Transport ships. Inquisitors personal vessels may have them though.

Kage2020
05-12-2005, 19:56
Cryogenic suspension tubes are one of those things that seems to be weasling in to the 40k universe from other sci-fi universes, though not inappropriately so. Previously something akin to a stasis field would have been utilised.

Personally I'm with Melchor. You don't want your lines of communication to be so long that it is going to take years of 'matterium-time' to get to a warzone, with all the problems that are implied with travelling in the deep warp, etc.

Kage

malika
05-12-2005, 19:57
Ships would travel weeks, something even months then. (dont tell me it just takes a mere few weeks to travel from Cadia to Armageddon:eek: ) This would mean that the troopers aboard the transports need to be "trained and entertained" right? It wouldnt be very smart to just lock them up in their quarters until they get to the target. Could this then be sort of similar to what we see in the Starship Troopers movie that there might even be shops and bars aboard these transportships?

NakedFisherman
05-12-2005, 20:04
Entertainment on transports? Ha, yeah right. The only 'entertainment' is waking up alive in the morning. In the deep warp space weird stuff happens to the crews of vessels. Men new to the traveling often go mad and sometimes worse.

It's work and sleep with rotating shifts. The crew and soldiers swap stories back and forth during their work.

Where do you get the idea that men need to be entertained on ships? They need to be fed and rested, that's it.

Sojourner
05-12-2005, 20:04
Many Imperial Guard foundings complete their training on board ship. Regiments raised in an emergency will be a couple of weeks squarebashing until the Navy arrives, then bundled onto transports and trained in actual soldiery onboard.

malika
05-12-2005, 20:08
Entertainment on transports? Ha, yeah right. The only 'entertainment' is waking up alive in the morning. In the deep warp space weird stuff happens to the crews of vessels. Men new to the traveling often go mad and sometimes worse.

It's work and sleep with rotating shifts. The crew and soldiers swap stories back and forth during their work.

Where do you get the idea that men need to be entertained on ships? They need to be fed and rested, that's it.

Well not entertained in an extreme of like a cruise ship, but after the constant training there would be some form of relaxation...right? Look at our military, the US in Vietnam eventually went for the prostitutes and drugs (for those who will start a debate on this..just pretend its true). Aboard the Dutch navy you get to barbeque and play computergames...
wouldnt there be some sort of black market like trade of liquor, drugs and prostitutes aboard the transports? If not on the transports...then hopefully at the ports.

NakedFisherman
05-12-2005, 20:13
Well not entertained in an extreme of like a cruise ship, but after the constant training there would be some form of relaxation...right? Look at our military, the US in Vietnam eventually went for the prostitutes and drugs (for those who will start a debate on this..just pretend its true). Aboard the Dutch navy you get to barbeque and play computergames...
wouldnt there be some sort of black market like trade of liquor, drugs and prostitutes aboard the transports? If not on the transports...then hopefully at the ports.

The relaxation is going to sleep and possibly telling stories or playing simple games in your quarters.

In terms of ports, or course you're going to see some trading of simple goods like cigars. Prositution is likely as well (although it depends on the port I'm sure).

Food is whatever is rationed out. I'm sure some people buy and sell their rations as well.

Puffin Magician
05-12-2005, 20:15
While GW steals quite a lot of scifi clichés when making up fluff, it's an imaginative scapegoat to say "it happens in other scifi so it's reasonable to assume the Imperium/Eldar/Tau do it too". This is 40k. It should be gritty. The Guardsmen should be miserable. It should be difficult, and arduous, and time-consuming, and lo-tech.


It wouldnt be very smart to just lock them up in their quarters until they get to the target... there might even be shops and bars...
You're forgetting how sadistically callous the Imperial hierarchy can be. A Regiment of Guardsmen living it up on a pleasure yacht [resturaunts and pubs? get real!] would be insanely expensive and a waste of space aboard the military transport. It's a big, cramped box that's essentially a one-way ticket [what's the average Guardsmen lifespan again?] with nothing to do but work, write the Mrs., and wait. Don't like it? Should've joined the Navy! :p

It doesn't need to be something fancy like cryogenic suspension, maybe they're given a chemical that allows them to hibernate and sleep the whole journey off. Hey, it works for airline travel.

Edit - Dammit, 4 people posted while I was writing my reply. In response to them:


Look at our military, the US in Vietnam eventually went for the prostitutes and drugs (for those who will start a debate on this..just pretend its true).
"Pretend"? :D You can't really compare being stuck in a transport ship to being in a stalemated conflict for several years whilst being stationed near large populated areas.

