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Sarah S
18-02-2009, 19:28
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2350036_WarriorsofChaosFAQFeb2009.pdf

It's out, and the only two answers that jump out at me for being very stupid are:

Q. If the Warshrine is destroyed or otherwise removed from play, does the last unit to be blessed by it retain the gift?
A. Yes it does, unless another Warshrine attempts to roll a better result for it.

We already know from the Warshrine rules that "it is possible for a single target to reap several rewards inthis manner during a single turn, due the effects of multiple Warshrines," so the bloody things are cumulative and don't displace one another. Why the heck would it replace the blessing of a dead one?

Stupid, stupid answer.


Q. Since remains in play spells can be ended at any time by the caster, it seems that the casting player can end Call to Glory just before taking any saves/removing the model as a casualty and thus prevent the death of the model - it ceases to be worth 100VPs as soon as the spell ends. In what circumstances can a player score 100VPs for killing an Exalted Champion created by Call to Glory?
A. It is gentlemanly (and it avoids endless arguments) to wait for the end of a phase before intentionally terminating this spell.

Write an errata for the spell. This is not a sufficient answer. "Gentlemanly" be damned.

Aside from those two, seems rather well done. The MoN problem is fixed along with most other bugbears.

kramplarv
18-02-2009, 19:36
personal favorite are the part about chaos knights. The sensible rule won. And people arguing 10 pages of how the lances were ensorcelled... hilarious when they actually thought that the game was meant to be like that...:)

Nightsword
18-02-2009, 19:39
Battle standard bearer cannot be the general, that's cleared alot up.

Sarah S
18-02-2009, 19:41
By the way, in case anyone missed it, the errata to the Mark of Nurgle makes it useless a vast majority of the time, as it only applies when the enemy is rolling to hit.

This means that unless your enemy WS3 or WS6, you will receive no benefit in combat.


When rolling to hit against a model with the Mark of Nurgle, the attacker suffers -1 to its Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill, to a minimum of 1.

Tzeentch is about a thousand times better than Nurgle now.

Arguleon-veq
18-02-2009, 19:43
So if my unit champs HAVE to issue challenges too now, they can stop my Sorcerers from having to issue a challenge by challenging first?

Pretty glad about that if so, least it makes EOTG a little less annoying. Not something I expected them to do though.

I am glad my Sorc Lord can still take his Enchanted Shield.

kramplarv
18-02-2009, 19:46
Arg: Champions could stop your sorcerers from challenging before the FAQ too. :)

to bad about the hellcannon though :(

Arguleon-veq
18-02-2009, 19:49
There were pages of arguements if they could on the Tactics and Rules boards. Glad it is cleared up though.

I still think the Cannon is a great choice, I never moved and shot with mine anyway, afterall, it was only 3'' we could have possibly moved and still shot.

Angelust
18-02-2009, 19:53
Yeah...gentlemanly....haha. I'll discuss it with my opponent, because otherwise call to glory is SUCH a waste of PD...

Neknoh
18-02-2009, 19:58
Not necessarily a thousand times, but deffinately better than it was before.

I am a happy camper with this FAQ, I am pleased with most of the answers. The only one I am annoyed at is the fact that they did NOT answer if you can use the Favour of the Gods to get a reroll, but since Duplicates are ALWAYS rerolled, even if they are a reroll, I am going to assume that altering things with the Favour does indeed allow for a reroll.

I am glad with the FAQ, always having to challenge with every model and not only those with the rule makes it a lot easier to protect characters. Furthermore, allowing champions to roll on the table made the army that bit more awesome (although we don't get to roll if we kill a champion).

Warshrines+running down large targets = full on champion rolling

decker_cky
18-02-2009, 20:00
Father of Blades on a exalted sorceror on a disc or steed of slaanesh becomes very resilient indeed.

Exalted Sorceror of Tzeentch with Golden Eye, Enchanted Shield, Father of Blades and either the spell or power familiar. 1+ armour save, 3+ ward save against missiles, 1's to hit are resolved against the bearer. The slaanesh version has less shooting protection by has 360 degree line of sight for magic.

Chosen with favour of the gods are amazing, particularly if you boost them further with a warshrine.

The forced challenge can be done with champions even if you don't have a warshrine, but they always have to challenge.

Hellcannons got the worst of all the FAQs talking about them. Half VPs for killing 2 CD. :O Limited by the movement of the slowest members of the unit except when charging. :( I'll leave these to the side and take warshrines, giants and spawn thank you very much.

Angelust
18-02-2009, 20:08
I was really hoping, personally, for champions to grant EotG. You can't say it'd overpower a chaos list.

decker_cky
18-02-2009, 20:16
No..but allowing champions to issue challenges is an even bigger improvement. Its much more than I'd hoped for.

Angelust
18-02-2009, 20:21
Yeah. I almost had Festus get killing blowed last night cuz of stupid challenge rules...

Valtiel
18-02-2009, 20:30
Q. Models that were defined as Daemonic in
the past and therefore had magical attacks,
such as Daemon Princes, Hellcannons, chaos
mounts (Juggernauts, Discs…), no longer have
magical attacks. Is this right?
A. Unlike in the Daemons of Chaos book, in
this book they do not have magical attacks,
clearly because they are so far away from the
Realm of Chaos…

This made me laugh out. It is really silly but I never expected them to get magical attacks but the explanation as to why they don't have it is silly. tongue.gif

But overall a nice faq. Surely helps us all. Now we can challenge with our Champions all the time and let our Characters crush the unit. Bloodskull Pendant has gotten good. Favour of the Gods on Chosen Champions indeed make the unit slightly more interesting.

I am pretty satisfied with this. happy.gif

These are my feelings about the FAQ, taken from the Chamber of the Everchosen. Surely with the fixing of the challenges I really think this army has become better just by that and less irritating.

Deacon Bane
18-02-2009, 20:56
Yep, the Cannon got screwed. 103 VP for killing 2 CD?:wtf: The no move and fire was neither here or there, but now in CC the Dwarfs are a liability. For that many VP they should have added benefits. Oh well, guess it is back on the shelf for this cool model and I will add another Sorceror.

decker_cky
18-02-2009, 20:59
Agreed. Chosen also become the most entertaining army to field. By always adjusting, on the start of the game roll...you stand a very good chance of getting the A level benefits (+T, +ST, +A, 4+ ward and stubborn). All in all....the FAQ made the army more interesting.

Neknoh
18-02-2009, 21:01
Unfortunately yes, shooting at the Large Target Hellcannon is now almost a guaranteed 103 VP's from enough randomized shots. I thought Monsters and Halnders ignored the handlers for Half strength :mad:

Anywho, that's only a minor setback after all, sure, it's 103 VP's, the Hellcannon is likely to kill that many points with a single hit against most units out there. Failing that, eating something big and tasty is always a bonus, really, getting the other half of those points is nigh impossible.

TheDarkDuke
18-02-2009, 21:19
im still scratching my head on the necrotic phylastic (or what ever its called) errata.... how can you be immune to one lore of nurgle but not the others?
still hate the whole have to challenge thing regardless if champions can challenge. sadly i think ill keep my WoC on hold not impressed with the book or this errata which is a shame since i used to like chaos.

The Red Scourge
18-02-2009, 21:22
Didn't expect sorcerors to keep their shields (funny that they're too posh to wear mundane shields).

And I was 50-50 on the BSB thing. The hellcannon is a bit of a disappointment, but so has all rare slots been for WoC.

First FAQ that didn't make me roll my eyes or shake my head. It even answered the most common questions.

Surely a sign of the end days ;)

mrtn
18-02-2009, 21:23
Lots of good answers in this one.
:)

loveless
18-02-2009, 21:49
That's...actually a pretty decent FAQ. At least GW can make Fantasy FAQs that answer questions instead of just wasting digital storage.

The Hellcannon parts are just depressing (and potentially contradictory - I must read the section on Monsters & Handlers again), but the rest isn't bad.

