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View Full Version : Dark Elves elite infantry, Black Guard, or Executioners?



Neckutter
16-02-2009, 21:33
i mainly play DE for their new models, but playing the same armylist is getting boring. i want to change it up, but i dont know which unit to get. i love the DE army, and wanted to know from the general community what you Dark Elf players like to field and what you guys like to play with.

for the non dark elf players, maybe they could say what they have found to be the scariest of the two units they would have to face would be.

note that i dont want both units, i just want one specific unit of rock-hard elites.
thanks for the help on the decision, guys! :)

W0lf
16-02-2009, 21:37
Black guard are so much better then executioners its silly.

Exs would be questionable at 10 pts whilst Black guard would be fine at 16 pts.

No contest.

Neckutter
16-02-2009, 21:55
yeah, but executioners look neat. :)
plus ive read some armylist posts and some DE players swear by Execs.

chivalrous
16-02-2009, 21:59
By prowess and economy on the tabletop, Blackguard win hands down.
However for background and models I prefer Executioners.

-Grimgorironhide-
16-02-2009, 22:04
Though BG seem overall better you have to remember that they both have different roles.

This is how I use my executioneers.

I like use them in a 7x2 formation. They are very useful as my flankers since they can absoulutely murder units in the side. Another way i use them is with the cauldron (I need it for this) to play as my can openers. I first tie up the unit with some harpies so I can get the charge. I go for the front since I will lose alot of my attacks if attacking the heavy cavs flank.

The unit is 14 strong with a champion, musician and the murder banner.
On average I will get on say a chaos knight unit 9-10 hits, 7-8 wounds at a -4 save which will usually equal 4-5 dead knights. (And this isn't counting any KB's i get)

I think that though they are viewed similar to BG and in that case inferior IMO they should be used as a supporting unit or small unit killer, (i.e flanking, can openers) not an all comer role like the BG.

cheers.

Neckutter
16-02-2009, 22:08
well that is something to think about grimgor.

i was planning on using a block of standard 20 dudes, full comm, with the banner of ASF. they were going to be the "anchor" of my army.

Max_Killfactor
16-02-2009, 22:20
well that is something to think about grimgor.

i was planning on using a block of standard 20 dudes, full comm, with the banner of ASF. they were going to be the "anchor" of my army.

Executioners would need a BsB to get the ASF banner. The only BsB they can take is the witch elf one.

Remember, executioners are 'khainite' so the only characters that can join them are Assassins and Hags.

Neckutter
16-02-2009, 22:22
wow, i didnt even see that they couldnt have a magic banner.
well that makes my choice for me i guess! :)

W0lf
16-02-2009, 22:31
All executioners needed was for nobles/dreadlords to be khanite aswell.

Who would pass up thos models when 7 wide with noble, GW, BSB, ASF pumps out 10 S6 attacks.

Draconian77
16-02-2009, 22:38
Black Guard, no contest.

They may have different roles on the tabletop but Executioners are rarely able to accomplish their role.

One of my biggest gripes with the book is how bad Executioners are, if the internal balance of a book is off then many armies are going to be similar in design.

Neckutter
16-02-2009, 22:39
Who would pass up thos models when 7 wide with noble, GW, BSB, ASF pumps out 10 S6 attacks.
with hatred...
that would mean 3-5 dead knights that charged them

Max_Killfactor
16-02-2009, 23:04
wow, i didnt even see that they couldnt have a magic banner.
well that makes my choice for me i guess! :)

Well, they can... but it's a 25 point limit :(


All executioners needed was for nobles/dreadlords to be khanite aswell.

I agree, 35 point banner limit would help too though.

But yeah, black guard are much better overall.

zak
16-02-2009, 23:35
The Black Guard are some of the best elite infantry you can buy. For 13 points they are excellent. They are fragile, but extremely difficult to break if they have the ASF banner (which I have found is almost obligatory). Executioners aren't bad, especially if a cauldron is about for that extra attack and stubborn, but they just can't touch black guard.

lparigi34
16-02-2009, 23:50
Well, the voting and Zak said it all... Just take BG and trow in the ASF banner...

I play against DE, an that unit have changed the tide of the battle more than once.

i.e. my last game, managed to play GREAT with my TKs, outmaneuvered the DE thanks to my magic and was in a very advantageous tactical position... Black Guard was charged in the front by 25 skeletons and on the flank by Ushabti. In magic phase Ushabti did one attack each, killing one of the pesky guards.