Aboard the Dutch navy you get to barbeque and play computergames...
So now I know why my girlfriend joined the Navy... ;)

wouldnt there be some sort of black market like trade of liquor, drugs and prostitutes aboard the transports?
I'm not sure how you'd get prostitutes on and off a military transport, but certainly the 40k equivalents to whiskey, cigarettes and hard drugs will be onboard. There's a huge difference between a promenade deck and a Sergeant's secret flask, however.

Melchor
05-12-2005, 20:21
[...]Aboard the Dutch navy you get to barbeque and play computergames...[...]

Really? At least there is *something* good about our navy... :rolleyes:

Anyway, most 'entertainment' would probably come from musical instruments the guardsmen had brought themselves and from swapping stories like already said.

I do however find it hard to believe that the Imperium doesn't have anything apart from duties to keep the men busy as they are being transfered. They must do something to keep up the morale and stop the soldiers from getting frustrated (other than being bullied around by Commissars).

No idea what kind of entertainment the Imperium would provide aboard transports though, most 'fun' things are considered sinful after all... :D

malika
05-12-2005, 20:22
It doesn't need to be something fancy like cryogenic suspension, maybe they're given a chemical that allows them to hibernate and sleep the whole journey off. Hey, it works for airline travel.
This sounds interesting...especially for longer trips this might come in handy...the chemicals need to have some nasty side effects like nausia and head aches...like a really really really bad hang over:evilgrin:

However if they are forced to remain awake...their stay aboard as some sort of training prison like situation sounds interesting. Training and a bit of relaxation later...perhaps the ship's crew or some guardsmen smuggled alcohol, narcotics, naked girl magazines etc...black market economy aboard those ships while life is a hell aboard it...hmm:evilgrin:


Really? At least there is *something* good about our navy...
My friend was in the Navy...he just got payed tons for doing nothing, he was on MSN all day long, or playing computer games...later on getting drunk and high for cheap...most of the marines sniffing...okay I'll stop it...might be a sensitive subject to some :P

Frodo34x
05-12-2005, 21:43
The 2nd Ed Guard codex addresses this point. Usually, guardsmen are only taken from within 10 (or is it 100?) lightyears, which wouldn't take too long in the warp. While in transit, they train.

Khaine's Messenger
05-12-2005, 22:09
The Guardsmen would by that time have aged too much or grown too tired to fight...right?

Since most Guardsmen don't perceive the passage of decades in the course of normal warp travel (and even a long haul trip from one end of the galaxy to another is well under a decade), it wouldn't be necessary to do anything other than drill, drill, drill.


So would there be like cryotubes (similar to the ones in the Alien movies) and stuff like that for the thousands of Guardsmen who are being transported?

Think "bunks." Stasis (whether as high tech as Red Dwarf's "quantum stasis" or as barbaric as "flash-freezed and plastic wrapped") is something reserved for things that are too dangerous or fragile to be left constantly aware (eversor assassins, brink-of-death personnel, eg) or old ships with supply chain issues (if you can't feed ten thousand guardsmen, flash-freeze 'em). The only feasible rationale I can think of for cryo is not length-of-time problems, but something akin to the reason human ships in the Halo-'verse have suspension chambers...there are just issues with having most of your personnel conscious when the ship is traversing a Realm of Utter Insanity (conversly, psychics in 40k don't seem to have much escape...eg, the Navigator in the beginning of Harlequin). Alternatively, cryo could be used as punishment, but then the Imperium's punitive measures are...how shall we say...not as esoteric as those of Demolition Man.

In short, you're more likely to run into situations like finding the Botany Bay in the middle of nowhere with active cryo/stasis units (that is, a floating anachronism from pre-Imperial times...although in the case of the Imperium that might sound too complimentary). Otherwise...well, it's not like they'll all die en route.

By the way--black markets are big on Imperial Navy vessels. There's no "probably" about it. There's wenches and "stimms" aplenty. Only the most anal of Captains and Commissars can hope to make a dent in the wretchedness of their men, and more than likely they'll not be well-liked for their troubles. Of course, the smaller the ship, the harder such things may be to get away with....

schoon
05-12-2005, 23:17
From what I've seen, cryogenics for personnel transport isn't really supported by fluff.

Though Ian Watson's early work established stasis chests, they appeared to be somewhat rare (available to the Inquisitions more senior agents). Certainly not common enough for transport of the "regular grunt."

One of the Ciaphas Cain books (and even a Gaunt's Ghosts bit IIRC) also deal with troop transports, and they support the idea that troops are fully awake, bored, and very inclined towards mischief on their voyages - which is why their commanders try to keep them busy training.

