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Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
20-02-2009, 12:11
This is my current greenskin list what do you guys think from it?


Lords
Orc great shaman, lv4, scroll 240pts

Heroes
Black orc bsb, heavy armour, boar, spirit totem 180pts
Night goblin shaman, lv2, itty ring 105pts
Night goblins shaman,lv2, scroll 110pts

Core
21 Savage orc's, additional handweapon, full command 240pts
21 Savage orc's, additional handweapon, full command 240pts

30 Night goblins, full command, netters 145pts
21 Night goblins, short bows, musician 64pts
21 Night goblins, short bows, musician, 1 fanatic 92pts

5 Wolfriders, spears, musician 71pts
5 Wolfriders, spears, musician 71pts
5 Spider riders, musician 71pts

Special
6 Savage boar big'uns, spears&shield, banner, banner of butchery 237
1 Boar chariot 80pts
2 spear chukka's 70pts
2 spear chukka's 70pts

Rare
1 Doomdiver 80pts
2 Pumpwagons 80pts

total points: 2246pts
Models:158
Powerdice: 10+1 boundspell
Dispell dice:6+3from banner+2 scrolls

Malorian
20-02-2009, 13:51
What formation would you typically use with this? And where do you hide the characters?

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
20-02-2009, 13:56
The formation depends, the lv4 and the black orc bsb go with the big night goblin unit, and mostly that unit is hiding somewhere on the battlefield. For the other shamans it depends on what they roll for spells, if the roll the foot of gork they mostly end up with the warmachines.

The pumpwagons always go on a flank, but that can change. The savages mostly get lined up in ranks from 6wide but sometimes I make them 7wide. The only go 5wide when my opponent fields units with lots of static combat resolution, so I start with almost the same.

Next game I play with the army I will take a pic from my deployment zone, then you get a better idea of how I mostly deploy the army.

Fate
21-02-2009, 02:50
From what I saw orcs and goblins play up until now (and what I read in the book). They can do a few nasty things, specially with goblin heroes but really that isn't a problem. O&G are now a defensive army... Why you ask?

Pump 4 orc mages, 1 dispel scroll and 1 power stone for each. The lord takes 3 power stones and 1 dispel scroll. Now pump 4 units of goblins to take the mages inside, get each unit 3 fanatics and your characters are hard to touch, but this is not where it stops. Now get 8 bolt throwers and 2 doom divers and he has now 10 more reasons not to want to get closer and then you still pump 2 units of 10 spiders with bow to go through woods and 2 units of 5 wolf riders with bow to go around the woods. Ain't it lovely? O&B playing defense with a win ratio of nearly 100%.

lord of blood2000
21-02-2009, 16:15
1 big problm lord is not good take grimgor and why no black orcs:wtf::confused:

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
21-02-2009, 18:52
From what I saw orcs and goblins play up until now (and what I read in the book). They can do a few nasty things, specially with goblin heroes but really that isn't a problem. O&G are now a defensive army... Why you ask?

Pump 4 orc mages, 1 dispel scroll and 1 power stone for each. The lord takes 3 power stones and 1 dispel scroll. Now pump 4 units of goblins to take the mages inside, get each unit 3 fanatics and your characters are hard to touch, but this is not where it stops. Now get 8 bolt throwers and 2 doom divers and he has now 10 more reasons not to want to get closer and then you still pump 2 units of 10 spiders with bow to go through woods and 2 units of 5 wolf riders with bow to go around the woods. Ain't it lovely? O&B playing defense with a win ratio of nearly 100%.

And you have an army that isn't fun to play with or against, and if I would want an army so I don't need to think and just roll dice I would bring out my deamons that are much more reliable.

@lord of blood: we don't use special characters much around here, and I don't like them anyway. And grimgor is easy to avoid. Faced him once and he spend the entire game with 2*20 skaven slaves:p and the rest of his army was butchered.

But I don't want advice on what list to take to tournies or how to play greenskins, I want comments on the army list:)

Fate
21-02-2009, 19:03
Well, maybe you think you don't have to think to use that list, that's really up to you. I played against one such list and liked it. It's very competitive and gives me trouble to overcome.

Anyways, your own list dos have a bit of magic and some warmachines, that's the only thing I really consider a problem, the rest of it I can deal with it... Infantry is usually easy to deal with and the boars don't really have a save... I never really had much respect for O&G when they don't come as heavy magic/warmachines. I'm sure you might have fun with it though. As for me, I don't relly on cadres of troops.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
21-02-2009, 19:52
Well, maybe you think you don't have to think to use that list, that's really up to you. I played against one such list and liked it. It's very competitive and gives me trouble to overcome.