Bac5665
18-02-2009, 21:51
I don't quite understand the MoN errata. The part in red is the change right? Cause the whole part listed is quite different from what I have written in my WoC book.

On the whole the FAQ was fine, and resolved some important things (Hellcannons) though as usual, there were far too many WTF answers, but I'm used to that by now.

theunwantedbeing
18-02-2009, 22:01
The monster and handler rules thing for the hellcannon about killing crew....actually its correct!!!!
I was rather surprised....

Although no getting half VP for killing hydra handlers :D
They have a rule exempting them from giving up VP.

So this is just a bit of a nerf for the hellcannon...poor hellcannon.

sulla
18-02-2009, 22:01
Bizarre that the hellcannon obeys many war machine rules but it's rate of fire is not reduced by crew casualties...

The mark of nurgle rewrite seems quite a nerf though. Although, seeing as having a tiny fly covered guy on a dragon makes it significantly harder to hit, I suppose the nerf is not too bad.

All-in-all, a pretty good FAQ.

Malorian
18-02-2009, 22:04
I've always played that when my salamanders lost their handlers (over half the models) that they gave up halve VPs. Don't see why this is a surprise for the hellcannon.

Either is was a warmachine so killing the crew got you full VPs, or it's a monster with handlers so killing the handlers got you half VPs. Think of how mad you all would have been if they would have treated it as a warmachine ;)


Also could someone explain to me why that is a nerf for Nurgle? As that's how I thought I read it before...

loveless
18-02-2009, 22:38
Ahh, I'm so used to Hydras being the only M&H unit I've seen that I didn't realize they had an exception :o Silly me. Nothing new then, really, just didn't click in my head.

Reinnon
18-02-2009, 23:04
At least they answered the suneater questions... i think we can all breath a sigh of relief right there.

Dooks Dizzo
18-02-2009, 23:05
This means that unless your enemy WS3 or WS6, you will receive no benefit in combat.Need to go easy there Sarah.

Which units are we talking about?

WS5 warriors gain a benefit against WS3, WS5 and WS6
WS6 chosen gain a benefit against WS3 and WS6 and WS7
WS7 characters and such gain a benefit against WS4 and WS7 and WS8

It does come up plenty enough and the unit with the most benefit is also the most common. In some cases it's a defensive bonus and in others its an offensive bonus and is is always a bonus against shooting unless the shooter is BS9 or so.

Neknoh
18-02-2009, 23:06
Only when the unit rolls to hit the MoN models, not the other way around, as such, no bonus for equal weaponskill

decker_cky
18-02-2009, 23:21
So it gets reigned back from being the odds on best choice to being a solid choice. Seems fair. I wouldn't bother on chosen, but the improvement against wardancers, swordmasters and hero level characters is still worth it for warriors. Drops carnosaurs and saurus to hitting on a 5+ too.

Necromancy Black
18-02-2009, 23:24
Glad they cleared up the main points, ie EotG and Lances on Knights. FFS though, if that had jsut put the rule about always issuing a challange with the Will of Choas, you know, the rule everyone has, everyone would have been clear on the rule and happy with it from the start.

Also glad that MoN can't reduce WS below 1 (go zombies!!! :p ) and you can not re-roll results of "The Eye is Closed" unless of corse you have a rule to reroll EotG in general.

Neckutter
18-02-2009, 23:27
my thoughts:
MoN: the rewrite nerfs MoN bad, but at least it is more concise than the last wording.
Book of Secrets: ok, wtf. a wizard can have duplicate spells? give me a break. im alright with the "exchange it for the level 1 spell" though.
EotG: um champions must challenge? lame! but as i always look at the silver lining, i guess it means unit champs can challenge before my chaos sorcs do.
festus doesnt wear chaos armor? lame..
necrotic phyletric thing: immune to WoC nurgle, but not ALL lores of Nurgle? clearly stupid and unuseful.
hellcannon: crew count, even though it is monster and handlers... so they should count? super lame.
call to glory: um, ok what the hell. "ungentlemanly"? thats pretty lame. it should really just say it cant be done, since it is a cop-out anyways.
father of blades: um, wow. a non-ranged weapon that works against shooting? i guess....

:)

Neknoh
18-02-2009, 23:31
Call to Glory basically says "yes, you can do it, but if you do it, people might throw random metal models at your face"

It's essentially an "ok" to do it for tournament goers who don't care about sportsmanship scores and a command to deck the sportsmanship of people doing it.

Necromancy Black
18-02-2009, 23:37
Call to Glory basically says "yes, you can do it, but if you do it, people might throw random metal models at your face"


And they may not belong to the player throwing them at you.

Basically I find it a good reason to hold the BRB hard cover in my hands, look my oppanant in the eye and say "That's ungentlemanly..." for any number of things. Oh look, 2 Steam Tanks....

Colfax
18-02-2009, 23:47
The part about the Book of Secrets and choosing the same lore and actually allowing the Sorc to have a duplicate spell seems odd. Though, having a duplicate of Doom and Darkness or Soul Stealer might be fun.

Mireadur
18-02-2009, 23:50
Call to Glory basically says "yes, you can do it, but if you do it, people might throw random metal models at your face"

It's essentially an "ok" to do it for tournament goers who don't care about sportsmanship scores and a command to deck the sportsmanship of people doing it.

No, it says that you cant do it. It's just that they arent lame retards who cant read between lines (this not goes for you, but for those people who would still drop the spell b4 receiving the attacks).

In the same way the answer about daemon princes not having magical attacks should be taken as it is: a sarcastic and auto-critical way to express that they know it makes not much sense but thats how you should do it.

Nice FAQ imho. Just to express my little ''but's'' i guess the phylactery answer is the most strange of all. I would have liked the cannon could move n' shoot, that killing champions would award EOTG rolls and that you wouldnt lose the replaced model after dropping a call to glory but, oh well, i can live with the way it is :)

Anyway im just surprised at the great coherency they deal with some FAQ's while still allowing going wild with other armies like if the advantages given in the armybook werent enough (im looking at you DE).

Neknoh
18-02-2009, 23:56
I would say it is the opposite, they say "you can do it, but only douches would", at least that is how I read it. You seem to read it "you can't do it but douches might try".

Neckutter
19-02-2009, 00:00
Anyway im just surprised at the great coherency they deal with some FAQ's while still allowing going wild with other armies like if the advantages given in the armybook werent enough (im looking at you DE).

for reals. they gave DE all they wanted and more. except for the lifetaker, which is a huge :wtf:

yeah, i read the chaos glory thing to say "you can do it, but youre a huge tool if you do"

Arguleon-veq
19-02-2009, 00:15
I wouldnt care at all at people using Call to Glory like that against me, it is the only way the spell is worth it. IMO it just makes it an average and usable spell as opposed to a totally useless one. Plus it isnt like its all reward no risk, if its your turn do you risk rolling your armour saves and risking him dying but being able to fight in the enemy turn or forcing him to use power dice to dispell it?

Odin
19-02-2009, 00:18
Not necessarily a thousand times, but deffinately better than it was before.

I am a happy camper with this FAQ, I am pleased with most of the answers. The only one I am annoyed at is the fact that they did NOT answer if you can use the Favour of the Gods to get a reroll, but since Duplicates are ALWAYS rerolled, even if they are a reroll, I am going to assume that altering things with the Favour does indeed allow for a reroll.

I am glad with the FAQ, always having to challenge with every model and not only those with the rule makes it a lot easier to protect characters. Furthermore, allowing champions to roll on the table made the army that bit more awesome (although we don't get to roll if we kill a champion).

Warshrines+running down large targets = full on champion rolling

I think you may have misread that.

It specifically states that unit Champions do not roll on the EotG table (unless there is a Warshrine).

Also, very bizarre that unit champions do have to issue a challenge if they are able to, but can refuse a challenge. That just doesn't make sense.

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 00:18
well, that depends, a level four undivided with the Book and Lore of Shadows allong with two level two sorcerors of Tzeentch (one with a spell familliar) could feasibly be looking at catapulting Exalted Champions left and right into support units and similar.

