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long bow
17-02-2009, 07:57
so as the name says why did GW kill kislev i know they dident sell enough but how much is enough? or why dident they keep them in the collectors range?

Neknoh
17-02-2009, 08:54
I thought Chaos sacked them... who is this dark champion named GW you speak of?


On a more serious note: I think they sold too little to validate the store room needed for the metal molds, basically, they wound up in a situation where they almost had to cast on order, meaning the molds needed to stay somewhere, and Kislev DID have a rather large handful of metal models, as such, requiring a relatively large space to store them in. This was a cost that was not covered by their sales, especially when factoring in the metal and the cost of making the mold that also needed to be repaid.

Condottiere
17-02-2009, 08:58
Storage does cost, and amortization looks bad on the balance sheet.

The smart thing to do is create kits that can be converted, whether for Empire, Kislev or Cathay.

Eternus
17-02-2009, 09:17
Storage does cost, and amortization looks bad on the balance sheet.

The smart thing to do is create kits that can be converted, whether for Empire, Kislev or Cathay.

That's not a bad idea, though the sprues would have to be pretty plain, as the 3 variations you mention are all pretty different. Maybe Kislev, Tilea and Estalia should have stayed part of the Empire list, so that people could include just a couple of units, because, as stated, there doesn't seem to be the interest to warrant a seperate army, though I would like to see one.

long bow
17-02-2009, 09:47
would the still have the moulds like in storage or in some guys garage?

Neknoh
17-02-2009, 09:56
As said, the storage was too expensive, the moulds are likely smashed and either thrown away or re-formed into new molds.

Eternus
17-02-2009, 09:59
As said, the storage was too expensive, the moulds are likely smashed and either thrown away or re-formed into new molds.

Blasphemy! I think the moulds for the Kislevites, especially the classic Winged Lancers, would have been kept, even if it was in someone's garage!

long bow
17-02-2009, 10:01
if they did trash them there are some words i would be saying right now.......(you dont want to know)

Orcboy_Phil
17-02-2009, 10:30
I thought GW had two types of storage. The on the shop floor ready to be used kind. And the deep dank dusty vault that is impossible to get to from which they solemnly remove a mould every bluemoon and stick in the collectors range.

chivalrous
17-02-2009, 10:38
I thought GW had two types of storage. The on the shop floor ready to be used kind. And the deep dank dusty vault that is impossible to get to from which they solemnly remove a mould every bluemoon and stick in the collectors range.

The Warhammer World archives perhaps, if such a place exists.

Urgat
17-02-2009, 11:17
I have some very idiotic question to ask: how large is a mould?
I'd love to see a pic of one.
Really, it seems weird they'd break them on purpose, unless they take the room of a car.

Xelloss
17-02-2009, 12:12
More likely they kept the mould, but interchanging mould on the injection machine is not an easy operation, and thus cost money, and take times (so cost money too).

The mould from what I heard is a circular one, the metal going from the center to the side while the mould rotate to compress the metal in the tiny spaces of the mould. Considiring that I think the mould is between 50cm and 1m (diameter), but if someone have the exact information I'm interested too.

scolex
17-02-2009, 13:19
The smart thing to do is create kits that can be converted, whether for Empire, Kislev or Cathay.

I was actually thinking of something like this the other day. I really bet they could fit several of the less detailed (Ind, Nippon, Estalia, Tilea, Araby, and Cathay.) human nations into one book by using a system like Marks/Doctrines/etc. Throw each a few entirely unique units/special characters, and go. (If they can fit a dozen special characters into the SM book, they can definitely fit that lol.)

Now models would be a big problem, no idea how they could manage that rofl.

Eternus
17-02-2009, 13:52
I was actually thinking of something like this the other day. I really bet they could fit several of the less detailed (Ind, Nippon, Estalia, Tilea, Araby, and Cathay.) human nations into one book by using a system like Marks/Doctrines/etc. Throw each a few entirely unique units/special characters, and go. (If they can fit a dozen special characters into the SM book, they can definitely fit that lol.)

Now models would be a big problem, no idea how they could manage that rofl.

They should give away lists for non-mainstream lists and allow people to try them out to see what kind of reaction they get from gamers - maybe an online questionaire to guage popularity or something similar - then go the whole hog and make the most popular ones into full fledged lists knowing that they will have the sales.

Remember the re-vamp they did on Necrons? They were pap first time round, but seem to have stuck much better second time round. Could do the same with Kislev.

Jedi152
17-02-2009, 13:55
I'd love to see Kislev back in the main Empire list, as well as halflings, but the truth is that they were models that almost no-one bought for a pseudo-army that almost no-one plays.

EmperorNorton
17-02-2009, 14:19
Maybe people would have bought it if GW had elevated Kislev from a pseudo-army to a proper army.

scolex
17-02-2009, 14:30
Yeah, GW has a long history of ditching these pseudo armies. I know I wouldn't gamble on buying one.

Not updating some Marine chapters for 2 editions now.

Killing side lists like Catachans, Kislev, etc.

The long time lack of support for BoC, CD, and for a while Wood Elves.

Putting out a new race/army then leaving them to sit for years with zero support. Tau Empire and Ogre Kingdoms come to mind here.

Stuffburger
17-02-2009, 19:03
From what I know of casting all the kislev molds, sculpts and other stuff would fit into a couple xerox boxes (about 3 cubic feet each). It would be beyond stupid to destroy it/melt it down.

