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IncubiLord
06-12-2005, 19:43
Since the next DE codex seems to be on the back burner, I have been working on a revision of my own. Some of the local gamers have shown interest, and I want to see what you guys think.
If there's enough interest, I'll post my rules updates - but I have to omit the info that actually appears in the codex, so you'll need that too.

EDIT: due to the length of this thread and the changes that occur within the update, this link (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=504573#post504573) will now take you to the current version.

Easy E
06-12-2005, 19:52
I would love to see it. The Dark Eldar have always interested me. Unfortunately, I don't have the codex; but I'll do the best I can to give constructive feedback.

Have you tried to expand their background as well?

IncubiLord
06-12-2005, 21:57
I did a little with the fluff because I wanted to make the armies reflect their leaders. This meant I needed to expand the haemonculi and incubi background.
Wyches got little attention, but I did add rules for fallen eldar (the ones who just abandoned their craftworlds).
I also created a form of possessed dark eldar, because I don't think a dark eldar who starts developing psychic powers would sit around waiting for the haemonculi to find him.

IncubiLord
06-12-2005, 22:44
Here's the .txt form.
I have a much better .doc version that actually looks like it might be pages from a codex, but it's 219 K and some people might not be able to read it to boot.

Easy E
07-12-2005, 01:17
I've looked it over briefly and here are some quick reactions.

This list is much more customizable then the previous list. That is good. I like how certain HQ choices allow you to have certain army list options. I think it is also great that it effects your armory selections. Your lists allow for a variety of customization.

I feel that a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle maybe too kill-y.

I like the Soul Reaper concept, but Incubi that are that mobile would be very difficult to deal with.

Skull Kin make sense in the fact that members of the Craftworld may fall to the ways of the Dark Eldar, but the fact that they have a soulstone would make them more of a target for Dark Eldar. In addition, would the numbers turning to the DE be great enough to support entire units of them? Finally, are they distinct enough to warrant a seperate unit?

Squad upgrades for Mandrakes was desperately needed. Thank you.

Veteran squads are a good idea, but i think we need some more veteran skills to choose from.

Are grotesque squads led by a Haemonculi in the normal dex? If they are is a large grotesque needed?

Overlord harness seems like trying to shoe horn a Dreadnaught into the list. The Talos is suppose to repesent their dread.

I feel there is a role for a Pit Vyper style unit (I think they wanted scourges to fill it. Woops) to fill. I see them as being based more off of the Raider then the Reavers model wise. Incidently, what is the points cost of a Pit Vyper.

The Wych support squad strikes me as odd, but again, I see the need for it in a Wyche Cult to be competitive. Perhaps a name change is needed? Unfortunately, I can't think of anything with any pizzaz.

I want to study the Webwights closer before I comment on them. The fact that a psychic Dark Eldar would not want to be killed makes senses. Especially, if a powerful dark Eldar develops psychic power. I am sure that a large percentage of Dark Eldar maybe psykers based on the potential of their CWE cousins. I am glad you tried to address this issue.

That's all for now.

IncubiLord
07-12-2005, 01:45
I feel that a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle maybe too kill-y.

I like the Soul Reaper concept, but Incubi that are that mobile would be very difficult to deal with.

Skull Kin make sense in the fact that members of the Craftworld may fall to the ways of the Dark Eldar, but the fact that they have a soulstone would make them more of a target for Dark Eldar. In addition, would the numbers turning to the DE be great enough to support entire units of them? Finally, are they distinct enough to warrant a seperate unit?

Squad upgrades for Mandrakes was desperately needed. Thank you.

Veteran squads are a good idea, but i think we need some more veteran skills to choose from.

Are grotesque squads led by a Haemonculi in the normal dex? If they are is a large grotesque needed?

Overlord harness seems like trying to shoe horn a Dreadnaught into the list. The Talos is suppose to repesent their dread.

I feel there is a role for a Pit Vyper style unit (I think they wanted scourges to fill it. Woops) to fill. I see them as being based more off of the Raider then the Reavers model wise. Incidently, what is the points cost of a Pit Vyper.

The Wych support squad strikes me as odd, but again, I see the need for it in a Wyche Cult to be competitive. Perhaps a name change is needed? Unfortunately, I can't think of anything with any pizzaz.

They're really just plasma guns and plasma pistols, most armies have an equivalent, but maybe the price should increase a little.

Soul Reapers are slower than giving a unit of Incubi a raider, and I hope the smaller unit size will help compensate for the speed. Any thoughts?

The Eldar codex seems to imply that a noteworthy number leave the craftworlds each year. I assume they ditch the soulstone (its a spirit catching jar for when you die), and with the better armor and power weapon options, they are the only DE in the list that don't belong to the Wyches but fill similar roles. Plus they're a good conversion opportunity.

You're welcome. I thought so too.

There are a number of universal special rules listed for veteran skills in the squad options as well as the 2 DE-specific ones.

Your Haemonculi HQ choices may join them, but grotesques are currently a unit with no real options (you can buy them a Raider if you commit to keeping a Haemonculus with them to mount/dismount).

An Overlord should be like a war-walker modified to resemble an Incubi. Imagine a giant Incubi warrior.
Also, the Talos is a very poor Dreadnought option.

OOPS! Got the cursor on the wrong side of the 5! Base cost is 50 points. These and the Overlords are inspired by the Ulthwe Strike force (who use a strangely familiar webway portal) being allowed Vypers and War Walkers through the delicate webway (they called it delicate - not joking).

Suggestions are welcome. I didn't like having 2 units named "Support Team," but until I have a good name, they get a generic.

Thanks.

CELS
08-12-2005, 04:00
As requested, here I am to offer my views. The Dark Eldar are very much an example of good idea, bad execution, in my opinion, so I'm glad to see that other people see this as well (instead of just saying that the Dark Eldar are alltogether sucky, or that they're the best thing since Space Marines). Anyway, on to the comments.

Fluff

1) - All Eldar are psychic, which means that all Dark Eldar are psychic. It's just that GW didn't make any of them talented psykers like the Craftworld eldar. Still, the fluff on Eldar clearly states that their race is psychic, which means that a lot of what you write under the 'Webwight' doesn't make a lot of sense. And for an Eldar to ask a Traitor Marine about psychic powers and chaos is like for a human to ask a chimp about.... well, something. Generally, even the Dark Eldar would know a whole lot more about it than any Chaos Space Marine. Except Ahriman, and the top dogs.

2) - I think the Skull Kin would be extremely rare, if they exist at all. I can understand that some Eldar would fall to chaos, but turning to the path of the dark eldar seems much less likely, since the dark eldar are anathema to the craftworld eldar, and hold no special power over them with which to 'corrupt' them. Why would anyone leave the craftworld and ditch their soulstone, for a short and painful life with the dark eldar, followed by an eternity of pain as Slaanesh devours their spirit?

3) - Note that even if the Haemonculi used all kinds of technology to enhance rodents, grafting new limbs and adding bionics, it wouldn't change their offspring at all unless the Haemonculi actually manipulated their DNA, and managed to get the rodents to start producing engineered genetic material. And that seems a bit of a waste for rats living on the street :)

4) - The prisoners rule seems a bit unbalanced...

5) - I think the whole idea of Dark Eldar using daemons is a bit unlikely. Many people believe that the Dark Eldar have some kind of connection with Slaanesh, but the fact of the matter is that the Dark Eldar hate and fear Slaanesh as much as anyone in the galaxy. This means that the Dark Eldar are extremely afraid of meddling with chaos, because it could quickly lead to Slaanesh getting a hold over them and just eating their soul while they're still alive. I guess they might turn to chaos if they were specifically worshipping Khorne, the arch-enemy of Slaanesh, but generally it seems to me that the Dark Eldar are very afraid of developing their psychic powers and meddle with chaos, in fear of attracting Slaanesh's attention.

6) - I don't see a need for a Wych support squad, and by giving them one, you're diluting the distinctiveness of a Wych cult army. If they need tank-hunters, they'll go a long way with their super-fast reaver jetbikes. In addition, you could give their assault squads AT-grenades.

Hope this helps ;)

IncubiLord
08-12-2005, 04:26
It does. Thanks CELS.
1) The webwights came into being in part because the entry for the Nightmare Doll says practicing psykers are short-lived. Do you think they don't fit, or could they use a fluff revision?
2) "Introspections upon perfection" (back of Eldar Codex), seems to imply that many young join the DE. Any thoughts on what to do with them?
3) A waste? Definitely. Fun for an ancient Mad Doctor? You need something to do during the lean times.
4) But I'm not sure how to fix it. Got something?
5) That's why the only daemons you see are Warp Beasts and the hunted Psykers who were possessed by relatively weak Daemons. Take them with a grain of salt, and think of the Wych pro assassins they might be with the 'counts as concept.'
6) PLEASE suggest a new Wych Heavy Support choice!
I came up with most of this without any help, and didn't like that their HS choice was so similar to the Skull Kin, but I'm kinda tapped out. I just can't come up with something for them.

Feel free to hate Webwights, and to post again.

Easy E
08-12-2005, 23:00
I was thinking a bit more on the Soul Reapers. You are right that they are actually slower than Incubi on a Raider. A raider can be easily destroyed. If each Incubi has a warp jump generator with a 5+ Invulnerable save, they will be difficult to kill compared to a raider. Perhaps if they did not have the invulnerable save, or had a risk on using the webway pack?

Does the DE codex talk about how Incubi are recruited?

IncubiLord
09-12-2005, 01:55
Does the DE codex talk about how Incubi are recruited?

No. The Incubi are left almost exclusively to the imagination. They only exist as part of the DE Lord's bodyguard.

CELS
09-12-2005, 03:18
It does. Thanks CELS.
1) The webwights came into being in part because the entry for the Nightmare Doll says practicing psykers are short-lived. Do you think they don't fit, or could they use a fluff revision?
Sorry, the entry for the Nightmare Doll? What's that?



2) "Introspections upon perfection" (back of Eldar Codex), seems to imply that many young join the DE. Any thoughts on what to do with them?
Kysaduras is not talking about young joining Dark Eldar, he's talking about young taking the Path of Wandering, also known as the Path of the Outcast. They become Rangers, and wander the galaxy in search of adventure. It is actually, as Kage has pointed out, rather silly to call it a Path at all, since the point is that it is no path at all. They are ignoring the Eldar path system, as they are too young and too wild to devote their life to a single Path at a time.

(The Eldar apparently have many names for Rangers. Kysaduras says that they follow the Path of the Damnation or Path of Wandering. On the page on the left, the rune of the Outcast is translated to "Those who wander", which is another way of saying Path of Wandering. Under the Ranger entry, it says that Rangers follow the Path of the Outcast. In other words, these three paths are one and the same)


3) A waste? Definitely. Fun for an ancient Mad Doctor? You need something to do during the lean times.
Might as well get some orks then. More fun than rats, and easier to breed ;)


4) But I'm not sure how to fix it. Got something?
They could always pay points for a special sort of wargear that allows them to capture their enemies alive. It can be difficult to capture a Space Marine alive if all you have is a splinter rifle.


5) That's why the only daemons you see are Warp Beasts and the hunted Psykers who were possessed by relatively weak Daemons. Take them with a grain of salt, and think of the Wych pro assassins they might be with the 'counts as concept.'
Ah, good. You might want to clarify that they are not aligned with chaos. Similarly, you might want to refer to them as warp creatures or warp beasts instead of daemons, since a daemon typically has some alignment with chaos.


6) PLEASE suggest a new Wych Heavy Support choice!
I came up with most of this without any help, and didn't like that their HS choice was so similar to the Skull Kin, but I'm kinda tapped out. I just can't come up with something for them.
They don't need a new Heavy Support choice! They already have Jetbikes and Hellions, both of which can carry a large number of Str 8 Blasters. They shouldn't have any long range support. That's the price of playing Wych cults, and that is what makes them characterful - they need to get close and personal.

IncubiLord
09-12-2005, 05:20
Nightmare Doll? What's that?
It's DE wargear that grants delirious visions of the future. The fluff bit says the DE "view those who use psychic powers as amusing playthings."


Kysaduras says that they follow the Path of the Damnation or Path of Wandering. On the page on the left, the rune of the Outcast is translated to "Those who wander"
That made me think that the Path of Damnation and the Path of Wandering were two different things. Also, the rune of the Dark Kin next to Outcast says in its description "forever damned." The sidebar on the rangers says some come back, I don't think they would be referred to as damned if they can return home.
Also, I don't think a farseer would give two names for the same thing. It seems unusually helpful.


Might as well get some orks then. More fun than rats, and easier to breed
You think those mushroom-spores would grow in a twilight realm? Great, the Haemonculi have the Dark City infested with Orks... again! :D
Besides, what do they do with all the meat after they eat the souls? I figure there's a dumping ground, and probably warp-exposed, agressive rats in it. Also, small = easier to control, feed, catch, maintain large numbers of in a small space.


They could pay points for a special sort of wargear to capture enemies alive.
Could work, something like a standard bearer for each squad? Or were you thinking character only?


You might want to clarify that they are not aligned with chaos. Similarly, you might want to refer to them as warp creatures or warp beasts instead of daemons.
Warp entities it is. I assumed that since GW's def. of Daemon was essentially thoughts manifested in the warp, it would work, but it does carry a chaos stigma.


They don't need a new Heavy Support choice! They shouldn't have any long range support. That's the price of playing Wych cults.
Might they trade in HS slots for something else then? It seems cruel to tell the Wyches that they don't get a HS choice or anything for their (significant) loss.
I thought a support team wouldn't be too bad since they already have units in Raiders. They're really just the Wych Squad with 2 more special weapons (no heavies).

Ophidicus
16-12-2005, 20:09
Just dug this thread up... but it's good!

You think those mushroom-spores would grow in a twilight realm? Great, the Haemonculi have the Dark City infested with Orks... again!
Besides, what do they do with all the meat after they eat the souls? I figure there's a dumping ground, and probably warp-exposed, agressive rats in it. Also, small = easier to control, feed, catch, maintain large numbers of in a small space.
Though you discredit it, I think that's actually a damned good idea (and a way to sneak orks anywhere there are DE)... a haemonculus has haervested spores from a catured Ork, the biggest toughest Nob he could find, and 'grown' his own batch, intending to experiment and manipulate them (Saruman anyone?), sell some off as gladiators, the usual. Possibly they break out, Resi-style (heheh, DE fighting Orks in Commoragh... sounds like a fine video game to me!) and rampage. This could be on any planet which has Webway access, if the Haemonculus was gutsy enough to establish an outpost. Not the usual method for the DE I know, but hey, it could happen.

IncubiLord
16-12-2005, 20:43
I like the idea of "pet" Orks, I only worry about the space constraints of a civilization that's mostly in one hidden city keeping orks as pets.
The image is fun, but I was actually curious if CELS thought the conditions in the Dark City were good enough for plants (even fungi). Sorry if it comes across as an attempt to discredit a contributer.
An outpost could work, but I'd rather not simply port orks into the DE army.
I see rats as a very low-maintenance way to have many victims on-site in an already-crowded area.
I'm open to suggestion, however, and if you have an idea on how to make them work, please let me know.

Ophidicus
17-12-2005, 01:27
If you'r in the habit of trawling through stupidly long threads, check here. This thread is quite old however, and may contain shreds of drivel. Your call.
http://www.dysartes.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1348
There's also a postin 40k general discussion about Mandrakes.

IncubiLord
17-12-2005, 04:57
Why yes, I will read stupidly long threads in the hopes of finding a bit of useful info. ;) I'm now considering changing grotesques to the USR for "feel no pain."
If you're still in touch with these guys, they're welcome to offer ideas, and I have another local player or two who might help playtest, so hopefully we can avoid the same problem killing this thread.
I actually brought up the mandrakes in the Arhra thread if that's what you're referring to there. If not, didn't find it. A link or title (or both) would be appreciated.

skuller
23-12-2005, 08:23
I used to be a dark eldar fan when 3rd edition just started but got distracted to IG since DE are too square and didnt have any real options
Youre webwights idea is an excellent addition to the DE, probably instead of being a diferent HQ entry just an upgrade so either the archon or dracon can use any pyschic powers for a set amount of points.
I always thouth that the grotesques doesnt have nothing to do in the elites slot and they dont belong to the army if a hemancouli is not present. They should be an option ala command squad for every hemancouli, maybe like 0-5 grotesques per hemancoli and be able like the BT chaplain to join squads even with the grotesques (consider them as flesh servitors)
the mandrakes need a mayor change, most likely a champ with the upgrade to "buy" additonal arms and wargear. they supposed to be greatest assassin in the game so maybe increase their points to 18 and add poison blades (wound on 2+ regarding T)
wyches got really better with the new rules the only need they need is maybe to be able to buy a power weapon/agonizer for every 5
The mayor flaw that I see in the DE warrior is that they have a rapid fire weapon as a main weapon. Rapid fire is for trained soldiery not pirates they should have change their splinter rifle with a version that is A2 same str and AP or splinte pistol and CCW. Squad number should be more flexible 5-20 again. Been able to take up to three splinter cannon, blaster and shredder no dar lance again their pirates no tank buster and get the option for raider if they number 10 or less.
reaver are ok IMO but hellions need the same changes as the warrior close combat and pistol and up to three options.
Scourges should be part of the Fast attack amd be able to again have either splinter cannons,shredder or blaster
youre idea of a pit viper sounds excellent
I'm not sure about the rats, kindred and the prisioners yet
what I think that can benefit the talos as it is now is the chance to be bought as a 1-3 squad per Heavy support squad and maybe the options to be abvle to buy a disitegrator or a hemancouli flamer
Just my two cents anyway

IncubiLord
24-12-2005, 06:15
If you want to test this option, remove the Greater Webwight entry from the list.
Greater Webwight character upgrade: +1S, +1T, 4+ Invulnerable save, becomes a psyker and may buy up to two powers. Only available to Independent Characters. +30 points.


the mandrakes need... a champ with the upgrade to "buy" additonal arms and wargear... maybe increase their points to 18 and add poison blades (wound on 2+ regarding T) Please note: stated under “Dark Eldar Army List,” all characters gain access to the armory unless their entry says otherwise. The Pack Alpha is a full-fledged character. I also think rending claws are a little better than 2+ poison because it makes mandrakes have a chance of taking out anything. Adds to the terror aspect they’re supposed to fill.


wyches... need is maybe to be able to buy a power weapon/agonizer for every 5 Add agonizer to the list of special weapons: +15pts (one per squad)

On warriors, I wanted to leave current armies relatively unharmed. A shotgun style weapons option is good, and I would be inclined to allow a unit of warriors to take a special weapon instead of a heavy.

I must confess, Haemonculus creations are the part of DE I like the least. They probably deserve more attention. I would consider a grotesque bodyguard rule, but this seems to get out of hand combined with 1-3 Haemonculi as a HQ choice. Maybe using Haemonculi bodyguards reduces it to 1-2 Haemonculi. Talos are too potent for 1-3, but they deserve a few options. I'll have to look at that one.