Anyways, your own list dos have a bit of magic and some warmachines, that's the only thing I really consider a problem, the rest of it I can deal with it... Infantry is usually easy to deal with and the boars don't really have a save... I never really had much respect for O&G when they don't come as heavy magic/warmachines. I'm sure you might have fun with it though. As for me, I don't relly on cadres of troops.

Just out of intrest, what army do you play? And maybe you haven't came allong a good greenskin player:p

Greetz

stonetroll
21-02-2009, 21:24
Though I could see this list wrecking some serious havoc among enemy lines during your magic phase, I see some trouble:

- Biggest problem will be the O&G spell casting values which are WAY overcosted compared to any other lore in the game.

- You have a lot of magic levels, but (as all O&G armies) it kinda stops there. You have no way (apart from 1 use only powerstones) to generate casting dice, so you are still stuck with *only* 10 power dice, which is not that hard to stop with a couple of combos most armies can field.

- The greenskin miscast table is too much of a liability in this edition

- IMHO savage orcs (both your footsloggers and (especially) your boar big uns) are heavily overcosted and a bit of a liability since you cant screen them reliably (animosity) like khorne knights do with hounds or blood dragons with dire wolves.

- Anything that involves you taking leadership tests will give you MAJOR problems (since your highest Ld is 8).

- Anything that is good at taking out enemy characters will give you big trouble, because even your lord shaman is kinda defenseless.

I would very much like to play O&G with (some) magic, but until now I have not yet seen the point as our magic offense is not reliable and our magic defense is sooooooo cheap that you can take the defence and a horde army to go with it for a lot more effectivity.

just my 2 cents, but let me know how your fared!

Fate
21-02-2009, 21:30
I play 3 armies as of now. Empire (which are severly cut down in this ed), dwarves and high elves.

I've came across a few green skin players, granted, not that many but I never had a problem dealling with big units. The truth is. If charged by strong units, they break on the charge. and you can also take care of most enemy units with magic/shooting and leave the remnants to your defensive units.
Only way that had stoped me was like I said, warmachine/magic heavy.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
22-02-2009, 03:06
Its a solid list i guess. Black orcs are intense and missing :P Enough shooting i suppose not that orc and goblins can shoot anything :) I suppose it will do well. I would like to fight it :D Orcs and Goblins are so unpredictable that they are halarious whether they are losing or winning.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
22-02-2009, 07:29
@fate: I find it rather weird that you haven't had any problems with the greenskins but those armies are not that hard to beat with greenskins:). If you had vc or deamons I would completly understand it:).

@ stone troll: thanks for the comments, on some points you spoke the truth. But I have to disagree with you on the savages. The are maybe a bit hard to control but at least they won't fail their fear tests, which is a good thing and is also the reason I take a lv4 mage. The lv4 mage is with the gobbos with nets.

@ dragon prince of caledor: I have used a list with black orcs but those always let me down, so I dropped them out the list.

Greetz

Fate
24-02-2009, 01:00
I don't see why you say that, I really don't. Truth is, big blocks have absolutly no chance to break through anything unless they can charge, have a lot of attacks and have a lot of strenght. The first certainly does not happen, not here because combat armies don't take anything on foot or rarely do. Shooter/magic armies will just take a huge toll on you, even if you get there, whatever remnants are left will be easly dispached by a small cavalry or such things.

There is just no way to bypass a wall of shooting and magic with blocks and there is no way to beat big cavalries or big beasts with big blocks. It would be fun if there was a competitive way to use them, but there's not, not the way we play around here.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
24-02-2009, 06:44
I don't see why you say that, I really don't. Truth is, big blocks have absolutly no chance to break through anything unless they can charge, have a lot of attacks and have a lot of strenght. The first certainly does not happen, not here because combat armies don't take anything on foot or rarely do. Shooter/magic armies will just take a huge toll on you, even if you get there, whatever remnants are left will be easly dispached by a small cavalry or such things.

There is just no way to bypass a wall of shooting and magic with blocks and there is no way to beat big cavalries or big beasts with big blocks. It would be fun if there was a competitive way to use them, but there's not, not the way we play around here.

Hmmm intresting look on the game you have, you really think that my opponent will have cavalry when I reach his side of the table, and I'm certainly not foolish enough to let them shoot on my savage blocks there is a reason I have two units from 21 goblins, namely shoot them down.