1st round of combat, TKs won the CR, but stubborn guys remained in place.

2nd round of combat, BG wiped out all TKs, first in HtH and finally by CR...

Not nice for me... Black Guard is a GREAT unit.

Gork or Possibly Mork
17-02-2009, 00:13
I voted for BG as well. Not that Executioners are bad. Hell with a cauldron they're down right scary in MSU but if your looking to have just one elite unit Black guard are it and they even have a rule to support it "Warrior Elite" along with all the other goodies they have or can get they are one the best in the game.

selone
17-02-2009, 00:20
Get executioners if you want to be unique.

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 00:29
I voted for BG as well. Not that Executioners are bad.

...They are though. They are not worth what you pay for them. They are meant to crack armour, infantry are not notorious for mincing cavalry. Not to mention the other options in the book for killing Knights. They just don't hvae much of a role to play. With the Cauldren they are quite good but Black Guard are "still" probably better. (Or at least you get twice as many and don't use up a hero slot, or BG + Killing Blow are more effective than Executioners with Killing Blow(More attacks + they hit more...)

Dragonreaver
17-02-2009, 00:49
If you're interested in which unit is better on the tabletop, Black Guard. (Yes, I did just say that).

HOWEVER, doing my bit as semi-official Warseer Executioner Fanboy, just look at those models! Best infantry models in the entire game. Don't you just WANT to paint them? And then there's Tullaris. Tullaris is awesome. What did Kouran ever do? :p

Gork or Possibly Mork
17-02-2009, 01:28
...They are though. They are not worth what you pay for them. They are meant to crack armour, infantry are not notorious for mincing cavalry. Not to mention the other options in the book for killing Knights. They just don't hvae much of a role to play. With the Cauldren they are quite good but Black Guard are "still" probably better. (Or at least you get twice as many and don't use up a hero slot, or BG + Killing Blow are more effective than Executioners with Killing Blow(More attacks + they hit more...)

That's a fair point but BG are ITP no? They can't flee a charge. I still agree though BG are a much better choice with Stubborn most of the time they don't need to flee.

Bac5665
17-02-2009, 01:37
BG are the best elite infantry on the game. They are 3 points apiece too cheap, and, like chaos knights, they invalidate all other special choices simply by existing. Execs may be cool in fluff, but once again, they are useless.

decker_cky
17-02-2009, 01:42
If you have a cauldron, executioners are pretty close to being as good as black guard. They're used differently though.

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 01:46
I don't think its fair to say that Execs are 3pts too cheap. This number crops up a lot and really its utter trollop. BG are good because of the rest of the DE list, not the other way round.

Secondly, whilst you can claim BG invalidate the other elite infantry, you could also claim that the other infantry are too weak to compete. Witch Elves are great at killing light infantry, but what isn't? Frenzy is also undesirable and added to that a 25pt magic banner(Warbanner? I don't have the book in front of me but would'nt the Cold One Banner be the only legal choice from the DE list of banners? If so thats bad design right there.)

The Executioners as stated are just bad for their points and bad at their given role.

If either of these two units where better then you would see less BG.
Its not *just* because BG are better, its also to do with the other choices being *worse*.

Aralon
17-02-2009, 02:43
I didn't know that 8 hatred attacks with s6 and armor piercing plus 6-8 attacks from the hag with manbane was bad.... And then you can buff them with the cauldron but frankly they usually don't need it unless you want to have your opponent crying because of what happened to whatever poor unit got hit by the executioners.

Black guard are great but they do not have the killing potential of Exec. Ya warrior elite is great but 9 times out of 10 whatever the executioners hit is gone.

It probably comes down to play style, if you want a really good stubborn unit go with the bg if you want to go rip the throat out of your opponents army take the Exec.

Max_Killfactor
17-02-2009, 03:06
Black guard are great but they do not have the killing potential of Exec (when backed by a hag in the unit and a nearby cauldron of blood). Ya warrior elite is great but 9 times out of 10 whatever the executioners hit is gone.


I fixed that for you, the red text is mine.

-Grimgorironhide-
17-02-2009, 03:06
I use executioneer's and they work quite well if used right.
The reason BG are superior is not because executioneers are bad, its that they are around 2pts underpriced IMO and can easily get the ASF banner. Now think if they only had a 25pt banner limit.