Heck, it's something I need to try, two casts of Steed of Shadows a turn could actually turn out to be VERY useful


EDIT: That I know

The questions that were currently brewing was however IF unit champions would get to roll on the table EVEN if there was a Warshrine on the table since some insidious rules lawyers kept pointing their finger at "whenever a chaos character kills", however, that has, finally, been cleared, which is what I am glad for.

snyggejygge
19-02-2009, 00:21
I think it cleared up a lot of things, but it didn't really help the WoC book to get more competitive, but now champions fulfill something once more & the Helm of Many Eyes does look more attractive, no more just killing a lone champ.

Word of Agony & assassins having to roll which goes first (reveal or attack) implies that it does happen before challenges are made (since you can challenge an assassin the same round it is revealed), so at least that works like I want it to.

Some questions seemed pretty stupid & some answers were answered in a stupid or silly way (why is our daemons further away from the Realm of Chaos than those in the DoC book, what if we face daemons, then they should lose magical attacks or we gain it, we are after all the same distance away from the realm of Chaos).

Mark of Nurgle is a little worse, but not by much.

They made the lance upgrade useless, they had a chance to make it worthwhile (by allowing us to keep the ensorcelled weapons after the charge), but now we lose S in any prolonged combat (which is more common today considering VC & DoC being top tier armies) & at the same time lose the magical attack ability & they want us to pay 5 pts per model for this!

Shamfrit
19-02-2009, 00:24
They're bravado enough to go 'Oy, come get some!' but at the same time arn't mad enough or egotistical enough yet to not go 'err, actually mate, see my mate Tim here? Hit HIM not me! *Skarper.*'

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 00:31
Considering the jump from strength 5 to 6 means that you:

Wound T4 on a 2+ (i.e. heroes and some lords, elite infantry akin to plaguebearers, grave guard, tomb guard, chaos warriors etc. Almost anything Ogre Sized etc) and reduce armoursaves by -3 (completely negating 4+ saves and severly hampering 3+ saves).

Not to mention it wounds T6 (i.e. Dragons, Giants etc.) on a 4+ rather than a 5+ AND it removes or nearly removes armoursaves such as Obsidian Armour, Dragon Scaly Skin etc.

I would say that it is still a viable option, mass-wounding enemies is always good, especially when khornate and hitting T6 enemies. 3 wounds on a T6 enemy is actually rather good from 4 knights, and that's before the horsies hit (another wound or close to it at least). That is half a dragon dead for a handful of less points.

Let's be frank, a dragon charging would have been a LOT less scary if it was strength 5 rather than strength 6, furthermore, magical attacks are actually getting more useless as the books progress, what is it good to use against? Malekith, Ethereal and Forest Spirits? If you are lamenting the "crappyness" of lances, I assume you don't take multiple units of Knights. Two units of Knights where one has lances can actually be a fully viable choice in an army. I mean, there is a reason cauldron+banner on coldone Knights is pretty darn good.... and that's with a Worse armoursave, lower toughness AND stupidity for a combined points value of way more. Why is this strength 6 on the charge with 2-3 attacks per knights (not including mounts) suddenly a BAD thing?

Odin
19-02-2009, 00:40
The questions that were currently brewing was however IF unit champions would get to roll on the table EVEN if there was a Warshrine on the table since some insidious rules lawyers kept pointing their finger at "whenever a chaos character kills", however, that has, finally, been cleared, which is what I am glad for.

Ah, I see. I'm glad I don't play against people like that. :rolleyes:

Similarly, I'm pleased to see the end of that whole nonsense about daemon princes getting chaos armour with their magic levels, and sorcerers not having magic shields despite it saying so. I really don't see how anyone could have argued that in the first place.

Harwammer
19-02-2009, 01:42
I was really suprised when they said champions aren't characters but then allowed (warshrine) champions EoTG rolls (something that explicitly only characters have access to).

Really it should have been ruled either champions both give/recieve rolls OR champions neither give/recieve rolls. Anything else is inconsistent.

Still, WoC really needed a FAQ; the release version of the book was a joke.

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 01:44
.... See what I mean Odin?

EDIT: He might not be an insidious rules-lawyer, but he is pointing right at the thing I was talking about

decker_cky
19-02-2009, 01:54
Consistency be damned. It's ruled the way it's ruled and that's the way it works. :)

I'm just happy they covered enough that you aren't going to have EotG arguments against every other person you play. :D

Warboss Antoni
19-02-2009, 03:37
Not much here. Just some random answers in true, GW, RAW style. They're hardly any real changes - just RAW answers ( like the Hellcannon or the lances ). And they nerfed the MoN to oblivion - it still has it's uses, but for 10 pts, not 30.

But I'm just majorally pissed that my mark was completely ****ed. Worst in the last book, worst now. At least we have the best lore...

EDIT: sorry if it sounds like I'm ranting. But take a look at warroirs/knights. Putting the MoN means nothing except at WS 2 or 10. At least chosen are hit on 5s by regular rank and file, but then something went wrong didn't it?

Kerill
19-02-2009, 04:31
Not much here. Just some random answers in true, GW, RAW style. They're hardly any real changes - just RAW answers ( like the Hellcannon or the lances ). And they nerfed the MoN to oblivion - it still has it's uses, but for 10 pts, not 30.

But I'm just majorally pissed that my mark was completely ****ed. Worst in the last book, worst now. At least we have the best lore...

EDIT: sorry if it sounds like I'm ranting. But take a look at warroirs/knights. Putting the MoN means nothing except at WS 2 or 10. At least chosen are hit on 5s by regular rank and file, but then something went wrong didn't it?

It means a lot at Ws3 and 6

The new lizardmen get absolutely shafted by the mark of nurgle.

decker_cky
19-02-2009, 05:18
MoN is worth it for the shooting protection alone. Anything in combat is worth it.

The Red Scourge
19-02-2009, 05:39
...If you are lamenting the "crappyness" of lances...

Then don't take lances. S5 and magical attacks is great against most things, and when you really need to hit stuff hard, you use dragon ogres. Dragon ogres can deliver 9 S7 attacks over a 40mm frontage.

You've got two 'heavy cavalry' units, you might as well put them to good use and get some of that monstrous chaos feel to your army :)

Axis
19-02-2009, 05:55
By the way, in case anyone missed it, the errata to the Mark of Nurgle makes it useless a vast majority of the time, as it only applies when the enemy is rolling to hit.

This means that unless your enemy WS3 or WS6, you will receive no benefit in combat.



Tzeentch is about a thousand times better than Nurgle now.

Well with a WS7 character it does mean that WS4 people hit it on 5's.

Kerill
19-02-2009, 05:58
Lances for chaos knights are pretty crap TBH, but who cares, ensorcelled weapons, fear and a 40 point price tag means chaos knights are great.

Generally happy with the FAQ, makes chosen and warriors more viable and, most importantly, challenging with a champion makes a huge difference to the survivability of mages and bsbs in units when you get the charge/second round if charged and means fighty characters in units can actually slay rank and file instead of wasting attacks on the enemy unit champion. It also means you can avoid the pendant and speculum if you get the charge which is also very nice. Enchanted shield is back for sorcerers which is also very cool.

MON got nerfed a bit but since up to now it had been clearly the best that's probably fair enough.

Djekar
19-02-2009, 06:43
I'm really impressed with this errata for the most part. There were some questions that they answered that the errata (Ex. - errata to the Knights lances and then they waste space FAQ'ing the question later), but overall pretty good. I disagree with their justifications for many things, but I'll grin and bear it.

'd just like to point out that I was right about EotG making every model that can challange do so (I've been playing it that way), which makes the DP a little worse, but does save our fighty characters.

On a much less fun note, I was totally wrong about the Hellcannon, but such is the price of faith in the capricious Chaos Gods. Le Sigh

~Stool

ChaosVC
19-02-2009, 06:59
"Haha!" *Jump out with a swash buckler stance!* They still didn't solve double infernal puppet, they only solve infernal puppet one the first time both are used, what about subsequent turns?! "haha" *jump away*

TroyJPerez
19-02-2009, 07:20
I was kinda suprised to see the FAQ for: Are daemons Princes that are given magic levels equipped with chaos armour? Was this question really needed?