But here on the internet we can say all we want, I would prefer to whipe out your army and prove that I'm right:). But it is intresting to see someones else view on the game. Also in the list you named I miss the itty ring, and the best spell from the lore can't be casted if you field such army because otherwise those warmachines will be useless for 2 turns. It would be better to take for the lv2 goblin shamans, you also get the movement spell then but it is for one unit only which is much better in that kind of army.

Greetz
G

Fate
24-02-2009, 21:10
I see the point of using screens against shooting, but there is always hills and well, you need to remove the screen before charging, it still allows a turn of shooting. There is magic too, we can overcome such blocks easly enough like I said. I have tried it more than once and it simply doesn't gets to my side of the table. And if we talk about combat armies, then you are at a complete loss, strong units charge the screenners and get to the unit behind after the enemy is broken... If the unit behind is out of range, then we don't charge at all and simply get a little closer since the ones behind can't charge through your unit.

Last, your magic is a bad, orc magic always was but If I bring a good deal of magic, I'll dispel most of your spells, if I don't, expect at least a couple mages with 4 dispel scrolls. We don't take such risks, it's preferable to have 100 points in scrolls plus the mages cost wasted for a battle, than to be wiped out by some magic heavy armies.

Last I do agree with you. It's a pitty we can't just try it out on the table like it's meant to be but well, I'm guessing you're not from Portugal, otherwise it would be easy to test it out ;)

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
25-02-2009, 07:35
No, I'm not in portugal. But you could maybe make a team portugal and go to the ETC in germany this summer. I would be pleased to give you a game.

Tonight I have a 2000pts game against deamons, but this time I loaded up on magic. hmmm 12 powerdice isn't that much, my deamons have 17:p

Greetz
G

Fate
25-02-2009, 12:55
Maybe one day something can be arranged in those terms. One things I'll tell you though. Deamons can pump much more power dice, namelly 24 dice per round if you know how to really cheese it up... this speaking of a 2250, not 2000.

valdrog
25-02-2009, 13:18
The list loosk good, my friend plays O&G with a lvl 4 Orc shaman for the chance to get the Waagh spell but he places him on a wyvern for those Terror tests and mobility, it works well for him.

Ive never been a fan of Savage orcs evrytime i use them or see them used they either get baited very easely or die before doing anything.

Pump wagons are very unrelliable in an allready unrelliable army, i have tried to use them a couple of times but they never work, they either get charged or they hit something and theyr crappy strg 4 attacks do nothing.

I would find points to give fanatics to the NG units, it makes for a GREAT speedbump :)

Aeolthir
25-02-2009, 23:11
@FATE
I hated you the first couple of time I readed you.
But since, I did understand the way you think.
Always try to be as effective as you can, or competitive as you can.
I kinda like now!

One thing I understood... dont try to do everything (I mean trying to be OK everywhere on every aspect of the game but excellent nowhere) and dont try to put down all kind of different units on the table, you'll lose.
Instead, choose a strategy and maximise it.

Tell me FATE... am I right?

Fate
25-02-2009, 23:26
Exactly. Balance, IMO is not having a bit of everything, on a general tactical sence, it gets you slaughtered. If you are going for defense, then magic is your best friend, you want to destroy anything before it gets to you. Magic and as much as you can get is the first step. Then you pump the warmachines as often magic deals more with numbers, this is the response to the heavy hitters. Then you need to prevent enemies from getting too close because just the warmachiens and magic won't cut it. Most armies you'll field one or two units to deal with the remants of the enemy, C&G will just use the fanatics to stop them. Last and because you do have the points, you get some fast units to deal with other potential threats, other warmachines or even light enemy units.

If you go effensive and I won't use O&G as an example because they rely on low speed units. You take a lord, get the best possible gear for combat and mount on a dragon (if the army allows). Now pull a couple mages for magic protection because, you'll need it if you find a defensive army. And then you move to the rest of the army. Core is usually no more than fill, though warriors of chaos for example can use mauraders and with some points that may be missing, even warhounds, cheap and quick, they take care of most shooting units and/or warmachines. Now put some heavy cavalry on it and i you have bigg things with movement over 7, like dragon ogres or shaggots, use them as well. To maximise combat effectiveness you need strong hitters and quick move to make sure you'll make it through as untouched as possible, else you won't deal any damage.

Like you said, it's a matter of maximising what you do good to break through. The rest is tactics on the battlefield and of course, dice does help as well.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
26-02-2009, 07:06
@ valdrog: I also played with the idea for placing him on a wyvern but against deamons it is a to big risk, siren song and such. And I don't have a problem with my savages been baited.

Pumpwagons work just fine for me:) I cast most of the time hand of gork so I can move them to where I want.