Retail space, however is definitely at a premium. 4-5 ft^2 to properly display the kislev line is quite a bit for the one crammed GW store i've seen to manage. They should definitely still be special order though, and keeping the rules updated for some basic human units with direct equivalents in other armies should only take a couple hours every few years...

long bow
17-02-2009, 19:49
so if store space was the problem then why not direct order like vostroyans steel legion etc

cornixt
18-02-2009, 00:41
My local GW only had one order of the models when they were first released. After that they didn't get any more and never made space for them on the racks. Once they were sold off the new release rack there were no more.

They were too close to Empire really anyway (they were part of it back in the old days), I'm surprised that 8th ed Empire didn't have options for them.

swordwind
18-02-2009, 00:55
I have some very idiotic question to ask: how large is a mould?
I'd love to see a pic of one.
Really, it seems weird they'd break them on purpose, unless they take the room of a car.

Depending on the type they're about the size of a car hubcap.

Orcboy_Phil
18-02-2009, 09:14
They were too close to Empire really anyway (they were part of it back in the old days), I'm surprised that 8th ed Empire didn't have options for them.

Well we know whats not comming out in the next army book then/ :D

long bow
18-02-2009, 09:16
who know when gthat will be (if only empire were space marines then we would know 2 years tops =)

BigRob
18-02-2009, 11:34
The kislev models were originally covered by the DOW rules. The PDF list on the website covers light/heavy cavalry which was the standby for using the old models.

The Kislev booklet was released around the storm of chaos as an add on for Empire and the forces of light and the models were re-released and included some new ones. Once the storm of chaos was over then they slowly discontinued the range. The range was never great to begin with and not many models were made since most stores only had the splash release and then they were gone from the shelves.

Now Mail Order has been reformed there is no longer the giant back catalogue you can order from (Even the Chaos Dwarf range was still available from mail order until the reform), so you can't get any of the parts unless your prepared to look on auction sites.

This is not just for the "little list" armies, my friend tried to buy a battle sisters squad from GW yesterday and was told that she would have to mail order them since GW no longer stock them in stores.

Ozorik
18-02-2009, 11:41
Not updating some Marine chapters for 2 editions now.

Isn't that what the marine codex sprinkled with a little imagination is for?


They were too close to Empire really anyway (they were part of it back in the old days),

Kislevites were favoured mercenaries, but still mercenaries, when I started fantasy in 3rd ed (IIRC anyway).

OldMan
18-02-2009, 11:57
I must honestly say, that i am glad that Kislev is dead and digged. This eclectic mix of Poland, Russia and Ukrain, was indigestible for me, for my friends and probably for anyone who lives in eastern Europe.

Kislev may seem to have cool background, but only for you guys in America and Western Europe, who have little understanding of region's history.

As for me, i felt really akward seeing a polish noble in his best, special occasion clothing with husar wings attached to it (:wtf:), riding a polar bear (:wtf:) and having russian name and title (:wtf:).

I'll bet, that for the same reason there will be no Cathay - it would sell in China really poor.

Greetings from Poland :)

EmperorNorton
18-02-2009, 12:39
I must honestly say, that i am glad that Kislev is dead and digged. This eclectic mix of Poland, Russia and Ukrain, was indigestible for me, for my friends and probably for anyone who lives in eastern Europe.

Kislev may seem to have cool background, but only for you guys in America and Western Europe, who have little understanding of region's history.

As for me, i felt really akward seeing a polish noble in his best, special occasion clothing with husar wings attached to it (:wtf:), riding a polar bear (:wtf:) and having russian name and title (:wtf:).

I'll bet, that for the same reason there will be no Cathay - it would sell in China really poor.

Greetings from Poland :)

You realize this is a fantasy game, right?
Of course it doesn't represent the historical background of Eastern Europe properly, because it doesn't intend to.

OldMan
18-02-2009, 12:49
a) The Empire background suits history reasonably good. So it can be done.

b) Would you attach huzar's wing to your best suit?

c) Where, the hell, did he get that polar bear from? Wastes of Chaos?

d) What use is of huzar's wings, when you are riding a bear?

EmperorNorton
18-02-2009, 12:53
a) The Empire background suits history reasonably good. So it can be done.
What do you think is especially historically accurate?
The Emperor's dragon? Steam Tanks? Halflings?

Niibl
18-02-2009, 13:22
b) Would you attach huzar's wing to your best suit?
You wouldn't look flashy in your worst coat, wouldn't you?
Kislev warriors, especially nobles, have to live up to some standards.
Can't have everyone run around like an ungol horse breeder.


c) Where, the hell, did he get that polar bear from? Wastes of Chaos?
The bears found in northern Kislev have dark summer and white winter coats.
In some cases both shades are plain white. A freak of nature thing.


d) What use is of huzar's wings, when you are riding a bear?
Although Tsar Boris of Kislev rides a bear he still has strong ties to the winged lancers.
To show his affinity he still wears the wings making the hussars proud and loyal while granting him their daredevil image at the same time.