The Red Scourge
19-02-2009, 08:21
"Haha!" *Jump out with a swash buckler stance!* They still didn't solve double infernal puppet, they only solve infernal puppet one the first time both are used, what about subsequent turns?! "haha" *jump away*

On subsequent turns. One player miscasts, one player declares his puppet use, and the second player then declares his puppet use.

If you can't settle the argument peacefully, or the game devolves into a "I INFERNAL PUPPET FIRST!!!" shouting contest, just dice off and have done with it.

If this makes someone cry, then be a gentleman and have them go first :)

Djekar
19-02-2009, 08:28
Oh god, the "gentleman" rule again! ;)

Neckutter
19-02-2009, 08:43
Oh god, the "gentleman" rule again! ;)

since when are Chaos players considered "gentlemen"??

:)

bosstroll
19-02-2009, 09:25
Considering the jump from strength 5 to 6 means that you:
<snip>

Considering its 5p/model, its a worthless upgrade.

Weemo
19-02-2009, 09:32
Although no getting half VP for killing hydra handlers :D
They have a rule exempting them from giving up VP.

just another reason to make hydra's even more dirty ... stupid 175 mosnter bah humbug

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 09:52
Considering its 5p/model, its a worthless upgrade.

A very intelligent argument there good sir, you utterly thwarted my post by proving your superior standpoint with a remarkably excellent use of the english language.

Some real justification perhaps? I gave perfectly good reasons for people that want to take Lances to do so, the upgrade IS relatively fairly costed considering the rest of the stats of the unit at hand.

W0lf
19-02-2009, 10:25
TBh expected everything there except unit champs having to challenge which is a blessing. Stops my sorc's dieing.


Q. Can a Chaos Sorcerer or Sorcerer Lord use
magical shields?
A. Yes, they can. This is an exception to the
normal rules, and it is specified on page 106,
Using Chaos Magic, second paragraph.

W0lf 1, Gaming group 0.

Hate to say i told you so :P


Book of secrets clear-up was interesting aswell. Can cast same spell twice? So who else is praying for 2S6 S4 twice?

Alathir
19-02-2009, 11:02
Nice faq.

One thing that irked me however... does anyone else think its ridiculous that you can declare you are using the puppet, see the result and then just say you arent going to accept it?

Surely if you roll the dice then you've resigned to whatever fate befalls you!

Von Wibble
19-02-2009, 11:07
Hmmmm - it still doesn't answer whether or not Daemon princes can take "Sorceror only" items. Yet it states that champions can challenge, which has always been the rule (just because something has to challenge doesn't mean another model can't challenge first). What is the answer to my first question?

Also, on Word of Agaony vs assassin - if word of agony were to go first, could it hit the assassin (if it distributes as missile then assume the unit is down to US5)? If the assassin isn't revealed yet then surely the answer is no, but I want to check this as a DE player.

Shamfrit
19-02-2009, 11:08
No, not really, since you can modify it by up to D3. You roll, see what options are available, then pick which one suits you best, sometimes the one they rolled might work out better.

Alathir
19-02-2009, 11:31
No, not really, since you can modify it by up to D3. You roll, see what options are available, then pick which one suits you best, sometimes the one they rolled might work out better.

Bah! Where's the chaos in that...

Shamfrit
19-02-2009, 11:38
Next time your opponent loses his mage due to the puppet ask yourself the same question.

phoenixlaw
19-02-2009, 11:52
Hmmmm - it still doesn't answer whether or not Daemon princes can take "Sorceror only" items. Yet it states that champions can challenge, which has always been the rule (just because something has to challenge doesn't mean another model can't challenge first). What is the answer to my first question?

Also, on Word of Agaony vs assassin - if word of agony were to go first, could it hit the assassin (if it distributes as missile then assume the unit is down to US5)? If the assassin isn't revealed yet then surely the answer is no, but I want to check this as a DE player.


Daemon princes cant take any items last time i checked.

word of agony can't hit an assassin unless he's been revealed. That was the point of the question.

Dareus
19-02-2009, 12:18
word of agony can't hit an assassin unless he's been revealed. That was the point of the question.

Actually we figured out earlier that Word of Agony can never hit an Assassin as long as he simply is revealed not in BtB with the WoA-User but somewhere else in the battle line. And the challenge happens after WoA is used ...
There are some other things that are really strange in this text. Although after being really shocked about some answers I tend to be only mildly disappointed now after reconsidering it.
EotG stays a dud or better a disadvantage but champions being able to bear the necessity of challenging makes it a lot less crippling.

All in all I can live with it. Some of the answers even turned out to be positive for WoC.:p

Dareus

Fredmans
19-02-2009, 12:44
I am with Odin on this one. What does it mean that champions must challenge, but also can refuse a challenge?

"Daemon princes cant take any items last time i checked."

I think the poster means the gifts that say sorceres only.

"was kinda suprised to see the FAQ for: Are daemons Princes that are given magic levels equipped with chaos armour? Was this question really needed?"

This was part of the quite heated debate on whether sorcerors could be equipped with enchanted shield. So, yes, it was necessary.

/Fredmans

SPYDER68
19-02-2009, 14:43
So mark of Nurgle isnt a flat out -1 to hit with ranged and melee attacks now ?

EvC
19-02-2009, 14:54
Almost: it's -1WS and BS. So TK Archers hit on 6s for once, lol.

IronNerd
19-02-2009, 15:05
It's already been lamented over, but I have to do it too. I'm just starting out in Fantasy, using a mono-Nurgle army (because I WANT to)... this sucks. I haven't had enough experience to know exactly how big this nerf is, but it sucks regardless. I'm going to go crawl into a corner and weep softly now...

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 15:07
It makes Nurgle the average mark, you no longer reduce WS4 troops to being hit on a 3+ by your Marauders. Really, it's not a lot more than that.

loveless
19-02-2009, 15:10
It's already been lamented over, but I have to do it too. I'm just starting out in Fantasy, using a mono-Nurgle army (because I WANT to)... this sucks. I haven't had enough experience to know exactly how big this nerf is, but it sucks regardless. I'm going to go crawl into a corner and weep softly now...

I don't think it's nearly as big of a nerf as people are making it out to be. Nurgle anything is still highly defensive - your units are just as hard to shoot, which is (imo) a bigger deal than having an easier time hitting in combat.

I've always seen the benefit of Nurgle (in this book) to be getting you across the board easier - not to mention giving you a Grade A Magic Lore ;)

eagletsi1
19-02-2009, 15:35
EVC: I think your wrong about TK Archers, I'm pretty sure they always hit on a 5+ no matter what their BS or modifiers.

Bac5665
19-02-2009, 16:08
EvC is correct. TK don't care about any modifiers to hit, not that they always hit on 5s. Changing their BS isn't a modifier to hit, its a stat change and thus takes effect.

Disclaimer:
I don't have my book in front of me, and want to disclose that now, before I put my foot in my mouth yet another time by posting rules in the morning.

BenTheRat
19-02-2009, 16:24
I am the one who rules lawyered up the "only characters roll" bit. The whole reason was because people were throwing the only killing "characters" bit and saying by RAW no champs.

So by RAW no champs. In hopes GW would realize they screwed up the wording and allow champs to count. And got the question submitted by direwolf to begin with. Not 100% happy with the answer, but glad they settled it. Now we can move on.

Total Nerf on the MoN. A character in a unit, it is worthless 20 points. Only works if a WS4 or WS8 guy is targeting you. Definitely not worth the 20. 10 maybe.

Thought most of the rest of the questions, except the obvious blunders (warshrine, must challenge but may refuse, etc...) was pretty good.

Hate the poor sportsman answer. Or the "Ah,ha" answers. Come on, just rule it and lets move on.

