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Somerandomidiot
17-02-2009, 20:02
While I've been choosing the Librarian model I want to use for the SM chapter I'm building, I glanced over the Librarian description...

Librarians provide psychic support to a Space Marine army and are very effective in close combat. Their psychic hoods prevent enemy characters from using psychic powers, which is especially useful against Chaos and Eldar armies whose psychic abilities are often pivotal to their battle plan. As well as this, they have a range of psychic powers to choose from each useful for dealing with enemy units. Armed with a force weapon a Librarian can slay an opponent outright with a single wound. This enables Librarians to take out powerful enemy characters such as Demon Princes and Hive Tyrants.

This got me thinking, what exactly is the point of a force weapon these days? Almost anything you'd want to kill with it is either immune (Tyranids in synapse, Daemons, many characters) or too tough (C'Tan, Wraithlords) to wound with S4, killing a lot of the cinematic uses for force weapons. Barring strange and unforseen rules interactions like the Grey Knight force weapons (not sure on the final ruling for those), does anyone here use them consistently, and how?

Waaaaaaagh!
17-02-2009, 20:08
Only use for them are the Grey Knights ones (they work against Daemons, big shock there) and if you somehow manage to get your Librarian in B2B with a Non Special Multiwound Character (Or Nob Bikers... Freaking Bikers).

Lord Damocles
17-02-2009, 20:08
Now that everyone and their granny has Eternal Warrior, the only real use for it is as either as a 'free' Power Weapon, or to kill the occasional (non-Tyranid) multi-wound model.

Luckily, Librarians tend to be choosen for their funky psychic powers rather than their choppyness...

The_Outsider
17-02-2009, 20:19
I dunno, I force weapon'd a grotesque once, that has to be pretty useful right?...........

Sir_Turalyon
17-02-2009, 20:28
The primary function of force weapon is storing warp power (equivalent of Mana / WFB power dice), enabling Librarian with no targets to save his power rather then (not) use it, so that in next turn he can use twice as many psychic powers, or twice harder to cancel with psychic hood / Eldar Runes.

Or, as a side effect, if he uses force weapon as a weapon, he can use stored power to amplify damage dealt. For some reason, when 40k made transition from 2nd to 3rd edition, only this side effect was represented by rules, and it stuck.

the blind knight
17-02-2009, 20:39
The primary function of force weapon is storing warp power (equivalent of Mana / WFB power dice), enabling Librarian with no targets to save his power rather then (not) use it, so that in next turn he can use twice as many psychic powers, or twice harder to cancel with psychic hood / Eldar Runes.

Or, as a side effect, if he uses force weapon as a weapon, he can use stored power to amplify damage dealt. For some reason, when 40k made transition from 2nd to 3rd edition, only this side effect was represented by rules, and it stuck.

I am going to go on the limb here,and say:

Wait,what?:p

Waaaaaaagh!
17-02-2009, 20:53
I am going to go on the limb here,and say:

Wait,what?:p

Seconded, third-ed and Tuesday.

RCgothic
17-02-2009, 20:57
It's also a bit weird to see Calgar walk away from a blast that would have cut a titan in half. (Strength D weapons). Bloody eternal warrior/synapse.

Culven
17-02-2009, 21:14
The primary function of force weapon is storing warp power (equivalent of Mana / WFB power dice), enabling Librarian with no targets to save his power rather then (not) use it, so that in next turn he can use twice as many psychic powers, or twice harder to cancel with psychic hood / Eldar Runes.
Or, as a side effect, if he uses force weapon as a weapon, he can use stored power to amplify damage dealt. For some reason, when 40k made transition from 2nd to 3rd edition, only this side effect was represented by rules, and it stuck.

I am going to go on the limb here,and say:
Wait,what?:p

Seconded, third-ed and Tuesday.
I'm going to assume that someone is still playing second edition. I've been playing since third, and while none of that made any sense to me, it does sound a bit like the sillyness that is spoken of in myths and legends of second edition.

