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Spirit
20-02-2009, 16:21
Ok, iv'e been a vampire player for a long time, and i don't use dragons, so im relatively noobish at using fast, skirmishing units and big monsters.

I plan to have a 2k army with no slan (?!) but instead an oldblood on a carnosaur. What are the best ways to use this awsome model and what is the best setup for the lord?

I'm thinking either 9 S5 attacks, but that leaves me with little in the way of saves. The war drum was tempting but i feel that will be better on my EOTG ancient, because i being able to laserbeam at will is always good.

Thoughts?

inq.serge
20-02-2009, 17:01
9 attacks is great.

You won't need a great save if there's nothing that strikes back. Talisman of protection will do.

It's no longer a large target, so it won't get hit as often as they used to, but it will still be a canon-magnet, but so will your EotG.

N810
20-02-2009, 17:03
you might want to try runing a small block of shinks in front of him as a meat shield. :evilgrin:
and for extreme killyness give him the blade of realites. :skull:

Spirit
20-02-2009, 17:41
you might want to try runing a small block of shinks in front of him as a meat shield. :evilgrin:
and for extreme killyness give him the blade of realites. :skull:

I was thinking about using chameleon skinks.

This way they could set up a bit further and let him go 14" turn 1 and they provide a harder unit to shoot, especially form long range.

As for the blade of realities, it doesnt seem that good, dunno but i just forsee it failing loads of times lol, mind you with portent of far and the other heavens re roll spell it might be good!

Gaargod
20-02-2009, 17:46
Meh, if you're going for a fast hitty army, multiple S5 attacks are not a problem. Cold one units pack 11 WS4 S5 and 5 WS3 S4 attacks by themselves.

Personally, i give him Blade of Revered Tzunki and Glyph Necklace - still walks about with a 2+ armour save, 5+ ward save, 5 S6 no armour save attacks. Plus, soon as Carni kills something, he gets another attack too :)

Dooks Dizzo
20-02-2009, 17:59
Blade of Realities everytime for me :)

Sucking 3 Dragon Ogres into your sword in a single turn makes everything worth while!

Roxors45
20-02-2009, 18:27
I was thinking about using chameleon skinks.

This way they could set up a bit further and let him go 14" turn 1 and they provide a harder unit to shoot, especially form long range.

Right, good in theory and on paper, but at almost double the points of a skink skirmisher its too risky to lose them to things other than run of the mill brettonia peasent bowman (from which 6s to hit is good for you). A organ gun nets Dwarves nice victory points and wipes out the unit. Elven bowman or DE xbows will still get a fair amount of shots in. Use your cheaper option.

As for the blade of realities, it doesnt seem that good, dunno but i just forsee it failing loads of times lol, mind you with portent of far and the other heavens re roll spell it might be good!

It doesn't FAIL per se. They have to take a LD test vs every hit caused. Lets say with your WS6 you hit on 3s with your 5 attacks (6 if your Carni has tasted blood and gone frenzy!). You hit 3 times. That's 3! LD tests to the elite unit you charged. Ok so all pass (LD swordmasters we'll say or stubborn dwarves), but you still get toroll to wound on your S5. The LD test is just an added bonus.

Charged a unit of LD 5 trolls? Well instead of trying to wound those 3 hits on 3s (T4 trolls) why not have them take a LD test. If you wound all 3 hits they still get their regenerate save of 4+ AND you've only managed to kill 1 model (they have 3 wounds each). Have them roll 3 LD tests and fail? 3 models die just like if you rolled 9 wounds, no armor ward or regeneration allowed. Why do you think its 75 pts?

All in all, my old blood build is Light Armor, Pirahna Blade (all unsaved wounds doubled, enchanted shield (1+ save now), Bane head (nominate enemy character and he takes double wounds) and Glyph Necklace (5+ ward). I B-line for the enemy general (of whom I nominated) and proceed in using my superior movement to charge him. Challenge if need be (though usually just allocate attacks so I don't own champions) and proceed to at least try and wound him once with my 5 attacks. Lets say hitting on 4s (if he's got a higher than 6 WS) and wounding on 3s (4s if hs got T5). Obviously there may be armor or ward saves coming, but my strength modifies by -2 and all I need is ONE wound which then gets multiplied into 3, enough to kill most generals. Did I mention the Terror causing 4 attack S7 causing D3 wounds thing Im riding? Game set match.

Alternatively if a champion accept my challenge ill gladly take the rdiculous overkill CR bonus but like I said I usually just allocate.

