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Dooks Dizzo
17-02-2009, 04:24
Normally I don't write battle reports for pick up games, but I just played the most intense, harrowing, nail bitter of a game down at my local today. The kind that comes up only once in fifty games or so.

We were playing 3000 points, Skaven vs. Druchii.

It was my first time playing Skaven so lots of new stuff in store for me. My opponent was a very good player and a heck of a guy, so lots of fun guaranteed.

Our lists:

Dark Elves
Level 4 Sorceress on Black Dragon (Shadow Lore)
Seal of Ghrond (+1 dispel dice)
Dispel Scroll
Tome of Furion

Dreadlord
Unkillable build, on Cold One w/ Crimson Death

BSB
On Cold One + Hydra Banner

Level 2 (fire lore)
Dispel scroll x 2

Shadowblade!

Crossbows x 10
Crossbows x 10
Spears x 10 (mage bunker)
Dark Riders x 5

Cold One Knights x 8
Always Strikes First Banner
Null Stone, Full Command

Black Guard
Warbanner
Ring of Hotek

Bolt Throwers x 2
Hydra x 1

I knew I couldn't out magic him so I went for more of an anti magic build. I actually like th ebuild on the level 4 sorceress and might keep it.

Skaven List
(As best I remember)

Level 4 on Screaming Bell w/ Fellblade
Level 4 in a block of plague monks
level 2 with Orb of Kill You!
Level 1?
BSB
(as you can see, he was magicked to the max!)

2 x HUGE blocks of Clan Rats (at least 50 strong)
3 x rat swarm bases
2? x blocks of Plague Monks (at least 30 strong)
3 x 10 units of Censor bearers
5 x Globadiers

He's running a Pestilence list pretty obviously. I don't know it quite well enough to be specific but the idea comes across I think.

Deployment
I had a hill on my left flank and set up the massive machinegun bunker of doom there. 20 crossbows and 2 bolt throwers should have been enough to give the rats pause! (it wasn't)

In the center I set my block of Black Guard, I put my BSB and Dreadlord in with them.

On the right I went heavy. The 8 Cold Ones, Dragon and Hydra all deployed on the right flank. He wasn't terribly strong there and I was looking to get in on a flank and steam roll him across the board.

His two huge blocks (including the Bell) went right/center with a unit of Globadeirs holding their flank along side the rat swarms. Most the rest of his army was spread out to my left (machinegun side), the two units of plague monks, 2 units of censors.

Even with the +1 I lost the roll off and he took first turn.

Turn 1, Skaven
He surged forward at a full march with pretty much his whole army. I wasn't really worried because I planned to come to grips with him anyway. (Almost his entire army was frenzied I think).

Turn 1 Magic
This is where I start to get a teeny tiny bit concerned. He busts out something like a million power dice. Maybe it was only 15, but it certainly seemed like more than I could handle.

First spell cast is a Plague Spell on my Black Guard. Hooray for the ring of Hotek! He miscasts and gives me a free spell. I use it to cast Unseen Lurker on my Cold One Knights and surge them forward 14 inches, this brings me into contact with his censor bearers (10+14=24, just enough).

Because it was a friendly game however I reminded him that he could dispel it with a scroll or powerdice. He chose to do so :)

I pulled my guys back and away we went. I stopped another spell and let through a Plague on one of my crossbow units, killing 6 of them and passing their panic check.

Last thing on the list: Skitterleap.

I knew it let a single rat pop up anywhere on the board, but didn't think that to be enough of a threat to burn a scroll on. Then the dirty rat pops up behind my dragon, tosses an Orb and suddenly...no more dragon!

I have to say I was rather heart broken about losing my Dragon turn 1.

Screaming bell effectively did nothing.

Druchii turn 1
Cold One Knights declare the charge they lost out on last turn. Globes pass their fear check, stand and shoot.

Hydra declines to go straight in, moving off to the right to follow the CoK's.