OldMan
18-02-2009, 13:38
Empire is a feudal federation with extremally weak ties between its parts. The most powerfull feudal lords are pretty much independent. Those lords have privilige of choosing a new emparor after death of previous one, and thus have a title of elector. Next to electors' domains there is a lot free cities, independent village sized domains ( belonging to some knights whose ancestors were lucky) and such. There are Riebritters ( Robber Knights). Central power is weak, at times to the level of non-existence.
What ties Empirie, is its language and religion, but it doesn't prevent ksenofoby and resentment between inhabitants of different parts of country. Private wars aren't uncommon. Religion is also problematic, just as it was in Germany after reformation. We have dissent between Ulric and Sigmar worshippers resulting in wars of religion. Just as in reality, where emparor had to contineusly balance between the catolics and the protestants, but in fact didn't have much to say.
Knightly Orders - well, the Teutonic Knights Order mostly consisted of Germans.
Border with orcs - situation as with Poland and the ukrainian "Wild Fields". Orks are kosachs (or rather tatars) of warhammer world.
There is a lot more, but i don't want to make an offtopic on my first day on forum :-)


As for Boris - he could just wear brest armor instead of punktuating his expensive kontusz ( that's how this polish outfit is called - no dictionary i've seen have an english word for it), or a husar helmet instead of his even more expensive hat of sable fur( isn't he afraid to lose it in swift like a wind bearcharge? ;-) ). Or if he really wanted to show affinit to husars, why aren't he using husars sabre?
As for bear, i didn't know the change fur color like rabbits. Rather thought they sleep all the winter ;-)

Rolo Ramone
18-02-2009, 15:29
Ohhh, c´mon man. Go and play Warhammer Ancient. This is Warhammer FANTASY.

zid
18-02-2009, 16:55
Kislev was definitely a missed opportunity.
The Kislev list should have appeared in the Storm of Chaos book rather than White Dwarf. GW would have probably sold more Kislev models if they wrote them into the Storm of Chaos storyline rather than out of it.

In the Great War Against Chaos background, Kislev's role has been downplayed more and more as the years go by. It used to be pivotal background.

The Storm of Chaos was an opportunity to exploit one of the great grudge matches, but instead Kislev was written off immediately and then the gaming commenced :mad:

Kislev is getting killed bit by bit in the main background.

At the same time, Black Library authors and WHFRP continue to draw inspiration from it. Go figure.

OldMan's perspective does have a point and shouldn't be dismissed so easily.
But impractical wardrobe is a Warhammer offense not a Kislev one.

RossS
18-02-2009, 18:30
Kislev was definitely a missed opportunity.
The Kislev list should have appeared in the Storm of Chaos book rather than White Dwarf. GW would have probably sold more Kislev models if they wrote them into the Storm of Chaos storyline rather than out of it.

In the Great War Against Chaos background, Kislev's role has been downplayed more and more as the years go by. It used to be pivotal background.

The Storm of Chaos was an opportunity to exploit one of the great grudge matches, but instead Kislev was written off immediately and then the gaming commenced :mad:

Kislev is getting killed bit by bit in the main background.

At the same time, Black Library authors and WHFRP continue to draw inspiration from it. Go figure.

OldMan's perspective does have a point and shouldn't be dismissed so easily.
But impractical wardrobe is a Warhammer offense not a Kislev one.

Agreed. They were a great opportunity that GW did not properly handle. I would concede that their general background, history and appearance seemed to be little more than a mashup of Eastern European stereotypes and historical tidbits. I hope they re-introduce them into the next Empire book.

zid
18-02-2009, 18:43
I hope they re-introduce them into the next Empire book.

With all of the talk about the reappearance of the Doomwheel, Vermin Lord, etc - I started to hope this as well.

but I doubt it

long bow
18-02-2009, 20:00
a) The Empire background suits history reasonably good. So it can be done.

b) Would you attach huzar's wing to your best suit?

c) Where, the hell, did he get that polar bear from? Wastes of Chaos?

d) What use is of huzar's wings, when you are riding a bear?

now you wouldent ask that if you had read any backround at all.
and by the way i am in aus not america.
and by the way again they dont have GW stores in china they have like 10 independent stores that sell it there.

Captain Cortez
18-02-2009, 22:44
Empire is a feudal federation with extremally weak ties between its parts. The most powerfull feudal lords are pretty much independent. Those lords have privilige of choosing a new emparor after death of previous one, and thus have a title of elector. Next to electors' domains there is a lot free cities, independent village sized domains ( belonging to some knights whose ancestors were lucky) and such. There are Riebritters ( Robber Knights). Central power is weak, at times to the level of non-existence.
What ties Empirie, is its language and religion, but it doesn't prevent ksenofoby and resentment between inhabitants of different parts of country. Private wars aren't uncommon. Religion is also problematic, just as it was in Germany after reformation. We have dissent between Ulric and Sigmar worshippers resulting in wars of religion. Just as in reality, where emparor had to contineusly balance between the catolics and the protestants, but in fact didn't have much to say.
Knightly Orders - well, the Teutonic Knights Order mostly consisted of Germans.
Border with orcs - situation as with Poland and the ukrainian "Wild Fields". Orks are kosachs (or rather tatars) of warhammer world.
There is a lot more, but i don't want to make an offtopic on my first day on forum :-)


As for Boris - he could just wear brest armor instead of punktuating his expensive kontusz ( that's how this polish outfit is called - no dictionary i've seen have an english word for it), or a husar helmet instead of his even more expensive hat of sable fur( isn't he afraid to lose it in swift like a wind bearcharge? ;-) ). Or if he really wanted to show affinit to husars, why aren't he using husars sabre?
As for bear, i didn't know the change fur color like rabbits. Rather thought they sleep all the winter ;-)

Indeed their is resemblences. Hello! This is a FANTASY game for intertainment purposes. SHeesh people get so thin skined sometimes.