I'd say that BG are more for the less experienced since they are quite forgiving.
Executioneers are for the experienced people who can utillise them to their full effect.

Executioneers are not bad. I'll compare them to swordmasters.
Exe/SM
M 5/5
Ws 5/6 (Hatred makes up for that)
Bs doesn't mater
S 6/5
T 3/3
W 1/1
I 5/5
A 1/2
Ld 8/8
Sv 5+/5+

Exe rules: KB, Eternal hatred, Khainite.
SM rules: ASF, Valour of the ages.
Points: 12/15
Now I know that the SM would win because of their ASF but you would not charge executioneers into them. This is just a stat/rule comparison.

cheers.

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 04:06
But you half to ask yourself a lot of questions about Executioners.

For example, if those Swordmasters where charged by *Knights* then they would inflict some damage. Against Knights with a 2+ save or little hitting power(1 A, low Ws, S3 Horses, etc) they may actually win. If the Executioners where charged they would simple lose, break and be run down. (Assuming no other factors.)

Now, assuming that the Executioners charge *Knights* (Their role is to crack armour after all) you can expect a nice win. However, without the benefit of Lances/Spears and with less attacks due to casualties I would argue that BG or even Spearmen could beat a cavalry unit if they pulled off the charge.

In terms of synergy Swordmasters can carry the +D3 power Dice Banner whereas the Executioners bring nothing else to the table.

Which leads me back to what do Executioners bring that other units don't?

As an aside, the thought that you need to be an experienced player to play with Executioners is farcical, it's like the perceived notion that all Eldar players in 40k are somehow super skilled, they aren't. I will admit that an experienced general will get more out of Executioners than inexperienced general but that is more or less common sense and applies to everything in the army book.

Lord Dan
17-02-2009, 05:21
Executioner models slightly converted to represent black guard rules.

Problem solved.

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 06:16
Thats one of the main reasons I don't like them as they are, lovely models should see play more! *Generic grumbling...*

Lord Dan
17-02-2009, 06:18
I completely agree. In fact I converted my BG from Pheonix guard (no easy task!) simply because I loved the models so much.

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 06:21
Well, I'm actually very pleased with the Black Guard models and even more so because GW decided not to *touch them.

Just wondering if you painted those converted Phoenix Guard in "mainly black", my friend was thinking about painting them in darker tones and I think that they would look great painted like this. Although truth be told I'm not a fan of GW colour scheme for the High Elves anyway, so anything would be an improvement in my eyes.

* = Defile

Urgat
17-02-2009, 06:47
Why do everybody vote BG like that, as if it were a universal truth?
If you're fighting, say, dwarfs, which would you prefer? I'd go with executioners.
Therefore I'm not voting, since I don't believe either is better.

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 06:59
Well, the cynical side of me says if your going against Dwarves who cares? I'm just going to take out your shooting units with a horde of flyers and then spend the rest of the game breathing on you with my Hydra...

In all honesty, from my experiences Black Guard are even more useful against Dwarves.

Besides, quite a few people have voted for the Executioners, I'm not sure why they are doing it but 20% is a solid enough figure. The thing that would suggest 1 in 5 armies(Dark Elf armies...) use Executioners and from what I have seen to date that's just not true...

sulla
17-02-2009, 07:00
Why do everybody vote BG like that, as if it were a universal truth?
If you're fighting, say, dwarfs, which would you prefer? I'd go with executioners.
Therefore I'm not voting, since I don't believe either is better.

Because they are stubborn, can take a decent magic banner, the hero can carry a magic item and they can be joined by any DE character... In other words, it's not the unit (executioners) that is bad, it's the unit's limitations.

If Exies had a 50pt banner allowance (which would unlock ASF or fear causing) and masters could pay to join them, they would be right up there with BG as a viable line unit. As is, they are relegated to support.

derv
17-02-2009, 09:45
With the Cauldron of Blood the Executioners aren't too bad at all, giving them stubborn and +1 attack. What's not to like? Rank them up 7x2 and go have some fun!

Without the Cauldron though, it's Black Guard every time as they perform so much better.

If you really can't decide then just have a look at the Executioner Champion model. It's bloody gorgeous and may sway your decision!!!