@ fate: you rely can't rely on fanatic's. I once used 12 in an army and one game it went completly wrong the other gamer I got a total power waaagh was a total carnage:p

Greetz
G

Greetz
G

Fate
26-02-2009, 17:34
Why the hell would you use waag when you don't want to move foward? he list I put is simple, sit back and shot him down with magic and warmachines, the only thing that will really move is the wolves and the spiders. Fanatics won't do much to your army since you don't go foward.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
26-02-2009, 19:18
It was way back in the 6ed that it happened. Also fanatic's use a scatter dice so they can scatter back which is not good.

Greetz
G

Fate
26-02-2009, 19:27
Not when they leave the unit. If they ever come back, on a general note they need to go back and roll relatively high (specially if they just ripped through a unit) Also they'll die on the roll of a double but on a general sence, when you release them you break whatever the enemy throwed at you and you just created a wall between you and him and like I said, you don't advance, you stay quietly back there throwing magic and shooting, even if you are unlucky for one or 2 fanatics to go back, they won't really hurt that much.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
26-02-2009, 20:41
Not when they leave the unit. If they ever come back, on a general note they need to go back and roll relatively high (specially if they just ripped through a unit) Also they'll die on the roll of a double but on a general sence, when you release them you break whatever the enemy throwed at you and you just created a wall between you and him and like I said, you don't advance, you stay quietly back there throwing magic and shooting, even if you are unlucky for one or 2 fanatics to go back, they won't really hurt that much.

You don't need to explain to me how fanatic's work. If they go trough a unit they will not return most of the times. But it happens a lot that you roll 3 or 4 inch and then they can return to you, and if they are behind your lines the can kill your precious warmachines.

Greetz

Fate
26-02-2009, 21:07
I don't have the book right now but wasn't there an option where you could automaticly remove them as casualties?
Even if not, on a general note you'll still gain much more by having them than by not... You need some serious bad luck to have a few going behind your lines and doing a lot of damage... If you get that worried about getting some serious luck twist, then who'd play? you'd just think the same of magic, of combat and so on.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
26-02-2009, 22:01
Yeah by stopping on them you can remove them but then you suffer 2d6 s5 hits, which is also not a great option. Anyway in my oppinion fanatic's are overrated, people fear them to much and that is the reason I don't take many anymore. They suspect them anyway.

Greetz
G

Fate
26-02-2009, 22:13
Fear them too much? You take a lot of high strenght hits and you think there is no reason to fear them? They can kill cavalry just like that. Cavalry is just an example. There are things like dragon ogres and well other big things. Even fliers aren't exactly safe thought a little more than ground forces.

Even if you say. Oh what about ol' RnF units, well it's still 3D6 STR 5 hits if they are charging. The toll they take is just too big.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
26-02-2009, 22:17
There you have it my point is proven:), you fear them. If they are killing dragon ogres I think i'm facing a noob, a WoC player will pull out the fanatic's with warhounds and the horsemen.

Greetz
G

Fate
26-02-2009, 22:40
Will he? After all the magic takes care of that all too easly, but even if you asume all units get close enough for that to happen, then what?. The small units are dead, but there is a wall of fanatics between them. even though they move randomly each turn and die of exaustion, how many turns are they forced to stay back? There is the warmachines and magic pounding them every single turn and units in the woods to stop marching.

Also please don't call me a noob, I've been playing warhammer for over 8 years so I should know what I'm talking about.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
27-02-2009, 07:26
Fate I didn't call you a noob, but if he has turn 1 there is big chance he has some hounds left in his turn 2 and if he then lures them out they are probably more in my way then in his. Also if he uses the terrain good he should have no problem with the fanatic's. But I suppose our playing style and oppenents are maybe different so that we have a different view on the game. If I'm ever in Portugal I'm willing to give you a game then we will see who is right and who is wrong.

Greetz
G

Fate
27-02-2009, 18:12
Well, like I said, if he lures them out, there is a wall of fanatics in front of him, his units won't get through it and going around just takes too much time, specially since you have march blockers. Meanwhile you get what? 4 turns of magic and shooting at him, if not a 5th actually.

Well if you ever come here I'd love to make a game against, just shot me a PM then.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
27-02-2009, 18:19
I will do that, if he lures them out he can stop on them with the surviving warhounds.

Greetz
G

Fate
27-02-2009, 18:26
If at least 2 od them reach the units that come foward, there will be none left...

Anyway this is pretty much teory though I've seen it in work and there is hardly anything hatcomes through a shield of fanatics.