I've always played my puppet as adjust by 0,1,2 or 3 (depending on what I rolled 1-3). And several times I opted not to use it. He rolls an '8' on the miscast table. I roll my d3 and get a 1. Do I make it a '7' or '9'??
It was answered correctly.

Overall, I do have to say a good FAQ. I expect them to fix a couple things in the 2-3 weeks, it will be revised with a couple corrections. But glad it came out quickly.

The Rat
Rules Lawyer on the Boards, so I don't have to in a game.

Tae
19-02-2009, 16:31
my thoughts:
Book of Secrets: ok, wtf. a wizard can have duplicate spells? give me a break. im alright with the "exchange it for the level 1 spell" though.
EotG: um champions must challenge? lame! but as i always look at the silver lining, i guess it means unit champs can challenge before my chaos sorcs do.
necrotic phyletric thing: immune to WoC nurgle, but not ALL lores of Nurgle? clearly stupid and unuseful.
call to glory: um, ok what the hell. "ungentlemanly"? thats pretty lame. it should really just say it cant be done, since it is a cop-out anyways.
father of blades: um, wow. a non-ranged weapon that works against shooting?

:)

I would agree with most of the things here.

imo they should have allowed enemy champions to count for EotG roll (in the original book, mind, not the FAQ - as the FAQ is correct RAW) and that they should have just sucked it up and said it was a badly worded spell for Call to Glory and re-written it so that such 'ungentlemanly' actions couldn't be taken.

wizuriel
19-02-2009, 17:28
I'm dissapointed champions don't get you a roll on the EOTG table. As it is right now I find the table very rarly gets rolled in actual games.

Mireadur
19-02-2009, 17:48
Not much here. Just some random answers in true, GW, RAW style. They're hardly any real changes - just RAW answers ( like the Hellcannon or the lances ). And they nerfed the MoN to oblivion - it still has it's uses, but for 10 pts, not 30.



Regular magical items (affecting whole units) which give -1 to be hit from ranged weapons are 30 points, you also get the small melee buff for the same price (although i agree it now has quite limited uses in CC).

Shamfrit
19-02-2009, 18:48
Let's not forget you're immune to Pestilens Toughness tests, and you can take the Festering Shroud.

Kadrium
19-02-2009, 18:53
It was really nice to have Ogres of Nurgle hit WS3 troops on 3+, and not be hit by WS4 troops on 3+. I fielded Nurgle Ogres a lot, and the Nurgle change hits them pretty hard.

Sarah S
19-02-2009, 19:12
Let's not forget you're immune to Pestilens Toughness tests,

Not immunity, just decreased vulnerability. The Mark of Nurgle makes them fail on 6's instead of 5's and 6's.

Overall the Mark of Tzeentch will provide 2-3 times as much protection over the course of game (including magic, cannons, stone throwers and combat with enemies that aren't at one of the "magic" WS breakpoints) for 2/3 of the cost of the Mark of Nurgle.

It is by far a garbage choice.

Shamfrit
19-02-2009, 19:45
You're forgetting that the Mark of Tzeentch either increases an existing ward save, note, an, not all saves, or, in the absence of a Ward Save, gives a plain up 6+...

If you want to consider the Mark of Tzeentch for Marauders/Warriors etc, great, but prepared for your LD7 army to be terror bombed completely off the field.

I agree, on units, Mark of Nurgle is laughable, except Knights (but Khorne is superior,) but on Characters, it can make every difference.

Sarah S
19-02-2009, 19:55
Note that the wording of the Mark of Nurgle makes it the same as the Father of Blades, so MoN provides no protection against shooting for characters mounted on Dragons/chariots/Manticores etc., for the same reasoning as given in the Father of Blades answer.

Neckutter
19-02-2009, 20:19
hell, now that nurgle is rewritten, i wish i could just pay for the old undivided.

Lordsaradain
19-02-2009, 20:50
Chosen unit with favour of the gods, backed up by at least one warshrine...
Should be good. ;)

Roll 2 = re-roll
Roll 3 = keep it
Roll 4 = subtract 1 to get +1T (guys, this is awesome)
Roll 5 = keep it, add or subtract 1, depends what you've equipped them with, personally I'd keep +1A
Roll 6 = Add 1 = 7 = Re-roll
Roll 7 = Re-roll
Roll 8 = Subtract 1 = 7 = Re-roll
Roll 9 = Add or subtract 1, if you already have terror would you get a re-roll, if you add 1 to the result? (I'm not sure)
Roll 10 = Add 1 = 11 = terror
Roll 11 = Add 1 = 12 = Awesomeness!
Roll 12 = Awesomeness!

Remember that you can never have multiple of the same gift, then you get a re-roll...

Kinda cheesy I guess but so what? It's not like I'm playing VC or daemons...

Lordsaradain
19-02-2009, 21:03
Assuming you will reroll 2's, 6's (ie +1), 7's and 8's (ie -1), +1 when you roll 10 and 11 and -1 when you roll 4 or 9, then you have:
12 = 15,7894737 %
11 = 15,7894737 %
8 = 21,0526316 %
5 = 21,0526316 %
3 = 26,3157895 %
The first time you roll. Backed up by a warshrine and you have an even better chance of getting the result you want. Not too shabby I think.

If you're after 12, the second time you roll assuming you got...
11 the first time you have a 18,75 % of getting 12 the second time
8 or 5 the first time you have a 26,6666667 % of getting 12 the second time
3 the first time you have a 28,5714286 % of getting 12 the second time

If you're after 3, the second time you roll assuming you got...
11 or 12 the first time you have a 31,25 % of getting 3 the second time
8 or 5 the first time you have a 33,3333333 % of getting 3 the second time

And remember, with the warshrine you can always roll for a new result every turn if the previous one wasn't pleasing.

Warboss Antoni
19-02-2009, 21:06
Yes, mathwise, doesn't the MoT do such much more? Considering a 6+ ward is essentially 1+ to your AS ( adds 1/6 of a chance ), plus can still be taken against things that ignore armour. I'm no math hammerer but surely someone can come up with the difference between -1 to hit and a 2+ on warriors?
It's just not worth 30 pts. Has its uses, but if your gonna be competetive you can't really afford it ( considering 12 warriors, with command and that mark run over 250 pts ). Just like the MoN used to be - 50 pts for fear, which was somewhat useful ( at the time of it's writing, 7th ed it was just **** X100 ) but not worth it compared to undivided ( which was replaced ) or the other marks.

Lordsaradain
19-02-2009, 21:14
Yes, mathwise, doesn't the MoT do such much more? Considering a 6+ ward is essentially 1+ to your AS ( adds 1/6 of a chance ), plus can still be taken against things that ignore armour. I'm no math hammerer but surely someone can come up with the difference between -1 to hit and a 2+ on warriors?
It's just not worth 30 pts. Has its uses, but if your gonna be competetive you can't really afford it ( considering 12 warriors, with command and that mark run over 250 pts ). Just like the MoN used to be - 50 pts for fear, which was somewhat useful ( at the time of it's writing, 7th ed it was just **** X100 ) but not worth it compared to undivided ( which was replaced ) or the other marks.

My post had nothing to do with MoT vs MoN. :rolleyes:

It was about the greatness of a unit of chosen with a champion with favour of the gods and an accompanying warshrine.

Warboss Antoni
19-02-2009, 21:24
I know, I was referring to the post by Shamfrit.

Lordsaradain
19-02-2009, 21:24
Oh ok, sorry. :P

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 21:33
Well, MoN beats MoT I seem to recall

MoN means 1 6th less HITS on the unit
MoT means that once attacks have hit and wounded, 1 6th of those wounds are removed

30 shots hitting on a 4+ (for arguments sake) Strength 3 vs Toughness 4?

So, against MoN, the shots are hitting on a 5+ instead
That's 10 hits
Wounding on 5+
3.3 wounds
3+ save against those
1.1 wounds after armour

Against MoT
Hitting on 4+
15 hits
wounding on a 5+
5 wounds
Saving on a 3+
1.6 wounds after armour
Saving on a 6+
1.39 wounds after wardsave

Against 30 shots, it is not noticable.
Against 60 shots, it is rounded off to 2 wounds against nurgle, 3 wounds against Tzeentch.
Against 90 shots, it's 3 wounds for Nurgle, slightly more than 4 wounds against Tzeentch
Against 120 shots, it's 4 wounds for Nurgle, and 5-6 wounds against Tzeentch.