Sorceress now on foot, moves out of charge range of the skitterleap dragon slayer.

Black Guard move up an couple inches, Dark Riders move between two units, march blocking them.

Magic
Power of Darkness on 2 dice for the level 4: Miscast
Roll an 11
Take a wound...become a level 3
Wow.

Other magic dispelled or ineffective.

Shooting
40+ shots go out.
2 rats die.
Wow.

At this point I am getting somewhat disheartened. I try to be a good sport in all events and not let a run of bad luck bring me down but this started to look aweful right out of the gate.

My dragon is toast, my sorceress lost PoD and a level (though the level didn't really hurt), my ranged attackers will never cause enough wounds at this point to slow down that left flank.

(Next turn Skitterleap guy kills both Hydra handlers with a template spell, fail monster reaction and become Stupid on a 6).

Combat
First turn combats are always good. I manage to only lose a single knight to stands and shoot and then proceed to utterly obliterate the Globe guys. The roll a 17 for the over run...taking me well out of the fight.

Perfect!

Skaven Round 2
Shadowblade remains hidden (small favors)
Skitterleap Dragon Slayer frenzy charges the Hydra.

Everyone else moves forward full steam aheah except a unit of Censor Bearers who move 10 inches towards my CoK's.

Magic
Fearing the proximity of the Ring of Hotek, the Screaming bell Seer declines to cast. I stop another plague, and a Warp Lightning, running out of dispel dice.

I then learn that Skaven can cast into combat! Skitterguy uses a template spell and smokes my hydra handlers. (Making hydra stupid)

Bell fails to do anything meaningful.

Combat!
Hydra eats skitterguy. I feel slightly better.

Druchii turn 2
Black Guard charge Screaming bell unit.
Shadowblade pops out on the other 50 strong Clan Rat unit (I did write that down pre-game).

Hydra fails stupidity and trundles into a conveniently placed rat swarm or three.

CoK's wheel and move 9 or so directly at the censor bearers (opponent looks confused)

Dark riders continue to harrass to little effect.

Magic
Fireball fizzles.
Unseen Lurker on CoK's dispelled (opponent looks relieved, realizing the less sneaky part of my plan).

Shooting
Massively unsuprized as 40 something more shots fail to do squat.

MORTAL COMBAT!
Shadowblade murders some rats, loses by a lot, passes stubborn 10 and holds all of them in place.

Hydra kills some rat swarms but not enough.

Then my opponent makes the only real mistake of his game. I know his boss has the Fell Blade (talked about it), but he knows my boss is near immortal and hits hard. I declare a challenge with my unit champ (figuring the Ring did it's job), I want my boss to kill 4 or 5 rats as I need to start pulling their numbers down.

He accecpts with his unit champ! (probably wanted to keep the fellblade for killing BG?)

Now things take a turn for me. With the Hydra banner I got something like 22 attacks and Hatred. I killed about 15 rats, slaughtered his unit champ and had a static combat res of 5 (2 ranks, BSB, Warbanner).

Fell Blade attacks miss.

He lost combat by almost a million.

And then rolls snake eyes and stands firm. ****.

Skaven turn 3
Censors charge my Knights.
Plague monks charge into the flank of my BG fighting the Bell. (Snake eyes? really?)
More censors and another block of Monks charge my two units of crossbows (stand and shoot = no effect)
Last unit of censors charges spearblock w/ mage in it.

Magic
Ring is too close and too dangerous, he casts little and I stop it.

Shooting
Someone, somewhere loves my opponent. (and admittedly he is a cool guy)

Screaming bell makes clan rat unit STUBBORN.

Combat
Crossbows get steam rolled, units overrun into bolt throwers.
Spears get steam rolled, mage dies. I lose a dispel scroll.
Hydra finishes off rat swarms.

And then it happens, the tables turn.