O&G'sRule
17-02-2009, 12:53
I use both. They give the opponent a tactical headache as they don't really want their elite unit being held up by the unbreakable black guard that also hits back effectively, but also all those S6 killing blow attacks aren't exactly appealing either. But you do need an assassin in the executioners because of their double handed slowness. Whoever designed where the sword connects to the model on the executioners though is a total *****. I use 15, and on average when I arrive 3 still have swords attached every game

The SkaerKrow
17-02-2009, 13:06
BG are the best elite infantry on the game. They are 3 points apiece too cheap, and, like chaos knights, they invalidate all other special choices simply by existing. Execs may be cool in fluff, but once again, they are useless.Bac, you're out of your mind. They're Toughness 3 with a 5+ Armor save. The only army that can't deal with Black Guard rather easily at this point are Vampire Counts (and even that assumes that the BG unit has a Ring of Hotek), and nuts to them for actually getting the wrong end of a match-up for a change.

Black Guard don't "invalidate" any Special choices in the Dark Elf army. Executioners invalidate themselves by being a terrible unit. Meanwhile, Shades, Cold One Knights and Cold One Chariots see plenty of play. Witch Elves would see more of they weren't such a pain in the ass to paint.

Could Black Guard stand to be a point more expensive? Perhaps, but they're much closer to a 13ppm unit than they are a 16ppm unit.

Dragonreaver
17-02-2009, 15:08
BG are the best elite infantry on the game.

Bahahahaha. That's so far from being true, it's not even funny. It goes right through the realm of 'funny' without even stopping for a toilet break, and out the other side.

Even a unit of Ironbreakers, Dwarfs not exactly being a new army, could give Black Guard a run for their points. WS5, S4, T4, 2+ saves in combat...

The only real advantage Black Guard have over other elite infantry is having two attacks each for 13pts. They're still only S4 (so anything that relies on armour still has a decent save), they're still only T3 (so anything that relies on strength is going to have a field day), they only have a 5+ save and 1 wound, so they don't have much survivability compared to other elite units from non-Elven armies...

They're good, sure, there's no denying that. If any of them survive a charge to hit back, they're going to do damage. If they get the charge, the enemy is in trouble. But they're still elves. They still die when caught in a stiff breeze. The basic fact is, they're no tougher when being hit than your basic 8pt Warrior (if he forgoes his spear in combat, the Warrior is actually harder to kill than the Black Guard).

At least Executioners have S6 on their side.

Again, not denying that Black Guard are good, and are better in most situations than Execs. But they're a million trillion miles away from such grand hyperbole as "best elite infantry in the game". Best elite ELVEN infantry in the game is an arguable point, though...

Bac5665
17-02-2009, 15:21
Lizards, WoC, VC, DoC, BoC, OK, Hell, OnG will have fits against BG. Shooting is the only thing that can deal with BG, and very few armies have enough shooting to take out all three blocks of 20 BG that will inevitably be there. Magic is useless because of the ring. Combat is useless because of assassins, stubborn, combat characters that cannot be killed...

And yes, my bad, I meant 2 points more a model. The 3 "Guard" elven units should all be 15 points apiece. And BG would still be the best of the three with all of them at 15 points.

No, by themselves BG aren't that broken, and may not even be undercosted. But given the ridiculous synergy of the DE army and its ability to support the BG so well as to reduce almost all weaknesses makes them really scary and definitely undercosted. At 2 points more a model, Phoenix Guard have 1 less attack, no stubborn, no ItP, but fear and a 4+ ward. I think that trade is about fair, if you forget about the +2 points. Think about it: If you could upgrade BG to PG for +2 points, would you? I wouldn't. The ward is nice, but the 2A, stubborn, ItP is better. Fear on a holding unit is just a poor man's ItP.

loveless
17-02-2009, 15:23
Executioners are the superior models.
Black Guard are the superior unit.

You'll get more use out of the Black Guard, but you'd probably have more fun painting the Executioners.

I voted Black Guard.

Dragonreaver
17-02-2009, 15:29
all three blocks of 20 BG that will inevitably be there.

Inevitably? Where do you play? Because I've *never* seen 3x20 BG units in a DE army. It's this kind of post that annoys me intensely, using words like 'inevitably' to mean "sometimes, in WAAC tournament lists with zero comp score".

I've just trawled through the first few pages of Dark Elf army lists both here and at Druchii, and ZERO of them took more than one Black Guard unit. Several of them didn't even take ONE. That's just how 'inevitable' it is.