Spirit
20-02-2009, 18:31
Why is the piranha blade multiplied to 3 wounds? I thought bane head doubles the wounds.

And i know the blade is good, but in general, would there not be more things that would die to 9 S5 attacks? rather than some things that would die to LD tests.

N810
20-02-2009, 18:51
Why is the piranha blade multiplied to 3 wounds? I thought bane head doubles the wounds.

And i know the blade is good, but in general, would there not be more things that would die to 9 S5 attacks? rather than some things that would die to LD tests.

Yea
I said the same thing,
I guess GW thought 4 was too many...
so they made some excuses in the Erata and said it's only 3
(by the way that's still very good)

Von Wibble
20-02-2009, 18:51
I would have thought the sword of striking was a good pick. With a maiming shield and frenzy through your mount you have 7 attacks at 2s 2s against most things, with your carnosaur to deal with the monsters. Plenty of magic allowance left for protection too.

Roxors45
20-02-2009, 18:57
Why is the piranha blade multiplied to 3 wounds? I thought bane head doubles the wounds.

Right. Pirahna blade doubles all wounds while bane head does too. So people were laying it like 1 wound doubles to 2 then doubles again to 4, but it was FAQ'd to only cause 3. So the Bane headed model you attack gets 3 wounds for every 1 you do.

And i know the blade is good, but in general, would there not be more things that would die to 9 S5 attacks? rather than some things that would die to LD tests.

Where are the 9 S5 attacks coming from anyway? Are you adding the old blood to the Carnosaur? If so the Carni is S7 not 5. Or are you giving the Old blood the Maiming shield, Blade of the Sun Replescent, and accounting for Frenzy?

Anyway I'm not sure if your understanding the Blade of Realities. You still get to roll to wound if they pass their LD saves. Its just an added bonus to kill low LD models or bad rolls. Also it's an easy way to deal with some of the more prevelant Army compositions out there. Would you rather try and wound a T5 W6 hydra or just have them roll over 6 on 2d6? How bout that nasty High Elf Dragon with T6 and W6. Your hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s. And even after that the thing is going to chomp your head off with its 5 S6 attacks. Wh not just let it fail an average save of LD8? How bout that LD 4 Zombie Dragon?

Having the blade doesn't hamper your killability, but increases it. Ever see someone unluckily roll a miscast on 2 dice and take a wound? Well that same luck can blink a WS10 S7 T6 W7 Bloodthirster out of exsistence. Enjoy your Victory points.

Dooks Dizzo
20-02-2009, 19:06
Ld9 has a 42% chance of failing a 3 consecutive leadership tests. Eat it Blood Thirster.

If that fails the Carnasaur takes S7 D3 wound bites out of his butt.

Plague Bearers are Ld7, much easier to kill them with Leadership checks than swordplay.
Hydra, Ld6
Ogres, Ld7
Grey Seers, Ld6
Anything Empire....
Vargulf, Ld4
Swarms of all types do not road block the Blade of Realities.
Trolls, Ld5
Flesh Hounds, Ld7
Flamers, Ld7
Heralds, Ld8


The list goes on and on. And at no point does the Blade slow down your normal 5 or 6 strength 5 attacks. Skinks to cast Lore of Heavens rerolls on you will have some good protection against fluffing your rolls completely.

Just goofing around with rolls, Old Blood on the charge against a Bloot Thirster (without Obsidian armor) killed the BT 2 out of 3 times. 1 in 3 was from the Blade, and 1 in 3 was a wound from the blade and then killed by the Carnasaur.

And yes the Carni was rolling 5's to hit :)

Dooks Dizzo
20-02-2009, 19:10
It gets better with the 'optimal' of the Carnasaur Frenzy and rerolling 1's.

Emissary
20-02-2009, 19:10
The problem with Bloodthirsters is the obsidian armor for the blade of realities. I mean we can't let them have any weakness now can we?

Dooks Dizzo
20-02-2009, 19:23
Yeah the Obsidian armor does make it a bit tougher, but you still have a fair chance of killing him just off wounds. Especially if your T-res can get a couple through.

Wounding him with poison attacks and such before engaging in combat is a must however.

Roxors45
20-02-2009, 19:26
My point being is that yes, charging normal infantry the Old Blood doesn't get some other insane bonus making him more efficient at killing infantry (other than 5 S5 attacks and 4 S7). He shines in that he doesn't get worse AND against things that could bog him and other generals down, he has the chance (usually a good one) to utterly roll them. In the presence of such juicy targets you MUST B-line for them and gobble them up. Hydras are delicious. Remember that these targets are usully solitary (hydras, stegadons, treeman, Greater Demons etc) and big point sinks.