C. Langana
05-12-2005, 23:22
Ah the cryogenics chestnut. For my interpretation of 40K it always seemed a bit too 'High Science' (as opposed to 'High fantasy') and far too nicey nice,
On the 'How do you keep 10.000 trained men from getting cabin fever?'
As mentioned there is of course a black market (illicit stills and some oddly proportioned 'Guardsmen') and some regiments have been mentioned as having 'camp followers' so no worries there.
Of course drill is another thing, you can't get bored if your too tired to think, so three months of running on the spot ought to do it.
I really do think it would be like living aboard a contemporary carrier, with more praying.
I mean Marines of the 18th-19th century staid pretty sane right?

Epicenter
06-12-2005, 01:28
There is some fluff I recall, I don't remember where - I think it was on the background for Armageddon - that IG regiments are raised for specific conflicts. They're contributed to from planets surrounding the crisis point in a certain radius, like X number of light years. If the conflict continues and they run out of Guardsmen, they increase that radius again to include further worlds, and so on and so on until a generation or two has passed on the closest worlds and the Adeptus Terra can once more call regiments from the closest worlds.

It's "earlier" fluff, so I don't know how much that is followed anymore.

El_Machinae
06-12-2005, 02:11
Using cryogenics is still viable for fluff, in that the technology could exist in 40k. It would have to be a 'wealthier' ship, and less run down, for sure. But still, it would work in a story.

I've often thought that cryonics might be a way for humans to leave our solar system. A well-designed system might make our first interstellar journeys actually viable.

notdakuningist
06-12-2005, 04:03
wow, once again the fluff doesn't really support reality. Humans no matter who they are can only take so much adversity before they crack. I'd imagine a hard training schedule, regular inspections, briefings, prayer and about two to three hours of "free time" a day and about six hours of rest would be the norm.
Cryo fields probably aren't used in a mainstream way but that doesn't mean that they aren't used. Look at the planet that had thousands of people in cryo during the first inquisitor eisenhorn book. The technology does exist just not commonly.

Mad_Max
07-12-2005, 14:16
Travel time in the Warp is weird.


So travel time in the transport ships is not that long (shiptime), for the troops, meaning that they will arrive in battle ready condition, although not necessarily in time for the war that they were recruited for.

or before it has started (if i recall it corectly)

Inquisitor Samos
07-12-2005, 15:19
It's worth noting here some of the original background material published by GW concerning travel through the Warp. It was indicated that a normal voyage of 1000 light-years would be perceived by the crew and passengers of a ship as taking somewhere between one and four days; however, in real-space the voyage would be perceived to last from 1 to 6 months.

This would certainly explain why troops can arrive battle-ready from distances of a few thousand light-years away....... they will have only been in transit a few days, perhaps a couple of weeks at most, from their perspective.

Now, then, I'm not saying I particularly care for this extreme level of temporal relativity distortion...... it presents all manner of issues, especially if one is trying to use it in an ongoing game campaign setting...... but that's what was published on the subject.

koni
09-12-2005, 11:27
wah?!
have you all forgotten execution hour or shadow point? (i know, they arent canon, but still...)

Enlightened Bystander
09-12-2005, 16:06
Probably the best example is American Transports in the first and second world wars, or something similar.

Now as to what happenend on them, I'm not sure, but that's the most likely image of the journey times and trrop density.

In my interpretations of the Imperium, I'd say that Cyro was unlikely for a Marine boat, let alone the poor Guard.

Inquisitor Maul
09-12-2005, 16:17
wah?!
have you all forgotten execution hour or shadow point? (i know, they arent canon, but still...)

Actualy, Leotan Semper and the Macharius gets mentioned in the Eye of Terror Codex so I would call them official fluff

Brother Smith
09-12-2005, 20:00
By the way--black markets are big on Imperial Navy vessels. There's no "probably" about it. There's wenches and "stimms" aplenty. Only the most anal of Captains and Commissars can hope to make a dent in the wretchedness of their men, and more than likely they'll not be well-liked for their troubles. Of course, the smaller the ship, the harder such things may be to get away with....

I imagine that black markets like this exist only on big ships with low numbers of officers.

If you have a commisar-like officer for every 50-100 men on a ship, you won't have a problem stamping out any illegial activity.

malika
10-12-2005, 00:05
But is there a commissar for every 50 to 100 guardsmen? I really doubt that...the commissars would check the main officer more intensly than the mere guardsmen.