PDA

View Full Version : Themed Wood elves - optional Rule change



feintstar
17-02-2009, 07:32
So I'm in the process of building a desert elf list - that's wood elves, but with rocks instead of woods - all arabian based/themed.

Forest Spirits, which will theme heavily, I should add, will look as follows:

Dryads = Sand Spirits
Treekin = Lesser Earth Elementals
Treemen = Greater Earth Elementals - picture an infernal from Warcraft but with sand instead of Fire.

Incidentally, Great Eagles/Warhawks will be flying sand spirits Carrying carpets (ridden), and the Unicorn will be a dust devil, with the mage hovering above it, the centre of the Tornado.

But how to explain Flammable?

It isn't easy, and the best I could come up with is that Any other element would do damage to it, and fire is the only one.

But a far more elegant solution (with my opponent's consent) would be to say that they are actually Lightning Vulnerable - Lightning being the Air element linked energy and therefore opposed to Earth. Lore of the Heavens would give you access to the ability to truly stuff up the treepeople, and against certain armies, it would be much worse than flammable - i.e. Skaven.

But what about all those runes of Fire, Flaming swords, Breath weapons and the like - are they all a little too necessary for game balance? Anvils will totally ruin my units, but Oh well...

Or should I just kick it in the head and make some lame excuse for Fire vulnerability..


Incidentally, the list will go something like:
lvl 4 Spirit Dancer in Dust Devil, Wand of Dispellery, Stone Portal
Prince of Sand, as per Alter Kindred with standard helm, Great Weapon and hail of doom arrow loadout, but riding a magic Carpet (great Eagle)
Prince of Dervishes, Hunting Falcon, Whirl of Sand (6s on challenges)
Sand Djinn, extra dispell Dice, some kind of bound spell, I dunno.

3x 8 Sand Spirits
10 Desert Archers
2x 4 Lesser Earth Elementals with Lesser Elemental Viziers - one unit rides with Spirit Dancer
6 Whirling Dervishes
4 Magic Carpeteers
2 Greater Earth Elementals

That's what I intend to make, and do lists to however many points out of roughly that build.

Like it?

Autobot HQ
17-02-2009, 07:53
The things you mention will muller you anyway as Forest Spirit ward saves are not allowed vs. Magical attacks, so Lore of Heavens and Skaven lightning in all its forms will bypass you anyway. So what you are, I believe inadvertenly, proposing is that you become vunerable to nothing you wasn't already vunerable to, but are immune to half of what you were in regards to flaming attacks.

...Which is a no. Unless you're suggesting you take double wounds from lightning-based attacks, in which case you'd get hosed every game you faced Skaven or magic-heavy lizards.

feintstar
17-02-2009, 08:17
Actually I was suggesting the latter, that I take double damage from lightning instead.

Magic heavy lizards can take fire if they wish can they not? In which case, it shouldn't make much of a difference. And sure, skaven will cream me, but hey, that's what you take on the chin if you want a theme am I right?

The Red Scourge
17-02-2009, 08:20
Autobot speaks the truth.

Fire/flaming is far more common than lightning based attacks. There are no lightning CC weapons, but plenty of flaming for instance.

Autobot HQ
17-02-2009, 08:35
Magic heavy lizards are in fact backed up by Skink Priests. Who can only take Heavens.

Also, Scourge nailed another point here in that whilst there is alot of ranged lightning (Heavens, Skaven, some bound items ... I think ... ok maybe not THAT much...), there are NO close combat lightning items, which means once you're in combat, you're safe. Which is a tad unfair considering you're essentially a combat army.

Leogun_91
17-02-2009, 08:45
Magic heavy lizards are in fact backed up by Skink Priests. Who can only take Heavens.

Also, Scourge nailed another point here in that whilst there is alot of ranged lightning (Heavens, Skaven, some bound items ... I think ... ok maybe not THAT much...), there are NO close combat lightning items, which means once you're in combat, you're safe. Which is a tad unfair considering you're essentially a combat army. IIRC the rune on Thorek Ironbows hammer is supposed to crackle with lightning so that would be a lightning based attack, well he wonīt charge those forest spirits anyway but still. And yes the magic heavy lizards use mainly heavens but a salamader uses flaming attacks these days.

Couldnīt it just be a curse placed by a powerfull fire wizard that makes them vulnerable to fire?