Thanks, skuller.

skuller
24-12-2005, 07:55
If you want to test this option, remove the Greater Webwight entry from the list.
Greater Webwight character upgrade: +1S, +1T, 4+ Invulnerable save, becomes a psyker and may buy up to two powers. Only available to Independent Characters. +30 points. .

I'm not to sure, the only thing with this upgrade that it would make completly useless the shadowfield since for five more points you get a decent inv save, can "cast spells" and get the stats pumped, i was thinking more on +15/10 and get the option to "cast" and may buy up to two powers.

like the idea of rending claws for the mandrakes taht would put them at the same level as a genesteeler. They will be now too powerful since they can tackle lemand russes or land rider on a 5+ after the rending hit. That would change them from elite assassins to tank buster/armored troop buster.

IncubiLord
24-12-2005, 18:52
I too am unsure of this version, but I think the shadow field remains useful. A 2+ Invulnerable save is extremely powerful, and there's little point in handing an Archite w/Agonizer a 4+ Invulnerable. The points could increase, or the save could be 5+ like basic webwights, maybe allowing players to upgrade the save to 4+.

Keeping the rending claws down to a few per unit should keep the mandrakes from getting too powerful. Genestealers that you can't shoot the first half of the game would be too much, imho.

Xisor
27-12-2005, 00:57
Though I've always been keen to see a Dark Eldar psychic, it has always come to this thought:

How would the psyker survive in Commoragh, or in the real world?

Dark Eldar must be doing something to stop their souls from going. One, as is indicated is the intake of others' souls, allowing them somehow to stave off the steady leech of slaanesh without the need to resort to Slaaneshi worship, Spirit Stones or the Laughing God to persist. I'd suggest that it's because the 'psychic' portion of a Dark Eldar mind is almost wholly devoted to staving off, that is 'fighting' slaanesh.

As a psychic becomes more powerful we can presume(given alot of indication IMO) that their soul 'brightens', it becomes stronger and more vibrant. However, as a soul becomes brighter, Slaanesh'll be drawn to it, or will devote more effort to devouring it: in the same way Dark Eldar go after psychic souls. I believe it's safe to presume that the Dark Eldar method of devouring souls parallels quite nicely with the way Slaanesh devours souls.

In this way, I'd say that a powerful Dark Eldar psyker(or one thats any overt way 'above the norm') would have to be at the very top of the Dark Eldar food chain(lest his 'superior' simply go "Yumffle" and eat him/her) or not at all. Failing that, they could never openly use their power, or they'd have to conceal it heavily. How easily can an Eldar sense that another is psychic? How much effort would be needed to conceal this?

At least, in game terms a DE psychic power would have to be very discrete and not particularly obvious(ie a Ld modifier to enemy nearby, a benefit to the firepower of a squad, something that wouldn't mark out one particular person as 'ZOMHG! teh Pysk3r!1!!!eleven!'). At most, on the other hand, a Dark Eldar could be one of the most powerful psykers ever. Why? Because he'd need the strength of the soul to stand against the power the might that Slaanesh could send against it, not just the normal Daemons and such, but it'd scale up. Defeat one, She sends two. Defeat two, She sends four. Defeat four, She sends eight....


Now, in those regards, I have severe...difficulty...in seeing how the Webwights could exist outside the Webway. Commoragh doesn't seem in itself immenently destrucful to everyone...the whole Slaanesh things about as bad as the DE can make it, it won't get worse(will it?). But the Webwights...drawing attention like that...the Harlequins couldn't have it surely? Assuming that half-daemons inside the webway are in themselves a very very very bad thing if left uncontained, I don't see webwights being ...possible.

IncubiLord
27-12-2005, 03:31
And if I can't clean up the loose threads of their fluff (which really needs a complete re-write), they'll probably get dropped like a hot rock. They are the only way I see (non-latent) DE psykers appearing though.
A DE starts to develop psyker powers, sneaks off, and comes back possessed by a thing from the warp.

Webwights are powerful nasties, surely rivaling DE Lords in combat ability. As an added bonus, it's probably a bad idea to try to eat a warp creature.
As for Slaanesh, I'd assume webwights get the same attention as an Ulthwe farseer using the webway to lead his little strike force.

I really don't know how the harlequins would react. They don't seem to mind the Avatar (an allied Daemon) wandering the webway, and they apparently don't care about the warp beasts the Wych Cults like to catch for their arenas. As long as it's not the Daemonhunters' Adversaries using an aligned daemon (sure to irritate even the other DE), a possessed Eldar might go unmolested as long as he retains control.
There might even be an "approved daemonic companions" list the Harlequins use. ;)

Xisor
27-12-2005, 03:46
My point is that a Dark Eldar psyker is unprotected save for the Webway medium itself and the power of it's own mind. Ulthwe psykers wear spirit stones, which save them 'essentially'. A powerful Dark Eldar psyker and ... I doubt he'd survive long.

Why would Asdrubael Vect allow these Webwights to persist?

Secondly, why do the Dark Eldar require 'non-latent' Psykers? Their soul-leeching can be accomodated in the rules themselves. DE do not train as psykers, they become too...conspicuous if they do/are. Instead, most of the latent psyche is devoted to 'Dark Eldar-ness'. Soul leeching. -1Ld Modifier to any thing within X" of a 'Dark Eldar' model.

Simple, I'd say, and doesn't require "Supa-zappy-evil: On a successful test the Webwight shoots lightning bolts out his ****".

Again, that said, I'd be keen to see DE Psykers, but not of such a conspicuous nature.

Perhaps a sacrificial thing would work, where the 'lord' sends part of his own soul 'into' the power, almost like combat drugs. This way, he doesn't tap the 'Sea of Souls', rather his own...or someone nearby...or a slaves...

That could work, but being in plain and blindingly obvious sight of the enemy of your entire race probably isn't the best way to go(ie drawing power directly from the warp...unless you can stand the attention of Slaanesh).

EDIT: According to a couple of sources:
1- Psychic isn't the same/doesn't work in the webway. You're almost entirely cut-off from the warp(but not entirely).
2- Slaanesh's 'drain' on the DE was only very slight inside the webway as compared to being in the real world.
:. The webway is protection in these case, but also a detriment from a 'certain PoV'.

Xisor

Brimstone
27-12-2005, 04:59
first of all DE suck ass second who the hell cares about DE and Third get a ************ stronger army

That kind of comment is unwelcome and unwanted on Warseer, do it again and you'll get a strike.

I'm going to temp ban you for 24 hours, when you return please ensure you read the FAQ to avoid this becoming a permanent thing.

IncubiLord
27-12-2005, 05:01
So is the farseer/warlock's spirit stone supposed to offer some protection from chaos attention when they use psychic powers?
I'm not incredibly well-versed in Eldar fluff, but I don't remember anything like that. What makes a DE psyker a different case from an Eldar psyker?

Xisor
27-12-2005, 06:50
Nothing, essentially. Perhaps discipline, perhaps training. The main difference(unless I'm reading it all wrong, which is entirely possible) is that the normal Eldar don't suffer 'soul draining', or it hasn't been noted. They were spirit stones to save their souls. Presumably, to me, the spirit stones protect their souls in a way that DE don't benefit from as they don't wear spirit stones.

I believe the mechanic of the SS in game also indicates protection from Daemons, which'd suggest to me again that it has something to do with Craftworlder/Corsair 'protection form Slaanesh'.

I could be wrong though, as I say.

IncubiLord
28-12-2005, 03:32
How about limiting the overt powers to the webwights. Any psykers who may be loyal to them for protection would practice their abilities discreetly to avoid notice.
If we can get a good fluff source that says the Eldar have some sort of protection, DE psykers may suffer greater perils of the warp or something, but I'm hesitant to change this before I'm sure their situation is much worse (with regard to slaanesh) than that of their "good" cousins.
Slaanesh may actually prefer leaving them alone, as the DE do willingly feed her thirst. It's just this side of worshipping her...

Easy E
28-12-2005, 05:26
Mandatory "Thrall Wizards" (see Codex: Chaos) that must be used up in order for the DE psyker to use his power maybe an option as well.

IncubiLord
29-12-2005, 00:21
If it comes to that, I think I'd go with bottled souls.
There's precedent in the Crucible of Malediction, and I don't want a good CC leader wandering around with a dozen meatshields.

UlricDarksoul
29-12-2005, 03:33
maybe if the psykers got like al malfunction table they would fit on the "They don't live long" thing... as the combat drugs with the 3 choices... if you get the three same rolls, the character die, something like that.

Also for an antitank wych squad, have you thought of taking the idea of Stalin's exploding dogs? a beastmaster carries a pack of warp beast to the tanks, and thats it for the dogs? well... is just an idea

IncubiLord
29-12-2005, 05:33
Warp beasts aren't really fast enough to pull it off. Plus, they don't seem like the easiest thing to catch and train. Stalin's dogs started as a domesticated animal that was relatively easy to breed and rear.
Also, I'd like the HS choice to be a little more versatile than a single-use weapon.
The visual is nice though.

IncubiLord
01-01-2006, 04:22
OK, I double-posted.
Sorry, but it helps anybody who's subscribed to this thread know something changed.
Here's my current thoughts on changes to Haemonculus forces. There are changes to the Haemonculi, Grotesques, and Talos entries.

Sybaronde
02-01-2006, 12:56
What if you replace the Webwights (though they're not bad, I can't really imagine an Eldar with constant headache lasting longer then from the door to the gutter without having at least three gashes randomly inflicted on its body) with something like an Talos construction that uses others' psychic powers to create some sort of boom?

The idea I got is that you have somes S 7 T 7 creature with a odd device like the 'Willeater' or something. It's treated like a psyker in each turn it uses its device, and basically needs a psychic test to use a weapon profile:

Something like Range: 24" Strength: 6 AP: 4 Type: Heavy 1

So, the weapon aslo has a table, a sort of amplifier, which makes the device more unstable and not so safe whenever it 'drains' a nearby friendly or enemy psyker. For each effect the player desires, it rolls a D6. Each roll of 1 and 2 inflicts a wound on the construct and each model it drains on, but still fires of f the weapon at full effect. Should all dice be less or equal to 2, there's a cataclysm which wipes out all units in question and the weapon doesn't fire.

Here's a list of the effects I thought of:


Weapon gains AP 3
The weapon gains Heavy 1 Blast or Large Blast if 2D6 are used.
The weapon gains +2 Strength.
The weapon always wounds on 4+
The weapon gains rending.


Basically, the more deadly the weapon becomes, the more deadly it can be to everyone, friend or foe :p However, as it is, it seems a bit unbalanced, so I'd say that only friendly non-Troops infantry units can actually be eligible for 'draining' as well as enemy psykers. The effects seem all nasty, but essentially, you need at least 3 dice to make it really good, all depending of course. I.e. AP 3 and Large Blast is good against marines, but requires 3 dice, and the +2 Strength is good against Necrons in addition to previous mentioned effects, but it now requires 4 dice.

Oh well, my advice at least.

Syb

IncubiLord
02-01-2006, 15:45
I'm not quite ready to give up on my DE psykers yet, but this has some interesting potential. I'd probably class it as a Haemonculus creation, and it might actually be simpler to make this weapon a Talos option.
It's a lot to take in at once, give me a while to look at the gun.

Sybaronde
02-01-2006, 21:11
I'm not telling you to scrap the psykers, but I guess what I'm doing is suggesting something that I perceive as more Dark Eldar. Perhaps a Webwight is better put as a special character, due to it being a rare commodity imo.

Otherwise, yeah, I'd class this construct as a Haemonoculus creation too, since Talos machines are as well. A weapon upgrade for the Talos is nice, taking away the problem of unit inflation in the list.

IncubiLord
02-01-2006, 21:55
One of the biggest problems I see with this weapon is the possibilty for abuse against a psyker-heavy force. For example, against a Grey Knights army I'd run this as far in as I could and take all the options in the hopes of rolling low. Even if the weapon is destroyed, I would wipe out a huge amount of the opposing army. Likewise against Eldar with their farseers and warlocks.
This would be partially countered by the slow movement of the Talos.

The fact that the gun is barely worth shooting without multiple upgrades makes it a very suicidal option as well. If a player practically needs 3 options and each gives a 1-in-3 chance of a wound, the Talos would usually be dead from its own shooting by the end of turn 3. I'd look at cutting it down to rolls of 1 and dropping the auto-kill (3 wounds still kills a Talos anyway). Also switch to inflicting 1 wound on each unit it drained.

Wounding on a 4+ is almost never useful at S6, and made less so by the option of +2 Strength. Rending is also a poor choice when using a single shot gun (unless you take an Ord. blast) made worse by the AP3 option.
I'd consider a 2d6 AP option and something to deal with Inv. Saves (negate or lessen - probably a 1 point penalty) maybe add 0-2 dice for 6" range increases.

Sybaronde
03-01-2006, 12:49
One of the biggest problems I see with this weapon is the possibilty for abuse against a psyker-heavy force. For example, against a Grey Knights army I'd run this as far in as I could and take all the options in the hopes of rolling low. Even if the weapon is destroyed, I would wipe out a huge amount of the opposing army. Likewise against Eldar with their farseers and warlocks.
This would be partially countered by the slow movement of the Talos.

Well, the point is, already, to make it an effective anti-psyker weapon of sorts, only that it doesn't concentrate on killing the psyker explicitely, but exploits them for the purpose of killing its friendly models. It sounds in my oppinion true to Dark Eldar spirit (kind of inspired by combat drugs). So by all means, it's intent on actually killing models that count as psykers, if not slowly. However, perhaps, to balance it up, the rule could state that the player who takes casualties may select which models suffer, instead of the Talos doing a insta-suicide and in the process wiping out the Farseer and some warlocks - because that is where I see the most abuse potential.


The fact that the gun is barely worth shooting without multiple upgrades makes it a very suicidal option as well. If a player practically needs 3 options and each gives a 1-in-3 chance of a wound, the Talos would usually be dead from its own shooting by the end of turn 3. I'd look at cutting it down to rolls of 1 and dropping the auto-kill (3 wounds still kills a Talos anyway). Also switch to inflicting 1 wound on each unit it drained.

Yeah, I guess I overreacted to the potential of the weapon itself, so a D6 roll of 1 could be a better penalty count indeed. As for inflicting wounds on the enemy, it could be simplified by saying it could basically affect any non-vehicle model units, but then its potential kind of spikes up a bit, as it could sacrifice hostile manpower to fuel its weapon. However, this could be back-weighed by making the enemy unit to take a LD test (with modifiers), and each that fail count as being drained. Furthermore, the 'Willeater' could have an effect that once you're within a certain range, you get a -1LD modifier, so that it actually works against stuff that has LD10 (that has a large presence in 40k, usually).


Wounding on a 4+ is almost never useful at S6, and made less so by the option of +2 Strength. Rending is also a poor choice when using a single shot gun (unless you take an Ord. blast) made worse by the AP3 option.
I'd consider a 2d6 AP option and something to deal with Inv. Saves (negate or lessen - probably a 1 point penalty) maybe add 0-2 dice for 6" range increases.

Yeah, the weapon effects were kind of half-assed, as I'd barely given them much thought. A +D6 for AP and something to deal with Inv. saves sounds nice, as does the range bit, though it could get nasty.

Xisor
03-01-2006, 21:15
something like an Talos construction that uses others' psychic powers to create some sort of boom?

So, you feed Burnt Face Man to a Talos to harness his SONIC BOOM!?

Seems plausible...

Seriously. Sacrifice of psykers seems a bit more Dark Eldary at the moment, especially (to me) since (to me) psykers in Commoragh would be very discrete about using their powers.

Perhaps even just allowing an upgrade to the Talos to give it a psychicy effect that works to a 'bonus' on Daemons and Psykers. In fact...the Scouring...:chrome:

Xisor

jigplums
02-02-2006, 00:41
hi, i've had a quick scan through your stuff and would like to first say:
Well done, its a step in the right direction, de NEED some more effort if they are to become a force worth collecting. However i do have a big negative :(

Your "Revision" doesn't attempt to fix one of the most important things about de that needs addressing. Dark Eldar are broken.

Warriors are the same points as guardians with better ws bs and init. better gun in many ways and can take 2 "darklances" for less than 1 brightlance, They are move or fire but they are also hitting on 3's. they can also take 2 special choices of which blaster is the clear favourite.

raiders are cheaper Vypers that already have the lance, and can transport 10 guys, and have higher bs. vyper more customisable

Characters and wargear are some of the sickest in the game. SHADOW FIELD, AGONISER, COMBAT DRUGS. on init 8 model.

basicially if you make a really boring army out of warrior squads backed up by sick Characters in raiders They are virtually unbeatable. If the models weren't so dire i'd use them at the gt and never lose a game. I've use them vs loads of uber cheese lists just to show how sick they are to non- believers and always massacred.

IncubiLord
02-02-2006, 01:10
Yep, points revision is something that needs to be dealt with still.

It's the area I've been hesitant to tackle, as it is where the most playtesting will be needed.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough local attention to do a ton of playtesting myself.

I think the points issue really comes to a head in min/max forces, as the basic troop isn't incredibly impressive and was thusly made cheap.

It's tempting to say that the Eldar warrior makes up for his lower stats by having a superior basic rifle or that the eldar guardian is really over-priced, but DE warriors are a bargain and their 2-special + 2-heavy troops choice is a huge departure from the games standards. All that, and I'm only addressing one troops choice.

jigplums
02-02-2006, 11:07
yeah its a difficult one for sure....may become easier if the new eldar dex comes out soon as if guardains stay the same points you know its the warriors that are underpriced.

IncubiLord
02-02-2006, 18:17
Exactly.

I'm currently focused on the additions that seem needed. When the Eldar codex comes out (in September is the current rumor, iirc), the basic cost of a DE warrior would be much easier to evaluate.

Also, I think Raiders are in the same price range as Vypers because they're likely to get any unit in them badly maimed. There's a reason Raiders have been dubbed flying coffins. ;)

made_of_metal
03-02-2006, 03:27
The pyschic DE is an interesting idea but i just don't think it would work on fluff terms.
If you read it all the reason that the DE have the pull on their souls is b/c they live like the eldar of the fall. So they need other souls to give chaos or they get eat, as they should have been 10,000 years earlier. Craftworld eldar don't have the pull b/c they changed how they lived.
So there is always interest in the DE from chaos. They are always trying to eat their souls.

Then you look how CE use psychics. They have to use the runes as a buffer. Without them they get attacked and eaten. This is part of the seer path. The DE would not have that protection and the idea is any eldar that tries to use the warp without protection is almost instantly attacked by warp entities. Think what happens to humans but I imagine 10 times worse.

I just can't see how they would survive.
But you have done a good job on the army though!

IncubiLord
03-02-2006, 04:27
Well thanks on the latter, but I'd like to argue the former.

This is the point where I've taken the most criticism, but I still feel it's viable. If you start trying to tie together bits of fluff throughout the codex and a few general assumptions, there's actually a good chance of DE psykers being fairly common.

The fluff says that all souls shine in the warp, psychic souls simply shine brighter. Thus, DE/Eldar get the attention of warp entities based on potential and not whether or not they actually practice their powers. Thus the question really becomes "are DE capable of being psykers?"

Since they are just a different Eldar culture, the answer must be yes. That leaves only the discussion of who they are and what happens to them.