Other little tidbits annoy me too, such as "magic is useless because of the ring". We're talking about Black Guard. Not the Ring of Hotek. A Tower Master with the Ring of Hotek makes your 13pt models into just under 16pt models (assuming there are 18 of them). The ASF banner adds a further 2.7 points per model (again assuming 18 models)...

Personally, I'd really hope my 18.7pt Black Guard model was better than my 12pt Executioner...

And you want an Assassin in your BG now, too? 23.7pts per model then... And that's with no wargear.

Voodoo Boyz
17-02-2009, 15:39
People rarely will take more than 1 unit of Black Guard in a "WAAC No Comp Army", it's just not wise.

Black Guard are obviously point-for-point the best elite Infantry Unit you can take in a Dark Elf army. The fact that you made the poll really just kind of begs the point most people "against" the Black Guard hate so much:

Executioners were a poor choice last book, they're still a poor choice this book, but their models are fantastic and if only but for a few tiny, tiny rules changes they would arguably be better than the BG, or at least competitive with them.

But they're not and most people making a strong army have already written them off as a choice in the army list and just take the BG instead.

Bac5665
17-02-2009, 15:43
I've not played against DE with less than 2 units of BG, except for the one time there were several huge units of shades.

And the ring is very relevant to the discussion of BG. Every DE army WILL have the ring if it has BG. Not taking it is like having NGs without fanatics. Sure, some people will leave the fanatics at home just to surprise people, but you just have to expect them to be there. The ring is the same. If you don't have it, you are either a fool, or explicitly not trying to win (which is fine, but not how my group plays.)

My point is that the answer to BG is "to shoot them." Well, DE have the best anti-magic and anti-shooting in the game. DRs + Shades equals dead archers. Ring equals dead mages. Those things existing make BG better. Enough that they need to be more expensive.

Voodoo Boyz
17-02-2009, 15:47
BG are "best" because they can buy the ASF banner, house the Ring of Hotek, and provide a safe place for a BSB, or just the Ring of Hotek in general.

Taking more than one unit means one of them doesn't ASF, in which case they are far far easier to take down and have many more bad matchups rather than just "Shoot Them".

TheDarkDuke
17-02-2009, 16:36
well black guard are the better unit. but both the units have great models so i use them both. hell i would use the black guard even if they were as crappy as they used to be. don't ignore the strength 6 of the executioners i might add since there isn't a ton of strength 6 in the dark elf book beyond great weapon heros, dragons and charging cold one knights

Urgat
17-02-2009, 18:06
Lizards, WoC, VC, DoC, BoC, OK, Hell, OnG will have fits against BG.

OnG? How so? Elite elf units w/o ASF really are not a problem, they're usually small so they don't cause fear, are T3 and rarely have a good save. And for the same amount of points I field two big units. I'm really not afraid of BG.
On the other hand, I'm much more annoyed by Xbmen, spearmen and the likes. They don't have ASF, they're squig meat.

Voodoo Boyz
17-02-2009, 18:15
That's the issue, most people who take BG have them ASF. That's why in my previous post I mentioned that really competitive people only take one unit.

Other than that you're spot on, if you have something that can take the S4 hits (high armor/toughness) then just about every hit you get on them is a kill since they are just T3/5+ Armor.

The SkaerKrow
17-02-2009, 19:31
I've not played against DE with less than 2 units of BG, except for the one time there were several huge units of shades. That's great. Two out of the three Dark Elf players in our group don't run Black Guard. Sounds like an issue with your group, not with Black Guard.

If you cannot figure out how to kill Toughness 3, 5+ Armor save infantry with Lizardmen, then I don't know what to say. You can beat them in close combat with Saurus. You can shoot them to pieces with Skinks or Razordons. Heck, you can drop rocks on them with Terrodons and stand a decent chance of knocking out a point or two of rank bonus. Even with the Banner of Hag Graef and the Ring of Hotek, these are still effective tactics.

Bac5665
17-02-2009, 19:44
That's great. Two out of the three Dark Elf players in our group don't run Black Guard. Sounds like an issue with your group, not with Black Guard.

If you cannot figure out how to kill Toughness 3, 5+ Armor save infantry with Lizardmen, then I don't know what to say. You can beat them in close combat with Saurus. You can shoot them to pieces with Skinks or Razordons. Heck, you can drop rocks on them with Terrodons and stand a decent chance of knocking out a point or two of rank bonus. Even with the Banner of Hag Graef and the Ring of Hotek, these are still effective tactics.