He elects to go with the Censors vs. Cold Ones fight. He's feeling good as I have to take 5 toughness tests, he's frenzied, Strength 5 and has Hatred AND has 8 of them in base contact.

What he doesn't have is the Banner of Hag Graef.

As per the FAQ I take my tests on the Cold Ones toughness 4 and pass all of them! The knights and their Hating Cold Ones then proceed to beat seven shades of **** out of the Censor Bearers. Kill 8 of them, 2 attacks back do zilch.

Overrun slams me directly into the rear end of the clan rat unit Shadowblade is fighting. And as they are locked in combat...I get to attack again!

My opponent elects to move on to the Bell fight. Bunches more rats die, but the Plague monks on the flank manage to kill off 6 black guard, whittling me down a bit.

Challenge with boss, plague monk champ takes it, saving the Grey seer again. I end up losing but my stubborn 9 rolls and eleven...BSB reroll saves it.

Back to Shadowblade and the CoK's. Beat the snot out of the rats again.

They need a 3 to stay.

They roll a 3.

Words fail.

Druchii turn 3
Hydra fails stupidity again. Trundles along, but finally gets close enough to the General to start using his Ld.

Dark Riders charge into the flank of the Bell unit, breaking their ranks. (might have wanted to hit the Plague monks instead but they are harder to hurt.)

Sorceress shows off her legs as she hussles along towards the fighting.

Magic
Yep. Over.

Shooting
All ranged units are dead or about to be, hydra is out of breath weapon range.

Combat!
Bolt Throwers die.

I accidentally fight the Black Guard v. Bell fight first. (and by accidentally I mean I F'd up.) I finally catch the big rat in a challenge with my boss. Score two wounds, save the Fell Blade attacks with inverse ward.

Kill lots and lots more rats. More Black Guard die. Rats lose, save it on their new Stubborn leadership.

CoK's and Shadowblade monster stomp the rats, break them and overrun into the Bell unit. But since we've already fought, no additional fighting happens. Ooops.



Sooper sped up version from here:
Bell Rat dies.
Lots more rats die.
CoK's + Dark Riders + remaining BG actually manage to outnumber. Rats autobreak from the Cold Ones...get run down.

Hydra starts passing stupidity. Joins the game.

I end up catching the rest of his censors and plague monks on the Black Guard anvil. A late game Unseen Luker AND a Steed of Shadows propells the CoK's and Shadowblade into the fight.

He ends up with a single block of plage monks and a level 4 hiding in the furthest corner they could find.

2 Black Guard remain...triumphant!

VP total: I won by 1100 points.
All my Lords and BSB were wounded to hell (toughness tests...), the BG had enough left to deny full points. Shadowblade was untouched. CoK's were actually at full. But even then I only had it by 500 points.

Then I realized that I had captured FIVE banners and the Battle Standard and the units who grabbed them were still on the table!

Of almost 200 rats to start with, 30 remained.

Thank to anyone who managed to read this mini novel.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
17-02-2009, 05:00
SNIP
CoK's + Dark Riders + remaining BG actually manage to outnumber. Rats autobreak from the Cold Ones...get run down.

SNIP

Well done. Nice to see that you did not get discouraged by early 'luck'. The part above confused me a bit though, don't the fear causers by themselves have to outnumber to force an autobreak [ie. just the Cold Ones]?

Dooks Dizzo
17-02-2009, 05:13
I think you are correct, but in this case it would have been a wash. They lost stubborn when the Grey Seer rang the bell again, and he did get his roll for insane courage which he lost. They lost combat by so much that is would have been snake eyes or bust no matter what.

I also think my opponent might be new to skaven himself. He's good at Fantasy but looking over the book, there were one or two things I think he did wrong (and not always in his favor).

For example, does the Bell ring one last time when the Grey Seer dies? This is what caused them to lose stubborn.


Nice to see that you did not get discouraged by early 'luck'It was tough not to just throw up my hands a couple of times, but that would have been totally unfair to my opponent. No matter how bad things were at first it was a fun game and if I'd tossed it in over a run of bad luck, well that would have just been bad sportsmanship.