Snotteef
17-02-2009, 21:22
He is referring to second edition. I think he's trying to show how their use has changed over the years.

maelstrom66669
17-02-2009, 21:57
Yeah I thought they were just powerweapons, as if librarians werent tough enough. Had me worried there for a second.

1201307
17-02-2009, 22:07
Actually Tyranids in synapse are still killed out right by force weapons. The tyranid codex says thats that tyranids in synapse range are only immune to instant death caused by weapons thats are double the toughness of the tyranid.

EDIT:Oh i didnt know that the Tyranid FAQ had changed this.

Culven
17-02-2009, 22:14
Actually Tyranids in synapse are still killed out right by force weapons. The tyranid codex says thats that tyranids in synapse range are only immune to instant death caused by weapons thats are double the toughness of the tyranid.
You may want to read the Tyranid FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180140_Tyranids_FAQ_2006-08_5th_Edition.pdf). Refer to the Errata at the top left. You may need a hanky with all of the crying that will ensue.

Evil_Toast
17-02-2009, 22:15
Tyranid FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180140_Tyranids_FAQ_2006-08_5th_Edition.pdf)

Sorry dude , 'nids in synapse are immune to most forms of instant death , be they Force Weapons or Wraithcannons .

Deamonhunter Force Weapons however still kill them outright ....

ehlijen
17-02-2009, 22:22
If you ever catch a carniefex outside of synapse you can FW it.
Most non-MC characters are not eternel warriors (even though some are).

Bascially, FWs can ID most things you could also ID with a powerfist, but you get to do it in I order, for what ever that's worth to you.

Sir_Turalyon
17-02-2009, 22:27
I apologise for being unclear, I was trying to state in-world purpose of force weapon based on all rules I'm aware of. What I wanted to say is that force weapons lost most of purpose long ago, and GW does not seem to know - or care - what their present purpose is. Back in 2nd edition (probably RT too; i've read the rules but don't remember them) force weapons had purpose; they were useful tools for psykers to amplify their powers with, and could double as deadly weapons. They were part of psychic system as well as close combat rules. In 3rd edition psychic powers got simplified, and force weapons reduced to their side effect, becoming exotic power weapons that only psykers could use - more a token special toys for librarians then essitial part of psychic or close combat system rules. Recently they became less useful with all Eternal Warriors around, and mandatory for librarians / sorcerers at the same time.

In my opinion force weapons are relic of previous editions, given token rules because librarians with plain power swords would be less "arcane". They are here to make psykers look more original, otherwise they would long go way of hand flamer.

Gray Hunter
18-02-2009, 00:04
Yeah, the original purpose of Force weapons seems to have been largely forgotten amongst the 40k community. Good thing there are Venerable Dreadnoughts like us that are occasionally awoken to remind these young pups of their heritage.

I miss the old Force weapons. I never left home without Njal Stormcaller and his, which was one of the best.

You guys might want to tune me out while I start rambling like Grandpa Simpson now...

Culven
18-02-2009, 00:15
. . . the year was nineteen dickity two, we had to say dickity because the Kaiser stole our word for twenty, anyway, I was wearing an onion on my belt, as was the fashion of the time, a white onion, not a yellow one, so there I was. . .

I never played a second edition game, and I think that I should consider myself lucky. It seems like it was more hastle than it was worth. I've heard stories of Herohammer and how one character with a Brightlance killed two nigh-undefeatable enemy characters causing the army to immediately fold (why play without the uber characters?).

trigger
18-02-2009, 00:47
2nd ed was cooooool :D and it was not all about herohammer , just some people exploited that part of the rules.

Back on topic , if you give your librarian the psykic power that takes you to S6 then use that with a force wepon you can now ID almost every thing :D

Sanctjud
18-02-2009, 00:50
@Trigger: you'd have to be the second level Librarian... and IMO that's just too expensive to pull off a Str 6 + force weapon....just too damn expensive.

Purpose: To gank mid-power level characters.
Secondary: To add some flavor, but failing at it.