Same group as you darn well know...:p

Even if its only one unit of BG, its the synergy of the army that makes them ridiculous. No, they are not unbeatable. But you seem to think that anything can can be beaten in theory isn't broken. I've seen you defend the pendant and the Hydra. Just because shooting the BG (while my shooting is therefor ignoring your Hydra :rolleyes:, your shades, your Dark Riders...) can work doesn't mean their not undercosted.

All I'm saying is that they should be 15 points apiece, the same as every other Elven Guard Unit. Thats my entire thesis. Shooting is the only counter to too much of the DE army, and thats a problem, just like it is for Daemons. Think in terms of the entire army, not just the BG on paper. "Shoot them" works exactly as well against Execs. The problem with "shoot them" is that the DE army is one of the best in the game at taking out enemy shooting units. DR and shades are crazy good at that. Because DE can shut down the magic and shooting phases, out move most opponents, its a little disconcerning when they have a unit that can out fight almost any other elite unit, along with the best character support in the game. If you can't see how that adds up to a price increase to bring them in line with the other Elven Guard Units, I can't help you.

FallenAfh
17-02-2009, 20:08
That's the issue, most people who take BG have them ASF. That's why in my previous post I mentioned that really competitive people only take one unit.

Other than that you're spot on, if you have something that can take the S4 hits (high armor/toughness) then just about every hit you get on them is a kill since they are just T3/5+ Armor.

Exactly, stubborn or not, just 8 of my Chosen of Khorne with handweapons/Shields managed to kill a full unit of BG in two phases ,it helps that I rolled +1 to Str too :evilgrin:

Its hard to compare BG and Executioners directly since they perform such different roles.

BG excel at taking on horde-ish units that rely on static resolution, Executioners are best pit off against high armor save elite units.

Neckutter
17-02-2009, 20:17
i gotta go with Bac5665 with this. BG are 'warrior elite', stubborn, Ld9 and ITP for 13 points. sure there are other "elite" infantry like choson who are technically better, but choson are 3-4 points more expensive(if you give them shields). choson are not ITP, dont have LD9, but are extremely resilient.

i think what Bac meant was that point-for-point they are the most elite army in the game. and synergy with the ASF banner, and unit champ taking a magic item also benefit BG a lot.

Storak
17-02-2009, 21:13
OnG? How so? Elite elf units w/o ASF really are not a problem, they're usually small so they don't cause fear, are T3 and rarely have a good save. And for the same amount of points I field two big units. I'm really not afraid of BG.
On the other hand, I'm much more annoyed by Xbmen, spearmen and the likes. They don't have ASF, they're squig meat.

stubborn units are bad for orcs. biggest chance to break anything for orcs is on the first turn (with choppa rule..)

the orcs wont look good, when the BG strikes first: hatred allows them to reroll. all attacks hit, half wound, reduce save. will basically wipe the orcish frontline...

why not field BG full ranks? such a unit could deal with orcs against their flank...

black orcs and black guard. looking at those units makes me sick. sorry.

Bac5665
17-02-2009, 22:27
Neckutter, thats exactly what I was saying.

Its odd...we usually don't agree lately. ;)

Neckutter
17-02-2009, 23:14
Neckutter, thats exactly what I was saying.

Its odd...we usually don't agree lately. ;)

It was bound to happen sooner or later. :)

craskie666
18-02-2009, 00:36
ex's are some of the best models arround special the champion model

Dragonreaver
18-02-2009, 02:37
i think what Bac meant was that point-for-point they are the most elite army in the game.

That's just not true, though. Point-for-point is where they're most definately NOT the best.

As a unit in an army with the extras that the DE book can grant them, they can be devastating. They probably are one of the best choices when taken in context. But my entire argument was that, point-for-point, a Black Guard is not the best. Without the ASF banner or the Ring of Hotek, your standard Black Guard model is an S4, T3 elf that won't run away and has a 5+ armour save.

If they're not charging (which, admittedly, they will be a large portion of the time) they're dead. If they charge a unit of Ironbreakers, for example, all the IB's have to do is roll 12 dice (and even that is assuming that the Black Guard hit every time on a 4+) and avoid 1's or 2's, and the Black Guard have done nothing at all, for all their greatness. Whereas the IB's in return need 4's to hit just like the Black Guard, but unlike the Black Guard need only 3's to wound - which the BG have to roll 6's to save.