But seriously, the CoK overrun into the clan rats boosted my moral right back up :)

Counting up the captured banners in the end was just awesome. If my Dreadlord had gone back to Kar Karond after losing to rats...well I think he might have gotten a one way trip to the Alter.

Foegnasher
17-02-2009, 05:16
the guy you fought is a cheating bastard if he only had two clanrat units, two plague monk units and 3 censer units.

that breaks about 3 rules right there. good job thumping his obsecne powergameing list into the felt. guys like that give skaven a bad name, next time you see him tell him Foegnasher says he sucks.

Dooks Dizzo
17-02-2009, 05:36
Yikes.

How does that break the rules? Before we judge too harshly remember I am going off memory. I think he actually had 3 units of plague monks.

But in 3000 points I think he's okay?

Censors = 3 rares
Monks = 3 specials
Swarms = 1 core
Globers = 1 core
2 Clanrats = 2 core
(4 total core)

Though I am not sure how the Bells pushers work?
Oh and I think he messed up the Brass Orb. He just rolled to hit with it, but looking at the book it says it should scatter like a stone thrower. Probably would have saved my Dragon.

Does the Bell die when the Grey Seer does? He pulled it out when my Lord killed his main Rat, but that doesn't seem right. And I can't find anywhere indicating the Bell rings one last time when he dies. And does it give a 3+ armor and a 4+ ward?

Could he be using an old book or something?

The good news is going back over the math I actually won by exactly 1431 :)

Dooks Dizzo
17-02-2009, 05:44
Hahah, I just read the part where the Pestilence list (and such) are not balanced against the main rules. :)

Foegnasher
17-02-2009, 05:49
Yikes.

How does that break the rules? Before we judge too harshly remember I am going off memory. I think he actually had 3 units of plague monks.

But in 3000 points I think he's okay?

Censors = 3 rares
Monks = 3 specials
Swarms = 1 core
Globers = 1 core
2 Clanrats = 2 core
(4 total core)

Though I am not sure how the Bells pushers work?
Oh and I think he messed up the Brass Orb. He just rolled to hit with it, but looking at the book it says it should scatter like a stone thrower. Probably would have saved my Dragon.

Does the Bell die when the Grey Seer does? He pulled it out when my Lord killed his main Rat, but that doesn't seem right. And I can't find anywhere indicating the Bell rings one last time when he dies. And does it give a 3+ armor and a 4+ ward?

Could he be using an old book or something?

The good news is going back over the math I actually won by exactly 1431 :)

if it's a regular skaven list, he has to have 1 unit of clanrats for every oher unit he has, so if he had 3 units of monks, he had to have 3 units of clanrats (includeing the ones pushing the bell)

the bell doesnt die until the unit is broken or you put 6 wounds on it. it's like a chariot. your seer can eat it the first turn and it can keep on ringing away for the rest of the game, likewise, if the unit is broken and the seer survives, then they flee on foot and the bell is destroyed.

the seer has a 5+ armor save on the bell. the bell has a 3+ wd save (not the seer) and yes you have to scatter the brass orb, and you still get an initiative test before getting sucked into the real of chaos and getting destroyed.

i dont think he's useing an old book, i think he's a tool.

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 05:55
That Skaven army was hardly a powerbuild Foegnasher, even if it was breaking a few rules(I'm not too familiar with the mainstay rule).

One thing.

"Shadowblade murders some rats, loses by a lot, passes stubborn 10 and holds all of them in place."

Is Shadowblade Stubborn or am I missing something? I don't have my book to hand but it seems odd that I would have missed something like that! (As a really like Assassins...so an uber-Assassins entry got read over a lot. :angel:)

Dooks Dizzo
17-02-2009, 06:11
"Shadowblade murders some rats, loses by a lot, passes stubborn 10 and holds all of them in place."
Holy crap. I totally muffed that up! I usually run him in conjuction with the Cauldron of Blood which does make him stubborn!