From the wargear entry of the Nightmare Doll, we know that some DE do practice psychic abilities, but it is a dangerous pursuit. Psykers are seen as better playthings/food.
This leads to the concept of subtle manipulators. A weak DE psyker would likely use powers that are unnoticed by those around him to avoid anybody discovering his abilities.

There is also a general implication that the ties to the Warp are weakened within the Webway, which is really why the DE live there. This really makes it the ideal place for beginning psykers to practise. They will be less likely to suffer daemonic predations.

What remains are the powerful psykers. The ones who have a Farseer-quality gift for the Art. Such a psyker would have great difficulty concealing his powers for long, he just gets too much from their use to pass it off as luck/quick reflexed/physical skill.

And that's where I came to the concept of Webwights (whose fluff still needs completely re-written). The idea is that the other DE don't catch every powerful psyker in the Dark City. Some manage to sneak away and become a being powerful enough not to fear the predations of their kin.

Webwights are meant to be the logical survivors of psychic predation in the Dark City. They are possessed in a manner similar to the possessed CSMs in that they have struck a bargain with a lesser warp entity. They retain control of their actions (most of the time), and are essentially half-daemons. Ironically, this also solves their problem with lesser daemons trying to eat them, as they have all the natural defenses of their symbiot.

Really, the existence of the DE psyker depends on how you view the Dark City.
If it's all just chaotic and evil, there's no way a psyker would last.
If the Kabals/Cults are organizations that improve personal safety, the DE psykers have a shot.

Since I see the Incubi, Wyches, and Haemonculi each with their own subculture within the DE society, I imagine the Mandrakes and psykers would have their own too.

Wow, this has got to be my largest post yet.

jigplums
03-02-2006, 13:01
i really like the idea of de psychers, just need an interesting way of introducing them, and making them different. I like the idea of Voodo-esque powers personally, with the rituals involved being the "buffer" to the warp. Maybe every power should have to be purchased like wargear, to use beacuase of the nessacary equipment needs to make the spells/rituals etc work.

I think they should also be another HQ choice. If they are powerful enough to use their powers openly, then they could lead a raiding party. Or join a raiding party of another if they are useful enough/powerfull enough. I think they should always have a bodyguard of their own, loyal[or brainwashed, bribed, scared] retainers and thrall wizards that the Psycher has taken into his confidence over the years whilst building his power.

Its all very well the de hunting out psychers, but when one is very powerful and with the right incantation boil your eyes inside their sockets and make your children attack you with murderous intent [or so the rumours go] Many will turn a blind eye.

It would also make for interesting scenarios, whereby one raiding force attacks another, trying to kill the psycher

Scorpio
04-02-2006, 14:51
from what i know the eldar are no longer turning evil in great numbers. maybe 1 or 2 at a time many of those are probalby caught. so skull kin wouldnt really fit the fluff:cries:

kidsyndrome
20-02-2006, 19:29
I really like the idea of DE psykers (as has been said quite a bit at this point) as I just picked up the beginnings of a DE army and noticed there was no psychic stuff in the army. Being a guard player this was disappointing; I'd hoped the DE were as mystical as their kin.

Now, from what I've gathered, there has to be some sort of buffer between the warp and the psyker (i.e. the CE use runes)... would it be fitting that the DE psykers would use rituals of blood and their own runes to protect themselves? They could cut their own flesh and use their own blood, or you could include a retinue for them to sacarafice to boost their chances? Maybe give them a low-medium leadership (8?), and they can gamble their wounds for an increase... give them 3 wounds and for each wound they wager they add one to their leadership for the psychic test. If they pass, they don't lose the wound. If they fail, they lose the wound with no saving throws. If you give them a retinue of sacrificial lambs, they could inflict a wound on one of their followers instead of themselves, though in this case it might be wise to only give the psyker 2 wounds and not 3, thus forcing them to use a sacrificial retinue to remain viable.

Fluff-wise, were a lord to find a powerful enough psyker, he might see that they could provide useful on a battlefield, and the psyker's bloody rituals would be a source of endless amusement. The weaker psykers are just killed by their brethren for fun. It kind of makes the life of a psyker depend on the whim of their Lord and how useful he finds them.

IncubiLord
21-02-2006, 05:13
I don't have a problem with the DE psykers having a very Dark Magic feel to them, but I don't really like making it a game mechanic.

While DE powers should probably involve using the skull of an unborn child or something equally disturbing, I think it should work like everybody else's powers in game terms.

And I'd like to stay away from Thrall Wizards because they have the potential to be abused as meatshields on a powerful CC character.

Fluffwise, I see it like this:
The Incubi have their own place. They contract out to other DE.

The Haemonculi have their own places. They contract out to other DE, sometimes for a long-term agreement. (reference the fight between the DE and the Eldar in the DE 'dex: the Haemonculus speaks up, "protected by his position with the Kabal")

One Uber-possessed mega-psyker later, the DE psykers have a place, and contract out to other DE.
Granted, there's only relative safety within a DE organization, but there would still be an obvious leader for DE psykers of any skill.

I've actually started a thread strictly devoted to DE psykers and daemons (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21687) over in 40K background to further this discussion.

kidsyndrome
22-02-2006, 14:16
I didn't get a chance to look through the part of your update concerning the Hellions...

did you do anythign to alleviate their situation vis a vis the hellglaive? I'm thinking that if it doesn't ignore the rapid fire rule completely (like a terminator) they should be able to choose between a standard splinter rifle profile or a 12" Assault 1 Splinter Rifle each turn. That way if they wanted to fire they could squeeze off a shot using the second profile, or if they wanted to stand and shoot they could use the normal profile.

I'm a big fan of the Green Goblin, and would love to see these guys get back to how useful they seemed in 3ed

IncubiLord
23-02-2006, 01:23
The Hellions are still up for some modification. I've never seen anybody use them, and haven't really decided what would fix them.

My first inclination is to make the Hellglaive always grant +1 Strength, but the Splinter Rifle part of it needs addressed as well. I'd say the simplest fix is to say that the Hellglaive may be fired as a Splinter Rifle OR a Splinter Pistol each turn, AND may be used in CC as a Great Weapon (+1 Strength, requires two hands).

Xisor
23-02-2006, 13:42
Why not create a new Statline for the Hellglaive altogther?

S3 AP5 12" Assault 2 * Grants +1 Strength in Close Combat.

Keeps it simply doesn't it? And leaves you the choice: 2 S3 Shooting + 1 S4 CC Attack, or 2 S4 CC Attacks?

Perhaps it could be +1S or +1A. The truth it Hellions must be more effective. Something simply isn't right with them. Their 5+ Jink save should be for both Shooting and CC, but only as 5+ Inv(represnting that they're both proficient at dodging/weaving/jinking in the air, and also they're still wyches in close combat...just on a board....).

kidsyndrome
23-02-2006, 16:03
I like the idea of the new statline, and it looks pretty fair. I don't know about including any further changes to them... I feel the point cost they have is pretty accurate and they're useful with the modified splinter rifle portion of their hellglaive. I agree with making the jink save apply to both shooting and CC. This would represent weapons bouncing off their boards instead of their heads. I'm not sure how this might affect point cost, though... maybe raise them by a point or two each? I know the Refractor field for the IG provides a 5+ invulnerable save and costs the same as a tactical marine, so maybe taking half that or a little less and adding it to them...

Keeping in line with the fluff, though, I think the 5+ invulnerable should only qualify if the model moved or if it's in close combat; if it sits out in the open not doing anything it shouldn't have an invulnerable save. In that case quartering the refractor field cost might be an accurate point representation. So I could see a single Hellion being boosted to a cost of 21 points to incorporate the modified jink save. The cost of a hellboard under wargear would also have to be increased by 5 points (to keep it an easy increment, and to represent that the added protection is much more useful for a multi-wound model using it as wargear).

I personally love the idea of Hellions and Hellboards... I would love to put together an entire army of mounted fighters... two troops on raiders, Archon and Dracon on hellboards, several Hellion squads and reavers, homonculi on hellboards, wyches on raiders... that'd seem purty nasty!

IncubiLord
23-02-2006, 18:47
Perhaps it could be +1S or +1A. The truth it Hellions must be more effective. Something simply isn't right with them. Their 5+ Jink save should be for both Shooting and CC, but only as 5+ Inv
I agree that Hellions need work. Right now they seem as much of a dud unit as the Mandrakes in the DE codex (speaking of which, anybody notice that DE player who fought the Tau? He was trying to lose!).

The Jink does need to be just "the model gains a 5+ Invulnerable save", but I think it should be limited to when the model is moving or in CC (like Ravenwing jink or skimmers moving fast), and that would mean a points bump for the Armory entry.

I think we're on the same track with the Hellglaive, I just said it may be fired as a S. Rifle or S. Pistol so you could pick taking an extra shot when not charging or taking a single shot when charging. It would also seem fitting to let Hellglaive-armed models choose between a single +1 Strength attack and +1 Attack. This would add some versatility. I might add to this the option of a Punisher instead of a special weapon, and allow a second special weapon if the unit numbers greater than 5.

To make Hellions a truly competitive choice with Reavers, they may also need the option of buying Furious Charge. That would make both units have unique strengths and uses.

I feel a revision coming up... ;)

kidsyndrome
24-02-2006, 21:12
How's that revision coming? :p

If you need any help, lemme know!

IncubiLord
25-02-2006, 05:38
Slowly.

Other things are getting in the way of me writing a ton of 40K stuff (this, my involvement in the Xenarch project, pushing along my Generic Chaos Codex concept...).

Hopefully I'll get the chance to work on it in the next few days, but don't expect too much of a big change.

The Haemonculi stuff I posted needs put in, the Hellions will be updated (unit and wargear), Webwights and Greater Webwights are going to be condensed into a single HQ entry, and the fluff for Webwights/Psykers and Skull Kin needs revised.

New toys may appear if my muse returns, but no promises there.

IncubiLord
26-02-2006, 20:44
Fresh Meat! Come and Get It!

Here's the latest version of the DE update, complete with a little file on what's new.

kidsyndrome
27-02-2006, 14:41
~ and Lo, the masses were appeased! ~ :p

IncubiLord
27-02-2006, 19:27
I'd hope so.

At this point, every unit in the codex has been modified at least a little, and some of the wargear, special rules, and fluff as well.

Comments on the new fluff would be appreciated... ;)

retro111
03-03-2006, 09:01
Just a thought: I browse the 40konline boards every now and then, and I noticed that they're in the process of debating rules updates for the codex, to be submitted to GW when conclusions have been drawn. It might be an idea to run your codex by them, both for criticism and playtesting. As for myself, I'll have to take a little time to digest some of the changes you've made and figure out whether I like them or not. :P

Their DE board is here (http://www.40konline.com/mos/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=833&board=2.0), and their codex update stuff is stickied at the top. Hellions, handily enough, are currently under debate.

IncubiLord
04-03-2006, 06:06
Thanks for the advice. They seem to have a larger DE following than I'm finding here.

I dropped in and started a thread. Now to wait while the scent of fresh meat spreads... ;)

Melchiah
17-04-2006, 06:10
Its been awhile since Ive played DE but Ive always thought that the Grotesques sould of been made like the ghouls/zombie in "28 days later" more crazy then mutated zombie.

IncubiLord
17-04-2006, 18:02
I agree, which is why you'll find that they have not been excluded from the revised Fleet of Foot entry for the DE army. It's in the FluffAndRules.txt.

They were also changed to the "Feel No Pain" USR to make them equally durable in CC as they are when shot (though less resistant to being shot than they were).

I do think it's fluffy that Grotesques are not trusted with a Raider unless they have somebody to keep them in check, though.

Melchiah
17-04-2006, 18:31
"feel no pain" makes me think back to "dawn of the dead" Zombies running around with no arms and legs at full speed just screaming.

IncubiLord
17-04-2006, 18:52
I was thinking more along the lines of certain primitive tribes who would drug their warriors so that colonial british officers could unload their low-calibre pistols into a charging man only to get cut apart anyways.

Basically I interpreted it as literally feeling no pain. You could lodge a bolt in his arm, but he'd still punch you in the face with it.

It would take an instantly lethal (or at least very-quickly lethal) hit to stop a grotesque. Being gut-shot wouldn't even slow them down.

Melchiah
17-04-2006, 19:38
Just had a quick read through the rules, about the webwrights, i thought of DE psykers more like captured psykers from slave raids then used more like say "pitbulls" and like that chick from the crow

Melchiah
17-04-2006, 20:47
K, just read through some more. Not sure about the terms "Vet squad" Assault squad" what about something less-SM. Maybe Elder Warriors (eldar eldar lol, say that 10 times fast) and maybe Headhunters. these are just shots in the dark and my own 2 sence of course.

IncubiLord
17-04-2006, 20:48
Thing is, there is no fluff on psykers that the DE don't eat, so we pretty much get to make up whatever we want.

I saw a sort of possessed/daemonvessel character as the way to go, but a lot of people seem to like the idea of pet psykers as well.

EDIT: Vet. Squad was used for a generic term.
I assume you'd call Wych Vets "Gladiatorial Champions" while Incubi Vets might be called "Staffmasters" (or something better than that spur-of-the-moment name).

Scourge Assault Squads could use a new name, but I'm not too worried about it. The concept is there, the name can change.

There's also Wych and Skull Kin Support squads, which could use cool names.

Melchiah
17-04-2006, 22:41
Skull kin does sound cool, skull-kyn? nah Skull Kin should be copy writen, get a shiny nickel from anyone who says it.

IncubiLord
18-04-2006, 04:49
<Strokes chin thoughtfully>

Copy-written you say? :evilgrin:

Achilles
15-05-2006, 14:43
@ Incubilord:
looks cool, so far...
little comments: i wouldnt give DE Psychers. they dont... 'need' them. Anti-psykers... Yes!

Mandrakes are a personal favorite of mine, and i think that fluff wise, they're more of a 'Cult of the Hunt', worshipping a ''Hunter God", much like Kurnous, but in his darkest state... I'd like their power not to be to much warp based...
Also... id think their special deployment rule should be Optional and limited to 1 unit per army (like the Space Wolf Scouts), and adding infiltrators & Scouts USR to their rules. or maybe lictor like deployment? (to good for a whole unit maybe)

I dont think the army needs an Incubi-Lord. just Incubi Armour for a lord...
the Amount units in the book are fine as they are, maybe a non-Wych fast attack unit, and another troop choice. I would like to see wyches and warriors switch between troops and elites, depending on your general/Warlord.

some units need a few upgrades (champs for mandrakes a.o.)but that seems a given

and its cool to see one disturbed enough to keep the fitght for the DE alive... more glory to ya ;)

IncubiLord
15-05-2006, 21:02
i wouldnt give DE Psychers.
Yeah, the DE psykers have met mixed reviews.

In all fairness, the Webwights have grown to rival the other Lords, so they should lose the bit about taking multiples of them as one choice, but I'm still trying to keep them around.

My lengthy explanation of why I think they should be there is post #44 on page 5 of this thread if you missed it.

Mandrakes are a personal favorite of mine, and i think that fluff wise, they're more of a 'Cult of the Hunt', worshipping a ''Hunter God", much like Kurnous, but in his darkest state... I'd like their power not to be to much warp based...
They can worship a Hunter God AND be fighting to retake their homeworlds from Chaos.

Shadow-skinned was attributed to Warp exposure in the 3ed BGB and hasn't been contradicted yet. I tried to avoid edition drift while at the same time giving them a better reason to be Warp-exposed than "Because they don't care."

Also... id think their special deployment rule should be Optional and limited to 1 unit per army (like the Space Wolf Scouts), and adding infiltrators & Scouts USR to their rules. or maybe lictor like deployment? (to good for a whole unit maybe)
Infiltrators with a Scouts move would be much too potent. They start 12-18" away, move 6 before the game, then get to move, shoot or Fleet, and then charge - putting them 18-24" from where they deployed. First-turn assaults are unbalancing, especially if they get their unit fixed to include a champion and something more than the CC ability of a basic Warrior.

The Lictor deployment, however, is just BAD. The Reserve roll means they don't usually show up until the rest of the army is already there. I played 2-3 Lictors in an army with the last Tyranid codex, but now I refuse to play any.

I lean towards cutting down to 2 models for the hidden deployment and allowing them to Fleet.

I dont think the army needs an Incubi-Lord. just Incubi Armour for a lord...
WHAT!?! No Incubi Lord? The psykers are one thing, but no Incubi Army?

On a more practical note: The Incubi Lord is the only one with a 2+ Armor save for a few reasons. The first is that he's the best of the Incubi and his gear is bound to be superior. The second is that I don't want the standard DE HQ choice to become a 2+/2+ model. Next is the fact that such heavy armor seems totally unfluffy for a Wych and shouldn't be common enough to be bought by every succubus and sybarite out there.

Perhaps he should be made more of a change from the DE Lord than he currently is, but dropping him altogether and adding a 2+ armor to the armory doesn't really work, imo.

the Amount units in the book are fine as they are, maybe a non-Wych fast attack unit, and another troop choice. I would like to see wyches and warriors switch between troops and elites, depending on your general/Warlord.
The standard choices are fine for a standard army, but you really have a handful of factions represented in the DE codex, and each deserves to be playable without falling back on the others. Haemonculi armies, Wych Cults, standard Kabals, and the Incubi each deserve a unit of every type so that you could play just them if you wanted.

With the current options, the codex doesn't really allow themed forces, and I doubt there will be a supplement to the DE codex for Cults and Kabals like there is for the Craftworld Eldar. The system I suggest allows for a variety of lists without going into a complex trait/doctrine system or breaking the army into multiple codices.

some units need a few upgrades (champs for mandrakes a.o.)but that seems a given
And if you've had the opportunity to review the changes made to those units, I wouldn't mind some C&C on that either.

Thanks for the response, and I hope you're disturbed enough to fight the bad fight as well. ;)

Achilles
16-05-2006, 09:44
Infiltrators with a Scouts move would be much too potent. They start 12-18" away, move 6 before the game, then get to move, shoot or Fleet, and then charge - putting them 18-24" from where they deployed. First-turn assaults are unbalancing, especially if they get their unit fixed to include a champion and something more than the CC ability of a basic Warrior.

yeah your right, offcourse... i should have said infiltrate OR scout (and I tend to go for scout)


WHAT!?! No Incubi Lord? The psykers are one thing, but no Incubi Army?

On a more practical note: The Incubi Lord is the only one with a 2+ Armor save for a few reasons. The first is that he's the best of the Incubi and his gear is bound to be superior. The second is that I don't want the standard DE HQ choice to become a 2+/2+ model. Next is the fact that such heavy armor seems totally unfluffy for a Wych and shouldn't be common enough to be bought by every succubus and sybarite out there.