My 7 Cents.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-02-2009, 00:52
Force Weapons. Ugh. Thanks GW. No point now.

Monstrous creatures? No point, most immune to ID.

ICs with multiple wounds or multiple wound models? Nah, I'd be better off using a hidden powerfist. Cheaper and doesn't risk a character. Meanwhile, my character (Lord with Claws) will be shredding infantry in concert with Raptors. Because that makes him actually useful, unlike my really cool Sorcerer model.

trigger
18-02-2009, 00:53
to expensive , i think not , this makes him well worth his points if you use him corectley.
you have to speculate to accumilate :D

Hellebore
18-02-2009, 01:05
Force weapons are just another victim of GW making rules to negate special rules that negated rules in the core rules.

What this says is not anything to do with eternal warrior, or force weapons, but to do with the Instant Death Mechanic. But instead of changing it, they just created more rules that ignored it, or caused it or ignored the cause of ignoring the damage that caused it.

Just as AP got to be a problem, but instead of fixing AP, they decided everyone should get a 50% chance of ignoring shots. Now AP and Armour are both far less useful, despite armour specifically being one of the most important parts of 40k. When is a terminator ever going to take a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting now? With almost every kind of cover save at 4+ and the ability to get it simply by the enemy shooting through its own units, Terminators have a 5+ sv in name only because a 4+ cover save will obviously be better.

The Force Weapons were much more interesting in 2nd ed, although the psychic phase did seem a little awkward. Of course, eldar witchblades were still better than normal force weapons, but just like the shuriken catapult, apparently the eldar aren't as advanced as people thought they were.

The solution would be something like ID causing D3 wounds per hit, or D6.

GW however has simply created a very binary system of yes and no rules. Which of course means the only variation on a Yes rule is to create another rule that says No over the top. Without variety you are stuck with only 2 outcomes which is why FW suck so much.

Hellebore

kultz
18-02-2009, 01:16
2nd ed was cooooool :D and it was not all about herohammer , just some people exploited that part of the rules.

Back on topic , if you give your librarian the psykic power that takes you to S6 then use that with a force wepon you can now ID Guardsmen :D

Corrected.

Dangersaurus
18-02-2009, 01:22
You can store your unused Force Cards in them, but they ain't comin' back out until 7th edition.

Heretic12
18-02-2009, 02:07
Well despite the fact that plenty of things have Eternal Warrior, though Im not sure about that, the only thing Ive seen with this rule are Daemon Princes and maybe Greater Daemons but uh Im not next to my dex at the moment.

Anyhow, it still helps kill annoying targets, I use my Sorcerers Force Weapon often enough on Nobz and such as well as claiming a PK Warboss last game when it came down to a 1v1 for the win. Dunno if Marine Captains have this rule, maybe. IG characters and such while not really fearsome can be annoying so it helps, All Inquisition characters some of which hurt like hell, Eldar and Dark Eldar.

Considering that most people will wait as long as possible before allocating wounds on their lords, getting into combat a round or two and they will have to wound it eventually and a LD10 check is very simple to make.

Is it possible, its less "Everything has Eternal Warrior" and more "Everyone plays Chaos/Marines" ?

olmsted
18-02-2009, 02:07
just useless power weapons. only use is taking on non special character hqs or 2 wound models like oblits who will survive to smack you around with powerfists later. krak missiles and lascannons do the work alot better

TheMav80
18-02-2009, 02:44
You can insta kill crisis suits with them still. Not that most things with access to force weapons need help killing crisis suits in CC, but there ya go.

I don't think Eternal Warrior is as prolific as some are saying. No Tau have it. Only one Ork has it and he is a speial character. If I remember right Guardsmen have a one off wargear item that can stop it. Who else actually has it? I know some SM Special Characters do, but the regular characters don't do they?

Hellebore
18-02-2009, 02:50
The only MCs I can think of that DON'T have it are wraithlords, Talos, and C'tan. Daemon Princes, GDs, Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes within Synapse range etc all have EW.