Not sure if it's game breaking though. He killed 4 rats, they had a static of 6 (3 ranks, outnumber, BSB and Standard). So I actually only lost by 2. He's testing on an 8 with a reroll for the BSB within 12".

So more than likely nothing would have changed. Though I feel like an idiot for forgetting that!

If my opponent was a tool, I will certainly make sure to try and make him a better player. Next I see him we'll go over how the Brass Orb actually works and make sure the list is correct with the Clan Pestilence rules.

I am guessing he was using Thanquol as his guy in the Bell. Only way I can figure he got the 4+ ward.

Are the Clan lists tourny legal? Or do they counts as an appendix list?

Foegnasher
17-02-2009, 06:12
That Skaven army was hardly a powerbuild Foegnasher, even if it was breaking a few rules(I'm not too familiar with the mainstay rule).

One thing.

"Shadowblade murders some rats, loses by a lot, passes stubborn 10 and holds all of them in place."

Is Shadowblade Stubborn or am I missing something? I don't have my book to hand but it seems odd that I would have missed something like that! (As a really like Assassins...so an uber-Assassins entry got read over a lot. :angel:)

he has at LEAST 15 magic dice.

and triple censer bearers?

that list is screaming "WAAC" the poor guy just doesnt know how to do it.

Foegnasher
17-02-2009, 06:16
Holy crap. I totally muffed that up! I usually run him in conjuction with the Cauldron of Blood which does make him stubborn!

Not sure if it's game breaking though. He killed 4 rats, they had a static of 6 (3 ranks, outnumber, BSB and Standard). So I actually only lost by 2. He's testing on an 8 with a reroll for the BSB within 12".

So more than likely nothing would have changed. Though I feel like an idiot for forgetting that!

If my opponent was a tool, I will certainly make sure to try and make him a better player. Next I see him we'll go over how the Brass Orb actually works and make sure the list is correct with the Clan Pestilence rules.

I am guessing he was using Thanquol as his guy in the Bell. Only way I can figure he got the 4+ ward.

Are the Clan lists tourny legal? Or do they counts as an appendix list?

if he had thanquol, he had the boneripper out there too. if he had a 4+ wd save anyother way, he needed a 25 point magic item, of a 50 point regen item, but you said he had the fellblade (85 points) the fell blade on a wizard? did he test, because the fellblade hurts whoever wields it.

how about you just tell him to read his book. and dont be a tool.

the lists in the back are not legal, the are Oponents Permisssion Only. they are not balanced in the least. he wasnt running a lustria list, cuz he had grey seers.

i dont think he had any idea what he was doing.

tell him to get over to underempire.net and start asking questions.

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 06:18
he has at LEAST 15 magic dice.

and triple censer bearers?

that list is screaming "WAAC" the poor guy just doesnt know how to do it.

15pd at 3k points? I have seen a lot of people say that 10pd should be the limit for 2k games so 15 at 3k seems reasonable to me.

Censer Bearers are hardly one of the more broken things in WHFB and I would not mark someone down on comp for having multiple units of them.

Foegnasher
17-02-2009, 06:22
15pd at 3k points? I have seen a lot of people say that 10pd should be the limit for 2k games so 15 at 3k seems reasonable to me.

Censer Bearers are hardly one of the more broken things in WHFB and I would not mark someone down on comp for having multiple units of them.

they are fickle, like all things skaven, i have seen a single unit crush an entire flank before, and in another game, the whole fighting rank die to thier own gas.

i just think trying to max out the most uber killy fightning units we have in conjunction with big magic is a bit much.

i take 2 censer units at 2250, but i only got 6 pd, and try to max the horde.

