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Coram_Boy
19-02-2009, 13:08
I have been thinking a bit into this, and so far have come up with:
small games(under 1500) skink priest with diadem should take the biscuit - put 2 dice into the diadem each turn, and you have 5 dispel dice per turn, for 125 points, as well as a spare couple of dice to throw at his spells that turn.
As I don't play many games over 1500 points, I don't know much about magic defence with lords, which is why I won't give an opinion on it. Also, please don't say things like 'dwarfs, as they have 4 dice straight off' unless you are talking about their Runesmiths/lords.

W0lf
19-02-2009, 13:12
Most cost effective?

Ring of hotek. No questions asked.

Coram_Boy
19-02-2009, 13:20
meh.. hoping people wouldn't talk about the ring. For non DE players? also, Ring of Hotek doesn't stop things like treespamming and Invoc. I agree that it is an incredible item for it's cost, especially in small games.

W0lf
19-02-2009, 13:48
Oh im sorry, i thought you asked for the most cost effective magic defence.

'The best magic defence on the list we are allowed to talk of is w/e coram_boy says'

better?

If your talking a solution for every army then a scroll caddy.

p.s you think treespamming is a problem :wtf:

EndlessBug
19-02-2009, 14:01
small games(under 1500) skink priest with diadem should take the biscuit

meh.. hoping people wouldn't talk about the ring. For non DE players?

so just lizardmen then? Why ask the question then ignore your first response? He said the ring because it IS the most cost effective

<2k Skink with diadem and scroll

>2k either scroll caddy with ring of Hotek or Slann with discard 6's, an EotG with diadem and a couple of scrolls.

>>2k slann with discard 6's, diadem and cube of darkness.

WoC - infernal puppet is very nice, really punnishes their misscasts.

The SkaerKrow
19-02-2009, 14:28
Relying on the Ring of Hotek for general magic defense is a quick path to defeat. But seeing as how it's the most overhyped magic item in the history of Warhammer, I'm not surprised to see it turn up here.

I'd have to go with Skink Priest with Diadem of Power and a Dispel Scroll. What is functionally five dispel dice and a scroll, for less than 120 points? Sign me up.

Coram_Boy
19-02-2009, 14:38
Ok, fair enough. All I am saying is that I know about the ring of hotek, and I should have said that in the O/P - I agree that it is in many ways the most powerful deterrent against magic in the game. Thanks for pointing my mistake out. Also, I was just trying to point out situations where the ring is not so useful - and no, I don't particularly think that treesinging is a problem, but it isn't usually affected by ring, which is why I put it out there. I don't play lizzies myself - it just seems a cost effective way to generate dd. Are there any other items which do something similar to the diadem?

Foegnasher
19-02-2009, 14:45
what about the O&G banner that give you dispel sice equal to your ranks? it's an easy +3 dispel dice for about 50 points.

Shamfrit
19-02-2009, 14:47
It's a tough call between the Diadem of Power, Black Periapt or the Cube of Darkness.

High Loremaster
19-02-2009, 15:04
2k+ games against magic heavy opponents - Vortex Shard.

75 points for a worry-free turn. It's heaven.

Granted, you have to take an Archmage, but it's still REALLY nice, and most people don't expect it.

Dooks Dizzo
19-02-2009, 15:44
25 point ring really takes the cake since it can be slapped on a cold one or black guard unit champ.

Standard of Sundering has to be up there too though.

Ward.
19-02-2009, 15:56
Relying on the Ring of Hotek for general magic defense is a quick path to defeat. But seeing as how it's the most overhyped magic item in the history of Warhammer, I'm not surprised to see it turn up here.

It's not even close to over hyped and can be just as "effective" as 2 scroll caddies (except 100-150 points cheaper).

Even better against magic heavy armies.


I think the humble dispell scroll wins this round though.