In fact, the daemons are the most ridiculous of the lot. One of the original purposes of a FW was to completely obliterate daemons. No aura save and automatically wounded.

Now, not even a T3 herald with 2 wounds can be insta killed by one because all daemons have Eternal Warrior, despite one of the REASONS for force weapons was to destroy daemons.

Phoenix lords, Calgar, Lysander, Medallion Crimson, Ghazgkull? all have EW. Standard characters don't tend to, but, why take a standard warrior when you can get better and cheaper SCs?

Hellebore

trigger
18-02-2009, 02:52
so far all i have seen that cant be done by a librarian are.......
Nid synapse creatures
Big deamon stuff
Pheonix lords
Marnus callgar.

As far as im aware every thing else big can be ID'd

mightygnoblar
18-02-2009, 03:05
so far all i have seen that cant be done by a librarian are.......
Nid synapse creatures
Big deamon stuff
Pheonix lords
Marnus callgar.

As far as im aware every thing else big can be ID'd

Add to that Gazgul, lysander, then factor in that a libarian cant actually hurt a wraithlord or c'tan

the poblem becomes that you cant force weapon things that are really worth force weaponing, your left usings its ability on things like guardsmen or other hqs that you could kill normally anyway

ehlijen
18-02-2009, 03:08
All the things (or at least many) that can still be ID'ed:
Ogryns
IG characters that didn't buy the somewhat expensive medallion crimson or have used it already.
Ork nobs and characters
Eldar farseers and autarchs.
Wraithlords
Talos
DE characters
Grotesques(?)
Ripper swarms
Nids outside synapse (yes it can happen, especially if you make it happen, though it may not be easy)
Scarab swarms
tomb spyders
necron lords
Most SM characters
Most CSM characters
Spawn (at least the CSM version?)
All tau (suits, kroot ox, shaper, ethereal)

While eternal warrior is becoming ridiculously prevelant, ID is still a threat to most characters. And at a base strengh of 4 or less, most FWs were never intended to be reliable MC hunters anyway, at least not since 3rd ed (I don't know about 2nd ed). Only DHs changed that and they are still the only ones (unless you count epistolaries with might).

Yes, most things that are reliably FW-ed are not that hard to kill anyway, but it's a lot quicker if you use a FW. You might kill that officer before he swings his powerfist or that terminator character made all but one of his invul saves so you need the FW to kill him this round...there's plenty of times a FW is a nice thing to have.

trigger
18-02-2009, 03:15
Add to that Gazgul, lysander, then factor in that a libarian cant actually hurt a wraithlord or c'tan

the poblem becomes that you cant force weapon things that are really worth force weaponing, your left usings its ability on things like guardsmen or other hqs that you could kill normally anyway


but you can if you use another power :D

John Vaughan
18-02-2009, 03:16
On the same hand though, a powerfist would have killed the terminator outright anyways. I think I'll side with the fist on this one.

Here's an idea: Forcefist? I wish...

ehlijen
18-02-2009, 03:24
But powerfists also mean you will not ever strike before anyone else and have a harder time getting the 2 weapon bonus.
Force weapons on the other hand just need a pistol for the other attack and can ID that PF user before he gets to strike.

No, it's not always better than a powerfist, just as a powerfist isn't always better than a FW. Also, most models with access to FWs don't get that choice anyway:
Sanctioned psykers only get access to FWs
Librarians ditto
Why would you buy a PF for a grandmaster if you get a NFW for free?
That leaves inquisitors, I think they do get both but at ridiculous prices for both.

FWs are not the reason you by psykers, but they are not bad additions to what the psyker gives you otherwise.

John Vaughan
18-02-2009, 03:27
I agree. But when it comes down to it, a powerfist will win out against a force weapon more often than not.