The theme is cool but I would suggest some fast cavalry to further the arabian theme. Maybe exchange the desert archers for 5 horse archers.

feintstar
17-02-2009, 08:50
Desert Horse Archers eh? Interesting... I haven't had much luck/fun using fast cav in the past, but then again, I'm a High Elf player, whose Fast Cav have in the past been overpriced, underpowered, and had minimal shooting capability.

I'll certainly consider that one though, it could look cool.

Oh well. I thought that lightning might balance it out - although aside from the flaming sword, I don't know anyone that actually takes those flaming magic items.

I'll have to go with the (IMO Lame) excuse that elementals take double damage from all other forms of elemental magic. It just so happens that there are no offensive water or air based magic... hang on, is that true? Chillwind can be more dark than cold/water, and ligtning isn't actually air really...

Neknoh
17-02-2009, 09:11
A few notes:

Why not add some cloth or paper to the elementals, seals written on parchment or papyrus or even strips of cloth and then bound around/fastened to the bodies of the elementals/golems that were created.

That way, the flaming attacks cause double damage simply from burning these seals that bind the spirits into their forms.

Another option would be simply to declare that the attacks either dry them out (if they're earth) to such an extreme where they fall appart, or that they turn them into glass (the Hellfire sword comes to mind, it is able to kill a treeman with a single wound).


On another topic, may I suggest using sand on the actual cloaks of the elves and have some of them rising from the ground?

Fredmans
17-02-2009, 10:54
Would not the absolutely simplest solution be to keep flammable against fire attacks and change the fluff surrounding the source of damage? A flaming sword can be a sword forged solely to rid the world of the elemental desert spirits. A flamethrowing cannon can be a runic cannon shooting "dispelling" flames etc. No need to change the rules because of your theme. Easier to adress the fluff, like people calling their Collar of Khorne, Collar of Slaanesh for fluff reasons and so on.

By the way, I like the theme.

/Fredmans

Coram_Boy
17-02-2009, 11:11
how about you need all the moisture you can get, living in a desert, and fire sucks that moisture up and kills you all the faster. It's a bit lame but that seems to be the best alternative.

loveless
17-02-2009, 16:38
The fire turns the sand into glass and makes it all the harder for the spirits to move/fight/function?

Yeah, I'm reaching here...

mattieice
17-02-2009, 17:52
Honestly, the fact that treemen and treekin are vulnerable to fire is ******** in the first place. Have you ever tried to light a living tree on fire? It's a lot harder than one would think. It's not like these guys are covered in gasoline. It's why you have to leave firewood out for awhile: living wood is filled with water. So go nuts with your explanation since flammable treemen doesn't make sense either.

Also, is this an "elves in the desert" theme or are you going for Araby? Because elves in the desert makes me think of Fremen from Dune which I love.

edit: heh, I guess I didn't realize that word is 'offensive'. I'll never understand British slang.

Neknoh
17-02-2009, 17:55
Ever tried doing it with a blowtorch or flamethrower? There's a difference between matches and the Hellfire sword

King Thurgun
17-02-2009, 17:59
Well also remember all the mummification that goes on down in araby, maybe the elementals are bound in old mummy rags that are enchanted to give them animation? Or maybe they're a bit more like ushabti in the tomb kings army? This way you can have them be flammable and still keep your theme.

Variant themes are always great, but you're very close to making this one work without messing with the core rules, and I would suggest you err conservatively on this one. The fact is, having inexplicably flammable earth elementals is sort of overshadowed by the coolness of the army's theme. If I were playing you, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Braad
17-02-2009, 18:11
If you want to do this, go ahead. Sounds logical, and for example my army has acces to lightning as much as flaming (like... none), so doesn't matter that much.

Balancewise I think you are fine. Maybe there are actually more lightning like stuff then flaming anyway, if you count any weapon or such with a description that has something to do with lighting as such an attack, so it will be your disadvantage, making the getting of 'opponents consent' easier.

Also, don't listen to people saying you should change fluff instead of rules. Sometimes it doesn't work, and sometimes rules get in the way of inspiring moments. In that case: kill the rules. This hobby is not meant to be set rigidly in stone, its made to give people fun. If creating your own army is your way of having fun: go ahead, I approve!

Just don't show up at tournaments with this stuff...

mattieice
17-02-2009, 18:13
Ever tried doing it with a blowtorch or flamethrower? There's a difference between matches and the Hellfire sword

well at that point a body will burn just as easily as a live tree.

Foegnasher
17-02-2009, 18:18
Magic heavy lizards are in fact backed up by Skink Priests. Who can only take Heavens.

