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View Full Version : Should I come back to 40k?



scolex
17-02-2009, 14:38
I started with 40k in early 3rd, and quit during 4th. I was mainly upset about 40k's lack of tactical depth as compared to Fantasy, and the poor balance work being done. But I have heard some good things about 5th, and lets face it Fantasy is having it's own balance problems in 7th.

So have the rules gotten deeper/better? Are there still things like the Tyranids lists with 2 minimum sized Troops choices and a bunch of monsters?

Mannimarco
17-02-2009, 14:47
the balancing issues still exist, some can be pretty bad (nob biker armies im looking at you) but by in large gw has gotten better at the whole balance thing, the game still isnt as tactical as WHFB and more often than not does degenerate into a massive dice fest with little thought involved

the game is what you make it

genestealer_baldric
17-02-2009, 14:48
Are there still things like the Tyranids lists with 2 minimum sized Troops choices and a bunch of monsters?

yeah Nidzilla's lists are still going strong,

its still not like fantasy, but with new rules like conlsiladte rules you dont get 1 carnifex munching through the whole of your army now.

but with more focus on capturing points people with small limited troops choices servely limit there chances to win. The need of basic troops in most armies as being the only real unit able to capture points

SPYDER68
17-02-2009, 14:55
66.66% of the missions are Capture objectives now, which Troops only can do.

so bring on nidzilla and their very few troops

and only 33.33% of the missions are off who kills who the most.


Nob bike armies can be mean, but is beatable, same with nidzilla, lash is up there to at times.

Pretty much thou, if you bring a solid balanced list, you can win.

Last tourney i went to (750pts) i took my guard and went 3 wins and 1 tie for first, and guard is suppost to be weak right now, but i just took a solid list and won.

No reason to flat out quit fantasy, just keep an army of both, and play which that you feel like at that moment.

scolex
17-02-2009, 15:12
No plan to quit Fantasy at all, so don't worry there. Despite the current flaws I've probably never had a bigger interest in Fantasy. (not to mention never been more able to finance it either) I never totally quit 40k as well, kept one army around for just such an occasion. My revived interest in 40k actually came about when I realized I had two entire tanks in my bits boxes.

Hmmm I like the Troops only for objectives thing. Means a smart player can basically force Nidzilla type lists into no better than a tie on turn 1 or 2 rofl.

And the games isn't only what you make of it. If your local community is turned into an arms war of cheese, you either play ball or go home.

Think I'll go ebay a 5th rulebook from that starter set for a few bones.

the1stpip
17-02-2009, 15:19
I am currently taking a hiatus from fantasy, as I too have grown sick of the imbalance (I play Beasts) but I do enjoy fantasy.

This is probably the best edition yet, but there are some very tactical armies out there, if you want to take the time to learn how to play them.

Vedar
17-02-2009, 16:49
Nidzilla and Nobzilla are alive and well. Most armies can take cheesy lists. 9 Oblits for chaos, 5+ landraiders for SM, 3 mololiths for necrons. I normally bring two lists to game night. One to battle the cheese and one for normal players that don't play Nidzilla type lists.

ScooterinAB
17-02-2009, 17:08
Like Spyder said, 5th edition has more of a focus in troops than on anything else. Although "special" heavy armies are still valid, their likelihood of winning is going to be diminished. And honestly, I think it is about freaking time. There is nothing wrong with troops (although I'm building Chaos, who have a bolter, bolt pistol, and chainsword as standard, so I'm a little biased). The special troops are nice, but the troops make up the body of the army. The also make up some of the meet shield (hey, I'd rather lose a few Marines than a Khorne Berserker or Raptor).

Johnnyfrej
17-02-2009, 18:36
I started with 40k in early 3rd, and quit during 4th. I was mainly upset about 40k's lack of tactical depth as compared to Fantasy, and the poor balance work being done. But I have heard some good things about 5th, and lets face it Fantasy is having it's own balance problems in 7th.

So have the rules gotten deeper/better? Are there still things like the Tyranids lists with 2 minimum sized Troops choices and a bunch of monsters?
What armies do you have for 40k? That would give us an idea of how to explain how 5th edition has changed your armies.

Simo429
17-02-2009, 19:04
can someone explain to me what a cheese list is and what nobzilla/ nidzilla is?

cheers

Vic
17-02-2009, 19:21
Cheese is a list made without regard to fluff, a win at all costs mantra being the guide. Not fun to play against, unless your into that thing. It's a subjective label and usually leads to flame-fests on this board. Nob/Nid zilla lists are losely ork/nid lists that are heavy on strong units, low on troop counts. Not as strong in 5th as in 3rd and 4th...Anyway, this answer is given as Im about to head out the door, ciao!

HsojVvad
17-02-2009, 19:25
66.66% of the missions are Capture objectives now, which Troops only can do.

so bring on nidzilla and their very few troops

and only 33.33% of the missions are off who kills who the most.




LMFAO :D The way I read it the first time, you would think there are lots of different ways to play the game. There are only 3 ways to play the game. 2 of them, you need to capture objectives as said before, the other, is just ahnialation. Just kill them all for KP, witch people say is horrible and ruins the game.

Only Troops can claim objectives, while anything can contest an objective. So if you want to win, you will need good troops. The only way around to winning, and not from troops is to destroy everything your opponent has.