Sergant ChinStrap
18-02-2009, 03:42
The best use of a force weapon i have seen is a grand master charging a nightbringer strucking first (I5 vs I4)with 5 attacks plus master-crafted so five hits, needing 6's to wound he got one 6 and the 'cron player was like "im gonna pass this" (as NB hadnt taken a wound from 3 shooting phses) but he failed and then DH dude was like come on leadership 10 or less and he passed. Well it needed saying but thats the way to kill nightbringer, or it was just a fluke. You decide...

Devil Tree
18-02-2009, 04:00
The problem with using a power fist on an IC is that he’ll always get picked out before he has the chance to use it.

RichBlake
18-02-2009, 04:33
The Avatar doesn't have EW :)

Snotteef
18-02-2009, 04:33
Besides storing power, 2nd edition force weapons gave a strength bonus equal to the character's mastery level. A Strength bonus would be more useful AND fitting. Even a power weapon with +1 strength would be more useful (all around) than the current force weapon rules.

Gray Hunter
18-02-2009, 04:58
. . . the year was nineteen dickity two, we had to say dickity because the Kaiser stole our word for twenty, anyway, I was wearing an onion on my belt, as was the fashion of the time, a white onion, not a yellow one, so there I was. . .

I never played a second edition game, and I think that I should consider myself lucky. It seems like it was more hastle than it was worth. I've heard stories of Herohammer and how one character with a Brightlance killed two nigh-undefeatable enemy characters causing the army to immediately fold (why play without the uber characters?).

Yep, that's exactly the meandering blathering that I was going to launch into.

I wouldn't say you're lucky that you missed second edition per se. Second edition has a special place in the hearts of many, but a good part of that is just nostalgia. As soon as third ed came out, I made the switch because it was so much more streamlined. I'm really stoked on fifth edition because it has all of the streamlining of third edition, but has the "feel" of second. All in all, I think we have the best of all worlds with this edition, which I believe is why so many Long Fangs such as myself are returning to the game.

Corax
18-02-2009, 06:39
The Force Weapon entry in the codex is actually a typo. It should read Farce Weapon, because it no longer serves any purpose other than annoying veteran gamers, and its continued presence in the game is just that - farcical.

Koryphaus
18-02-2009, 07:18
All the things (or at least many) that can still be ID'ed:
Ogryns
IG characters that didn't buy the somewhat expensive medallion crimson or have used it already.
Ork nobs and characters
Eldar farseers and autarchs.
Wraithlords
Talos
DE characters
Grotesques(?)
Ripper swarms
Nids outside synapse (yes it can happen, especially if you make it happen, though it may not be easy)
Scarab swarms
tomb spyders
necron lords
Most SM characters
Most CSM characters
Spawn (at least the CSM version?)
All tau (suits, kroot ox, shaper, ethereal)


Add to that Summoned Greater Daemons in a CSM army. They can be Force Weapon-ed, even though their cousins cannot.


The Avatar doesn't have EW :)

Really? :confused:

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-02-2009, 00:01
Really? :confused:

Eldar Codex came out before Eternal Warrior, and since it's T-more-than-5 (right?) there wasn't another way to ID it. Or something. GW's stupid.

Culven
19-02-2009, 00:12
Eldar Codex came out before Eternal Warrior, and since it's T-more-than-5 (right?) there wasn't another way to ID it. Or something. GW's stupid.
What about Wraithcannons?

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-02-2009, 00:15
Okay, they instagib Avatars too. Not too familiar with filthy xenos tech, sorry. :p

Culven
19-02-2009, 00:27
Neither am I, that is why it was a question. I don't know if they can Instagib an Avatar or, in general, any Monsterous Creatures without protection from Instant Death.

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-02-2009, 01:04
Neither am I, that is why it was a question. I don't know if they can Instagib an Avatar or, in general, any Monsterous Creatures without protection from Instant Death.

Ah. They can. Just looked it up.

Culven not knowing a rule? :wtf: What next, Calgar losing?

Culven
19-02-2009, 15:15
Sorry, I don't mean to disillusion anyine. I have simply been playing may Tau and Catachans in 5th. Neither has Force Weapons or Psychic Powers available to them, and I don't carry my GW library at all times.