Also, Scourge nailed another point here in that whilst there is alot of ranged lightning (Heavens, Skaven, some bound items ... I think ... ok maybe not THAT much...), there are NO close combat lightning items, which means once you're in combat, you're safe. Which is a tad unfair considering you're essentially a combat army.

not versus skaven!!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZAP!

N810
17-02-2009, 18:46
Sounds like a cool theme.
I could see your nomadic desert elves only moving a night,
and being vunerable to fire in the desert seems ok
(turning sand to glass or breaking the static cling that holds the sand together).

here's a bit of insperation to get you started...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/playfullyevil/1424517304/

feintstar
18-02-2009, 19:35
Wow guys, thanks for the positive feedback. And that's an awesome sand sculpture - I wasn't thinking down those lines at all, but now I may have to...

I'll try to put up some picks when I really get going. At the moment what I got is a bunch of collected bits and peices and a plan on how to go from there, so we'll see if I can pull it off.

Thanks for the suggestions re flammable rocks - it aint pretty, but It'll have to do - I suppose the rest depends on my opponent.

Oh and I second all motions to the effect that trees should not be flammable. But then again, I'm Australian...

At one stage I was thinking of going the other extreme, which would solve a fair few of the problems - Instead of Arabian, go Sea Elves. Then you rock up with Ice and Water Elementals, with Wild riders on Seahorses riding the crest of a wave on their bases, and Mages etc riding on great Albatrosses, everyone's skin is green...

Problem is the conversions required would be ridiculously difficult (as opposed to ridiculously easy in the case of the Arab themed one) And you also miss out on all the wicked Arabian culture stuff, which is ever so cool if done right.

N810
18-02-2009, 19:55
Maybe you could have a Coal Elemental instead of Treemen...
I mean they are made of realy old trees... ;)
and they would be quite flamible.
http://www.mtgsale.com/images/TSP/Coal_Stoker.jpg


lol I know Giant Vultures instead of Eagles. :)

and model some cactus (woods).

innerwolf
18-02-2009, 20:16
I think Nomadic desert Elves are a cool concept and they have a lot of potential.
With the Elementals I would go the "sand elemental with papyrus scrolls for magical binding". Fluffy and it fits the rules.
I have only two problems with it.
First, your Elves will move through woods. You could have a hard time explaining it.
Second, I think you rely too much on that "whirl thingies", when you can have Rocks(the giant prey birds) as your giant eagles. More variation would help you exploit the army's theme even further.

Oh, and I wouldn't forget converting one of your models inspired by the Prince of Persia's main character( pick the game you like the most, if you like any ^^). It would fit your Alter like a glove.

Cheers with your project!

feintstar
19-02-2009, 06:06
As for the woods problem, I have a rather (IMO elegant) solution:

Rock formations are my Woods. That includes any stone ruins, but not intact buildings, and I bring a bunch of rocks to the table every time we play. I get to stone sing the ruined buildings around, calling upon the powers of earth mastery that these strange desert elves have amassed.

Which would mean heaps interesting stuff when Wood Elves vs Stone Elves, as the woods and the rocks manuver around each other...

ChaosVC
19-02-2009, 06:23
Like your idea of a theme army, makes warhammer world a little more interesting. Anticipating the look of those models when you are done.

IMHO, your fluff is great and will make good asthetic for table top, don't really need to worry about explaining why they a somehow more vunerable to flames or such minor details. As long as you can pull it off, its will be a great army anyway. You don't see arabian sand elves everyday.

innerwolf
19-02-2009, 16:51
As for the woods problem, I have a rather (IMO elegant) solution:

Rock formations are my Woods. That includes any stone ruins, but not intact buildings, and I bring a bunch of rocks to the table every time we play. I get to stone sing the ruined buildings around, calling upon the powers of earth mastery that these strange desert elves have amassed.

Which would mean heaps interesting stuff when Wood Elves vs Stone Elves, as the woods and the rocks manuver around each other...


I think your solution is quite inspired and nobody will have problems with it. Woods and rocks offer the same penalties and benefits, and they are about as frequent on a gaming table.

To insist on my (hope not that annoying) advice, I would look for Gamezone Windriders. Big, sinamic and extremely detailed Great Eagles. I would love to play an Elven army again to field one.
For the elves, having cloth wrapped around their head and face would look amazing, although you could use the hooded, half-face covered heads too.

I'm really looking forward to see your conversions.