Anything that only has a 6+ save against S4, and is only S4 itself, can't really claim to be awesometacular point-for-point, in my book. It's ASF and the ring that make them so awesome, the ability to take a charge and still hit first (considering that things charging you usually have less armour, with the exception of Knights (in which case you're screwed anyway, with your S4)).

Point-for-point they're good, but they're not "omg best unit evar u hav to taek 3!" like everyone is making them out to be.

Now, granted, p4p discussion is rather pointless, as if you DON'T take the ASF banner and the ring you should probably throw yourself on Tullaris' Draich, but it's not my fault we started discussing it on those terms...

Point for point: Decent unit.
In a real game situation: Damn good.
Charged by Knights: Dead anyway, nvm.

Oh, and I'm well aware that Ironbreakers are far from spectacular themselves, I used them as an example purely because there's a unit sat on my desk at the moment... :p

Storak
18-02-2009, 06:02
Charged by Knights: Dead anyway, nvm.

stubborn units are perhaps the best thing you have against normal cav.


Oh, and I'm well aware that Ironbreakers are far from spectacular themselves, I used them as an example purely because there's a unit sat on my desk at the moment... :p

ironbreakers are not an ideal target for the BG. but i took a quick look at numbers, and here is what seems to happen: guard kills 1.25 dwarfs, dwarfs kill 1 elf. BG still win...

the guard will look significantly better against nearly any other unit sitting on your desk at the moment...

ChaosVC
18-02-2009, 06:25
Well it depends on what kind of synergy you are trying to create. I am pretty sure a maxed out Executional is way better than the Black guards with the cauldron near by and a hag asf banner holder. And taking the cauldron for the asf black guards is not useless because you can easily give the +1 attack or other attributes to any unit that needs it at the time. ASF strenght 4 is no way better than asf strength 6 killing blow, especially with the cauldron around.

Lord Dan
18-02-2009, 07:05
stubborn units are perhaps the best thing you have against normal cav.

Second only to ranged weapons.

badgeraddict
18-02-2009, 10:33
I like executioners. I like Assassins. Combine the two and you have a decent unit.

I love Black Guard also, but for some reason I hardly put them into my army. Why? I also love the other special choices, Witch Elves being a personal favourite.

Plus if I win a game without using Black Guard, then fair play to me!

Neckutter
18-02-2009, 10:39
i dont know the cost breakdown, but im supposing ironbreakers are somewhere around 13 points. they do have a huge armor save, but arent ITP. i dont see the offensive power of them at all. sure nothing can hurt them, but they dont dish out the killy, with their one attack at S4, WS5. BG have WS5, S4, 2A always rerolling misses to hit. and if they do lose, they are Ld9, stubborn. they are a unit you can always count on to do what it is supposed to, which in the end, is priceless. :)

Von Wibble
18-02-2009, 10:46
Just to add a couple of points I haven't seen posted above (only skimmed the thread mind)

Executioners can flee charges. In an army built for msu that is a huge advantage.

Death Hag can join executioners and give ASF banner. Unfortunately you also get the side effect of frenzy but its an option. Trouble is of course that black guard don't need a character to babysit them (crimson death on champ gives 4 S6 ASF attacks with reroll to hit - as good as many lord choices).

One poster above mentioned witch elves don't have good options for magic banner - try banner of murder. Put manbane on the hag and suddenly you have a unit that can dent armour. OK not knights as such but certainly 3/4+ save infantry isn't looking quite so smug.

Executioners point for point are better against missile heavy than black guard.

Overall I tend to have a unit of each in my games so didn't vote. I think both units have their uses, and different roles.

The SkaerKrow
18-02-2009, 13:25
Executioners point for point are better against missile heavy than black guard.For one point less per model, you get a unit that dies just as easily as Black Guard, but have the added detriment of being susceptible to Panic. Seriously, how do you justify this point?

Bac, if you're talking about the Slackers then I have no idea who you've been playing. Danielle is the only DE player in the group that runs Black Guard, and I don't know anyone that runs Shades. I run two Chariots, Coke runs a large block of Cold One Knights, and Nate (not that Nate, new Nate) runs a small unit of Cold One Knights. That's...it for Special choices among DE players in the group.