This is strength 3 bowfire mind

Armourpiercing and strength 3 would mean bigger losses for Tzeentch
Strength 4 would also mean bigger losses for Tzeentch
Strength 4 and Armourpiercing means bigger losses for Tzeentch

First when we are looking at strength 7 shooting are we looking at Tzeentch winning out due to a ward as far as I can tell. Same goes for templates.

So basically, do you face conventional shooting or warmachines? Nurgle beats Tzeentch against missile fire, whilst Tzeentch beats Nurgle against warmachines.

MalusCalibur
19-02-2009, 22:10
I'm glad to see that common sense prevailed regarding Sorcerers and magic shields, and Chaos Knight lances. I shall take a moment to be smug that I was right about both all along :D

*smug*


MalusCalibur

Sarah S
19-02-2009, 22:11
And Tzeentch beats Nurgle for magic.
And Tzeentch beats Nurgle for close combat.
And Tzeentch beats Nurgle if you are on a mount or chariot.

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 22:31
For magic, it is HIGHLY dubious if Tzeentch beats Nurgle

Nurgle lvl 2 beats Tzeentch lvl 2 imho

Nurgle level 4 contests Tzeentch lvl 4 (who is only good for gateway, really)

EDIT: FACEPALM! Gahd! Of course, magic protection, tzeentch is better than Nurgle on units, my bad -.-

Bac5665
19-02-2009, 22:37
Nurgle is a better lore than Tzeentch by far this edition. And last edition.

Why does Tzeentch always have the most boring lores? :(

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 22:39
Well, depends, I think Tzeentch might actually be more amusing than Nurgle when geared with the Steed of Shadows x2 abillity we just got. It's a question of what you make it to. Tzeentch on a level 4 is bland to me, tzeentch on 2 level 2's geared so that they cans till cast high level spells from it might be more fun.

Mireadur
19-02-2009, 22:42
And Tzeentch beats Nurgle for magic.
And Tzeentch beats Nurgle for close combat.
And Tzeentch beats Nurgle if you are on a mount or chariot.

So now theres a choice to be made. Thats good i guess.

Although, is MoN really useless now when on a dragon/manticore, etc? On a chariot is not a deal since you already needed to purchase the mark for the chariot if wanted the protection on the model.

Kinda anticlimatic the ridden monster part :/

snyggejygge
19-02-2009, 22:44
I'll tell you why lances are a crap upgrade, it's because if we want high S attacks we can use Dragon Ogres & normal Ogres, IF we didn't have access to these units I would agree that lances would be useful on a unit or 2, but now I just don't see the point of it.

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 22:51
About same points as for a unit of Ogres (only slightly more) but they do come with a high weaponskill and high armoursaves AND movement 7 (meaning a pursuit range that is 3D6 instead of 2).

They do however come with way better armoursaves, 1+ vs 4+ and can take magical command. They can also easely saturate areas with more attacks than the Ogres on a narrower frontage. 3 Chaos Knights of Khorne have the same attacks as 3 Ogres in ADDITION to the frenzied horses. 5 Chaos Knights have 6 more strength 6 attacks (or 2-3 if the Ogres are khornate and either 4 or 3 at the same time) than the Ogres AND have 10 strength 4 attacks as well.

Dragon Ogres have 4+ saves and way more wounds and strength 7 but Chaos Knights have more attacks. Chaos Knights have slightly smaller frontage and more attacks.

Really, it is up to the individual player, but I would say that with Lances, they are allready on par with the rest of the choices. And really, if you want attrition-war-constant-strength attacks, Dragon Ogres with Additional Handweapons seem better than Knights unless you go up against Forest Spirits/Ethereal or greatweapon troops. Neither of which there are tonnes.

Havock
19-02-2009, 22:54
So the rending sword and spells; it's on? :p

Neknoh
19-02-2009, 22:56
I would say the same thing I said about Call to Glory

You CAN do it, but in doing so, you run the risc of having metal models thrown at your face.

However, attempting to pull the sword may well have additional side effects to flying metal models, the big red book for instance, is heavy for a reason.

Havock
19-02-2009, 23:52
It can be a useful thing to pull on WAAC players. For now my level 4 Tzeentch sorc. Lord is content with his runesword :p

ChaosVC
20-02-2009, 02:16
since when are Chaos players considered "gentlemen"??

:)

If you worship Khorn and nuggle you tend to yell and brawl or fart alot...very ungentlemanly. But if you are Slannesh or Tnzeetch...They can be gentleman who are fickle minded with a knife behind the back.

But you know us chaos are now one big happy family so we can be one very confused gentle and manly guy. :D

Neckutter
20-02-2009, 06:45
So the rending sword and spells; it's on? :p

holy freaking cow. 30 points well spent imo!

way better than sword of striking and distenndable maw

Kerill
20-02-2009, 07:00
Note that the wording of the Mark of Nurgle makes it the same as the Father of Blades, so MoN provides no protection against shooting for characters mounted on Dragons/chariots/Manticores etc., for the same reasoning as given in the Father of Blades answer.


I disagree Sarah, the Father of blades states hit rolls directed at the bearer. MON affects shots against the model.
You can't shoot at the "bearer" when riding a chariot because you have to randomise between the two parts of the model.

MON affects the MODEL, nurgle character on a mount is still only 1 model meaning they are shooting at the model so get -1BS.

@Havock, what is the rending sword issue?

Djekar
20-02-2009, 07:17
The rending sword says it allows you to reroll wounds, but doesn't specify that they are wounds caused in CC, allowing fun time when combined with a Sorc or Sorc Lord, possibly even an MM gunboat with the FAQ'd Book of Secrets.

~Pearl

ChaosVC
20-02-2009, 07:30
I am not sure if that combo is legal. But it would be best to consult your oponents before you do that. You can easily ride a dragona and say that you can reroll the dragons to wounds roll all you want...but its a bit pushing it.

Another round of WOC faq?

Mireadur
20-02-2009, 09:12
In that case better go with the sword of hoeth, which only says ''all hits wound automatically''.

Please stop reading things like that :eyebrows:


EDIT: i was just reading the ruling for monstruous mounts and indeed MoN would be applied for chaos lords on manticores/dragons. Go ahead and check it out people as i could be wrong maybe.

Kerill
20-02-2009, 09:31
EDIT: i was just reading the ruling for monstruous mounts and indeed MoN would be applied for chaos lords on manticores/dragons. Go ahead and check it out people as i could be wrong maybe.

Indeed it will, as noted above :)

Mireadur
20-02-2009, 10:17
Yes i forgot to say i was only corroborating your previous post =)

Kerill
20-02-2009, 10:29
One question which has popped into my head though is with the bloodskull pendant:

If the pendant model is adjacent to an enemy model fighting a challenge (but the challenge does not involve the pendant boy) will the pendant hit the enemy model in the challenge.

Thoughts anyone?

mrtn
20-02-2009, 10:37
One question which has popped into my head though is with the bloodskull pendant:

If the pendant model is adjacent to an enemy model fighting a challenge (but the challenge does not involve the pendant boy) will the pendant hit the enemy model in the challenge.

Thoughts anyone?
I'd say yes. He's not striking against everyone in base contact, he's popping a magical grenade, and the challenger happens to be one of those affected.

This is in line with the answer in the FAQ, which can be summarized as "Yes, deal with it". :)

Avian
20-02-2009, 10:41
The rending sword says it allows you to reroll wounds, but doesn't specify that they are wounds caused in CC, allowing fun time when combined with a Sorc or Sorc Lord, possibly even an MM gunboat with the FAQ'd Book of Secrets.
Anyone you tried it against would just point you to the Kholek questions and that would be about as far as you'd get.