P.S: When Storm of Chaos came out I was l little miffed about not seeing the Kislevs in the book. My Empire Army was Ostland and I do use some Kislev models. I really wished GW did more with such good looking models.

senorcardgage
19-02-2009, 03:01
Easy. They wanted to make the most expensive banner in the Ogre Kingdoms book COMPLETELY useless instead of just 99.9% useless :)

*god damn ice magic* :D

long bow
19-02-2009, 04:33
I really wished GW did more with such good looking models.
could not agree more

oh and senorcardgage why did GW make that standard?

BigRob
19-02-2009, 08:28
It'll get redone when the book is redone. The Empire used to have the white cloak of immunity to "cold effects" and that has now been dropped for just a basic effect. I always thought DOW should have access to Ice magic but it wouldn't fit into the fluff, since Ice Witches are a very select order who are unlikley to be found outside Kislev.

The Kislev booklet was released at the same time and SOC and came free in WD so most people would have got the rules anyway. The problem they had was the list was so small and retrictive people didn't want to buy the models (apart from the awesome gryphon legion and Boris). To be honest Kossars are rubbish even with their rules. A GW and Bow....T3...no save....It's just not a good day for them as the large WD battlereport showed.

ChaosVC
19-02-2009, 09:16
I for one doesn't mind a third or even fourth army, I can understand Oldman concern with Kislev, but at least they get the looks right...It would be a nightmare for me if they start doing Cathay and then all of them look like super samuria and ninja pandas! You have no idea what horror I went thru during my childhood when a American productions, froms TV shows to kid cartoon decide to take liberty of their creativity and do horrendus design of their own version of how "medievel" Chinese costumes and looks...and they are still doing the same thing even now!

Anyway...a bit off topic there, I honestly hope they would come out with new models for kislev and make a brand new army out of them?! I can never understand why bretonnian is a playable race when Kislev which had more contact with chaos and a more engaging back ground is not.

long bow
19-02-2009, 09:29
no the shouldent update the models they should make more ones like streltsi or a war wagon. but what ever they do they need a new ice queen and how old is it?!?!?!?!?!?

OldMan
19-02-2009, 10:03
now you wouldent ask that if you had read any backround at all.
and by the way i am in aus not america.
and by the way again they dont have GW stores in china they have like 10 independent stores that sell it there.

Of course i did. In fact, i think this have warped my perspective a bit, as i am primarily RPG player who moved to WFB relativly recently.
My first contact with warhammer world was through WHRP 1st. Ed. It was always much more realistic than WFB. There was a common opinion that
WHFR = Dark real Europe + some Fantasy.
WHB and WFRP 2nd. Ed. is rather another way around - Fantasy + some Dark Real Europe.
Both me and my friends prefer that gritty, and more realistic approach. So the dislike 2 steam tanks and Tzar Boris. We also often laugh at those silly High Elfs putting jewels and silver into their combat armors (unpractical wardrobe is indeed a more common issue). Probably they like their jewels and elaborate ornaments being crushed with warhammers and axes.

Besides, i think there isn't enough stereotypes to make a distictive army. We have polish husars and nobility, russian Orthodox Church priests as mages, ukrainian kosachs as infantry. What else? Cannons and hanguns are in Empire. Fast cavalry is almost everywere just as skirmishers. Polish armored cavalry ( elite soldiers class lower than the husars) is not recognisable enough, would be a copy of Bretonia, and everyone would take husars anyway. Polar bear cavalry? Please, be serius.

senorcardgage
19-02-2009, 16:08
oh and senorcardgage why did GW make that standard?

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic and there's something that I should know that I don't...

But, it seems to me like it's the craziest idea of all time. 60 points for a standard that makes your unit immune to ice magic. Unless I'm mistaken, Kislev were the only people with ice magic of any kind.

Pokpoko
19-02-2009, 16:38
Polar bear cavalry? Please, be serius. any more serious than dino-riders and lion-chariots of the elves? or gobbo wolf-riders, elf bird-riders and a whole lot of other "animal-riders" in the WHB?

long bow
20-02-2009, 10:24
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic and there's something that I should know that I don't...

But, it seems to me like it's the craziest idea of all time. 60 points for a standard that makes your unit immune to ice magic. Unless I'm mistaken, Kislev were the only people with ice magic of any kind.

no i am not being sarcastic the only way you can use ice magic is in a 3000pt game when you take a special character (the ice queen) so that means your 60pt standard works aganist 1 model in the whole game.

Hobgoblyn
20-02-2009, 11:45
Who needs Kislev anyway?...
There really wasn't much to their model range-- only thing they provided was Ice Magic, a bear mount (only for the boss if I recall) and non-Chaos human fast cavarly with bows.

All these things could be ported over to a human army without any problem and if one wanted that list to be "Kislev" they'd merely need to paint/accessorize their models accordingly.