Perhaps he should be made more of a change from the DE Lord than he currently is, but dropping him altogether and adding a 2+ armor to the armory doesn't really work, imo.
Its a personal thing maybe, but I believe Incubi's should stay as they are: a special retinue for the lord. allowing them to be fielded as units, although VERY cool, would be to much. it removes a bit of their 'mystery'. they should be so expensive to hire for a dark eldar lord, so special, that few can affort whole units of these ultimate warriors. Now when I said Incubi armour should be an wargear item for the Dark Eldar lord, i meant Only the lord. not the wych lord or a heamonculi. a 'one per army, Dark eldar lord only' Item. O, and not 2+... 3+! more than good enough for the fragile lord. 2+ armour saves should not be in the most fragile army in the game. the shadowfield is bad enough! (fail that once and ur lord is dead most of the time anyway :evilgrin: )
I know it may be cool to field themed armies, and I usually play that way myself. But to have a Heamonculi and Wych army next to the generic list should be enough.
giving the Incubi their own army would be like playing an all mandrake army... a Cool unit, but an entire army?
although considering your name... i understand why u would like to hahaha:p


And if you've had the opportunity to review the changes made to those units, I wouldn't mind some C&C on that either.

I like the 'Rending Claws' option for mandrakes... might be a good wargear item to. blasters for scourges is very very dangerous.... maybe to good. and agonisers or maybe powerweapons is a nice one for wych squads

And how about making grotesques available as retinue's for heamonculi's? switching regular 0-3 heamonculi's to Elites:evilgrin: (like inquisitors), keeping a Heamonculi Lord as HQ. and give him a special retinue of slaves and experiments Including a tortured psyker.
And an upgrade any number of regular grotesques to Uber (or large. and large cant be transported). Also, considering their uses in the previous edition, a rule similar to Grots?

destructor for the Talos? only on the multishot low setting then? and keep the wildfire rule? and i would prefer to see the talos as a monstrous creature. I know, that makes him much better against vehicles than he is now, but his current mode of attack is so random.:eyebrows:

so i wouldnt give the Army list so many new units... expand on the new ones, upgrade some current ones...
it might be a matter of personal taste, but i believe most armies should have and need: 2-3 HQ units (excluding retinues), 3-4 Elites, 2-4 Troops, 3-4 Fast attack and 3-4 Heavy support. Now as army lists grow Older, they grow in Unit Quantity but im not sure a instant mayor growth is a good thing...

adding 2-3 new units is much less risky for Game Ballance

so i would like to see in the DE codex: a 3rd Troop choice, A non-wych Fast attack and heamonculi lords.

but i would love to continue the discussion...

Achilles
16-05-2006, 11:41
Also... have u considered what makes Dark Eldar Dark Eldar...

their main traits (in my Humble opinion): the 3 F's
Fast (still the fastest army in the game)
Fragile (so little or no heavy armour)
Fearsome (like in the Terrorfex, trophy racks, etc...)
This means id like to see more Equipment/special rules dealing psychology based damage... (pinning, -leadership, etc.)
Also, i keep reading other player talk about how their soul goes to Slaanesh when they die... i thought this was not nessesarily the case. I though when a Dark Eldar was slain in combat another dark eldar consumes/absorbes his soul, becoming stronger in the process (Highlanderesque). am i wrong?

i'd also like to see a armoury section devoted to how disturbed they are: The Vices
for example:
Masochist: Character gets the Feel no Pain special rule
Sadist: Re-roll one failed to wound roll in CC per turn
Madman: Gets the Furious assault special rule
Necrophage: Cannot make a sweeping advance, but regains the amount of wounds lost up to the max starting for each slain enemy in combat.
Soul-devourer: +1 Starting wound (very old character)
Bodycrafted: +1 attack (extra arms e.a.)

i'd love your opinion...

IncubiLord
16-05-2006, 18:02
i should have said infiltrate OR scout
I actually like their current hidden deployment. It lets them move freely across the table, and it helps with the psychology bit.
"What's that over there?"
"It could be a Mandrake."
It just needs to be a bit faster for the unit to be more viable.

Infiltrate is the one I lean towards between it and Scouts, because I think it's more fitting that they show up all over the place.

Its a personal thing maybe, but I believe Incubi's should stay as they are: a special retinue for the lord. allowing them to be fielded as units, although VERY cool, would be to much. it removes a bit of their 'mystery'. they should be so expensive to hire for a dark eldar lord, so special, that few can affort whole units of these ultimate warriors.
...
I know it may be cool to field themed armies, and I usually play that way myself. But to have a Heamonculi and Wych army next to the generic list should be enough.
giving the Incubi their own army would be like playing an all mandrake army... a Cool unit, but an entire army?
If you ask me (and remember my name here) the Incubi are the most deserving of their own force. Wyches and Haemonculi are different, but still the sort of thing you'd expect from a DE army. Incubi just don't fit in.

Heavy armor and power weapons makes them usually a points sink unless you're running a WWP army, and their goals don't mesh well with those of the typical Dark Eldar. Incubi don't really belong in the DE codex because they aren't really a part of the DE, and when they pursue their own goals through force it would be quite a different sight.

I like the 'Rending Claws' option for mandrakes... might be a good wargear item to. Rending CC attacks aren't really practical. most people would splurge the extra 5 points to get a full power weapon. Plus, rending CCWs are really the Tyranids' thing. I'd consider making it available to Pack Alphas as well, but I don't think it belongs in the general Armory.

blasters for scourges is very very dangerous.... maybe to good. Perhaps, but Heavy weapons on Jump Pack models aren't practical at all.

And how about making grotesques available as retinue's for heamonculi's? switching regular 0-3 heamonculi's to Elites (like inquisitors), keeping a Heamonculi Lord as HQ. and give him a special retinue of slaves and experiments Including a tortured psyker.
And an upgrade any number of regular grotesques to Uber (or large. and large cant be transported). Also, considering their uses in the previous edition, a rule similar to Grots?
I actually like the 1-3 Haemonculi as an HQ option. Haemonculi just aren't usually powerful enough to be seen leading armies by themselves. Plus, they're too reclusive to HAVE large personal armies.

I did allow each to take 0-3 uber-grotesques as a bodyguard of sorts, allowing them to still join units, but I haven't looked at adding a tortured psyker option yet - that's food for thought.

No screening rule, though. You can toss them in front so that everybody has to test to shoot somebody else, but they aren't numerous enough to effectively be used as a human shield.

destructor for the Talos? only on the multishot low setting then? and keep the wildfire rule? and i would prefer to see the talos as a monstrous creature. I know, that makes him much better against vehicles than he is now, but his current mode of attack is so random.
Destructor is the Haemonculus acid-flamer.
I don't like making the Talos Monstrous, as it makes the thing too multi-purpose. Currently, it is pretty good at CC with most foot troops, but not meant to take on larger tanks. The option I suggest adding is a tank-hunting specific weapon which isn't as practical against smaller armored foes. Essentially, I want the unit to have to pick what its purpose is, though the Destructor and Buzz Saw combo would be pretty flexible.

i wouldnt give the Army list so many new units >snip< most armies should have and need: 2-3 HQ units (excluding retinues), 3-4 Elites, 2-4 Troops, 3-4 Fast attack and 3-4 Heavy support.
That's pretty fair, though I contend that every army needs at least 2 of each unit type (except HQ - only 1 of those) that do not belong to a very specific sub-sect. I also see more options as usually a superior codex. Combining the two, HQ is fine and there needs to be 1 more Elites, 2 more Troops, 2 more FA, and 1 more HS.

However, I see the DE codex more like trying to put all the Inquisition codices in one book. These really aren't the same forces, and like the GK and SoB, each Cult really deserves enough options to be fielded alone. I'd be more inclined to take most the 0-1 units out of the generic list and leave them in a section of units only allowed when using the Personal Guard rules.

im not sure a instant mayor growth is a good thing...
That depends on if you consider the DE codex a finished product - which I don't. The DE codex is an army concept that wasn't fully expanded before they released it. The fact that they didn't think to add any Vehicle Upgrades to the first release is good proof of that.

This means id like to see more Equipment/special rules dealing psychology based damage... (pinning, -leadership, etc.)
Unfortunately, the Hive Mind and the high Ld of SM armies killed most psychology effects in 40K. They just don't work against a chunk of the enemy forces. I'm not sure this could be expanded upon much without stealing the Ld-drain rule used by Pariahs and the Culexus Assassin.

Also, i keep reading other player talk about how their soul goes to Slaanesh when they die... i thought this was not nessesarily the case. I though when a Dark Eldar was slain in combat another dark eldar consumes/absorbes his soul, becoming stronger in the process (Highlanderesque). am i wrong?
Really not on-topic here, but I like to talk so we'll quietly work it in.
Slaanesh eats unclaimed Eldar souls. If you drift into the Warp, Slaanesh will eat you. Slaanesh also seeks out still-living Eldar's souls to try to eat them anyways. If a DE is not eaten by another, Slaanesh is likely to get the pleasure.

Eldar use spirit stones both as a charm to keep Slaanesh from chewing their still-living soul and a jar to hold their soul when they die. I think of the spirit stone as kind of a soul bubble generator. Your soul is kept away from everything because it's inside the area of influence of the attuned gem - when you die your body no longer holds your soul, so it can't pull your soul out of the protective bubble.

DE eat souls so that the slow gnawing of Slaanesh upon their soul while it's still in their bodies won't kill them. Eating souls seems to be regenerative for a DE, and DE souls are apparently much more potent as they age/gain power.

The bit where the debate lies is whether DE eating souls is directly feeding Slaanesh or not.
Some seem to think this feeding is like being on Slaanesh's dinner-plate and offering a morsel you stole from elsewhere if Slaanesh just doesn't eat you.
Others think that it's more a matter of gathering soul-energy into one's body so that the slow erosion of your essence doesn't affect you.

I tend to side with the latter, as the DE aren't likely to fight amongst themselves as they do if every eaten soul goes right to Slaanesh - it's just too much of a horror to contemplate risking one's life if you're assured that you're going to the Eldar equivalent of Hell.
My post here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=503403) might be of interest to you as well.

i'd also like to see a armoury section devoted to how disturbed they are: The Vices
for example:
Masochist: Character gets the Feel no Pain special rule
Sadist: Re-roll one failed to wound roll in CC per turn
Madman: Gets the Furious assault special rule
Necrophage: Cannot make a sweeping advance, but regains the amount of wounds lost up to the max starting for each slain enemy in combat.
Soul-devourer: +1 Starting wound (very old character)
Bodycrafted: +1 attack (extra arms e.a.)
Nothing stops one from also being another, so I'd assume that cost would be the limiting factor here. Bodycrafted and Masochist are really the domain of Haemonculi-oriented forces, and Necrophage is too potent. Otherwise, this is an interesting concept.

Achilles
17-05-2006, 11:44
why do you see such difference between DE sub-sects? i always thought of the DE Army as a Strong, vicious leader and whatever units he could lure to him or pay to fight for him. heamonculi usually follow a Archon or Archite as protection to be able to continue their experiments and crafts.

I like the mandrake rule very much, and i dont want it gone... but have u ever seen someone play with 3 units of 10? mad.... i meant keep the special deployment limited to 1 unit of mandrakes per army, similar to the special deployment of Space Wolf scouts. and give the rest infiltrate OR scout

and about some 'Vices': bodycrafted is being done by the heamonculi, but to whom... Decapitator is not a Heamonculi, is he...

I always thought Dark eldar eat Souls for the same reason as CE use spirit stones: to keep those souls from slaanesh. And in the DE case, become stronger in the process.

And i agree, and find it a shame, but Ld is not much of a factor anymore in 40K... fearless is a to common skill. so maybe other ways to, Rule-wise, use that effect the Dark Eldar have on people.
Like losing attacks because of psychothropic agents. even a Khorne Berserker would hit less if he keeps seeing more things than that are there.
items that force opponents to charge certain things, disembark, lose attacks, mis rounds of shooting, e.a. (maybe in the form of grenades, or using that tortured Psycker). Thus giving the DE the ability to, to a certain extent, control an opponents Army. very fluffy, and cool (if balanced correctly offcourse).
i still believe Fearless should be useless if someone is messing with your mind.

And, im saying this with a smile, i still dissagree the Incubi need more... they should stay the rare, mysterious unit, the lord had to spend an arm and a leg to get them to fight for him (maybe literally). but maybe the Incubi master needs a bit more work... dare i say it... Exarch powers? if they really are the remnants of Ahra's followers, they are the only Dark Eldar walking a Path. I agree with u they are not a normal part of DE society, and probably have their own base of opperations somewhere in the Webway, but i think some of them, if not most, LIKE the life of the dark eldar since it gives them the best opportunity to test their martial skills.
should they stay a retinue or a sepparate unit? there is this nice fluff story in the codex about a lord sending his incubi to dispatch a unit of Striking Scorpions... so a seperate unit should be possible. But i really like the restriction of them being a retinue, makes u think twice of using them. So... If Incubi Armour were a wargear item, u could field a Dracon with an Incubi retinue as a seperate HQ choise... makes it verrry difficult to use em.
Consider them in the same catagory as Ork Nobs. u wouldnt wanna see Nob units as Elites, would u?

but i still can see ur 'personal' interrest in the Incubi :D

Cruentus
17-05-2006, 18:02
I have to first off tell you that I appreciate all of the work that has gone into this. I'm a recent convert to playing Dark Eldar, and think that the codex works fairly well (in certain areas), and doesn't need an entire makeover. Someone mentioned the 'good idea, bad execution', and I think they're right. As the second codex released for 3rd ed, they definately skimped on the development of the rules.

I think the codex is very playable with minor tweaks, that might even be accepted by your local group:
1) HQ: Archon/Dracon: Have a 4+ armor upgrade in the armoury. I don't see them having access to Incubi Armor (too slow), but something equivalent to a 4+ would work.

2) Haemonculus: Have them be 1-3, as normal, but when they join a squad, they lose the IC status. This would allow them to be fielded in Grotesque squads without being able to be picked out in cc (pursuant to the Grotes comments to come)

3) Mandrakes: Keep them as they are, but add 'scissorhands' or 'poisoned blades' for +1 point, or free. They are the cost of a marine after all. Keep their movement for as many squads as you want (if you want to take them over Wyches, more power to you)

4) Grotesques: either remove the ridiculous 'must be accompanied by an IC' from their abilities, or increase their Ld. Otherwise, use the Haemonculus mod above, and specify they can be joined to squads pre-game for purposes of escalation.

5) Talos: remove the penalty for ending movement in terrain/leaving it. I think it is sufficiently slow to warrant ignoring terrain. Change the sting to a Shuriken Cannon at the worst, or to a shredder, or even a disintegrator (low power). The fact that you can't focus firepower on a squad is a pain (in mechanics and effect).

6) Scourges: I don't understand the idea of 'jump-pack' heavy weapons. Either give them the ability to take ccw/sp, and blasters and shredders, or allow them to be fielded as a Dev squad at lower cost sans jump pack.

I think that these 6 changes, while minor, would go a long way to straightening out the Dark Eldar. The other that was mentioned in the thread was the necessity they they revamp the psychology rules in 40k. As it stands, most things are immune to pinning, terror, fear, etc.

I think that between all the wargear and the additions to wargear and vehicle upgrades really did a lot of good for the DE. Also, if they do half as good a job on the new DE models (circa 2009), as they did on the new eldar, it'll be worth the wait.

Sorry if this has all been covered, I didn't read all 8 pages of the thread.

SmellyOrc
18-05-2006, 00:06
Preach on brother, I agree whole heartedly with all 6 of your revisions, but I think something needs to be done with Vect as well. He's not worth the points as he is; I'd remove his status as a walker in CC and actually let him be "a very special ravager" so he can leave CC if he needs to and give his "bodyguard" dark lances, or at least blasters! A 3 dark lance, 2 disentigrator ravager with 14 armor all around (at range), that is worth the points! Come on, he is the BIG lord after all. I just fear I won't see another Dark Eldar Codex in my lifetime and I'm only 34!

Zzarchov
18-05-2006, 02:25
Ive always thought the Talos movement rules were well..retarded.

I'd like to see it made into a monstrous creature (perhaps even a weaker one) with a Jetpack. Even a S6/T6 MC with a Jetpack ,though weaker than other MC's would fit in alot better with the DE play style in my opinion, I often see them not taken because they kinda don't mesh with most DE play styles..in addition to a crummy model.

Cruentus
18-05-2006, 15:07
Well Smellyorc, I'd 37, so I've got less time left to wait ;)

With the changes that seem to be going on for Special Characters, I'm not sure what they have in store for Vect. Trying to meld a vehicle and a walker is kind of awkward. I'd be all for some foot and jetbike Special Characters (like Decapitator and Lelith).

And while the models are a little funky in spots, I think this had more to do with rushing them into the 3rd edition.

So, with the eldar getting their codex, does that officially make us the "oldest codex in the game"?? (A title I think we have regardless, and no, the codex update doesn't count) ;)

IncubiLord
18-05-2006, 20:12
why do you see such difference between DE sub-sects? i always thought of the DE Army as a Strong, vicious leader and whatever units he could lure to him or pay to fight for him. heamonculi usually follow a Archon or Archite as protection to be able to continue their experiments and crafts.
You've got the half the image there, imo. Sure, a Kabal is the personal army of a warlord, or maybe the personal armies of a couple of warlords who work together so they can rival the likes of Vect, but a warlord is likely to keep his type of warriors with him. An Archite leads a Wych army and all that.

As to why I see them as so different, it's just the feeling I get from the fluff.
Vect leads a Kabal, Lelith leads a Wych Cult, the Haemonculus in that story where they fight the craftworlders talks down to an Archon with no fear of the warlord's anger (making it pretty clear that Haemonculi are a seperate group who take care of their own if you ask me), and that blurb next to the rules for Vect practically says that Cults, Kabals, and the Haemonculus order are mutually exclusive organizations (it say explicitly that Haemonculi do NOT belong to cults or kabals).

i meant keep the special deployment limited to 1 unit
Spoilsport. :p

bodycrafted is being done by the heamonculi, but to whom... Decapitator is not a Heamonculi, is he...
Decapitator is a special character, and meant to be unique. I assume he had to spend a good deal of time with the Haemonculi to end up wth 2 grafted arms.

I always thought Dark eldar eat Souls for the same reason as CE use spirit stones: to keep those souls from slaanesh. And in the DE case, become stronger in the process.
DE mostly eat the souls of other races. It's not a benevolent act either...
However, it can be argued that eating an Eldar soul would destroy the remaining awareness and thus protect the "victim" from suffering the attentions of Slaanesh. Check out the link in my last post for more on that. It is fun to find reasons that being evil is the best thing to do.

Like losing attacks because of psychothropic agents.
...
i still believe Fearless should be useless if someone is messing with your mind.
But the DE don't really mess with your mind. There's no fluff on holograms and Hallucinogen Grenades being used by the DE (that's more the specialization of the Harlequins), they just like to make sure the general populace is good and scared.

maybe the Incubi master needs a bit more work... dare i say it... Exarch powers?
Hehehe...
Exarch powers..
Ahem. Yeah, there's something to think about there.

a retinue or a sepparate unit? there is this nice fluff story in the codex about a lord sending his incubi to dispatch a unit of Striking Scorpions... so a seperate unit should be possible. But i really like the restriction of them being a retinue
...
Consider them in the same catagory as Ork Nobs. u wouldnt wanna see Nob units as Elites, would u?
They're more like Skarboyz, and check out the Goff army variant on the Orks. ;)
Really, though, I see them more like Grey Knights. They're comparatively very pricey, and they should only show up in small numbers unless you actually see one of their actually armies.