AmBlam
17-02-2009, 20:13
Now is a bad time IMHO. There is what 2 5th ed Codecies? Space Marines and Orks.

The_Outsider
17-02-2009, 20:22
Now is a bad time IMHO. There is what 2 5th ed Codecies? Space Marines and Orks.

Number of 5th ed codices =/= true reflection of game balance.

Besides, you forgot daemons :P

MasterDecoy
17-02-2009, 20:26
and CSM, there are plenty of 5th ed codice's

The_Outsider
17-02-2009, 20:28
and CSM, there are plenty of 5th ed codice's

Not really - most of them were designed before 5th ed had been "locked down", the development time for a codex these days is fairly extensive (at least a year).

scolex
18-02-2009, 00:05
I play SM. They are Blood Angels technically, but they haven't received support in over a decade so ..... codex sm is how they play.

sydbridges
18-02-2009, 00:13
3 mololiths for necrons.

...that's called "The Necron player has given his opponent an easy win." It's only difficult to beat if you for some reason think you have to destroy the 'liths. Which is like being handed a cake on a ceramic plate and complaining that the plate is hard to bite through.

Wolflord Havoc
18-02-2009, 00:19
I think 5th Ed is the best version so far.

Armies that totally owned games in 4th - for example the all killing - Blood Angel Tornado Speeder, Death Company and two 5 man scout squad armies are now screwed in 5th Ed! They got rid of the glancing table for vehicles and skimmers only get a 'save' if they go flat out - so skimmers are a bit harder to use and easier to hurt.

In 2 of the main 3 missions Troops are the only unit that can claim an obective. In the 3rd each unit gives away a point if destroyed - which has screwed my Guard as an HQ squad officer + 4 men) is worth 2 points LOL. However it looks like they are addressing that in the new Guard codex.

I think they went a little mad on the Orks and a lot of people think the SM codex is OTT. But the strength of the marine Codex is the tactical Squad - it has some cheese but generally you are paying for it (exception being the TFC - all of GW must have been smoking something when that thing was invented!).

Some of the Ork Special Characters give units they lead some rediculous abilities but hey gnerally 5th is better.

Wolflord Havoc
18-02-2009, 00:20
...that's called "The Necron player has given his opponent an easy win." It's only difficult to beat if you for some reason think you have to destroy the 'liths. Which is like being handed a cake on a ceramic plate and complaining that the plate is hard to bite through.

LOL love it.

Culven
18-02-2009, 00:20
When playing my Tau, I have to Destroy the Monoliths. It just isn't funny otherwise. My favorite Tau vs. Necron game was in a 1500 point tournament. Beginning of the game, my opponent had two Monoliths and I had one Hammerhead. Opponent had first turn, on his second turn he had one Monolith, and on his third turn he had a Monolith shaped pillbox on his side of the table, where it was too far away to use Lightning Arc and he had to resort to the Ordnance weapon. I don't know whether he learned that a Monolith is a support unit as i never saw him again.

scolex
18-02-2009, 04:41
Armies that totally owned games in 4th - for example the all killing - Blood Angel Tornado Speeder, Death Company and two 5 man scout squad armies are now screwed in 5th Ed!

This is the exact kind of junk I didn't want to see anymore. Jerks making my Chapter look all Gouda-ey.

Ronin_eX
18-02-2009, 05:25
If 4th annoyed you 5th will likely do much of the same. It was a minor improvement to a system that was flawed from the get go. It has its own glaring flaws as well so they ended up fixing a bit and breaking a bit.

I suggest picking up No Limits, Stargrunt II, 5150 or Defiance and using those for your 40k minis instead. Each has an army design system and they can accommodate most sci-fi settings (Stargrunt is great but works best for mostly-human hard sci-fi, the others can do anything though).

But in the end the tactical depth of 5th is more or less equal to 4th and 3rd with the addition of a run rule as a new option for movement (giving a whole two options in the movement phase!).

The alternative would be to pick up Rogue Trader or 2nd Edition as they tend to be deeper games with more options and thus more tactical depth. They are both OOP though so it would take some work, thus a flexible sci-fi system like the four mentioned above would be your best bet as they are all currently available.

I wouldn't expect 40k to noticeably improve for many years to come (next edition will be out 3-4 years from now so check back then :p). So use this time to explore the rest of the hobby.

Bento
18-02-2009, 07:17
I started with 40k in early 3rd, and quit during 4th. I was mainly upset about 40k's lack of tactical depth as compared to Fantasy, and the poor balance work being done. But I have heard some good things about 5th, and lets face it Fantasy is having it's own balance problems in 7th.

So have the rules gotten deeper/better? Are there still things like the Tyranids lists with 2 minimum sized Troops choices and a bunch of monsters?

They're better, but they're still more or less the same as 3rd ed. Lots and lots of subtle changes that do bring the game about a bit. But yeah, do as the chap above me suggested and try something different if you can get a game of it in.

Once you get out of the IGOUGO rut, then you can turn around, look at it critically, and decide whether you really liked it or not.

HsojVvad
18-02-2009, 13:22
I play SM. They are Blood Angels technically, but they haven't received support in over a decade so ..... codex sm is how they play.

What you mean they havn't recieved support? They got updated 2 years ago, just right after DA got a new codex. Yes you didn't have to go out and buy it, you can get it for free online, but it has gotten support.