If we are going to have another human army, I would prefer to see Cathay since there is a wealth of Chinese mythology to draw reference from and some of the units could have signifigant difference from those you see in the Empire. Plus... a big, scary rival human empire that makes friends with Skaven, Hobgoblins and Ogres would be a much more dynamic and interesting force in the game than a bunch of frosty human mercenaries-- any Russian/Polish flavor one can draw out of it could be done using the Empire rules exactly as they are!

Kerill
20-02-2009, 12:20
As a seperate race and armybook they are not viable.

As part of a revamped DOW list they are certainly viable (and would have rules to allow empire units or to allow kislevites to join Empire more easily as DOW)

As part of the empire book they would be cool as well.

Rolo Ramone
20-02-2009, 16:11
Who needs Kislev anyway?...
There really wasn't much to their model range-- only thing they provided was Ice Magic, a bear mount (only for the boss if I recall) and non-Chaos human fast cavarly with bows.

All these things could be ported over to a human army without any problem and if one wanted that list to be "Kislev" they'd merely need to paint/accessorize their models accordingly.

If we are going to have another human army, I would prefer to see Cathay since there is a wealth of Chinese mythology to draw reference from and some of the units could have signifigant difference from those you see in the Empire. Plus... a big, scary rival human empire that makes friends with Skaven, Hobgoblins and Ogres would be a much more dynamic and interesting force in the game than a bunch of frosty human mercenaries-- any Russian/Polish flavor one can draw out of it could be done using the Empire rules exactly as they are!


One thing don´t means that the other can´t be. I think its a matter of option. More options = Better.

Pokpoko
20-02-2009, 16:30
Who needs kislev? Empire needs it, they stop most of the chaos warbands from reaching those weakling westerners. Seriously, they're the human army that fights against chaos most often,even their youngest warriors have seen things that would make imperial veteran's guts run. They are badass, and you should feel bad for suggesting they can be done away with.

Instead you propose an army we have almost zero background for, that is a whole continent full of ogres,chaos dwarves and other nasties away from the old world, and that probably would be just another human army anyway.

long bow
20-02-2009, 19:45
my opinion of cathay is empire + orges + differant emperer
after not being able to find backround any where other then a map

AlToml
15-03-2009, 20:52
I think that with a little imagination it would not be hard to create a Kislev army. include maybe a wolf pack, winged lances on bears, take the bear and handler from mordheim. make a couple of new cavalry and infantry units and then some sort of chariot and it could be a fully fledged army,

Genrazn
15-03-2009, 21:28
Well Kislev may be dead in WHB But WFRP it has gotten its own sourcebook which I hae ben trying to find and looks absolutely delightful.

But yes, it would be nice if they did implement ice magic more... Though I see that any place with snow a good chance of someone using ice magic is there.

Brimstone
16-03-2009, 12:36
Please remember that even if you disagree with another persons point of view this is no reason to breach forum rules.

The Warseer Inquisition

agger
16-03-2009, 13:06
I think that with a little imagination it would not be hard to create a Kislev army. include maybe a wolf pack, winged lances on bears, take the bear and handler from mordheim. make a couple of new cavalry and infantry units and then some sort of chariot and it could be a fully fledged army,

I don't know if I believe that a new human army really is what warhammer fantasy needs right now, but it certainly could work. As you say, there are alot of usefull possibilities. The chariot thing could be a way of reintroducing the age old empire war wagon, and heroes and lord choices are already partly covered in the background, with the ice witches, the tsars etc.

a problem however, would be that the army would end up playing quite a lot like the empire list...

Draconian77
16-03-2009, 13:11
Well, I don't know much about Kislev but I feel a sourebook with rules for them, the Cult of Ulric and maybe Border Prince armies would be interesting.

Just make them incorporate some of the rules/units from the Empire book and you would have 3 new twists on an old favourite.

W0lf
16-03-2009, 17:54
Not profitable enough to keep running.

GW is a business not your best friend. Geez.

Edit; oh and they are hardly diffrent from empire enough to warrant a new book. Between usign ether empire or Wo\C (marauder heavy ofc) you can easily make kislev.

Keller
16-03-2009, 18:18
As a seperate race and armybook they are not viable.

As part of a revamped DOW list they are certainly viable (and would have rules to allow empire units or to allow kislevites to join Empire more easily as DOW)
I'd be very happy if they made a new Dogs of War book with a selection of Kislev units in it with a rule like Ogre Kingdoms got about being mercenaries (rare in armies, special in DoW armies). They could be re-introduced to Empire in this way without a complete redo. Of course, that's assuming GW will ever support Dogs of War.



Well, I don't know much about Kislev but I feel a sourebook with rules for them, the Cult of Ulric and maybe Border Prince armies would be interesting.

Just make them incorporate some of the rules/units from the Empire book and you would have 3 new twists on an old favourite.

I really like this idea too, though I am not sure how well it would all come together for a story-point-of-view. I would like to have the Cult of Ulric back though.

grumbaki
16-03-2009, 19:45
Besides, i think there isn't enough stereotypes to make a distictive army. We have polish husars and nobility, russian Orthodox Church priests as mages, ukrainian kosachs as infantry. What else? Cannons and hanguns are in Empire. Fast cavalry is almost everywere just as skirmishers. Polish armored cavalry ( elite soldiers class lower than the husars) is not recognisable enough, would be a copy of Bretonia, and everyone would take husars anyway. Polar bear cavalry? Please, be serius.