Tarliyn
19-02-2009, 17:03
I will throw my 2cents in here:

lizardmen are diffently high on that list, with the diadem, cube of darkness, slann, transfer miscast item, and lets not forget the eotg.

I would say that empire could be put on that list too. Warrior Priests are top notch, and the rod of power is like the diadem. They may not be the best rated magic defense but I don't ocnsider them slouches either.

Vamps have great magic defense in that their most combat oriented characters provide DD. They can get a decent amount of dd without really giving up and combat effectiveness.

And this discussion can't be made without mentioning dwarfs. Besides their 4 dd they start with. Rune Smiths and Runelords are nice. They don't suck in combat, are tough to kill, and with a runelord you can take an anvil which gives the dwarfs alot of flexibility.

both HE and DE have some cool anti magic- magic items as well which warrat them a mention also

Kerill
19-02-2009, 17:08
Ring of Hotek by a huge degree.

People who play "suicide dark elves" but take the ring are simply liars.

Bac5665
19-02-2009, 17:14
Ring of Hotek is far and away the best 25 points in warhammer. A DE army is better off setting up facing backwards than not taking the ring. The ring + a scroll caddy is enough magic defense to stop almost anything. And its the ring that's by far the most important part of that.

The SkaerKrow
19-02-2009, 17:35
It's funny. I thought that, due to the proliferation of Immune to Psychology/Panic/Fear/Terror units and high Leadership armies in Warhammer that Dark Elves had lost their advantage of psychological warfare. Now I see that we no longer bother getting at the psyche of the opposing army, and now get at the psyche of opposing players.

Bac5665
19-02-2009, 17:42
SkaerKrow, do you run the ring? Have you seen it run?

It is sick. At worst, it directs the focus of 400 point wizards, as they only cast at stuff outside its range. At best, it causes that 400 point wizard to miscast and die. How can you argue that a 25 point magic item that can control the direction of the magic phase, if not shut it down outright, isn't crazy?!? I just don't see it.

Play against the ring with a magic heavy list, and tell me it's not worth more than 25 points. No, it will not shut down the entire magic phase every time, or even most of the time. Neither will even 2 dispell scrolls. But the dispell scrolls will stop 2 spells. The ring will affect the target of a dozen spells and stop at least two. It is better than 2 scrolls, at half the cost.

This shouldn't even have to be explained. It's ridiculousness is so inherently obvious that arguing about it is ridiculous.

Kerill
19-02-2009, 17:56
SkaerKrow, do you run the ring? Have you seen it run?

It is sick. At worst, it directs the focus of 400 point wizards, as they only cast at stuff outside its range. At best, it causes that 400 point wizard to miscast and die. How can you argue that a 25 point magic item that can control the direction of the magic phase, if not shut it down outright, isn't crazy?!? I just don't see it.

Play against the ring with a magic heavy list, and tell me it's not worth more than 25 points. No, it will not shut down the entire magic phase every time, or even most of the time. Neither will even 2 dispell scrolls. But the dispell scrolls will stop 2 spells. The ring will affect the target of a dozen spells and stop at least two. It is better than 2 scrolls, at half the cost.

This shouldn't even have to be explained. It's ridiculousness is so inherently obvious that arguing about it is ridiculous.

I guess he is a DE player.

And the ring is far better than 2 scrolls against the more powerful spells in the game that need 3,4 or 5 dice meaning you are reduced to basic magic missiles (D6 S4) that kill 1.9 blackguard if you cast successfully.

Thank god for buboes in my WOC army.

Voodoo Boyz
19-02-2009, 18:04
The ring stops a good number of otherwise high-powered mages, but it doesn't do anything to the super powered phases of VC & DoC.

Really screws with the new Slaan & WoC Infernal Gateway Delivery Systems though! :D

Captain Micha
19-02-2009, 18:11
Do the Lizards have any way to shut down the ring?

Or is the best bet not to field a magic army against it if you are Lizards?

Can High Elves shut it down?