@Cruentus: If we're going to dream, we might as well dream big. The small changes you suggest would touch up the units which need it most (except Hellions), but in the end you aren't changing much (which is sort of your point, but not my take on the situation).

I would say that I don't think poison really fits the Mandrakes, which is why my suggestion is allowing a couple of them to take Rending weapons (not as good as power weapons, but still dangerous).

Also, since the updates don't count, we've been the oldest codex in the game since the new SM codex came out. They were first, and we were second.

McGonigle
18-05-2006, 23:58
Firstly Psychic powers I like the concept of Dark Eldar Psykers but the power list doesn't really cut it.

Telekinetic Boost seems tactically useless in a Dark Eldar force, if your investing 10/5 points and your only psychic power slot for what a 5 point item (ten if you want the extra attack) in the same list does better.
If you were to combine it with a power weapon the agoniser is cheaper and more useful most of the time (abit slight worse against lower Toughness) Plus it doesn't seem dark Eldar to me
Similar with the Psychic Weapon, its probaly more useful but it's a marginally different close combat weapon in a listy with a nice selection of real ones.

That makes three powers to boost the webwrights CC power and The list has more than enough choice in close combat characters as it isso the webwrights could be turned into a more interesting unit.

Overall the powers list reads more like the powers of charmed than a Dark eldar list. Read the Witch hunters powers if you have the codex, it has an overall theme behind it and the DE ould really do with something similar

Don't get be wrong call deamon fits the bill perfectly, although perhaps could be given a different name and Soul Leach fits the idea as well. Psychic ward could easily be fixed with a fluff change But the overall list needs to fit the Dark Eldar as a race better.



But the DE don't really mess with your mind. There's no fluff on holograms and Hallucinogen Grenades being used by the DE (that's more the specialization of the Harlequins), they just like to make sure the general populace is good and scared.

Actually I beleive they do go beyond the normal scary that encompasses most of 40K :

The Terrorfax causes psychically enduced visions. There are another three references to leadership based tests because of their wargear. The Dark Eldar do seem to use some form of terror tactics but it seems to be soul based.

Sorry if this seems overall negative, overall I feel your doing a good job.

IncubiLord
19-05-2006, 01:57
Telekinetic Boost seems tactically useless
...
Similar with the Psychic Weapon
In retrospect, Telekinetic Boost was a bad idea. I really could have added a strength bonus to the Mutations and called it good.

I wouldn't miss psychic weapon if it disappeared from the list either...

Overall the powers list reads more like the powers of charmed than a Dark eldar list.
If we were talking about GW material, I'd sig that. :D

Psychic ward could easily be fixed with a fluff change But the overall list needs to fit the Dark Eldar as a race better.
I'm open to suggestions here. Any ideas on what they should have? Don't worry too much about game mechanics either, I can figure something out if I like the concept.


Actually I beleive they do go beyond the normal scary that encompasses most of 40K
True, but it all boils down to "I'm shooting you and it's scary," "you don't want to fight me 'cuz I'm scary," or (the odd one) "I look just like your true love - don't hurt me" (which seems like a bedroom-toy being used incorrectly).

I just don't want to step on anybody's toes here. Pariahs and the Culexus have their Ld-drain effect, and Harlequins (if they aren't being pushed to dark corners of the fluff) have personal holo-fields.

Perhaps something that automatically causes "Crew Shaken" on vehicles?

There's already pinning, test-to-charge, Ld-boost, outnumbering-boost, test-to-attack-in-CC, everybody-hits-better-in-CC, and penalty-to-nearby-enemy's-Ld items.

Sorry if this seems overall negative, overall I feel your doing a good job.
Meh.

You didn't criticize anything but ideas, and the tone wasn't overly aggressive. Negative is fine when you're asked to criticize, as long as it's constructive.

Achilles
19-05-2006, 11:14
But the DE don't really mess with your mind. There's no fluff on holograms and Hallucinogen Grenades being used by the DE (that's more the specialization of the Harlequins), they just like to make sure the general populace is good and scared.

but there is... Terror/horrorfex are the prime of such items, the shadowfield is Hologram tech, similar to Harlies. And in BFG dark eldar ships have a field which makes em look like friendly ships, until they are to close... (not that BFG is always trustworthy on fluff)



Perhaps a something that automatically causes "Crew Shaken on vehicles?

Thats Actually a very good idea... with no effect on Deamonic possesed Vehicles and the Monolith? and would it be a grenade or a new CCW/artifact? Like a blade which let u do that to vehicles and a 'Thunderhammer' effect in CC?



There's already pinning, test-to-charge, Ld-boost, outnumbering-boost, test-to-attack-in-CC, everybody-hits-better-in-CC, and penalty-to-nearby-enemy's-Ld items.

yes but they are all misplaced in my oppinion. and they dont drive the effect of a terrifying enemy home. (its just my :wtf: why is everybody Fearless rant). I have to read up on the Nightlords, as they use almost the same tactics.
@Incubi lord... Got MSN? PM me...:D

@Zzarchov
And a Jet-packed Talos? might be to good, but its not a bad idea

IncubiLord
19-05-2006, 21:05
but there is... Terror/horrorfex are the prime of such items, the shadowfield is Hologram tech, similar to Harlies. And in BFG dark eldar ships have a field which makes em look like friendly ships, until they are to close... (not that BFG is always trustworthy on fluff)
McGonigle beat you to that, though I'm no longer current on BFG. My response is in my previous post.


with no effect on Deamonic possesed Vehicles and the Monolith? and would it be a grenade or a new CCW/artifact?
I wouldn't do a grenade, since it would have trouble competing with Haywire, so it would have to be a CCW, a gun, or something like the Crucible of Malediction (where you would get one use per game but it has some serious reach and maybe it could affect multiple vehicles).

yes but they are all misplaced in my oppinion. and they dont drive the effect of a terrifying enemy home. (its just my :wtf: why is everybody Fearless rant). I have to read up on the Nightlords, as they use almost the same tactics.
@Incubi lord... Got MSN? PM me...:D
Nightlords don't get anything worth mentioning.

I think if you got the opportunity to play against a non-fearless army (Witch Hunters or IG without the right doctrines), you'd find that taking an abundance of Sybarites/Succubi with the psychology-based gear interesting.

The thing is, all the armies DE face are uber-jaded, fear-nothing, I've-saved-the-world-a-few-times heroes. Playing the terror aspect doesn't work well against these guys, so all the evil head-games are left for when the fighting is over.

As to MSN: Thus far I've managed to avoid using IM stuff pretty well. I already spend more time at the computer than I should.

McGonigle
20-05-2006, 00:36
Yep unforetuneatly Night lords are fairly pitiful in that regards.

Well for fear based ideas that don't step on other people's feet:

"All alone."
The Webwright fills the victims mind with visions destruction and loss, decieving them into believing they are the only ones left standing
This power may be used at the beginning of either the shooting or close combat phrase until the end of the turn this unit may not benefit from any special rules conferred by the presence of a model outside of the unit.
(e.g. Rite of Battle, Voxes, Banner, Tau Etherals, Ork's under this effect can't mob up etc)

I think I agree with Achilles rant on fearless being to common, and that LD tests seem to be slowly knocked down to the ranks of Guard.

"Master of fears."
The Webwright has spent Millenia discovering how to break even the greatest individuals, though unusal fears and even calming techniques.
This power may be used at the beginning of either the shooting or close combat phrase. On a unit within 15 inches, untill the unit moves out of range or the webwright uses the power again on a seperate target the unit takes all leadership based tests as a normal unit. "Roll 2D6 if the score is higher than the units LD value then it fails." It may not re-roll, automatically pass, choose the value, or roll under the number of squad memebers .

Both of these above powers have the balance advantage of being slightly tricky to use, they allow you to break units that would otherwise be difficult to break but you still need to put enough presure on them to fail the LD test.

Achilles
20-05-2006, 10:54
offcourse, now in the 4th edition we have a new rule: Entangled... pinning without test, even for Fearless units. would that be a rule to (ab)use for the DE?

IncubiLord
20-05-2006, 22:09
"All Alone" and "Master of Fears" seem good (though I might rename them as "You'll Die Alone" and "Lord of Terror").

I could just see a DE Lord looking down on the field and a newly-captured slave telling him that those are the Space Marines, and they "Know No Fear." (stupid little slaves :rolleyes:)

The Lord would, of course, laugh and use a translation device to reply, "Then they will know terror."

On Entangled:
I'm beginning to think about a bit of Arcane Wargear that gets to cause Entangled against troops or Crew Shaken against vehicles - probably something along the lines of a Terrorfex or Xenospasm, but with a much nastier payload.

Achilles
21-05-2006, 12:41
why not a barrage weapon which does that instead of treading on the path of the 'fex or spasm. sort of a unit upgrade along the lines of the CE heavy weapon platforms (like a psycho-webspinner?)

Indrid Khold
21-08-2006, 20:30
A few of my thoughts:


ARMOR:

As has been pointed out before, the Dark Eldar HQ choices REALLY need a 4+ armor upgrade. 5+ gets ignored by basically all smallarms in the game, and is frankly quite ridiculous to give to your fearsome leader. This might mean that the Shadow Field would have to be downgraded to perhaps a 3+ Invulnerable, but so be it I say.

As far as troops go, I think that one or both of these changes should be made:

1) A heavy (comparatively speaking) infantry upgrade giving them a 4+ armor save.

2) Giving them some sort of sophisticated shield or buckler that makes their 5+ save invulnerable. It would be strapped to the forearm (or just integrated into the gauntlet) to keep both their hands free for holding weapons. In fluff terms it would be a shield with a small darkmatter field (and anti-kinetic field) over its surface, capable of deflecting anything the enemy can throw at you if you can manage to get it up in time to block the shot.


WEAPONS:

The Splinter Rifle is ridiculous as it is now. A fast moving pirate force having a Rapid Fire weapon is, frankly, quite ridiculous. I understand why it is Strength 3, the DE are motivated largely by taking slaves and thus would need a weapon capable of inflicting non-lethal injury, but it really, REALLY needs to be an Assault weapon. Range 18” Assault 2 would be a good fix, I think.

Also, give them the choice of having a splinter pistol and close combat weapon. I can't believe they don't already have that.

It seems that the DE could also do with a variant of the Eldar Missile Launcher, though this is far from essential.


INCUBI:

In my opinion they should remain a retinue choice, and while I like the idea of Initiates, I think they should either be Elites or not include at all. I’d also like to see the Incubi Master become more Exarch-like, if not in terms of the game, then at least in fluff. An Exarch is a collective personality due to all the spirit stones their armor has absorbed, and I’d think an older Incubi would have sucked so many souls from his powerful rivals that a similar effect would be produced.

In game terms, this could mean that he would no longer have access to the Armory, but could instead choose from an Exarch-style power list.


GROTESQUES:

Because they are rather useless, I am in favor of ditching the grotesques as a unit choice altogether. Instead, squads and characters could be given the upgrade “Grotesque,” which would make them subject to the normal “Feel no Pain” special rule.


MANDRAKES:

I like the idea of rending claws and a squad leader. Just either rewrite their deployment rules or stipulate that they can't havea Webway portal.


ELITE WARRIORS:

For those of us who want to use an entirely Kabal army but don’t want to have a force made up solely of Warriors, there should be some sort of Veteran Warrior option. Perhaps giving them a 4+ armor save or more wargear options. The basic Warrior statline is pretty elite on its own, though, I wouldn’t change that.

PSYKERS:

As has also been pointed out, ALL Eldar are psychic. The Dark Eldar are even given a massive implied psychic power in their ability to drain souls. Here is a list of psychic powers I think would be characterful:

1. Vampirism: Since the DE fit the Vampire Counts niche as well as the Dark Elf niche, it seems they should have a power where they can inflict a wound on an enemy and take it for themselves (via soul siphoning). Probably best as a close combat power.

2. Visions of Torment and Joy: The Psyker exerts her influence over the puny minds of her opponents and fills them either with terrifying nightmares or wonderful erotic visions (remember, Dark Eldar are sensual hedonists, they’d know how to produce both effects). This would make the target unit either Pinned (Entangled, whatever) as they stop to enjoy themselves or Fall Back to escape the horrible visions.

3. Force Lightning: No evil psyker would be complete without Palpatine-style Force Lightning. This would be a basic shooting attack power.

4. Witchflight: Gives the psyker jump-pack movement.

5. Nagging Doubts: Since Eldar psykers are primarily concerned with buffing their own squads, it stands to reason that Dark Eldar psykers would have de-buffs against enemies. There could be a variety of subtle powers that reduce Leadership (making fear effects then easier to implement) halve weapon skill (like Wyches do), re-roll armor penetration checks, re-roll armor saves, and all sorts of nasty things.

DREADNOUGHT:

The Talos is a lame dreadnought substitute, I’d like to see a better one. If we wanted to keep the dread airborne, it could be like a combat-oriented Necron Destroyer, with an anti-grav platform instead of legs. I like Incubi Lord’s idea well enough.


FALLEN CRAFTWORLD ELDAR:

Maybe one as a special character, but that's it IMO.


ASSAULT SCOURGES:

Excellent idea.


HQ Options:

I like the idea of having multiple options, like Dark Eldar Lord, Incbui Lord, Wych Lord, and Haemonculi Lord. Each could provide a different troop type not available for the others. Such as:

Dark Eldar Lord: Veteran Warriors available as Elites.
Incubi Lord: Initiates (Incubi without power weapons) replace Warriors as Troops.
Wych Lord: Wyches are Troops and Elite, replacing Warriors.
Haemonculi: All units must take "Grotesque" ability. Whelps (to use Incubi Lord's term) available as Elites.

IncubiLord
26-08-2006, 05:49
Wow. That was a big post. Almost like some of mine... ;)


Dark Eldar HQ choices REALLY need a 4+ armor upgrade.
>snip<
This might mean that the Shadow Field would have to be downgraded to perhaps a 3+ Invulnerable

I did add Carapace Armor to the Armory, as well as power armor. Dropping the Shadow Field down to a 3+ might not be bad, but I'd have it only short out on a 1 or maybe not short out at all.

1) A heavy (comparatively speaking) infantry upgrade giving them a 4+ armor save.
This is the role the Skull Kin are intended to fill, though they're only Troops in a vanilla DE Lord's army.

Giving them some sort of sophisticated shield or buckler that makes their 5+ save invulnerable.
I think this one is a bit too much an invasion of the Wyches' domain. Their CC dodge is silly compared to an all-the-time Invulnerable save.

The Splinter Rifle is ridiculous as it is now.
>snip<
it really, REALLY needs to be an Assault weapon. Range 18” Assault 2 would be a good fix, I think.
I think Range 24" Assault 1 would work as well, but the craftworlders would probably cry.

Also, give them the choice of having a splinter pistol and close combat weapon. I can't believe they don't already have that.
This would have to have a cost attached to it. DE are built for melee, and making them CC armed is a bargain.

It seems that the DE could also do with a variant of the Eldar Missile Launcher
Missilegun, anybody? I like the idea of a stripped down one meant to keep up with the rest the army.

In my opinion they should remain a retinue choice, and while I like the idea of Initiates, I think they should either be Elites or not include at all. I’d also like to see the Incubi Master become more Exarch-like
>snip<
In game terms, this could mean that he would no longer have access to the Armory, but could instead choose from an Exarch-style power list.
Yeah. Looking back, the Initiates shouldn't be a standard Troops choice.

Now, the Exach-like Master is an idea, but a but what did you have in mind?

squads and characters could be given the upgrade “Grotesque,” which would make them subject to the normal “Feel no Pain” special rule.
Hmmm..
That could open up a whole new can of worms...

I like the idea of rending claws and a squad leader. Just either rewrite their deployment rules or stipulate that they can't have a Webway portal.
Yeah, they wouldn't lug anything that heavy in a combat situation.

there should be some sort of Veteran Warrior option. Perhaps giving them a 4+ armor save or more wargear options. The basic Warrior statline is pretty elite on its own, though, I wouldn’t change that.
A strictly Kabalite army would have access to the Skull Kin as Troops and Veteran Warriors by applying the generic Veteran upgrade to any of their Troops choices to get an Elites option.

Here is a list of psychic powers I think would be characterful:
1. Vampirism: Got that, sort of
2. Visions of Torment and Joy: Another psych-out weapon? Sure.
3. Force Lightning: When in doubt, fry it.
4. Witchflight: A little mundane, but no harm there.
5. Nagging Doubts: I like.

On Fallen Craftworlders: I don't think there's any specifics anywhere on how many there are/were, but I did refluff the Skull Kin to make them not entirely ex-craftworlders.

I like the idea of having multiple options, like Dark Eldar Lord, Incbui Lord, Wych Lord, and Haemonculi Lord. Each could provide a different troop type not available for the others.
This was the intention of the Personal Guard rules found in the Fluff and Rules section.

Indrid Khold
27-08-2006, 09:01
Shadow Field: I'd say make it a 3+ Invulnerable that never shorts out. Though I have to admit it IS pretty awesome to see your opponents face when you tell them you have a 2+ INvlunerable save... maybe it should stay as it is....

Exarchy Incubi Masters: Exarch armor absorbs the souls of its previous wearers to create a highly skilled warrior. Incubi Masters would literally absorb the souls of their challengers/predecessors to have the same effect. I'd give them a list of powers to add to their strength, or their squad's morale, or whatever. PErhaps we should wait and see what the new Eldar codex does with Exarchs first.


After looking over your list again, I gotta say that I really don't dig the Webwights or the Skull Kin.

Demons or anything chaosy have no place in an Eldar army (except for the Avatar ... hey that gives me an idea.... naaaah), and since Eldar have ALWAYS been portrayed as instinctive psykers, I think there should just be a psyker lord with psyker powers but less physical abilities than a standard Archon. They wouldn't be as good as farseers because they'd be more prone to getting yanked into the warp without runes or ghosthelms, but they'd be pretty nasty nonetheless.

The Skull Kin ... I dont know, man, I just don't like the idea. This is the Dark Eldar army, can't we leave the CW Eldar out of it? A stray ranger or two may filter into Commorrogh from time to time, but (if they survived) wouldn't they just be integrated into normal Warrior squads? Or even Incubi (in the case of former Aspect Warriors)? I prefer simply having veteran DE warriors with better saves.


I'd also like to comment on your interpretation of Mandrakes. I don't really see them fighting to reforge the Eldar empire. They're not really equipped for the massive scale of warfare fighting on a Crone World would take, and the first Codex portrayed them more as serial killers than Aspect Warrior-types that Arhra would form. I'd stick with keeping them as the scouts for Dark Eldar leaders, and giving them better equipment.

I would, however, like to see that same idea used for a Kabal featured in the codex. Sort of like the Dark Eldar equivalent of Biel Tan, except focussing on reclaiming Crone Worlds rather than Maiden Worlds.