Neckutter
20-02-2009, 11:09
if father of blades works against all "to hit" rolls at the bearer, i dont understand why rending sword wouldnt let you "reroll to wound" all the time. it is the same concept, even though the WoC is horribly faulty with the father of blades wording.

Shamfrit
20-02-2009, 11:22
Apart from all 'to hit' rolls being specifically quantified by 'the bearer,' if that bit wasn't there, then every to hit roll against anything in the entire army that rolled a 1 would rebound according to this pathetic approach to easter egg hunting.

And what lollage that would be :o

Avian
20-02-2009, 11:43
if father of blades works against all "to hit" rolls at the bearer, i dont understand why rending sword wouldnt let you "reroll to wound" all the time. it is the same concept, even though the WoC is horribly faulty with the father of blades wording.
As I said, compare the Starcrusher questions, who are more directly comparable. It's an offensive ability granted by the weapon that is FAQ-ed to only apply to attacks with that weapon.

Father of Blades has a defensive ability that isn't directly linked to the weapon at all.

Kerill
20-02-2009, 12:04
Father of blades was a load of old crud before, now it's slightly less crappy which is a good thing. I'm hardly going to stop taking golden eye and flail on my disk exalted for it though.

@Mrtn, that's what I thought too (and was hoping :) )

Von Wibble
20-02-2009, 20:18
Daemon princes cant take any items last time i checked.

word of agony can't hit an assassin unless he's been revealed. That was the point of the question.

Sorry, I meant Sorceror only gifts - can a Daemon prince take those. Argument for- he can use magic therefore ia a sorceror. Argument against - he is not a chaos sorceror just a spellcaster.

On word of agony - does that mean that if an assassin wins the rolloff and is revealed first, he can attack the word of agony model and kill it before word of agony takes effect? Or if revealed first would the word of agony hit before he attacked (in which case he'd usually want to be revealed last!)

Captain Obvious
20-02-2009, 20:21
Nurgle Mark got pretty screwed. Not much else to say about that.

A point people are missing about unit champions having to issue but not meet challenges is that if it's your opponent's turn and he has a fighty model and you have a mage, his best bet is to challenge. Characters, including mages, must accept, whereas unit champions do not. Alternatively, if you want to rack up overkill on a champion and there are no Chaos characters present, don't issue a challenge. He must issue one and you get your challenge. I wish this had been included as a change to the FAQ to have champions always issue/accept. That rule has so many exceptions as written (only against characters in challenges, monsters all the time; characters issue and accept, unit champions only issue) that it's very difficult to figure out exactly what to apply when. GW included an errata that could have included the Eye of the Gods rules. They apparently felt it was better left as written that changing it to something easier to play. They chose to double down on stupid.

The Steed of Slaanesh ruling is quite dumb. Not only do fast cav have 360 line of sight only during the shooting phase, under the fast cav rules it states that joined characters do not benefit from the 360 shooting rules. How they got 360 magic sight from all of that is a mystery.

In the "monstrous creatures" rules (whatever monstrous creatures are. You'd have thought they learned their lesson from the needlessly complex Tyranid Monstrous Creature rule), there's this little gem: "...not subject to spells that affect ‘monsters`." How about rune of the true beast? It's not a spell. Neither is the Collar of Zorga. We await more rules "clarifications."

It was nice that they clarified some of the niggling Giant rules. I'm curious why this couldn't have been included in the OnG FAQ, or even the Beastmen FAQ from years ago. The one truly stupid ruling is regarding dueling giants that both yell and ball. The elaborate initiative rules specifically prohibit opponents from striking simulatenously. Dual yell and bawls can never, ever happen. Ever.

I think that pound for pound, this might be the worst FAQ produced.

Mireadur
20-02-2009, 21:08
The Steed of Slaanesh ruling is quite dumb. Not only do fast cav have 360 line of sight only during the shooting phase, under the fast cav rules it states that joined characters do not benefit from the 360 shooting rules. How they got 360 magic sight from all of that is a mystery.

My guess is that the steed of slaneesh makes the character to be considered ''fast cav'' independantly of the gear hes carrying.

Also, the part of only having 360º degrees vision for the shooting phase sounds obviously as a way RAW'ish interpretation.

Just consider it a special army feature and lets move on.

loveless
20-02-2009, 21:13
On the Steed of Slaanesh thing...the Steed has the Fast Cavalry rule - it'd be ridiculous for it to lose it if it joined a unit of Fast Cavalry - I can't think of another mount that has that rule, so it's just an exception to the rule book - gotta make the SoS special somehow :p

Captain Obvious
20-02-2009, 21:39
My argument was not that a character on a Steed of Slaanesh is not fast cav. The character is fast cav and can join units of fast cav. My argument was that 360 line of sight is only for shooting, and that the fast cav rules themselves explicitly exclude characters from benefiting from 360 sight. In order to allow characters to use spells 360 you first have to extend the 360 sight for shooting to magic and then remove the rule about characters not having 360 sight. More egregiously, this is a general rule change, affecting OnG and IIRC, dark elves, yet it is found not in the rulebook faq, but the WoC faq.

loveless
20-02-2009, 21:46
Well, in the case where the character is specifically listed as being Fast Cavalry, I think the intent was to make it so that he benefits from all of the Fast Cavalry rules. I can't think of another instance where a character has the Fast Cavalry rule for their mount other than the Steed of Slaanesh.

Do mounted Slaanesh Heralds get the same boost? Idk, it seems a little "obvious" to me, but it is odd that they didn't spell out the exception in the first place.

Captain Obvious
20-02-2009, 21:59
I'm not disputing that he benefits from all of the fast cav rules, unless you think a character gets to ignore the no 360 line of sight for characters. In that case I'm disputing. Regardless, there's no 360 line of sight for mounted casters rule, fast or not.

MordainThade
20-02-2009, 22:03
Well, in the case where the character is specifically listed as being Fast Cavalry, I think the intent was to make it so that he benefits from all of the Fast Cavalry rules. I can't think of another instance where a character has the Fast Cavalry rule for their mount other than the Steed of Slaanesh.

Do mounted Slaanesh Heralds get the same boost? Idk, it seems a little "obvious" to me, but it is odd that they didn't spell out the exception in the first place.

I agree with your assessment regarding their intentions of giving the Fast Cavalry benefits to a mounted character by clearly stating that the Steed of Slannesh makes the character Fast Cavalry. The added rule of using magic with a 360 degree arc is exactly that: an added rule... but it's not one that's in any way out of character.

And yes, Heralds of Slaanesh on Steeds do indeed have the Fast Cavalry rule, though this only applies to the Slicing Shards and Pavane spells (they cannot get any other sort of LOS-based ranged attack or spell).

No other army book (and I've got all but WE, Dwarves, and Skaven) has a mount that explicitly bestows the Fast Cavalry rule like Steeds of Slaanesh do... and as neither Dwarves nor Skaven have cavalry, I'd bet the WE (being a 6th edition book) don't have it either, and thus only the Steed will give a character Fast Cavalry-style LOS for shooting and magic.

Sarah S
20-02-2009, 22:05
How about Stream of Corruption, Bloodcurdling Roar and Death's Head?

Hell, you could put ALL of those on the same model!

BenTheRat
20-02-2009, 22:30
I know Roar doesn't actually say it is a shooting attack, its just used in the shooting phase, which by the FAQ it is considered a shooting attack.

So can a character march and use this? What if they were on a SoS?

Shamfrit
20-02-2009, 22:52
Fast cavalry can march and still fire. As is obvious from the Dark Riders.

And if on a Disc, you use fly movement so can still use it (but have 90 degree firing arc) and on a Horse, well, since it's a special ability conferring a shooting attack, and not a ballistic skill or missile weapon, you can still fire.

biadetic
21-02-2009, 00:24
Hi, new to forums.

About the FAQ and the Unit champs having to issue challenges; now it says that all chaos models that can issue (including unit champions) must do so. But this is under the Eye Of The Gods special rule.

