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View Full Version : Can a char on a steed join a unit on foot?



XXL
18-02-2009, 01:54
Can a char on a steed join a unit on foot? :) dumb question but.....

Sifal
18-02-2009, 01:58
yes so long as the model can't fly. They count for as many models as they take up the space for in terms of working out ranks as well.....

EldarBishop
18-02-2009, 02:00
Yes they can, unless they fly.

See the most recent FAQ (part 2, Fb 2009) for examples and suggestions on how to do this.

XXL
18-02-2009, 02:06
As they are not large targets they then benefit from the look out sir rule and can normally not be targeted by normal shoting? ty vm btw:)

Surgency
18-02-2009, 02:16
yes so long as the model can't fly. They count for as many models as they take up the space for in terms of working out ranks as well.....

So here's another question... Say you have a mounted character, in a less than 10 strong unit, how many models does he take up?

GGSGG
GGSG

or

GGSGG
GGS

Neckutter
18-02-2009, 02:20
he should take the place of 2 infantry models, regardless if he is with 20mm models, or 25mm models since he is US2 and he is on a 25x50 base.

some people say that with 20mm models he takes up the space of 2.5 models and round up to complete rank bonuses, but i dont see it that way. otherwise a 25x50mm models would displace 6 20mm infantry models, and that just isnt correct, and cannot be a fair assumption. the FAQ i dont think specifically covers 25x50mm horse riding characters in units of 20mm infantry.

as far as a model being able to fly or not; a model can fly and join a unit. like the vampiric power of flight, or Valkia from WoC. the problem is that you cant be riding a flier in order to join a unit.

XXL
18-02-2009, 02:38
But what about the look out sir rule and ranged can target him, is that correct? :)

Asmodiseus
18-02-2009, 02:42
Ranged my not target him unless he is US 5 or more, same with getting a lookout sir rule.

Dragonreaver
18-02-2009, 02:53
You're correct, yes; he's not a Large Target (and his unit strength is less than five, including any mount) so as long as the unit has a US of 5 or more, he benefits from Look Out, Sir! and cannot be picked out by regular shooting.

Bear in mind though that a character mounted in a Chariot has a US of 5, and therefore can't use Look Out, Sir! and can be targeted individually. But a regular man-sized model on a regular horse-sized cavalry is fine, as his US is only 2.

XXL
18-02-2009, 02:54
Okey! ty vm... Have to buy the new book now. I think a modell of a different size could be targeted in 6th ed...

Asmodiseus
18-02-2009, 06:27
You're correct, yes; he's not a Large Target (and his unit strength is less than five, including any mount) so as long as the unit has a US of 5 or more, he benefits from Look Out, Sir! and cannot be picked out by regular shooting.


Keep in mind that if a character is in a unit with 5 MODELS it cant be picked out. The US of the unit has no bearing.

Necromancy Black
18-02-2009, 08:02
Keep in mind that if a character is in a unit with 5 MODELS it cant be picked out. The US of the unit has no bearing.

No, they can not be picked out. Hits from ranged attacks are randomised with about a 1:3 chance of hitting characters.

Models with a US > 4 can always be picked out individually.

nosferatu1001
18-02-2009, 08:27
Hits from ranged attacks are not randomised unless the unit contains less than 5 rank and file models

A unit of 5 with a champion and a character in it would therefore start randomising and could therefore hit the character. You allocate a hit (at least) to every model in the unit, and randomise what is left - this is contrary to the perception that every hit is randomised, as it is with a character on monstrous mount.

To the OP - this was a 6th ed rule where you could be picked out for being a differetn US to the unit , however now note that you can always be picked out if you are outside a unit - if the opponent can trace LOS to your base, and you are outside a unit, you can be shot. Most normally with a cannonball ;)

stripsteak
18-02-2009, 14:34
the FAQ i dont think specifically covers 25x50mm horse riding characters in units of 20mm infantry.

the FAQ covers it with the very technical term that you should "fudge" this when the bases are not a multiple. it works out as follows:
20x40 - 2x20mm, can't happen with 25mm bases since the only model using this is the dwarf lord on shield bearers
25x50 - 2x20mm(fudged), 2x25mm
40mm - 4x20mm, 4x25mm(fudged)
50mm - 4x20mm(fudged), 4x25mm
50x100- 10x20mm(half fudged), 8x25mm

Neckutter
18-02-2009, 15:40
stripsteak, it doesnt tell you which way to fudge it. it doesnt say to fudge a horse-rider(25x50mm) in a unit of 20mm infantry up to 3 models deep(20x60mm), or down to 2 models(20x40mm) deep for the purposes of completing ranks. and that is what i was saying where you quoted me.

nosferatu1001
18-02-2009, 15:45
NO, however if you are unreasonable about it I would simply remind you it is a FAQ, not an errata, so can i please play by the book rules please?