Beyond that, you're saying that if Black Guard have the Banner of Hag Graef and the Ring of Hotek (which is the single most overhyped item in all of Warhammer, trumping even the dreaded Pendant) that they're the best unit of "elite" infantry in Warhammer? Do you realize that you've now jumped the unit up to around 16ppm by making these changes, which is exactly where you claim that they should be? Are you also aware that they still die to a light pattering of arrows, sharp stuff, blowpipes, handgun rounds or any other pointy thing that Warhammer armies have learned to throw at squishy things? And, moreover, are now essentially a 0-1 choice, since you cannot duplicate this configuration on another unit of Black Guard?

Sorry man, but no dice. Saurus Warriors and Chaos Warriors are both practically superior units to Black Guard, and both are Core choices. If you don't consider them "Elite infantry" (which is in and of itself an ambiguous quantifier), I don't see how you can put Black Guard definitively above, say, Swordmasters of Hoeth.

Neckutter
18-02-2009, 13:55
saurus are pretty lackluster. with their low I and WS, they arent really great at all. they are decent, i guess. but they consistantly lose to Blorcs of equal size. or at least, mine do.

and yeah, ring of hotek is junky, imo. whereas the pendant is the absolute BOMB! unkillable DE lord? yes, please.

on a side note, its funny to read all the DE players your little circle of friends. jeez.

Bac5665
18-02-2009, 14:58
@SkaerKrow

Alex was the shade player. He was experimenting with DE for a month or two, a month or two ago. Danielle was the BG player. I will confess I've not played against any other DE. Oh, wait, DavidB has a ridiculous MSU BG army which I played when they first came out. That was a stupid WAAC list if I ever say one.

You keep saying that with the items I'm talking about, BG are 16 ppm. But in every army, every unit has other units that effect how it plays. All units receive buffs in the way your talking about. Part of what makes BG so powerful is that they are surrounded by the best support, in terms of support units, characters, and magic items, in the game. Though I'll grant that its the magic items that make the characters so good. And Assassins.

My point is that the synergy is so much better with BG than with any other elite unit that its worth taking strong notice. Even Flesh hounds aren't broken out of context; its when you have 3 units of them and a BT that they get really scary. Tomb Guard v. Black Guard. Black Guard are better, but its the context of the VC army that makes them stupidly better. Context makes the unit. And I'm saying that the context of a DE army makes BG so good that they need a 2 ppm increase even with the extras they can have. Again, its multiples of BG that are scary (deathstars aside, and there are ways to deal with deathstars anyway,) and in that case, the cost of the ring protects more units for the same cost.

My point is simply that context is something that needs to be reflected in the base cost of the unit. Opportunity is real power in army building, and needs to be reflected accurately. There is a reason people say you can't compare unit costs across armies, and this is it. BG need to be more expensive than they simply because of the support that could be there, because they are so much better with that support that they have an entirely higher power level.

The SkaerKrow
18-02-2009, 17:16
Fair, I was never around for Alex's Dark Elf flirtation. He plays Night Goblins now, because the man has Warhammer MPD. Danielle I did know about. Dave B isn't so much in the group these days.

I'm not so sure that I'd say that Dark Elves have the best general support units in the game. Best Fast Cavalry, absolutely. But that's an issue for another topic I should think.

However, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the points value of Black Guard. What you're saying is that, if Black Guard are played well and supported properly within an army, they're undercosted. That's just...a really strange point to champion.

Oh, and for reference, I'm adding a Black Guard unit to my Dark Elf army. With the Banner of Murder, because the extra point of Armor Piercing is more important, in my eyes, than Always Strike First. Just, y'know, putting that out there :p.

Neckutter
18-02-2009, 18:00
imo, DE have some of the best units in the game;
fast cav: dark riders are amazing.
flying unit: harpies are damn cheap and are core. this helps your core % and they arent half bad. your general needs to babysit them and be withing 12" if they are getting shot though. their Ld is horrible.
crossbowmen: amazing. armor piercing and being able to dish out a TON of S3 hits is great.
knights: Ld9, 2+ AS, Fear, Stupidity is the only thing that makes these guys less than rediculous. and for less than 30 points a model, they are undercosted imo. multiple unit champions can take multiple null talismans? get outta town!
warmachines: its a RBT, what more do you want?
big monster: Hydra; enough said.
elite infantry: a fully decked out black guard unit is a game winner for sure.
cheap core unit: spearmen are so cheap! a healthy block of 20 for less than 150pts?rediculous!