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View Full Version : DOW 2 Space Marines - Any implications for the minis?



Captain Stern
17-02-2009, 23:57
Like many of us, the Relic designers have spotted how off the proportions of the space marine minis are, the same proportions they used for their space marines in DOW 1. Now for the sequel they've strayed away from the standard design, updating them so that they look more like their much cooler counterparts in the artwork.

How likely do you think it might be that GW takes notice and decides to change their long tradition of dwarf proportioned miniatues?

Triszin The Wrath God
18-02-2009, 00:08
even though we like it it wouldn't be economical, once you start to upgrade your scale everyone will have to get larger carrying cases, more paint, etc...

figure each race has its own special scale, and vehicles are never in any sort of scale.

Syaped
18-02-2009, 00:10
GW models are proportioned the way they are because they're 2inches tall. It helps give them a more powerful, sturdy look. When the model scale is larger the proportions can be made more realistic, like the Inquisitor game models. Of course it's also style decision by GW. Personally I prefer more realistic proportions but then GW would have to redo all models.

What I hate is when people interpret the miniatures as the 'true' representation of the character and then base artwork, statues, 3d models off of them. IMHO everything should be based off Karl Kopinski's artwork :D He nails it.

Gray Hunter
18-02-2009, 00:11
They won't. If made Space Marines in the 28mm scale that had "correct" proportions, they'd just look scrawny and, frankly, not at all like the powerhouse Astartes we've come to know and love. As long as 40k is in the 28mm scale, Space Marines will continue to have odd proportions. Indeed, all 40k minis have some part of their body that is out of scale, most usually the hands, because at that scale more correct proportions look weird. It's counterintuitive, but it's the way it is. Jes Goodwin talks about it a lot.

Now on the other hand, if you are working in different media (like video games) or in other scales (like Inquisitor) then I am all for having more correct proportions if that media lends itself to using them. The Inquisitor Space Marines in particular looked awesome, and much more like I image Space Marines would look, but they have different proportions to their 28mm counterparts.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch somewhat by Syaped. Curse my verbose postings!

Captain Stern
18-02-2009, 00:47
A change in proportion doesn't necessarily necessitate a change in size...

I'm not convinced about what Goodin says though (interesting to find out he's said something about it. Thanks). No matter what these people may say, the fact is they just don't look like human beings to me. Just the other day I was looking through the rumour pages and saw the primaris psyker miniature. It looked so fantastically sculpted and yet this was supposed to be a human, even though it had the proportions of a giant headed Gimli from The Lord of the Rings movies. It seemed a shame, and I've felt that way the past few years every time I've seen an awesomely sculpted miniature from GW.

The Rackham miniatures are the same scale, aren't they? Their proportions look more realistic and they also happen to look a lot better even though their subject matter sucks. How do you explain that?

JCOLL
18-02-2009, 00:58
For their purpose, I don't think there is a problem with the size differences between paintings/drawing of Space Marines to how they are represented on the table top. If they can make them look more 'releastic' in a video game, then i'm all for it! From what I've seen so far, they look fantastic! I don't really want my minis to change. For what they are they look great. I have more concerns than hands and heads being the wrong size; I have enough trouble painting 100 Orks that I have sitting about.

Captain Stern
18-02-2009, 01:03
For their purpose, I don't think there is a problem with the size differences between paintings/drawing of Space Marines to how they are represented on the table top. If they can make them look more 'releastic' in a video game, then i'm all for it! From what I've seen so far, they look fantastic! I don't really want my minis to change. For what they are they look great. I have more concerns than hands and heads being the wrong size; I have enough trouble painting 100 Orks that I have sitting about.

If we al had that attitude the miniatures would never improve! Just look at the difference in quality between the minis GW produces today and the ones of 10 years ago - the difference is huge.

I'm not an optimistic guy by nature, but somehow I can see the change happening.

loveless
18-02-2009, 02:12
Also realize that not everyone like that "true-scale" stuff.

Plus, you're expecting GW to completely redo the Space Marine range? Ha! I bet that's on the release schedule right after the Squats' 5th Edition Codex, the Tau's annexation of the Faeriesparkles race, and right before Codex: Dark Eldar.

:p

It's not happening. It's a primarily plastic range already. To redo current functional plastics instead of updating metals into plastic just isn't GW's style.

Maybe - just maybe - after every army is done in a full plastic kit from HQ to Heavy Support, GW will do resculpts of the Marines. But not anytime soon.

Relic's marines are just as indicative of new models as the cover of Black Library releases. Last I checked, we didn't have a slew of pre-Heresy Marines filling the shelves.

Captain Stern
18-02-2009, 03:12
Well, it happened with 3rd edition. They redid the entire space marine range. It actually really does seem like yesterday (but then I'm almost 26 and I've felt no different since I was 18).

On reflection though I don't really see it happening either. I told you I'm not optimistic. Shame though.


P.S.

GW aren't known for their dedication to fleshing out the less popular ranges. You should have heard the howls of rage when the new space marines started coming out month after month, then the orks and the Eldar, all of them before the sad cases (I forget which armies they were) with their armies who had been waiting their turn for so long!

loveless
18-02-2009, 04:32
Oh, I've been around for awhile - I've heard all kinds of howling from both 40K players and Fantasy players. LotR players...not so much. Go figure.

But yeah - a "true-scale" shift would cause more trouble than just redoing the SM range in the long run.