Voodoo Boyz
19-02-2009, 18:15
Only way to shut the ring down is to kill the bearer.

WoC have a shot at it if they take multiple Nurgle Sorcerers to spam Buboes (safely cast on 2D6 and is the default Spell) to kill the bearer easily, but other than that you need to just go character hunting.

Dooks Dizzo
19-02-2009, 18:27
The ring stops Infernal gateway on 5 dice 92% of the time. Good enough for anyone.

Captain Micha
19-02-2009, 18:27
so there's nothing like an item destroyer in the game?

So the ring's basically the Psychic Hood, of fantasy? (and just as broken no less)

Shamfrit
19-02-2009, 18:30
Actually, given that the Ring causes miscasts...and Warriors do not fear miscasts.

Warriors are best equipped to deal with the Ring bearer, and subsequently don't care about it.

Simple thing to do is find out where the ring is, kill everything else. Sounds simplistic yes, but Buboes is that good.

Coragus
19-02-2009, 18:40
I don't know if it will be the "best", but for an upcoming tourney I'm taking Dwarfs (4 dispell dice), with a Runesmith (+1 dispell die) carrying one scroll, along with a BSB with a MR of Valaya (+2 to all dispell rolls).

Foegnasher
19-02-2009, 19:09
about the ring, you gotta remember that the person carrying it, 9 times out of ten is a punk-ass dark elf lvl 2.

easy kill for a swift magehunting unit, or throw a garbage unit at her unit to make it persue closer to you to kill it in cc.

there are ways of takeing out the ring, you shoudn't be relying so much on magic to winyou the game anyway. warhammer fantasy is at it's best when it's about tactics strategy and movement, not who can put the most powerdice on the table.

The SkaerKrow
19-02-2009, 19:47
SkaerKrow, do you run the ring? Have you seen it run? Seen it run? Yes. Run one? No. I run magic in my Dark Elf list (Magic is indeed one of the strength of the army), and running a Ring of Hotek is counterproductive to bringing casters of your own. You see, everyone likes to ignore the fact that the Ring of Hotek also works against the Dark Elf player, meaning that most people who take it don't run any other magic defense. That means that any Dark Elf unit not in the ring's area of effect is as good as dead when fighting against a magic heavy list.


No, it will not shut down the entire magic phase every time, or even most of the time. Neither will even 2 dispell scrolls. But the dispell scrolls will stop 2 spells. The ring will affect the target of a dozen spells and stop at least two. It is better than 2 scrolls, at half the cost. Unlike Dispel Scrolls, it works against the Dark Elf player. Unlike the Diadem Skink Priest, it can't stop spells with no target, nor those cast on one dice.

merkado
19-02-2009, 21:14
Do the Lizards have any way to shut down the ring?

Or is the best bet not to field a magic army against it if you are Lizards?

Can High Elves shut it down?

Vaul's Unmaking

Buckero0
19-02-2009, 21:19
I'm with Skaerkrow. Have I played against the ring? Yes, with heavy magic and it didn't phase me, I forgot who was carrying it even. Miscasts happen. Doubles happen, just not often enough for me to worry about.

Do I run the ring, no, because I know it wouldn't work in my case. If the enemy rolls a 5, and a 6, then his spell goes off and I probably don't have a way to stop it without burning a scroll (don't take more than one) or expending 3-4 dispel dice (probably won't happen) You'd be better off getting a null talisman or something useful.

@Foegnasher = Does anyone take the ring on a lvl2? Why spend the points? Why pay points for the spellcaster, why upgrade him if you guys are so afraid of the ring's effects? It's only going to affect your army for the first 2-3 turns if you put it on a lvl2.

Foegnasher
19-02-2009, 21:49
or something useful.

@Foegnasher = Does anyone take the ring on a lvl2? Why spend the points? Why pay points for the spellcaster, why upgrade him if you guys are so afraid of the ring's effects? It's only going to affect your army for the first 2-3 turns if you put it on a lvl2.


our local DE badass uses 1 lvl2 , with the ring and a scroll.

snyggejygge
19-02-2009, 22:24
Seems like a waste of points upgrading the wizard to a level 2...