Draconian77
17-02-2009, 06:29
But surely Ratling Guns, Warp Lighting Cannons and Jezzails are the most uber-killy things in the Skaven list? I have played quite a few SAD armies and at this point, I think, 1 Clan Pestilens themed army. They couldn't be too powerful.

Anyway, I have gone totally off-topic(Apologies Dooks) so I'll back out now.

Ward.
17-02-2009, 06:32
he has at LEAST 15 magic dice.

and triple censer bearers?

that list is screaming "WAAC" the poor guy just doesn't know how to do it.

After reading quite a few of your posts I'm curious as to what you would consider a balanced skaven list.


OP: If I was advising your opponent on building a pestilence list, I'd encourage him to incorporate some combat focused character to help out his plague monks.

Nicha11
17-02-2009, 06:43
Perhaps the Skaven guy made a few mistakes, but i don't think his list is even close to WAAC.

Infact the Dark Elf list is far far stronger

Congrats on your win Dooks Dizzo.:D

SevenSins
17-02-2009, 07:05
A nicely played battle, with some luck both ways hanging the game in the balance, thanks for sharing

A not so nice discussion as to this and that, but thats warseer for you ;)
(and please, no one comment that comment)

Nicha11
17-02-2009, 07:48
A not so nice discussion as to this and that, but thats warseer for you ;)


I completely disa.... oh



(and please, no one comment that comment)

Well i'm off to go argue with space marine fanbois:cries:

Foegnasher
17-02-2009, 12:18
After reading quite a few of your posts I'm curious as to what you would consider a balanced skaven list.


OP: If I was advising your opponent on building a pestilence list, I'd encourage him to incorporate some combat focused character to help out his plague monks.

look at the points distribution.

look how many points he has tied up in magic.

look how many points he has tied up in specials in an attempt to get 18 some odd attacks in on his opponent.

a balanced list should be just that, BALANCED! not a ton of shooting, not a ton of magic, and a good mix of core/special/rare choices. if you load up on one, for the sake of fun, i'd get low on the other. but 2 seers/warlock/screaming bell/liber bubonicus? even at 3K it's bad all around.

the core of any skaven army should be clanrats. you need to be spending the most points on them. not plauge monks, not jezzails, and not wizards.

Foegnasher
17-02-2009, 12:19
Perhaps the Skaven guy made a few mistakes, but i don't think his list is even close to WAAC.

Infact the Dark Elf list is far far stronger

Congrats on your win Dooks Dizzo.:D

i guess i'm just touchey about abusive lists, since all i get is crap about how other skaven players are so cheesy.

i'm not that guy, i tend to discourage "that guy".

sorry if i overreacted.

Dooks Dizzo
17-02-2009, 14:21
The only thing that made his army particularly tough against me was all the toughness tests. Plague and the Censors all over the place had a lot of my T3 guys dying.

I don't really think his list was abusive, it might have tried to be but if failed :)

Even with his GIANT pile of power dice I was able to stop most the important stuff. However I will freely admit that the Ring of Hotek is the best anti magic for its points in the game (and by best I mean broken.)

My list is strong, but I don't think it's terribly abusive either, I just think it works well together and generally does okay in all the phases. I have it broken out into:
400 points of shooting
800 points of magic
1500 points of combat
300 or so misc

No real focus on the movement phase as far as models go (except Dark riders) but I use Shadow Lore to beef that up a bit.

No matter the case, I promise you the game was fun as hell, my opponent was of strong character regardless of any mistakes or list building preferences. As people can see by my Win/Loss record I'm not the best Fantast player out there but I have picked up a TON of things from the games I have lost. Without a doubt the games I lose will cause me to win more in the future!

Volker the Mad Fiddler
17-02-2009, 17:36
i guess i'm just touchey about abusive lists, since all i get is crap about how other skaven players are so cheesy.

SNIP

If any army should be cheesy wouldn't it be the rats :)?

Nicha11
18-02-2009, 00:01
sorry if i overreacted.

This is Warseer, overreacting is what we do:p