X-Porter
18-02-2009, 06:10
Wait... what's happening to my Faeriesparkles army? :eek:

GodofWarTx
18-02-2009, 06:32
Relic also made marine squads a whopping 3-marines strong, and i sure wouldnt want to see that come to the tabletop.

decker_cky
18-02-2009, 06:55
No matter what these people may say, the fact is they just don't look like human beings to me. Just the other day I was looking through the rumour pages and saw the primaris psyker miniature. It looked so fantastically sculpted and yet this was supposed to be a human, even though it had the proportions of a giant headed Gimli from The Lord of the Rings movies. It seemed a shame, and I've felt that way the past few years every time I've seen an awesomely sculpted miniature from GW.

Bad example. Psykers are mutants, and they're supposed to have huge out of proportion heads.

Hellebore
18-02-2009, 08:21
The shift from 2nd to 3rd was a whole paradigm of difference where models were even smaller than they are now and were mostly metal. Redoing millions of dollars worth of steel injection molds I doubt is very cost effective.

From my perspective, everything SHOULD be in scale, I don't care whether it's supposed to look less realistic or not. I much prefer the LotR models because of this. Everything is nicely proportioned, weapons aren't 7 feet long and 1 foot wide.

However, if they changed the scales, they would need to do it for everything. I just think it would be prohibitively expensive. The rules may have to change as well, in order to better represent the models' appearance. GW may want marines to be smaller than normal so they can sell more of them. They can't make much money out of an army composed of 30 models, with marines in squads of 3.

But, for argument's sake, how big would things actually BE if they were the right scale? Well, assuming the average human (Cadian) is the base scale at 6'@28mm (1'=4.7mm):

Marines: ~7'6"-8' so 35.25mm-37.6mm
Tau: ~5'-5'6" so 23.5mm-25.85mm
Eldar: ~6'6"-7' so 30.55mm-32.9mm
Warboss: ~10' so 47mm
Terminator: 8'6"-9' so 39.95mm-42.3mm
Crisis Suit: 9'6"-10' so 44.65mm-47mm (Crisis Suits and Terminators are virtually the same size. This is because Tau are smaller than they appear and a crisis suit is close to 2x the size of a normal tau - heights given in IA3 are ~2.8-2.9 metres tall).

etc

Attached is a rough scale comparison where the models have just been enlarged or reduced to the corresponding heights. Within that size hands, heads etc will need to be scaled.

But the models will change drastically in proportion to each other.

So although I would much prefer it, I highly doubt it will ever happen. Unless the cost of injections moulds goes down by a large amount.

Hellebore

captain_karlsen
18-02-2009, 09:48
re: the scales pdf

is it me, or is that just the strangest usual suspects parody ever?

Sideros Peltarion
18-02-2009, 10:02
Blooming heck! I didn't realise Ork Warbosses were THAT big! They would need monstrous creature status if they made it true scale.
:eek:

Hellebore
18-02-2009, 10:32
Which is also the size of ogryns, tyranid warriors, wraithguard etc. Marines may be teh Awesums for being 7-8 feet tall, but there are ALOT of things taller than them.

What I always found amusing though was the Crisis suit. This mecha machine that tau pilot is only the size of a Terminator because compared to a marine, tau are tiny.

Corrode
18-02-2009, 10:33
Yeah, it's not as easy to see with the current scaling fudges, but if you just compare the size of a normal Ork (who supposedly is pretty massive himself) to the relative size of the Warboss, you can see they're supposed to be insanely huge.

e:fb

zoggin-eck
18-02-2009, 11:19
I'm actually happy with the current scale of figures used. I agree with Goodwin's opinion of the models looking odd at 28mm with realistic proportions.

To me, it's the same with other scales. Inquisitor looked sweet, but I really am not a fan of Lord of the Rings mostly for that reason. 15mm historicals look beeter "out of proportion" rather than realistic to my eye too.

That's the reason I really don't like Forgeworlds epic Tau and Daemonhunters. They've kept realistic proportions at 6mm scale, which is dead boring to paint and looks ordinary at range. 10mm warmaster stuff is great fun to paint too

Games Workshop and many other companies have gone this far with their current scales, I don't imagine them changing it now.


Also realize that not everyone like that "true-scale" stuff.



Exactly, they would need to be pretty sure that at least most of their customers would actually prefer a shift.

As for the original post, I don't think it's so much the Relic designers and others "spotting" the out of scale-ness, more GW making it so obvious on purpose!

Starchild
18-02-2009, 16:14
The issue is not that the Space Marines are too small. The issue is that GW made the other models too big. So sayeth Jes G., anyway. :(

Xelloss
18-02-2009, 16:37
The issue is not that the Space Marines are too small. The issue is that GW made the other models too big.

I totally agree. Orks are massive, eldars are tall, SM are big. Humans should have been much smaller.

Johnnyfrej
18-02-2009, 17:26
This looks pretty true to scale to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbjbbzOrCIg

Dangersaurus
18-02-2009, 19:52
Like many of us, the Relic designers have spotted how off the proportions of the space marine minis are, the same proportions they used for their space marines in DOW 1. Now for the sequel they've strayed away from the standard design, updating them so that they look more like their much cooler counterparts in the artwork.

How likely do you think it might be that GW takes notice and decides to change their long tradition of dwarf proportioned miniatues?

Did comic books start featuring characters with correct proportions when comic book movies started getting big?

I'd guess no. As with comic book characters, the proportions of GW figures are part of their success.

Grimbad
19-02-2009, 01:18
Isn't the mm scale measured to the eyes? I was under the impression that this came from historical models, where many have ridiculous hats but all should be about the same size.

Leftenant Gashrog
19-02-2009, 01:33
Isn't the mm scale measured to the eyes? I was under the impression that this came from historical models, where many have ridiculous hats but all should be about the same size.

Depends on the company in question, unless I'm mistaken thats how 28mm came about as a scale: it started out as 25mm foot to top of head, then companies started doing 25mm foot to eye, but some people kept measuring to the top of the head.