Xisor
27-08-2006, 18:24
Having had more of a think on the topic, I think a prevailing Psychic power would perhaps be best for folks like Dracons and Archons. Mainlya 'soul vampire' type thing reflecting their highly advanced ability to rip folks souls from 'em(rather than the webwights and skull kin, I still ain't a fan I'm afraid!).

Can't think of anything good at the mo, but it's still a thought!

Xisor

IncubiLord
28-08-2006, 03:07
Exarchy Incubi Masters: Exarch armor absorbs the souls of its previous wearers to create a highly skilled warrior. Incubi Masters would literally absorb the souls of their challengers/predecessors to have the same effect. I'd give them a list of powers to add to their strength, or their squad's morale, or whatever. PErhaps we should wait and see what the new Eldar codex does with Exarchs first.
Sounds fine, considering the time-frame.


Demons or anything chaosy have no place in an Eldar army
>snip<
I think there should just be a psyker lord with psyker powers but less physical abilities than a standard Archon. They wouldn't be as good as farseers because they'd be more prone to getting yanked into the warp without runes or ghosthelms, but they'd be pretty nasty nonetheless.

Yeah, it looks like the Webwights didn't survive popular opinion. I'll reintroduce them in the home-made codex Crone World Eldar that somebody has goaded me into...

What about allowing the HQ choices that aren't Warlords upgrade with psychic powers?

As an aside, I'd say that most of them probably do have runes and rituals to help keep them safe and focus their power, but those are usually kept hidden.

The Skull Kin ... I dont know, man, I just don't like the idea.
>snip<
I prefer simply having veteran DE warriors with better saves.
All right, their fluff isn't the best. If we changed that, though, would the unit be what you're looking for?


I'd also like to comment on your interpretation of Mandrakes. I don't really see them fighting to reforge the Eldar empire. They're not really equipped for the massive scale of warfare fighting on a Crone World would take, and the first Codex portrayed them more as serial killers than Aspect Warrior-types that Arhra would form. I'd stick with keeping them as the scouts for Dark Eldar leaders, and giving them better equipment.
I don't know about the Mandrakes, really.

Their shadowskin is supposed to be from Warp exposure, and that would mean that they shouldn't exist any more after the casualties over roughly 10,000 years unless there's a ton of them or they're replenishing their numbers.

Working off that, I wonder what would cause these creatures to continue venturing into the Warp - one of the most dangerous territories to be (especially for psykers).

I'd say there's probably a Mandrake civilization of sorts within the Warp, and that those seen in the Dark City are really only the tip of the iceberg.

I'd like to see them as feral, but not simply beasts.

A kabal based on the same premise would be cool though.

I think a prevailing Psychic power would perhaps be best for folks like Dracons and Archons.
I don't know about that. I think what psykers do develop would be pretty unique. A standard power causes a bit of a united feel that I'd avoid.

(rather than the webwights and skull kin, I still ain't a fan I'm afraid!).
Yep, the Webwights are doomed. :(
The same question goes to you on the Skull Kin though:
Is it the unit or the background that needs fixed/dropped?

Easy E
29-08-2006, 03:02
Well, I think that the Fluff has to go. That's a large stumbling block for me.

The squad? I like the ccw and splinter pistol. I also like the 4+ save. Is this enough to make their own distinctive unit? What role do they play? Would they still be troops in a Dark Eldar Lord army?

I need more info to see how/why they need to exist, and how they will integrate with the army overall. At this point, I'm not sure.

IncubiLord
29-08-2006, 04:52
Is this enough to make their own distinctive unit? What role do they play? Would they still be troops in a Dark Eldar Lord army?

I need more info to see how/why they need to exist
They would be an Elites choice in a non-specific list, the armored counterpart to the Wyches that is just in general better than your average Warriors squad.

They would be available as troops in a DE Lord army if you used the Personal Guard rules, as these are the types that you would expect to be more numerous in a specifically non-Cult army.

As to how they exist:
They are sort of the natural progression from basic warrior to something more experienced. You pick up better armor and get some more appropriate gear as you learn the tricks of the trade.

As to why they exist:
They fill a niche as a more armored assault unit without being the near-heros that the Incubi are.

Or, I could be misinterpreting your questions...

Dat Wildboy
29-08-2006, 21:57
ok, i love dark eldar, but i find their fluff and army a little static and the models lacking style. i posted up this on the GW website forums, and has some of my ideas on the dark eldar and how i think they should be re-envisioned...

dark eldar are very very hi-tech. more so than eldar they managed to escape from the crone worlds and could take what technology they needed to colonise commoragh with them.

they should have more high tech gagets and weaponry. like harlequin weapons, but more focused to torture. a few shuriken weapons, but plenty of splinter weapons.

i'd like to see a psyker, but a soul sucking psyker, not something like a farseer which casts to help their units. something that gets into combat and decimates squads by sucking out all their souls. powerful but short ranged and asssaulty. and a craftworlder's captured soulstone to feed to daemons if they suffer perils of the warp

with technology, things like vehicle upgrades like the scythes, screaming jets, slave snares and torture amps, but new ones like upgradeed armour which maybe cuts into squad carrying capability. so getting +1 armour in all places, but cutting down to 8 models transport capability.

rending on weapons like hellglaives or whatever they're called. maybe a 'dark wraithbone' armour for characters. more things like shadowfields, maybe a 'mandrake suit' upgrade, where the character can infiltrate and gets a better cover save.

change haemonculi from torturers to more 'mad scientists' characters, experimenting on new techniques to improve souls and creating new weapons and creature. mandakes for example are wearing a mandrake infiltration suit seared to their bodies, keeping up the torture theme.

wyches being drugged up psychopaths which fight gladiatorial duels are fine fluffwise.

maybe grotesques upgradeable like chaos possessed squads are to make them more interesting. things like strength, speed etc.

talos' are fine as they combine haemonculi soul technology and sciences.

an actual tank would be nice

a robotic unit from the ancient past; from pre fall time. eldar had artificcial constructs to do stuff for them. so maybe a 0-1 choice in the army list.

i would like more backround on the dark eldar technology, science and survival. more about commoragh itself, rather than stories of raids and torture. we know they do that, but i want a race with more depth rather than 'we are evil and eat souls so we can't die' story.

i would like more influence on the tragic nature of the eldar as a whole; a longing for the glorius past, and a determination to survive the future when they can reclaim the galaxy. they aren't mindless savages; they are cold and calculating and should represent this; only wyches should run screaming into combat.

at the moment dark eldar are too self destructive, if they go down the route i have mentioned above it should give them more depth and realism, something we can like and relate to. i'd like to introduce a 'child snatching' element into them too. like normal eldar they aren't very prolific, so steal the children of eldar exodites and craftworlds they raid to raise in their own anarchic and torturous image. it gives them a mission- to convert eldar into the way they were and the way they should be. it adds even more depth and horror to the race.

i love the incubi as being a dark aspect if you like, so would have aspect like rules. an incubi master would be like a dark exarch, or as an actual HQ choice like an assassin. give them similar shealth capabilitys like striking scorpians and a powerclaw upgrade. i like them as being silent ghostly killers.

i like like the idea of factions inthe dark eldar society, the haemonculi covens, the mandrake pack, the wych cult and the temple of the dark father (incubi), all ruled over by Vect. cabals have to get support from all of these factions to actually succeed in commoragh, not becoming a slave or soul-food for the masters. getting on the wrong side of any of these factions would have terrible consequences, being torn apart by mandrakes, experimented on by haemonculi, slaughtered by wyches, ritually killed by incubi or your whole kabal consumed by Vect.

at the moment, the dark eldar are a bit 2-D and don't have much depth and growth behind their story. its basically static. nothing has changed at all.

IncubiLord
29-08-2006, 22:39
Interesting stuff, some of which we've talked about, some of which is a new take on the background, most of which I like fairly well - except:

all ruled over by Vect.
Vect as the King of the DE is a terrible thing that stagnates our race. It all has to be with Vect's approval or a plot against him if he's teh big, bad ruler.

The Dark City should be feudal, but in the sense that there are a handful of big Lords (Vect, the other Fall-survivors, a few exceptional younger ones) and several lesser leaders (heads of many kabals/cults/covens/orders). Most of the lesser leaders would answer to one of the big Lords (though a few would manage to remain independent of them), but there wouldn't be a biggest, baddest Lord that everybody answers to.

malika
29-08-2006, 22:40
Hmm this all sounds interesting...there is only one thing Im worried about and thats the whole vibe that it seems to have that this is somewhat turning into a "lets make a dark version of the Craftworld stuff" by adding "dark wraithbone", turning the Incubi into an official aspect and all that. I like the idea of Craftworlders who might have turned away...perhaps even limit this to a special character or squad which would be quite rare.

The more savaga nature of the Mandrake and the possibility of having "Mandrake communities" within the webway sounds very...very intruiging to me I would love to see more on that.

I dont know if Ive already tried to link this to the Anargo Sector Project, but perhaps that might be an interesting coorporation since we are also trying to "redesign" the Dark Eldar. Take a look for that here (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=452). The various aspects of Dark Eldar society should be more than merely "Wych Cults, Kabals and Mandrake Tribes"...personally I would like to see more ideological differences between these groups. but yeah like I said...perhaps a coorporation between our two little side projects?

Easy E
29-08-2006, 23:03
They would be an Elites choice in a non-specific list, the armored counterpart to the Wyches that is just in general better than your average Warriors squad.

They would be available as troops in a DE Lord army if you used the Personal Guard rules, as these are the types that you would expect to be more numerous in a specifically non-Cult army.

As to how they exist:
They are sort of the natural progression from basic warrior to something more experienced. You pick up better armor and get some more appropriate gear as you learn the tricks of the trade.

As to why they exist:
They fill a niche as a more armored assault unit without being the near-heros that the Incubi are.

Or, I could be misinterpreting your questions...

No, you answered my questions. I looked at the unit again to refamiliarize myself with it (It's been a while since I last looked) before posting. For some reason I though the Personal Guard rules would be standardized, but it's player's choice correct?

Anyways, the Skull Kin make a lot of sense as a unit. I don't object to the unit stats wise and for game purposes, however, as I said before the fluff needs some work.

Also, I agree the idea of the Mandrake tribes is very intriguing.

Dat Wildboy
29-08-2006, 23:14
in the codex it comments on fields which surround commoragh, i envision them as dark, shadowy covered with a thick carpet of brambles with iron hard thorns and black leaves. in this, the mandrakes live in feral tribes, hunting escaped slaves from the dark city, preying on each other, being captured by wych raiding partys to fight in the arena, or being hired as mercenarys by archons to fight for the kabal or as assassins, being excellent for the role as their cameleon skin and sharp claws and hightened senses. they kill for the kabal for pay- in flesh.

i'd like to think as them as the failed experiment to make a better dark eldar warrior- experiments in genetics and technology to increase the already deadly race. they have cameleon like abilities, bioconstructs and technological devices are implanted in their skin. their sharp fangs and talons mean they have little need for weapons. their elegant eldar bone structure is twisted to a stoop, but with their muscles changed too, the already strong and quick eldar form is a lethal weapon. now it is cat-like, able to climb and pounce and hunt without any training. seemingly perfect, these experiments had one flaw- the subject's minds degenerated into an animalistic state, becoming savage. in a test trial, the creatures killed their captors and creators and the beasts spread into the waste-fields around commoragh; the ultimate defense of shadow haunted by all manner of ancient defences and warp spawned beasts. unable to be recovered, the creatures bred and developed a similar yet separate culture to the commoragh eldar, but when re-discovered, they were incorporated back into the culture (with disgust, loathing but with need). mandrake's innate abilitys could be bought.. for a price in flesh. clever enough to deal with other eldar, but filled with a bestial frenzy in battle, mandrakes are stealthy killers which are important to the plans of any up-and-coming archon wanting more power inthe Dark City.

there, thats my mandrake fluff. any comments?

malika
29-08-2006, 23:20
Hmm...it stated that the Mandrake was basicly a mutated Eldar, corrupted by living between the Warp and reality...

We definately have to add some level of insanity and savagery to the Mandrake, in a more brutal manner than GW has shown us so far!

Dat Wildboy
29-08-2006, 23:47
next, incubi and 'dark wraithbone'

dark wraithbone should be captured wraithbone armour worn by the greatest dark eldar lords who have bested a farseer or warlock in combat and devoured his soul. the armour is taken as a trophy.

the incubi should be a cult, ruled over by the dark father ahra. it produces controlled, silent assassin warriors. in squads they form powerful bodyguards capable of slicing through any enemy, capable of striding into combat, dismembering the opponent, and slipping away into the shadows with their lord once more. the cult should steal or capture promising dark eldar children to train in their ranks. high ranking archons would send off one of their children to train in the cult to appease the dark father. in return they stay on the cult's good side and may be gifted wth a bodyguard, loyal and ambitionless depending on donations and sacrifices.

it is essentially a cult of khaine but in his aspect of the dark ghoul, the silent killer and devourer of heroes; this is disguised and only told to the fully trained incubi, when they pass the final iniciation and are shown the truth of the cult, that it is a cult of khaine and ahra is the fallen pheonix. none other than they know this; none of the cult speak at all, they are presumed to communicate telepathically to each other. however they do it, the incubi temple is always dark and silent, but none go inside uninvited, for horrors stalk the grounds and corridors. none who enter return alive.

because the incubi live an essentially aspect temple lifestyle, constantly training and perfecting killing rather than torture, they have no need to devour souls, and have no fear of slaanesh. if they are killed in battle, they expect their lord to devour their soul, for strengthening that which they protect is the ultimate sacrifice...

incubi are most hated by craftworlders as they are seen as a perversion of what they see as the 'right' way to live and survive. they are feared and respected by other dark eldar; no citizen of commoragh would dare cross an incubi. the price of it would be too high for the kabal. a thousand warriors as silent as death would descend upon the kabal, utterly destroy everything alive, slaves and all. the warp-scream of the mass ritualistic death would alert every eldar in commoragh like a fog horn- disobey the will of the dark father and be utterly destroyed. the souls would not be consumed, but doomed to be devoured by slaanesh. this would terrify other kabals to make sure their donations and sacrifices to the cult regular and plentiful so as not to suffer eternal damnation from slaanesh.

any good?

malika
30-08-2006, 00:15
Hmm you might want to look into this (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=426) discussion about the Incubi also :)


dark wraithbone should be captured wraithbone armour worn by the greatest dark eldar lords who have bested a farseer or warlock in combat and devoured his soul. the armour is taken as a trophy.
Then it should be an one per army piece of equipment...its not like they capture Farseers and Warlocks on a daily basis...


it is essentially a cult of khaine but in his aspect of the dark ghoul, the silent killer and devourer of heroes; this is disguised and only told to the fully trained incubi, when they pass the final iniciation and are shown the truth of the cult, that it is a cult of khaine and ahra is the fallen pheonix. none other than they know this; none of the cult speak at all, they are presumed to communicate telepathically to each other. however they do it, the incubi temple is always dark and silent, but none go inside uninvited, for horrors stalk the grounds and corridors. none who enter return alive.
Personally I would keep Khaine out of the Dark Eldar society, they would be too selfish for Gods! I'd rather see the Incubi as sort of the only source of "order" in this world of anarchy which is Commorrach...perhaps the Dark Father (he doesnt have to be Arhra per se) makes sure that Dark Eldar society doesnt collapse and only protects those who can afford it and are worthy to be protected.


incubi are most hated by craftworlders as they are seen as a perversion of what they see as the 'right' way to live and survive.
Why? They basicly do exactly what the Craftworlders in the path of the warrior do in this opinion.


they are feared and respected by other dark eldar; no citizen of commoragh would dare cross an incubi. the price of it would be too high for the kabal. a thousand warriors as silent as death would descend upon the kabal, utterly destroy everything alive, slaves and all.
I doubt a thousand Incubi could destroy an older Kabal, they might destroy the weak ones without that much equipment...but a relatively powerful kabal would have no problem dealing with a thousand Incubi.


the warp-scream of the mass ritualistic death would alert every eldar in commoragh like a fog horn- disobey the will of the dark father and be utterly destroyed. the souls would not be consumed, but doomed to be devoured by slaanesh. this would terrify other kabals to make sure their donations and sacrifices to the cult regular and plentiful so as not to suffer eternal damnation from slaanesh.

All the Eldar (and especially the Dark Eldar) hate Slaanesh, for some reason I doubt that the Incubi would feed Slaanesh in that way...with other races, perhaps...but we are dealing with the Eldar here, not humans or whatever else!

Dat Wildboy
30-08-2006, 00:27
next- haemonculi and psykers.

haemonculi were previously just tortures. this is a bit flat and boring. so here is my haemonculi fluff...

haemonculi. pre fall they were scientists, architects, philosophers; the intellectual elite who's ideas and technology knew no bounds. originally worshippers of the artisan god Vaul, as the eldar society fell into hedonism, their designs became more focused towards the pleasure of the eldar race. as the race fell deeper, they became more torturously inclined, experimenting even with their own people to sate their desire to build, create and decipher. many of he farsighted of them forsaw their doom and fled with those who would listen to live simple lives or on the vast starships called craftworlds. the others carried on as before, the artificial contructs long created in ages past serving them as they strived to please the masses who had ow resorted to violence, rape and cult wars.

when the fall happened, many of the haemonculi were destroyed, their souls being richer due to their vast intellect and more psychic awareness. a few, with a few of their designs escaped into the webway to build commoragh. under the leadership of an inspiring youth, former cult slave Vect, they built and designed a city in the webway, utilising the ancient biosphere techniques, building many gravity defying towers, protected by an endless expanse of iron-thorned plants, weaponry and spiked walls. inside would be the arenas of the wych cults, survivors of the blood cults. it was at this time the dark eldar discovered the gradual soul sucking of slaanesh. as ever, the haemonculi discovered a form of soul-grafting used before the fall. a terrible form of it which could drive someone mad and made them increasingly dependant upon it, the soul vampirism of soul drinking essentially a power using the eldar mind. since psychic powers were dangerous, leaving the eldar open to possession by daemons or preyed on by their own kind, they were repressed, the only one being encouraged was the 'soul vampirism'.

being pitied by the largely unaffected craftworld cousins, when this was discovered, the craftworlders shunned their dark kin. without any allies, the haemonculi worked on madder designs; fuled by the souls of their kin, they churned out many new types of exotic weaponry, many reverse engineered from technology lost during the fall. these included the dark lance and destructor.

realising they could not survive as a race of canninbals, the dark eldar strike out raiding parties to bring back the slave to feed from. it is discovered the weak human soul can be refined through torture. other things are created from this notion, including the talos and grotesques. mandrakes too (see other post). through bio-engineering, creature known for their poisons are cultivated for torture use and for weapons like the scissorhands and stinger.

basically, the incubi start off designing everything, but as their soul dependancy inreases, they lose their sanity and torture pervades their designs, until they eventually become little more than gibbering wrecks.
this happens to them unlike other eldar as they are more psychicly attuned, and the acts of soul drinking, while giving them longer life, has effects on the mind, being able to hear the whispers, thoughts, hopes, desires and dreams of those devoured at once. it drives them mad.

some haemonculi are gifted psykers, able to manifest their powers on the battlefield. they can bypass psychic defenses and rip a soul screaming from it's owner's body. these haemonculi may have created something that stops the spirit whisperings of the consumed, but are less affected by them. they often carry spirit stone looted from craftworlders. these treasures could be used to buy a squad of highly trained warriors to fight for the owner if given to an archon. the firey soul of an exarch is a delicious sustaining treat. but these psykers use them as wards. when attacked by a daemonic agressor, the soulstone is thrust down its gaping maw and fed to save the psyker himself. this act is also seen as the most foul act imaginable. many dark eldar think it unsavoury and are careful to deal with such psykerswho are loathed and yet needed in many situations.

how about it?