Using the Mordheim Kislev warband for inspiration:

1) Bear Tamer Unit: Works like a rat ogre unit, with the bears in front and the bear tamers driving them on. No bear riders, but enraged bears being goaded into combat.

"Since ancient times, bears have featured in Kislevite myths and legends. Kislevites have a deep respect for these mighty beasts, and gather to see the trained specimens that accompany traveling circuses. The powerful men that train these bears are known simply as Bear Tamers, and the best of them are widely renowned amongst the people of Kislev. Bears can be trained for martial purposes as well, and Bear Tamers are often recruited into the armies of Kislev, where they enjoy a special status among the soldiery."

2) Streltsi: Core unit, halberds and handguns. They gain +1 to hit with their handguns.

"Firearms were first introduced to Kislev by Prince Boydinov of Erengrad. Though very popular among his people, the prince was considered quite eccentric (it was he that invented the mad game called Kislevite Roulette). Despite initial superstition as time past handguns have been accepted as essential weapons of war. In his legacy the prince had a large portion of his wealth set aside for the establishment and upkeep of a regiment of handgunners. The regiment continues to this day and its members are known as Streltsi. Soldiers from other cities in Kislev, most notably the capital, are sent here to train in the use of firearms with the Streltsi. In addition to their knowledge of handguns Streltsi are also trained to use a small halberd called the berdiche. In fact the berdiche and handgun are the most widely recognized symbols of the Streltsi. In combat Streltsi are able to use their berdiches as rests for their handguns, increasing their accuracy and making for a deadly weapon combination."

3) Cossacks: An upgrade that can be bought for Kislev units, allowing them to hate all chaos models.

"Cossacks are nomadic tribesmen who live in the far north of Kislev. They are always the first to encounter any Chaos invaders from the north, and so have long fostered a bitter enmity with the servants of Chaos. Cossacks are renowned for their riding skills, and their favored weapons are the scimitar (sword) and spear."

------------


Three units that follow the official GW fluff that would allow some individuality for a Kislev list. Then make their fast cav. archers better than what you would see in other races (perhaps a rule where they only suffer modifiers to hit from cover, or allow them to stand and shoot and flee from a charging unit). Their heavy cav. don't get full plate, but perhaps a different rule (like ignoring fear on the charge for their winged lancers). A new lore of magic (ice magic) and infantry without the Empire's detachment system, but who are individually better fighters than the men from down south. Then perhaps allow them only the smaller cannons and none of the Empire's technological advancements.

In the end, they become distinct from Bretonnia and the Empire. They've got gunpowder, monsters and a mix of effective cavalry and infantry. I really don't see where the problem is, and I do think that given their location and place in the fluff they deserve more of a role on the table top.

Draconian77
16-03-2009, 21:18
Not profitable enough to keep running.

GW is a business not your best friend. Geez.

:eyebrows: Somewhat failing to make yourself sound like a businessman there aren't you...

I don't collect Empire but many do. Kislev and the Cult are interwoven into the history of said Empire. Having some alternate rules for them shouldn't be too difficult or costly for GW. It doesn't even have to be a book, some rules online or a White Dwarf list would suffice and they wouldn't need to make any models. Just let players convert from Marauders and Empire bits.



Mandatory!

Volker the Mad Fiddler
17-03-2009, 03:46
I must honestly say, that i am glad that Kislev is dead and digged. This eclectic mix of Poland, Russia and Ukrain, was indigestible for me, for my friends and probably for anyone who lives in eastern Europe.

Kislev may seem to have cool background, but only for you guys in America and Western Europe, who have little understanding of region's history.

As for me, i felt really akward seeing a polish noble in his best, special occasion clothing with husar wings attached to it (:wtf:), riding a polar bear (:wtf:) and having russian name and title (:wtf:).

I'll bet, that for the same reason there will be no Cathay - it would sell in China really poor.

Greetings from Poland :)

Please tell me this is a joke. You are upset about the clothes someone is wearing when by using the same logic, everyone in North America is a completely selfish sadist, still smarting from being defeated in a civil war with England, whose highest goals are to enslave the rest of the world. While that may describe America :) (except for the civil war part), it doesn't fit Canada at all, but we don't complain about the Dark Elves.

In case anyone didn't get it, this message is typed predominately in jest.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
17-03-2009, 03:50
Who needs Kislev anyway?...
There really wasn't much to their model range-- only thing they provided was Ice Magic, a bear mount (only for the boss if I recall) and non-Chaos human fast cavarly with bows.
SNIP

Not true, they provided the only thing resembling a chariot the Empire had [The War Altar doesn't count as it is only a character mount], the aforementioned light cav., the only medium cav. the Empire had, and ice magic which was simply [if you pardon the pun], cool. They should at very least be back in the Empire book [though I would be just as happy if they were in a supported DoW book/army].

mr.kislev
17-03-2009, 07:27
[though I would be just as happy if they were in a supported DoW book/army].
in my army (see log) i just used the DOW rules as a base and just buffed that army up with kislev stuff

OldMan
18-03-2009, 09:53
Please tell me this is a joke. You are upset about the clothes someone is wearing when by using the same logic, everyone in North America is a completely selfish sadist, still smarting from being defeated in a civil war with England, whose highest goals are to enslave the rest of the world. While that may describe America :) (except for the civil war part), it doesn't fit Canada at all, but we don't complain about the Dark Elves.

In case anyone didn't get it, this message is typed predominately in jest.