So doesnt this mean that it only works if the Unit Champ has EotG special rule, which it doesnt. So why would they be subject to issue challenges all the time if they dont have the special rule.

Personally, I dont agree with this as it doesnt make sense to me. They need to have Eye Of the Gods to be subject to it...no?

Any feedback or if anyone can tell me how it is actually supposed to work would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance guys =]

Necromancy Black
21-02-2009, 00:53
What they've done is taken a direct wording for the rule. So even though the rule is under a certain rule it is applied army wide cause that's teh way it's written in teh rule.

Why the sweet **** they couldn't have put it under Will of Choas is beyond me. This is going to set some very bad practices, with people now havign good reason to take parts of rules worded to affect units without the rule.

Can we just burn all copies of Gav Thorpes work and start again?

Valtiel
21-02-2009, 02:26
What they've done is taken a direct wording for the rule. So even though the rule is under a certain rule it is applied army wide cause that's teh way it's written in teh rule.

Why the sweet **** they couldn't have put it under Will of Choas is beyond me. This is going to set some very bad practices, with people now havign good reason to take parts of rules worded to affect units without the rule.

Can we just burn all copies of Gav Thorpes work and start again?

What does Gav Thorpe have to do with it?

Kerill
21-02-2009, 04:09
You can't blame Gav, he doesn't even work for GW anymore, henceforward all such comments should be directed towards Phil Kelly.

senorcardgage
21-02-2009, 04:10
Hey Necromancy Black. I like how you put colours for your W/D/L in your signature. Consider the concept stolen!

Necromancy Black
21-02-2009, 07:36
Hey Necromancy Black. I like how you put colours for your W/D/L in your signature. Consider the concept stolen!

enjoy it :p


Honestly, Gav just become my favorite person to blame for everything :p It doesn't make a world of difference though, the company seems to be going in the same direction with every book needing any number of things addressed in an FAQ and then teh FAQ bringing up some real WTF? answers.

Von Wibble
21-02-2009, 10:36
Nurgle Mark got pretty screwed. Not much else to say about that.

A point people are missing about unit champions having to issue but not meet challenges is that if it's your opponent's turn and he has a fighty model and you have a mage, his best bet is to challenge. Characters, including mages, must accept, whereas unit champions do not. Alternatively, if you want to rack up overkill on a champion and there are no Chaos characters present, don't issue a challenge. He must issue one and you get your challenge. I wish this had been included as a change to the FAQ to have champions always issue/accept. That rule has so many exceptions as written (only against characters in challenges, monsters all the time; characters issue and accept, unit champions only issue) that it's very difficult to figure out exactly what to apply when. GW included an errata that could have included the Eye of the Gods rules. They apparently felt it was better left as written that changing it to something easier to play. They chose to double down on stupid.



The fact that a champion does not have to accept does not mean that he can't accept a challenge, even if in a unit with another character who does have to accept.

Put it this way - chaos sorcerors and the like have a rule that states they must accept challenges. The rule does not state that they must accept challenges first Therefore the opponent gains nothing by challenging - and if you have a unit with a champion in only he actually gives you the option of refusing the challenge.

Steed answer - surely teh sensible one since magic missiles are treated as shooting for purposes of LOS. Since fast cav have 360 vision for LOS with shooting this is a logical move.

Mireadur
21-02-2009, 12:06
The fact that a champion does not have to accept does not mean that he can't accept a challenge, even if in a unit with another character who does have to accept.

Put it this way - chaos sorcerors and the like have a rule that states they must accept challenges. The rule does not state that they must accept challenges first Therefore the opponent gains nothing by challenging - and if you have a unit with a champion in only he actually gives you the option of refusing the challenge.

Steed answer - surely teh sensible one since magic missiles are treated as shooting for purposes of LOS. Since fast cav have 360 vision for LOS with shooting this is a logical move.

More than welcome common sense in this answer... Thanks. :)

Kerill
21-02-2009, 12:20
But not the rules. You don't get to choose a character and then refuse with them, you accept with one or refuse with all at the same time.

The FAQ means:
(assuming a unit with a sorceror and a unit champion)
- On the WOC players turn they can challenge first, meaning they can challenge with either the champion or sorceror.
- On the opposing players turn if they declare a challenge the sorceror must answer it. You can't "refuse" with the champion because you have to refuse the challenge altogether with all your characters.

Whether you can choose to accept the challenge with the champion is the only issue left unsolved but I would say that by RAW the sorceror has to accept it. This part is still up for debate though.

Shamfrit
21-02-2009, 12:27
Unless you have a War Shrine, in which case, you've got the protection in both turns.

Da Boyzz
21-02-2009, 12:30
Can anyone think of the best possible Father of the Blades set up?

I am assuming it would consist something along the lines of a chracter on foot, who has a very good save and ward save, with mark of Nurgle and walk towards the enemy on his own, in the hope that the enemy shoots him and just kills themselves. LOL

- I have nothing better to contribute regarding the FAQ.. all has been covered.

Kerill
21-02-2009, 12:48
Not sure about a useful set up for father, maybe something involving a Tzeentch sorceror lord on disk, father, spell familiar, golden eye, powerstone/enchanted shield. Then fly back and forth in front of your opponents missile troops giving them the V.

Avian
21-02-2009, 12:49
But not the rules. You don't get to choose a character and then refuse with them, you accept with one or refuse with all at the same time.

<snip>

Whether you can choose to accept the challenge with the champion is the only issue left unsolved but I would say that by RAW the sorceror has to accept it. This part is still up for debate though.
As you said, you don't refuse with any particular model. The FAQ states that a champion doesn't have to answer the challenge, so if all you have to accept a challenge is a champion, you can refuse it. If you have a champion and a character, you must accept it with one of them, but it doesn't have to be the character.

Refusing isn't the same as not accepting, as long as someone accepts the challenge, it has not been refused.
It would otherwise be impossible to resolve a challenge where two characters could accept.

Rioghan Murchadha
21-02-2009, 17:21
Refusing isn't the same as not accepting, as long as someone accepts the challenge, it has not been refused.
It would otherwise be impossible to resolve a challenge where two characters could accept.

Not at all, both characters would disappear in a poof of logic. :p

Mireadur
21-02-2009, 17:50
and if you have a unit with a champion in only he actually gives you the option of refusing the challenge.

Indeed if by ''refusing the challenge'' Von wibble was meaning that he could pass up on the challenge with both the champ and the character he'd be wrong in that part of his statement.

Basically i think Avian explained it best. :p

Isabel
25-02-2009, 08:31
I apologize if these questions have already been asked and answered, but I havent been able to find anything about them. So here we go.

Are Demonic Mounts considered barded? It doesnt list barding in thier description, so I assume no. But isnt this a little odd that they dont atleast have the opption? Especially since 16pt, lesser horses have this option. A chaos knight can have a save of 1+ but a hero on demonic mount can only reach 2+ without magic armor.

Call to Glory. The spell description saies to choose a rank and file infantry model. What if you run an all cavalry force? Can you choose to sacrifice, say, a maraudor horsemen and put him on foot? Again, since it doesnt specifically say it, I'm assuming no, but it would be a shame to end up with this spell and have no use at all for it. How about Warhounds? I wouldnt argue the point that they can just to keep things friendly, but this is a world where lizards, rats and goblins can carry spears and be considered rank and file infantry. Would warhounds be considered such?

Does anyone even find a use for this spell? I'm probably wrong, but I cant justify wasting my expensive sorcerer's ability to cast spells to summon a 110 pt hero round after round. And it's expensive to cast to top it off...

Thanks for any help with these questions.

EvC
25-02-2009, 13:18
"Are Demonic Mounts considered barded? It doesnt list barding in thier description, so I assume no." <--That's not an assumption, that's a logical conclusion you have reached. No barding!

"Call to Glory. The spell description saies to choose a rank and file infantry model. What if you run an all cavalry force?" <--Then you have no infantry models. Infantry is infantry. If you've decided to take an all-cavalry army, then you have to accept that there are some incredibly minor drawbacks.