IncubiLord
30-08-2006, 00:36
OK, going back about three posts because I've had to indulge in a little thing known as eating...

Im worried about ... the whole vibe that it seems to have that this is somewhat turning into a "lets make a dark version of the Craftworld stuff"
Yeah. While there should be parallels it shouldn't be codex: Evil Craftworld.

I like the idea of Craftworlders who might have turned away...perhaps even limit this to a special character or squad which would be quite rare.
I think they'll be minimalized to a background element, mentioning that they join up with whatever group is appropriate.

I dont know if Ive already tried to link this to the Anargo Sector Project, but perhaps that might be an interesting coorporation since we are also trying to "redesign" the Dark Eldar. You haven't personally, though I've had a little contact with Kage2020 and CELS, both of whom encouraged me to take a look. I've glanced at a few things, but always get distracted and don't end up registering.

personally I would like to see more ideological differences between these groups. but yeah like I said...perhaps a coorporation between our two little side projects?
I wouldn't mind that.
<disappears to hunt his own linkage down>

Here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=851088&postcount=85)'s a link to some plots I offered elsewhere on this board.

I've also found the DE community on 40K Online to be of interest for debating our fine race's background.

For some reason I though the Personal Guard rules would be standardized, but it's player's choice correct?
Right.

thats my mandrake fluff. any comments?
I think there's a slight conflict in the statement that they're mentally damaged near the beginning and the assessment that they're "there" enough to deal with towards the end. Also, I don't think your reference to the Dark City's surroundings is in the 'dex, I'd hope that I'd remember that...

Anyways, the failed experiments idea doesn't mesh with the statement in the 3ed BGB which says "Mandrakes have been twisted by their exposure to the warp so that their bodies can meld into the shadows..."

That's why I support the idea that the Mandrakes are actually fighting within the Eye of Terror, waging a guerrilla war to reclaim their lost lands and sometimes even working with the Crone World Eldar for large-scale operations.

The Mandrakes seen in the Dark City would be savage tribesmen from a land where our rules don't always apply, and they see those within Commorragh as lesser beings lacking the bravery to fight their real enemy directly.

malika
30-08-2006, 01:03
I like the idea of the Haemonculi also being scientists, perhaps trying to find a "cure" for the Dark Eldar? You might also want to look into this (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=506) thread revolving the Haemonculi.

As for the torture...it was stated somewhere in the fluff that a tortured soul tasted nicer to the Dark Eldar. The Dark Eldar are still pleasure seekers, so they would love to have something that tastes nice!

About the psychers...all Eldar are psychers, but how many of them truly manifest their powers? And the Dark Eldar dont have a Path system so an Eldar psycher who is very vulnerable to Slaanesh is very dangerous to Commorragh.


I think they'll be minimalized to a background element, mentioning that they join up with whatever group is appropriate.
I would keep this all very small, nothing too big...these would be individuals who would "flee" to Commorragh, not large groups.


You haven't personally, though I've had a little contact with Kage2020 and CELS, both of whom encouraged me to take a look. I've glanced at a few things, but always get distracted and don't end up registering.
You and everybody here who is interested should register and join up in the discussion there, it would be great to see a revival in some of the discussion present there! Our project has been a bit quiet lately due to the summer holidays but if more new souls would show up with fresh ideas to work with I believe it would be very interesting to see this happening!


That's why I support the idea that the Mandrakes are actually fighting within the Eye of Terror, waging a guerrilla war to reclaim their lost lands and sometimes even working with the Crone World Eldar for large-scale operations.

The Croneworld Eldar have mostly either been eaten by Slaanesh or are her mighty champions now. Personally I think the Mandrakes have turned too insane to really be concerned about reconquering the Eye of Terror, they might live somewhere else throughout the Webway/Warp but would not be concerned about larger schemes of the Eldar.


The Mandrakes seen in the Dark City would be savage tribesmen from a land where our rules don't always apply, and they see those within Commorragh as lesser beings lacking the bravery to fight their real enemy directly.
Isnt Commorragh the Dark City?

IncubiLord
30-08-2006, 02:29
Incubi linkage. (http://www.40konline.com/mos/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=833&topic=120813.msg1447164#msg1447164)

I've always thought that Haemonculi were the Evil doctors of the universe, the keepers of knowledge both of life and death within DE society. They don't just torture, they put their intimate knowledge of biology to use in all manner of ways.

I never thought of them as philosophers or architects though. Those people ended up doing other things than becoming the torturer elite of the Dark City.

And you've probably seen my take on DE psykers beaten to death by now...

The Croneworld Eldar have mostly either been eaten by Slaanesh or are her mighty champions now.
How sure are you of that?

If I'm right, there's almost nothing about the croneworlders aside from a brief mention in the 2ed Eldar dex, and I didn't think it was that detailed.

Personally I think the Mandrakes have turned too insane to really be concerned about reconquering the Eye
I'd like to think that anybody who can be bargained with as the Mandrakes are portrayed as being used is sane enough to have goals of their own.

Also, if they have no cause and their shadow-skin comes from Warp exposure, how are they replenishing their numbers?

Isnt Commorragh the Dark City?
Yes. I just like to use them interchangably to quit repeating one or the other.

The use of "they" after the "and" refers to the Mandrakes.

Easy E
30-08-2006, 03:59
As for Croneworlders; the basis for many people's belief that they were destoyed is that the birth screams of Slaanesh killed Eldar on many craftworld's fleeing from the Crone Worlds. Therefore, if the birth scream could kill Eldar many light years away, the Eldar remaining on the Crone Worlds would have been obliterated as their souls were ripped from their bodies.

IncubiLord
30-08-2006, 04:12
As for Croneworlders; the basis for many people's belief that they were destoyed is that the birth screams of Slaanesh killed Eldar on many craftworld's fleeing from the Crone Worlds. Therefore, if the birth scream could kill Eldar many light years away, the Eldar remaining on the Crone Worlds would have been obliterated as their souls were ripped from their bodies.

Ah, but from the Torturer's Tale you can surmise that the Dark Eldar were also upon the Crone Worlds at the time of the Fall. More than a couple of Eldar survived the birth scream, and I run under the basic assumption that not all of them went to Commorragh. Those who remained upon their worlds within the Eye of Terror would be the Crone World Eldar, right?

You know that others were merely driven mad, and the survivors of these Eldar could be possessed beasts that treat other Croneworlders as members of their pack if they survived. Some may have come to their senses, or had their personality subsumed by a daemon that possessed them.

There's room in the background for about as many Croneworlders as there are Dark Eldar, I would think.

malika
30-08-2006, 13:47
I've always thought that Haemonculi were the Evil doctors of the universe, the keepers of knowledge both of life and death within DE society. They don't just torture, they put their intimate knowledge of biology to use in all manner of ways.

Agree with you there. The torture should be seen in a way as distilling a fine drink...also its probably a hobby thing of the Haemonculi.


I never thought of them as philosophers or architects though. Those people ended up doing other things than becoming the torturer elite of the Dark City.
I think that armourers, architects and figures like that would be ordinairy Dark Eldar. I doubt all the Dark Eldar would be warriors, wyches, haemonculi and incubi. There would also be non-military figures in that society.


How sure are you of that?

If I'm right, there's almost nothing about the croneworlders aside from a brief mention in the 2ed Eldar dex, and I didn't think it was that detailed.
It mentioned they were eaten by Slaanesh and some became Champions and that was about it.


I'd like to think that anybody who can be bargained with as the Mandrakes are portrayed as being used is sane enough to have goals of their own.
Sure they can have goals of their own, but personally Im not that pro of having them have the ideal of restoring the Eldar Empire.


Also, if they have no cause and their shadow-skin comes from Warp exposure, how are they replenishing their numbers?
Well, does the Warp exposure have genetic effects? Is the shadowskin now sometihng genetic among the Mandrakes? If so they would replenish their numbers like any other Eldar ;) If this would not be possible, they might kidnap Eldar and expose them to the Warp in that manner.


There's room in the background for about as many Croneworlders as there are Dark Eldar, I would think.
Yes but they would then be possessed by Slaanesh or the other Gods since inside the Eye of Terror they would be heavily exposed to the Chaos Gods..without protection.

Dat Wildboy
30-08-2006, 17:50
the crone worlds are far from deserted. many have chaos spave marines on them, are daemonworlds and could have a few chaos eldar on too.

i don't have my codex to hand, but i'm sure theres a story about a wych fight which Vect watches on a crone world.

the 'dark craftworld' unit could be a unit of corrupted rangers. rangers who cannot control their desires and wander from the outcast path to the path of destruction into darkness.

the whole 'dark craftworld' idea with incubi is basically because they are like evil, armoured ninjas. they live a rigid lifestyle based around ritual killings, training and battle. much like an aspect shrine, but evil. it represents khaine as the god of murder.

i would like the incubi to seem autonomous, able to operate seemingly randomly by other dark eldar. they would be like an 'evil charity' where the archon donates equipment, slaves and their own children to the cult whereby they could be rewarded with a bodyguard in the future. they would be a separate organisation not run by Vect's kabal, but he as always, has influence over it.

mandrake fluff should be re-written, the warp mutated terrors doesn't fit with the dark eldar's hatred for the chaos powers. the idea of deranged, hissing savages created to try and increase the yields of raids, gone horribly wrong and killing their creators and fleeing into the wastes is good. they must be able to talk, and understand, but have an animal way of thinking; instinctive and not making sense, even to the alien eldar. they must be uncultured and feral, covered in talismans, trophies and bits of enemies. they should be terrifying but loathed by the other eldar. they should hate the other Dark eldar as they know the disgust and contempt the other has for them.

with the psyker idea, maybe make them reluctant to use their powers and brought to battle in chains as mentioned previously. however, the chances to rip souls screaming from the bodies of enemies and devour them is a chance not to be missed by most eldar, even if it could lead them to madness and torture.

i agree the idea of Vect as a king of the Dark Eldar would lead to stagnation of the story, but he needs more control than he does now. rather than being the dominant kabal leader as he is now, i would rather like to see him as a great big mafia boss, with fingers in many pies. able to make things going his way when he wishes, but otherwise he is fine watching the other kabals fight each other and keeping his rivals down. he has influence over every part of commoragh, but not complete and utter dominance. secure but not completely secure.

i'm unsure of how things might go, dark eldar need to be redesigned, not merely improved. this is how i envision them. trying to survive and succeding well, increasing the numbers of a dwindling race but still with the characteristic eldar flaw of arrogance. stealing and pillaging from other races, stealing the children of other eldar to raise in their own dark decadance and murderous ways seems fitting, and alongside the soul vampirism strengthens the distrust the craftworlders have for them.

malika
30-08-2006, 18:15
i don't have my codex to hand, but i'm sure theres a story about a wych fight which Vect watches on a crone world.

I doubt the Dark Eldar would go to the Eye Of Terror, they fled into the webway to be far away from the Eye of Terror and Slaanesh...


the 'dark craftworld' unit could be a unit of corrupted rangers. rangers who cannot control their desires and wander from the outcast path to the path of destruction into darkness.

Too common for my tastes...I would stick to a special character or something like that.


the whole 'dark craftworld' idea with incubi is basically because they are like evil, armoured ninjas.
This is sounding quite horrible to me...


they live a rigid lifestyle based around ritual killings, training and battle. much like an aspect shrine, but evil. it represents khaine as the god of murder.

The Dark Eldar dont worship their old Gods, and they are not mere evil copies of the Craftworld...heck they might be perceived as evil but they are not evil just for the sake of being evil like Chaos.


mandrake fluff should be re-written, the warp mutated terrors doesn't fit with the dark eldar's hatred for the chaos powers.
The Fall caused the warp to explode into the EOT, it also caused Mandrakes and other creatures to exist due to the exposure of the Warp...

The failed experiment unit could be something else, but not the Mandrakes...I also doubt that they would truly hate the Dark Eldar...why would they hate them? They could provide the Mandrakes with souls and blood, so why be mad at them?


but he needs more control than he does now. rather than being the dominant kabal leader as he is now, i would rather like to see him as a great big mafia boss, with fingers in many pies. able to make things going his way when he wishes, but otherwise he is fine watching the other kabals fight each other and keeping his rivals down. he has influence over every part of commoragh, but not complete and utter dominance. secure but not completely secure.

Isnt that the situation which we have now? Personally while I like Vect as somewhat the uberdominant leader present there I dont think he should be in charge of the entire Dark City (even if its indirect), the possibility that there are other groups and individuals doing big things should be left open.

IncubiLord
31-08-2006, 06:41
Personally while I like Vect as somewhat the uberdominant leader present there I dont think he should be in charge of the entire Dark City (even if its indirect), the possibility that there are other groups and individuals doing big things should be left open.
I don't even like Vect presented as uberdominant.

He says in "The Torturer's Tale" that other factions started their own domains within Commorragh at the same time, so why's he the only big bad?

It makes his character boring if he's got no rivals.

malika
31-08-2006, 14:05
He is the big bad and problably one of the oldest and most powerful figures there, but I believe there are also other characters out there who have their own parts of Commorragh or have their own agendas to power which would certainly be a threat to Vect.

Also remember that Vect has a whole bunch of servants and luitenants who cant wait to see him dead so they can take over...

Xisor
31-08-2006, 16:46
A consideration I'm trying to push through in the Epic Armageddon fluff for Dark Eldar(guess who's the ringleader of the development team :angel: )

'Prime Focal Point of DE Society': Commoragh
Other Focal Points: All over the webway. Tons of smaller townships, settlements and hubs where the Dark Eldar cults 'thrive'. The same goes for the vast 'exiled from Commoragh' fleets that roam the Galaxy(ref: No'akei)

Point One: Commoragh is sort of like Rome-at-it's-height. It's where all the power is, but it's not that different from anywhere else, except that's where all the power is.

Point Two: Vect rules *Commoragh*, but is still subject to the political intruige and jostling required of him. He is *not* Emperor, but he *is* the one with the most clout.

Point Three: Haemonculi are a 'type'. Their origins can be multitudinous. No need to tie them down. Some come as philosophers, some as scientists, some are depraved torturers from the outset. I've got some decent(IMO) codex-sized paragraph-nugget bits of fluff sufficient to tag onto most of the units in the Epic Armageddon list...I just can't upload them to the internet to share them!

My main word(s, plural) on the latest discussions you folks are having here is this:

My main concern is that, to me, it feels like the stint you're playing is too human. It's difficult for me to clarify, but I really do need the assembled notes I've got on the DE stuff for EA for my points to be of a more constructive relevance.

About the skull kin: It is and always has been my fluff objections that got in the way. Unit wise, they're not prolific, but I'd likely take'em.

Xisor

EDIT: To keep Vect 'vital', you've got to illustrate in the fluff that his rivals are many and mounting, but that he has still managed to stay on top. He's not *that* much better than any of the others, but still a cut above the rest. Outthinking them more than outweighing them.

Easy E
01-09-2006, 00:25
I've got some decent(IMO) codex-sized paragraph-nugget bits of fluff sufficient to tag onto most of the units in the Epic Armageddon list...I just can't upload them to the internet to share them!

Can you just copy and paste some in to wet our appetites? Perhaps a different thread.

malika
01-09-2006, 00:25
'Prime Focal Point of DE Society': Commoragh
Other Focal Points: All over the webway. Tons of smaller townships, settlements and hubs where the Dark Eldar cults 'thrive'. The same goes for the vast 'exiled from Commoragh' fleets that roam the Galaxy(ref: No'akei)
Very interesting, I think there would also be various "proto dimensions" within the warp/webway which would sustain Eldar refugees (including Dark Eldar). Wasnt there also some "second Commorragh" like world in Soul Drinker (or was it another BL novel?)


Point Two: Vect rules *Commoragh*, but is still subject to the political intruige and jostling required of him. He is *not* Emperor, but he *is* the one with the most clout.
He might be the big shot in Commorragh, but Im not too pro of the idea that he is the ruler of that city. There would be plenty of other pre Fall survivors who might have large parts of Commorragh under control.


Point Three: Haemonculi are a 'type'. Their origins can be multitudinous. No need to tie them down. Some come as philosophers, some as scientists, some are depraved torturers from the outset. I've got some decent(IMO) codex-sized paragraph-nugget bits of fluff sufficient to tag onto most of the units in the Epic Armageddon list...I just can't upload them to the internet to share them!

Why would only the Haemonculi be scientists? The Codex gives us a very limited view of the Dark Eldar, there must be more than mere warriors, Wyches, Mandrakes, Incubi and Haemonculi.


EDIT: To keep Vect 'vital', you've got to illustrate in the fluff that his rivals are many and mounting, but that he has still managed to stay on top. He's not *that* much better than any of the others, but still a cut above the rest. Outthinking them more than outweighing them.
This I like...just dont make him the "ruler" of Commorragh.

Xisor
01-09-2006, 18:16
That was bad wording on my part.

He is the most powerful entity in Commoragh.

His Kabal(the Black Heart) has such a clout that it is exceedingly difficult to say no when things are asked of you(and live)

How he is *not* the ruler of Commoragh:
Because lot's of people scheme and plot to make sure he never asks them for stuff. They duck out of the way, they end up at his back for short whiles.

It's not that he's *ruler*, or that Commoragh itself is a united place, but Commoragh is no doubt the Nexus and Peak of all Dark Eldar power. One can't *rule* Commoragh, by definition almost.

Flowing directly from that, it means there is absolutely no way to say anyone *rules* the Dark Eldar 'race'. That'd be a race of 'something different'


Why would only the Haemonculi be scientists? The Codex gives us a very limited view of the Dark Eldar, there must be more than mere warriors, Wyches, Mandrakes, Incubi and Haemonculi.


I wasn't claiming they'd be scientists. There's plenty of scientists. The 'Warriors' of a Kabal are simply the profesional fighters/thugs(it's really the same thing to a Dark Eldar framework) that work directly under the protection and 'service' of a Kabal(Scourges work *outside* the Kabals as 'gangs' or 'flights' of what amount to mercenaries, unlike the Mandrakes who are more often than not essentially the most fearsome and terrifyingly scary 'beasts' of Commoragh, the kind that don't blink an eye at the rape of an entire nursery).

For the 'scientists' however, they'd just be another branch of a Kabal or Haemonculus Household(less likely that of a Cult, though strong affilliations between *all* entities in Dark Eldar society must exist for there to *be* a Dark Eldar society, it's what separates the Dark Eldar from simply being hedonistic Eldar[as a side note, those who are *in* Commoragh look down on those *not* in Commoragh as it's the most prosperous, by leaps and bounds, of the 'civilised' Dark Eldar, in other places where it really is *just* gangs of thugs and low-life-villains you don't have the success and longevity of Commoragh]). The Haemonculus Households are independent 'bodies', much like Kabals, but often in multiple service to, of and with various Kabals and Cults(supporting a strong enough 'encomy' to allow them to remain viable independent entities).