Uhm, and they aren't ;) ?

Well, i guess this is all a natural side effect of mixing stereotypes. There always will be someone who finds final result akward and artificial. I don't like what GW have made of Eastern Europe, neither people i know.
For sure the fact that we have here kind of canon in books i games on how this time and place should be presented, even in fantasy convention, doesn't help. ( BTW the first adventure books in such setting have been written by Polish greatest writer, and a noblist )

So mayby i am biased. :-)

maze ironheart
18-03-2009, 11:21
so as the name says why did GW kill kislev i know they dident sell enough but how much is enough? or why dident they keep them in the collectors range?

I think it's because theirs 3 armys that use humans and another one would be no different from the others.

kroq'gar
18-03-2009, 11:45
@Oldman
So the english are really upset at seeing their beloved longbow & billmen being down trodden by french knight aristocrats?

Or the south americans are outraged at the myan/aztec/inca lizardmen?

Or how about denmark being portrayed as short bearded fat-men?


Warhammer is a parody of our world, drawing aspects without at all attempting o recreate that country.

The Red Scourge
18-03-2009, 11:56
Or how about denmark being portrayed as short bearded fat-men?

Danes are portrayed as muscly leather fetish lovers and demon worshippers.

Its the norwegians and swedes, who are the chubby alcoholics ;)

OldMan
18-03-2009, 12:50
Well upset is mayby a much too strong word. ( but than again i heard than a samurai panda in Word of Warcraft have made many Chinese upset, so it's not impossible)
I think a daub is good word to describe Kislev. This why i say the army puts many people off.

mr.kislev
18-03-2009, 22:16
Danes are portrayed as muscly leather fetish lovers and demon worshippers.

Its the norwegians and swedes, who are the chubby alcoholics ;)


surely you mean the irish

Toltoï
19-03-2009, 04:18
I will never understand people who say Warhammer don't need another human army! In fact I think there's too many rat-things, lizard-things, undead-things, elf-things, etc... What are the human armies we see so much? Empire and Bretonnia? Chaos is barely human, and DoW are barely an army.

Kislev would fight very differently than those armies. Courageous troops with lots of fast cav, war wagons and combined arm troops like Kossars and Streltsi. Add to that bear riders, ice magic and unique magic items and this list don't look like anything else.

I am actually working on a Kislev army book. I have still some work to do before getting this public, but it's starting to take shape and is looking very good (after some years of work with the people on the Hammer & Anvil forum). I can give you a teaser since people seem to like Ice Magic alot:


Ice Witches and Ice Maidens

Gospodar Warriors; Fear

Seasons of Magic: Unless the scenario says otherwise, before rolling for your spells, the Kislev player make a single d6 roll to know if the battle is taking place in conditions favourable for the Ice Lore. If there’s more than one Kislev player, roll only once for all of them. Consult the following chart for results:

1 Summer’s Peak: subtract 6” from the range of every spells in the Ice Lore. All spells cost an additional +1 to cast.
2-3 Kislev Summer: use normal rules.
4-5 Kislev Winter: Add 6” to the range of every spells in the Ice Lore.
6 Midwinter’s Night: As Kislev Winter. Furthermore, Ice Maidens and Ice Witches add +1 to the Strength of all of their damage dealing spells. The witch have to succeed a Ld test every time she roll a Miscast. If not she is frozen to death (remove the model).



Lore of Ice

All spells from the Lore of Ice are cold-based.

1. Tiski Moroza, Grip of Cold (4+): Magic missile. Choose any single model within 24” and in line of sight of the caster (no other targeting restrictions). It suffers D6 S2 hits with armour piercing.

2. Natisk Burannitzi, Ambush of the Frostfiend (6+): This spell can be cast on any enemy unit that is within 18” of the caster, even if engaged in close combat. If this spell is successful, the entire unit lose the special rule always strikes first (if they had it), and all units attacking them get always strikes first. This spell last until the beginning of the caster’s next Magic phase.

3. Vek Lednikov Age of Glaciers (7+): Magic missile. 24” range. 2d6 S2 armour piercing hits. Any unit suffering one or more unsaved wounds may not charge or march next turn.

4. Sozyvanie Meteli, Invocation of the Blizzard (9+): Remains in play. Place a marker up to 30” in line of sight of the caster. Roll an Artillery die and double the result. Every units within that much inches from the marker is affected by the spell. If the Artillery die rolls a misfire, the entire battlefield is affected. Any missile units (of both sides) within this area must halve their range; war machines and breath weapons may only shoot on a D6 roll of 4+ instead. In addition, all units within the area cannot make a fly move. Seasons of Magic only affect the positioning of the marker.

5. Potczemok Zimy, Midwinter’s Kiss (10+) Breath weapon of S5 without armour save. Treat the caster as if she was a large target for line of sight purposes. If the game is played into Kislev Winter or Midwinter’s Night, you can place the template up to 6” further. Summer’s Peak have no effect on this spell.

6. Revusczi Buran, Howling Shardstorm (11+): All enemy units (including those out of the caster’s line of sight or engaged in combat) within 12” of the caster gets 3d6 S2 armour piercing hits, distributed exactly like shooting.

ddfishy
19-03-2009, 05:40
Its an interesting magic list. very fluff... Although due to the seasons it could make the lore dangerously unpredictable. Even a 6 season is very dangerous since one bad leadership test on what i am assuming is a standard human wizard leadership and you lose a mage....

dannyfave
19-03-2009, 07:02
Its an interesting magic list. very fluff... Although due to the seasons it could make the lore dangerously unpredictable. Even a 6 season is very dangerous since one bad leadership test on what i am assuming is a standard human wizard leadership and you lose a mage....