It is clear that fudged means "most sensible size" - a small / large infantry base shouldnt really change how many models you displace

Dragonreaver
18-02-2009, 16:14
Let's just clarify this, because there are several completely separate scenarios here and many people (including myself in my previous post) are getting stuff wrong:

Look Out, Sir!
Governs the ability of Warmachines and other template-based ranged weapons to target a character, requires that there are at least 5 RANK AND FILE MODELS in the unit (i.e., not including the character himself or any other characters - but including unit champions, standard bearers and musicians (don't believe me? Check BRB pg. 74, 'Characters Inside Units', first sentence)).

Regular Shooting
If the character's unit strength is less than five, and there are more than 5 RnF models in the unit, the character cannot be specifically targetted, ALL hits will hit the RnF models. No randomising or any of that crap.

If there are LESS than five RnF models in the unit, and the character is still below US5 himself, then each model takes a hit, and any left over hits are randomised.

If the character has a US of 5 or more (riding a chariot or a monstrous mount, for example), then you may either target the character or the unit freely, without randomising anything.

Necromancy Black
18-02-2009, 22:15
Look Out, Sir!
Governs the ability of Warmachines and other template-based ranged weapons to target a character, requires that there are at least 5 RANK AND FILE MODELS in the unit (i.e., not including the character himself or any other characters - but including unit champions, standard bearers and musicians (don't believe me? Check BRB pg. 74, 'Characters Inside Units', first sentence)).


Sigh, and now you've gotten something wrong yourself.

Champions count as characters for Look Out Sir!. This is clearly in the rules and the 2nd BRB FAQ comfirms this.

So if you have 2 normal models, full command and a character (6 models) you will not get a look out sir as both the champion and characters are characters, meaning there are only 4 other rank and file models left.

stripsteak
19-02-2009, 03:33
stripsteak, it doesnt tell you which way to fudge it. it doesnt say to fudge a horse-rider(25x50mm) in a unit of 20mm infantry up to 3 models deep(20x60mm), or down to 2 models(20x40mm) deep for the purposes of completing ranks. and that is what i was saying where you quoted me.

but it is also both clear on how many you displace, and also does specificaly mention cav in 20mm.
it says if putting a large model into a unit where they are multiples. those units are displaced to the rear rank, and the model counts for how many it displaces.

you can also do this if you are putting a non multiple large unit in a smaller one "the most classic case being that of a character mounted on a horse joining an infantry unit with 20mm square bases"

they then describe how you fudge it by pretending it is the same size as a single model in that unit a multiple there of. so a cav model is either going to count as 20x40, or 40x80 they never say you are allowed to change the ratio of the base which is what you would be doing if you counted it as 20x60

Neckutter
19-02-2009, 08:02
technically a 25x50mm model displaces up to 6, 20mm models then. and while it should be obvious that a 25x50mm model should be "fudged" to take up the space of 2 20mm models, the FAQ does not specifically describe what to do.

im just being devil's advocate here, but since you called my statement out, i thought i had to defend it because they didnt make it black and white. it "could" be a lil murky still, is what my comment was all about.

nosferatu1001
19-02-2009, 10:03
Well, given that they used the word fudge i think that makes it clear that they didnt think they needed to make it black and white. Especially as the number of possible combinations is quite large - you are suppose to take the most sensible answer.

"fudge" would be take the most sensible interpretation, you clot - in other words, dont take the p*ss by claiming that, just because your infantry is 20mm, you now displace 6 models and not the obvious 2. If you come up against anyone trying that, remind them it is a FAQ and you would rather play by the actual rules, in which case they count as 1 model.

They have indicated time and time again that the rules will never, ever be precise in all situations and that gaming the system to take advantage of that is strictly against the rules. If you cannot see what the obvious answer is here, then perhaps you shouldnt play. If your opponent cant see reason, then enforce the actual rules on them.

nosferatu1001
19-02-2009, 10:07
Look Out, Sir!
(don't believe me? Check BRB pg. 74, 'Characters Inside Units', first sentence)).


I already had, which is why i was very careful in what I posted. Perhaps you could have done the same? You might not have posted the incorrect rules then :rolleyes:

As has been posted - Champions, unlike musicians and standard bearers, are seperate models from RnF (which is why you must allocate agaisnt them to kill them!) and as such are excluded from the calculation of moels for determining LOS!

To arrogantly claim other people have gotten things wrong, post inaccurate rules yourself and then cite source in a frankly insulting manner is not a good thing to do ;)

Necromancy Black
19-02-2009, 10:35
As has been posted - Champions, unlike musicians and standard bearers, are seperate models from RnF (which is why you must allocate agaisnt them to kill them!) and as such are excluded from the calculation of moels for determining LOS!

To clarify it's actually because it's clearly that for Look Out Sir! they count as characters, which is why they not not counted when working out if you can make one or not.