In such a manner the Haemonculi extrapolate souls to higher 'heights', they 'develop' beasts and things and they're not *all* mad. Not 'really'. Seemingly insane, perhaps, but not all 'mad scientists'.

In the same way, you'd also have the great Grand Admiral Thrawns of the Kabals themselves, the great tacticians able to simply outthink a target and bring about it's demise rather than go against it with a 'better' force(though both may be used, for insurance purposes).

Going to the side a bit, you'd also have the 'Evil Scientists', simply folks who value knowledge and gaining knowledge and turn that knowledge to 'dark'(ooh!) purposes. Very Dark Eldar-ish, but with less of the strict punchy-kicky fighting.

@ Easy E: I wish I could, but it's *completely* away form the internet, for now. It's one my laptop, and I can't transfer from my laptop to something else, which isn't able to connect to the internet.

I'll give you a few nuggets of what my thinking was on some of the matters(some of them you may have already seen in my general position on various Dark Eldar matters).

- Dark Eldar 'society' doesn't revolve strictly around Chaos-Worship(no selling others souls to Slaanesh) but much of the practices would be things that Slaanesh worshippers would do(Dark Eldar typically being some of the potentially greatest worshippers of Slaanesh, except for their little disagreement with one another...neither would worship either).
- Instead Dark Eldar society revolves around the desires of the individual, notably alien individuals. Where Humans fall totally into depravity, Eldar may fall into depravity...but they *can*(some do, some don't) still be nicely rational beings.
- Being Eldar they may experience extremes of emotion far more than us, but they also have alien willpower(also presumably super-human).
- The major difference of Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar is an idealogical one(as is the difference between CWE and Harlequins). The difference being that the CWE do what they do(CRef: 'The Path') for themselves too. Very selfish. It's their soul. Their race second, their soul first.
- Following that: The CWE view the Dark Eldar as being the route of thier own problem, and the route they wish to avoid. They don't, however, view them as 'heretics' or scum. Simply(or rather: complexly) foolish. The same applies in return.[Note: the Harlequins would regard all other Eldar as 'foolish' in a similar fashion, but still not necessarilly 'bad' or 'evi' for this reason]
- Additionally, we have it that Commoragh isn't just a big orgy of extremes and pleasure. Well, it *is* a big orgy of extremes, but it's not *just* that. It's so much more. The Dark Eldar 'viewpoint'(that which most, IMO, abstractly distinguishes a Dark Eldar from a 'Chaos'-Eldar) is that They are still 'in control', in a manner of speaking. Not 'sober', as such, but it's for them, it's their destiny, their fate.
- This doesn't gel well with the fact that, ultimately, there *is* a great power that rears it's ugly head as soon as their soul is loosed from it's body. It's an interesting hypocrasy really, but not one that *necesserally* invalidates their viewpoint. Example: I, for one, may be absolutely correct in my point of view, but that doens't stop someone with a gun/stick/fist kill me and thus stopping my own ability to be right. Whilst my point would have been 'right', the truth is that in the end: I still lose.
- I haven't yet dealt with reasoning why the Dark Eldar don't do the spirit stone or other route.

A diversion from that line fo thinking now:

- Dark Eldar Kabals are pretty much gangs, but due to them being Eldar, and having a pressing need to be interesting *as well as* viable they're alot *more* than just a gang of depraved thugs(in a 'Godless' universe, ie there's no 'One God' like I believe in real life, which if there was, they *would* be just a gang of depraved thugs...assuming my PoV is correct)
- Haemonuli households are independent entities. Almost like a company, or more accurately a service provider within a market and having an economy to sustain them. They *must*, in a sense, go with the market...but they're alot more than this too. They're mad scientists...they don't have a care for the rest of the world(yet ironically they *must* keep with the market...is this called a dichotomy? That word keeps being shouted at me from the depths of my subconcious). They're not unlike Kabals though, and it's feasible for them to wield alot of power, just like Kabals
- Similar to Households and Kabals, the Cults are just that: similar. But they've a different focus. The Wych Cults deal with alot of the martial prowess and entertainment. Close, I must admit, in similarity to the various ways of viewing Aspects as 'cults of Khaine', but they're not cults of worship. They're not Dark *Elf* cults, it's not like that. They are...Eldar(I'm pinning alot on the relative alienness of Eldar and that they *can* be independent of their 'gods', it's just unfortunate that these ones aren't, but continue to act as if they're right...y'know what I mean)
- Combining all three views allows us to see that the Cults and Kabals and Households(Covens actually, I think the word I used was) are essentially three 'main' types of similarly sized multi-tiered entity in Dark Eldar society.
- Kabals are the 'typical' fighting force of the Dark Eldar. It is they who must *secure* the fresh slave-resources. Kabals are the only ones who really develop fleets or armies the like would likely manifest themselves in a BFG game or Epic Armageddon. The Wych cults may wield that kind of fighting forces, but they wouldn't *commit* them like they're committed in games terms. It's with this idea, and the generic idea that of the three bodies the 'top' tier of Kabals are invariably more powerful than the top tier of Cults or Covens.
- Kabals are generally split into smaller operations. Syndicates I've called them in the context of Epic Armageddon, but generally this is simply an arbitrary subdivision(unlike a Cadre as part of a Contingent for the Tau, it's not a military or *strictly* defined entity, they just 'are'/exist). A syndicate typically operates with 'reasonable' freedom in it's actions as part of a Kabal. It's leaders are under direct authority of the Dracons/Senior Sybarites(anyone higher up the appropriate command chain), but it can operate with a decent/viable degree of independence
- These Syndicates, in Epic Armageddon terms, are usually from about 3 to 4 'squads' of Warriors strong(ie a force of about 30 Warriors would be a syndicate).
- In this manner, a Sybarite would make a perfect counterpart for an Inquisitor 'archetype' in a Commoragh-based campaign of 'Inquisitor'(the Game), as a Syndicate under the Sybarite's command would make a decent 'backup forces' from which to pick 'loyal supporters' to help oust a rival, investigate something for a Dracon, assassinate a Dracon etc without being bogged down with the 'reality/responsibiliy' faced by, say, a Dracon.
- Syndicates make up a Kabal, basically. The Syndicate usually used to house an Archon's Incubi, *pesonal* guard, courtroom-Mandrakes etc is called a 'Coterie' in terms of Epic Armageddon, but this is generally a catch-all fluff term for a Dark Eldar lords' court or entourage.
- In a form of defferenc(?) to the Kabals, Cults and Covens, there are the looser/lesser organisations of the Scourges, Mandrakes, Hellions, Reavers etc that don't form part of the 'core' of Dark Eldar society, but are still very much *used* by it(and in many respects use the core to their own ends, but the ends are usually not overlapping, so the distinction generally holds enough for Dark Eldar society to function)
- As mentioned before: Mandrakes are prevalently murders, rapists and other horrible terrors. However, given Dark Eldar society, it's unlikely you'd here DE claiming that "All Mandrakes are evil and should be locked up", the DE line would generally be typified as saying "It's the victims fault"<steers away from dangerous P&R/plain tasteless territory for a thread>

Zooming out a bit

- Such 'entities' and organisations are prevalent across Dark Eldar society galaxy-wide, it's just the most successful and most important are in Commorgah. That's why being booted out of Commoragh was a bad thing for No'akei. She's still living, and probably wields *more* power now than she did there, but Commoragh is a vast source of resource if you know how to tap it, hence why Vect does so well.
- To throw a phrase out there "Vect's prime resource is Commoragh, it's also his worst enemy"
- To follow that phrase is a clarification of my thoughts: I'd propose that it's also 'his worst enemy' to the same degree that Slaanesh is.
- Just as I said Dark Eldar and Slaaneshi folks are *very* similar, it's differences like that that illustrate the divide. Dark Eldar and Slaanesh are essentially the same thing, but so different in scale. Dark Eldar absorb souls of victims, Slaanesh does too.
- I'm of the rough opinion that because the Dark Eldar are preventing their souls going to Slaanesh(for now), whilst they are doing that therefore keeps them 'better at being Slaanesh than Slaanesh is'. As a society though. Many Dark Eldar folks are only not Slaaneshi because they haven't fallen to the 'darkside' yet, or will die before they get the chance!
- I suspect Dichotomy is the right word, for alot of things I've said here.

I hope that helps, jumbled as it may be!

malika
05-09-2006, 01:14
Hmm perhaps this thread (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=937) might be able to help you guys out with ideas for psychers, we are trying to work out the whole need for Souls the Dark Eldar have.

Xisor
05-09-2006, 02:40
Malika: I don't have the time at the mo to put my suggestion across over at Anargo Sector, so could you pass it on? Instead of strictly going with 'souls' or draining something, go with 'Vitality'. This'd effectively be equal to a characters 'hit points' or something for most characters, say. Third it for Tau, quadruple it for Eldar, and have Dark Eldar being able to increase it by leeching from others.

Or something like that.

<ponders and will return later>

Xisor

UltimateNagash
05-09-2006, 11:15
PLEASE suggest a new Wych Heavy Support choice!
I came up with most of this without any help, and didn't like that their HS choice was so similar to the Skull Kin, but I'm kinda tapped out. I just can't come up with something for them.


OK, there's so much to read, I'm going to just come up with my own idea. We have Wych HQ, Troops (I hope I'm right here), Fast Attack. Correct. So, with Wych Squads either being Elite or Troops (maybe have them as both! But only with a Wych Commander person).
So my idea for a Heavy Support one is a small group of Wychs so on Combat Drugs, Humonucli (sorry, can't spell their name) manipulation and alteration etc, they are suped up massive Gladiators (like Skaven Rat Ogre size, or slightly smaller). They don't have weapon options (just two CCWeapons), but are strong and tough (S and T 5 or 6). With 2 or 3 W and 3 A? Also, reduced I.
Does that work on any level, or not. Sorry if I wasted your time here.

IncubiLord
05-09-2006, 16:41
That's an interesting take on them - Wyches on the DE equivalent of steroids.

They would require a fair bit of work to make them a HS choice though.

< wanders off to ponder the possibilities >

malika
05-09-2006, 16:51
What about a different kind of warpbeast for heavy support? Something dreadnought sized which is purely close combat oriented?


Malika: I don't have the time at the mo to put my suggestion across over at Anargo Sector, so could you pass it on? Instead of strictly going with 'souls' or draining something, go with 'Vitality'. This'd effectively be equal to a characters 'hit points' or something for most characters, say. Third it for Tau, quadruple it for Eldar, and have Dark Eldar being able to increase it by leeching from others.

Or something like that.

<ponders and will return later>

Xisor
Yeah, I passed it on to our forums. This vitality would be somewhat similar to the consumption of life essense the C'tan did on the Necrontyr when they were turned into Necrons I assume?

Sybaronde
05-09-2006, 16:51
That's an interesting take on them - Wyches on the DE equivalent of steroids.

They would require a fair bit of work to make them a HS choice though.

< wanders off to ponder the possibilities >



Rending Wyches? :p

UltimateNagash
05-09-2006, 17:02
What about a different kind of warpbeast for heavy support? Something dreadnought sized which is purely close combat oriented?

After reading through the old Rogue Trader and 1st ed rulebook, I came up with an idea similar to that. The Warp Beasts are similar to Astral Hounds, so why not have Warp Entity like things. They're similar to Daemons, but have mind control and stuff. Maybe a small one of those?

malika
05-09-2006, 17:17
I dont know how exactly the warpbeasts functioned, but IIRC they werent daemons. I was thinking of just a similar creature with gigantic claws. Perhaps even creature which can spit acid...or is that too Tyranid like?

Another idea:

Hmm, the idea of drones or AI would be very fitting for the (Dark) Eldar. In A Torturer's Tale Vect mentioned the Eldar had machines who did the fighting for them. What kind of machines were these? it might have been very possible that the Eldar refugees took a bunch of these machines with them to Commorragh, or even reproduce them to this very day (why not?). The Haemonculi might also experiment with these machines and create their own hellish mechanical monsters from these machine servants.

UltimateNagash
05-09-2006, 17:33
I was just saying it was like a Daemon, so people who haven't read 1st ed can get a picture of what they're like.

malika
05-09-2006, 21:39
To return to the haemonculi, I would love to see a large list of weird wargear for them. Strange experimental weaponry, some might be biological or chemical agents. We could even take some ideas from the Dark Mechanicus thread surrounding fleshcraft and warpcraft. Some warpbased weapons might be interesting. Then mix that up a bit with a Fabius Bile like feel and perhaps even the Dark Eldar's version of a servitor (which is basicly a Talos) and we're there!

Xisor
19-10-2006, 10:49
Well, I don't know how familiar you folks are with it, but here we are:

http://www.savefile.com/download/126395?PHPSESSID=3fe300f30a54991dbe7a7f47cc5514e9

It's version 1.2.1 of the Epic Dark Eldar list we've been working on. The initial parts of fluff are largely my work, and much of it is drawn from conversation and ideas I've had on this thread.

I'm in the process of revising the fluff blurbs for the latter parts of the list (from Wyches on, basically).

Any/all comments quite welcome.

Some new things we added that you may be pleased/displeased to see:
- Perditors (large Haemonculi constructions with the capacity that are more akin to harvesters than 'mobile torture racks' that the Talos are)
- Executor Module (a small Impaler, essentially. A landing craft with Webway portal that aids in explaining how Dark Eldar can just 'show up'...even if they're not Commoragh Affiliates)
- Karashnarak (A great gribbly beastie, essentially. Intimidation at it's best!)
- Razorwings (with decent capacity to be bombers: we 'machoed' up the twin lances and gave it a slow-firing Phantom Lance, making them an actual threat rather than a modified Raven)
- Barges/Vessels of Pleasure/Pain (Superheavy Dark Eldar vehicles. Shielded SHTs, essentially. They make quite interesting additions to the feel of the Dark Eldar, and quite logical IMO)
- Tormentor Titan (I'm not as big a fan of it, but I was outvoted, and folks seem to like it. It's essentially a great big Haemonculi creation that is guided with some really twisted technology/people)

RampagingRavener
19-10-2006, 11:53
Some new things we added that you may be pleased/displeased to see:
- Perditors (large Haemonculi constructions with the capacity that are more )
- Karashnarak (A great gribbly beastie, essentially. Intimidation at it's best!

Personally I think both of these would have great potential to be put into the 40k list. Let me take a stab at some rough rules for the Krashnarak...

Krashnarak: 0-1, Heavy Support choice.

WS: 5|BS: 0|S: 6|T: 6|W: 4|I: 3|A: D3+3|LD: 5|SV: 4+ invulnerable.

Points: 160?
Weapons: Big claws, jaws, etc.
Special Rules: Monsterous Creature, Combat Drugs, Beastmasters.

Combat Drugs-the Krashnarak is pumped full of combat drugs before the raid, designed to drive it into a frenzy. It counts as being equipped with a Combat Drug Dispenser, but always counts as having the 12" assault option activated-you may not turn this off, only select additional drugs.

Beastmasters-the Krashnarak is herded forward by a team of five Beastmasters. These have exactly the same profile as the ones that lead Warp Beast packs, but only one carries an Agoniser-the others count as having two close combat weapons. They too have the 12" result for their Combat Drugs. You may add up to an additional 5 Beastmasters at +12 points each. If all the Beastmasters are killed, the Krashnarak will run wild just like Warp Beasts will.

smileyface
30-03-2007, 23:29
Here's the .txt form.
I have a much better .doc version that actually looks like it might be pages from a codex, but it's 219 K and some people might not be able to read it to boot.

I've just had a quick glance, but some things stand out:

Did I miss something, or can a webwight take a punisher/tormentor helm with power armour, fleet, and wings, making it an S5, T4, 3+ save, 5+ inv, WS/BS5 character with fleet and a power weapon... for 95 points. Make the same character using the marine list, and it costs more while having no S5, lower I, and no fleet. Points might need rethinking there. ;) I'd add that the re-roll all rolls power is rather dangerous, but at least you've costed that right *glowers in the general direction of whoever wrote codex SM*
Meanwhile the master webwight can also have a force weapon - with the same +1 S. Cheeky.

Then there's the incubi/soul reaver problem. Why take normal incubi when you can drop fleeting 12" assault 5+ inv save incubi from your portal for just a little more?

The pit vyper and raider are (still) underpriced next to the CE vyper. Of course, the problem might be with the CE version.

I like the incubi warwalker. I think it is slightly overpriced though.... although the WWP might help with that.

IncubiLord
31-03-2007, 00:17
Did I miss something, or can a webwight take a punisher/tormentor helm with power armour, fleet, and wings, making it an S5, T4, 3+ save, 5+ inv, WS/BS5 character with fleet and a power weapon... for 95 points. Make the same character using the marine list, and it costs more while having no S5, lower I, and no fleet. Points might need rethinking there. ;)
Umm... :angel:

Yeah, some of the upgrades and combos are going to need another look. The base prices seem pretty fair when just looking at them, but when they start getting put together...
It can get out of hand.

Power Armor is the likeliest culprit here, and should probably be more expensive - in retrospect.

I'd add that the re-roll all rolls power is rather dangerous, but at least you've costed that right *glowers in the general direction of whoever wrote codex SM*
Yes, that power is quite potent, but all of the powers are actually stolen from other codices and sometimes increased in price and/or given a drawback.

Meanwhile the master webwight can also have a force weapon - with the same +1 S. Cheeky.
IMO, 2-handed Force Weapons (which confer the standard great weapon bonus) should be available to any model that can take a Force Weapon.

Force Weapons/Staffs are harshly priced, though.

Then there's the incubi/soul reaver problem. Why take normal incubi when you can drop fleeting 12" assault 5+ inv save incubi from your portal for just a little more?
Incubi may well need a slight points decrease, and the Soul Reapers probably could probably cost a little more and still be a competitive choice...

I'm not 100% on points-values for all of this, but I figured they were reasonably close. If Incubi went down to 22 and Soul Reapers went up to 35, would that seem a sufficient difference?

The Incubi can always have a Raider and/or come from a WWP, so I don't think they're hurting much on the speed front.

The pit vyper and raider are (still) underpriced next to the CE vyper. Of course, the problem might be with the CE version.
Raiders are a fair bit cheaper than Vypers, but they also don't tend to have the luxury of sitting back at 31-36" and blasting away outside of the kill-zone of every basic weapon - nearly all of which can down an AV10 vehicle by weight of fire.

Pit Vypers are the dopplegangers of Vypers, and they may need a slight price bump, but I think they're pretty fair when compared to Land Speeders. I think I'll bug some Eldar players and see what they think of the price of a Vyper for that one, though...

Thanks for the feedback. :)

gargadon
15-05-2007, 17:33
What if the dark eldar have a tank equivalent or the reavers can choose the drugs abilities

gargadon
16-05-2007, 17:32
And could someone mail me the links and stats of these things cos im not online often. martinbutler53@hotmail.co.uk