Yes , but due to the unpredictable nature of this magic I could see these mages being a cheaper buy then their empire equivelent. Thus another thing that would set them apart from other human armies.


the entire unit lose the special rule always strikes first (if they had it), and all units attacking them get always strikes first. This spell last until the beginning of the caster’s next Magic phase.



I think that an easier way to word this would be:
"The unit gains the alway strike last rule regardless of any other rules that they have pertaining to who strikes first"

Or maybe something along the lines of.
"All atacks directed at the afected unit auto hit, you still need to role to wound" that would be another fluffy way of portraying this spell.

mr.kislev
19-03-2009, 07:49
when that is done could you send me a link.
just want to compare it to my one. also when will it be done?

Toltoï
19-03-2009, 15:34
It will take some weeks (maybe months) to finish this since I will need to paint some of my models, get someone who have a better camera than me to take pictures, and finish the page setting. For the moment I can send you a work in progress list if you give me your e-mail. The rules are completed.

About the Witch, she is more expensive than Empire Wizards because she get +1 WS, +1Ld, and cause Fear. The +1S and +6" range for her spells at Midwinter's Night easily balance the danger of a miscast. In Realm of the Ice Queen you can read several examples of the great power of Ice Witches and other examples of frozen deaths (by accident). So by reading you know Ice magic is more potent and riskyer than normal winds of magic.

OldMan
19-03-2009, 15:46
Very nice idea with ice magic.

But how you will explain existance off ice witches and the ice queen in background? I mean, the Siberia in Warhammer is populated by ogres, and by chaos dwarfs ( well in that case "Ural Mountains" at least). Isn't it a bit difficult to squeeze in those witches in "European part of Russia?"

mweaver
19-03-2009, 15:58
Interesting ideas, Toltoï!

The forthcoming plastic Empire huntsmen look like they could make some Kislev troops pretty easily.

Toltoï
19-03-2009, 16:24
? Most of the list was reworked in the last year to fit with the background found in Realm of the Ice Queen, which is the best background source we have for Kislev. It's a sourcebook written for Warhammer RPG, and from your previous posts I saw that you come from RPG, it surprise me that you don't seem to know this book. The Ice Queen is in the Kislev history since the beginning (from what I know).

The list I am working on was written mainly with the help of a Pole (named Vsevolod) who is well-educated in the history of eastern Europe and the Warhammer world. The point where we disagreed was that (like Oldman) he wanted a list that reflect the Polish history (no bear riders, more gunpowder artillery) and I wanted a list that fits in Warhammer. Like you he don't like what GW made with Kislev and it's hard for us to see what is so offensive. It's a little like when Europeens come to Canada (I'm from Quebec) and expect to see Amerindians with bows and tomahawks...

But it is Kislev, and I would like to make my work in continuity with the background already existing.

OldMan
19-03-2009, 16:37
I must have missed it. Probably because i played mostly 1 ed which was never fully imported to Poland, or mayby because my knowledge of the world isn't all that great.
Still, the idea of ice witches seems to have a lot of potential.

BTW, i'm glad i am not the only one with such views on Kislev. :)

Mercules
19-03-2009, 16:55
The Lore of Ice is great. In the online campaign, Crisis in Marienburg I ran a list that included Kislev troops including an Ice Witch(Normal Empire wiz with Lore of Ice) and the spells were very handy.

Invocation of the Ice Storm kept one of my opponents from demolishing me with Ranged attacks for several turns. Glacial Barrier forced another to waste dispel dice so he could use his artillery(other than his single cannon) on me. Freezing Blast caught a few skirmishers unaware killing a few and then opening up another route across some swampy ground for me. Midwinter's Kiss took out a bunch of knights(S5 no AS flame template) and Shardstorm was just golden for eating up large blocks of troops.

I wish I could have access to the Lore of Ice somehow.

ddfishy
19-03-2009, 17:13
It will take some weeks (maybe months) to finish this since I will need to paint some of my models, get someone who have a better camera than me to take pictures, and finish the page setting. For the moment I can send you a work in progress list if you give me your e-mail. The rules are completed.

About the Witch, she is more expensive than Empire Wizards because she get +1 WS, +1Ld, and cause Fear. The +1S and +6" range for her spells at Midwinter's Night easily balance the danger of a miscast. In Realm of the Ice Queen you can read several examples of the great power of Ice Witches and other examples of frozen deaths (by accident). So by reading you know Ice magic is more potent and riskyer than normal winds of magic.

Do you have a work in progress of the full list that I can look at???

LaughinGremlin
20-03-2009, 01:43
Before halflings were thrown into DoW and Kislev made their own contingency, The Empire book had winged lancers, the ice queen, the halflings, etc. Instead of dumping great models, GW should redo what worked in the past: Just stick all these awesome options back into the Empire book! (especially if they're never bringing back dogs of war or Kislev)

That is what ought to be done, because I got a funny feeling that DoW isn't returning, at least not in its present form, but it would make sense for DoW to return with Kislev included within.