Kerill
20-02-2009, 05:08
That means that any Dark Elf unit not in the ring's area of effect is as good as dead when fighting against a magic heavy list.

Unlike Dispel Scrolls, it works against the Dark Elf player. Unlike the Diadem Skink Priest, it can't stop spells with no target, nor those cast on one dice.

- unlike dispel scroll you don't need to buy a 100+ point mage to take it
- unlike the diadem you don't have to spend 125 points on a mage with it who has to forgo casting spells to use it
- unlike the diadem or dispel scrolls it can kill an enemy mage
- unlike the diadem or dispel scrolls it can end your opponents entire magic phase that turn
- unlike the diadem or dispel scrolls it can cause a S6 hit on everyone in contact with the mage
- unlike the diadem or dispel scrolls it can cause cause the opposing mage to permanently lose one of their spells
- unlike dispel scrolls it isn't one use only and against a magic heavy army may get used over ten times in the battle if your opponent is lucky with miscasts.
- Unlike dispel scrolls or the diadem it makes your opponent through fewer dice at spells meaning they are more likely to fail the casting roll in the first place.
- Unlike dispel scrolls or the diadem it can allow you to cast black horror automatically in the middle of your opponents magic phase which they will struggle to dispel.

Sorceress carrying the ring seems silly btw.

Oh and the DE players here are being ingenuous, it's perfectly easy to put your sorceresses in units so that the units are withing 12" of the ring whilst the sorceresses aren't (or use focus familiar). NOT hard at all.

BTW lore of metal can potentially be used against the ring (although law of gold is highly unlikely to get it) since if its on a champ or master you can hit them with rune of burning iron (burning iron and bane head if its on a master for lizzies).

Death also has steal soul but that is much shorter in range.

For high elves you have vauls unmaking and the ring of Corin.

Ward.
20-02-2009, 06:02
our local DE badass uses 1 lvl2 , with the ring and a scroll.

I made this :wtf: face when I read that, let him know that sticking it on a unit champion/ BSB is a much better idea.



Actually, given that the Ring causes miscasts...and Warriors do not fear miscasts.
.

I kinda got to ask, why is that?

Kerill
20-02-2009, 06:48
They do fear miscasts, but the forbidden puppet allows you to modify the miscast result by up to D3 in either direction which makes it less scary for the WOC player.

Urgat
20-02-2009, 07:45
For goblins (w/o orcs):
Staff of sneaky stealing+staff of sorcery. Cheap, efficient, no drawback aside from needing two shamans (you need two anyway if you don't want units running the moment a sorcerer casts a spell at you, so what the heck). Lvl1 shamans will be way enough though, so I repeat: cheap :p
Awefully cool versus dance spamming vamps, OK, and, more generally speaking, everything. I dispise one use scrolls, really.

kroq'gar
20-02-2009, 07:58
HE- forgoing offense and spamming drain magic - take a scroll and get rid of any high cast spells that get through
DE- ring
WE - take a lord with reroll disp & scrolls & a branchwraith with +1 disp
Orcs - banner to add ranks to disp dice and the staff of sneaky stealing (take a pd as a disp)
Vamps - periap and some carts
Dwards- need i continue with them :P
Chaos - take infernal puppet, and consider black tounge (instant miscaste their lord and try for something harsh) Also a deamonprince with reroll disp/power is an option
Lizardmen- enough said previously
Empire - priests & rod of power (forgo power dice and turn them into disp)
Brets - chalace & magic resistance in every important unit (utilising the damsels MR)

Tomb Kings Skaven, beasts & ogres struggle as older lists (take what items are on offer and scroll caddies)

Deamons.... ... .... .... .. .. .. .. . !#@%!@%#