Point for point one of the best weapons in the game.

Spirit
20-02-2009, 19:43
Right. Pirahna blade doubles all wounds while bane head does too. So people were laying it like 1 wound doubles to 2 then doubles again to 4, but it was FAQ'd to only cause 3. So the Bane headed model you attack gets 3 wounds for every 1 you do.


Where are the 9 S5 attacks coming from anyway? Are you adding the old blood to the Carnosaur? If so the Carni is S7 not 5. Or are you giving the Old blood the Maiming shield, Blade of the Sun Replescent, and accounting for Frenzy?

Anyway I'm not sure if your understanding the Blade of Realities. You still get to roll to wound if they pass their LD saves. Its just an added bonus to kill low LD models or bad rolls. Also it's an easy way to deal with some of the more prevelant Army compositions out there. Would you rather try and wound a T5 W6 hydra or just have them roll over 6 on 2d6? How bout that nasty High Elf Dragon with T6 and W6. Your hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s. And even after that the thing is going to chomp your head off with its 5 S6 attacks. Wh not just let it fail an average save of LD8? How bout that LD 4 Zombie Dragon?

Having the blade doesn't hamper your killability, but increases it. Ever see someone unluckily roll a miscast on 2 dice and take a wound? Well that same luck can blink a WS10 S7 T6 W7 Bloodthirster out of exsistence. Enjoy your Victory points.


For 9 attacks i was talking 5+2 for sword + 1 for shield + 1 for frenzy.

And i do understand how the blade of realities works, i know it still functions as a normal sword as well as the LD or die, i just didn't see it as being majorly useful for its points.

But, as some people have pointed out it is good against a variety of things. I probably just dont have enough knowledge on the specific leaderships of other armies, but i can see now why it would be usefull. My only problem would be that it leaves him a bit exposed to shooting, but they are probably going to go for my stegadon anyway, and im sure i could keep the carnosaur within 12".

I would love to play the staff vampire player and see what i could do about his dragon, but i doubt he would let me near it lol.

Dooks Dizzo
20-02-2009, 19:58
Blade of Realities = every HIT (not wound) take a leadership check or be removed from the game. No armor, ward or regeneration saves allowed.

Try making four Ld8 checks in a row sometime. See how it works out.

And you still have the points to take an enchanted shield :)

inq.serge
20-02-2009, 20:59
Don't forget that if you strike a mount (I.E: Zombie dragon), the player rolls for the mounts Ld, not the riders or the generals.

What was the zombie dragons Ld now again... ? :evilgrin:

Roxors45
20-02-2009, 21:38
I understand the shooting part. First remember that he's not a large target so you have that going for you. Also. A 70 point unit of skink skirmishers can screen him from Line of Sight so he can't be seen to be shot. In addition, you can throw him in a uni of Saurus Cav (preferably with the Huanchi Totem). Here's a 2250 for effect

Old blood on Carnosaur-461

Blade of Realities, Talisman of Protection, Light Armor, Shield (2+ save 6+ ward)

Skink Priest on Engine of the gods-440(magic defense)

Engine, Level 2 Priest, Dispel Scroll, Diadem of Power (can take 2 of his power dice and use them as DD, giving me 3 Dice to cast whatever my turn and 6 Dispel Dice and a scroll for defense)

Skink Chief on Ancient Stegadon-380
Ancient steg and Warspear (2d6+1 impact hits)

13 skink skirmishers with javs and shields-104

(screeners for my Old blood and army really. Harder to shoot by skirmishing and 6+ save)

11 skink skirmishers-77

11 skink skirmishers-77

11 skinks w/ 1 Krox-110

11 skinks w/ 1 Krox-110

5 Saurus Cavalry-240

Joined by my Old blood. Champion Standard bearer and Huanchis Blessed Totem (+d6 charge once)

3 terradons-90 (warmachine hunters)

1 salamander w/ extra handler-80

1 salamander w/ extra handler-80

So I have 3 large units of skink screening mywhole army. Unit of 13 directly in front of my Oldblood/Saurus Cav unit. This unit is flanked by the two rank and file skinks with krox in them. Behind those 2 and centralized are my stegs ready to join charges and run down things. Flanks are occupied by the salamaders and teradons.

To heavy shooting I can loose 258 points of troops ifi can't make my engine's 5+ ward save. The whole army marches at least 12 inches so I'm in combat in 2 turns. Not sure how someones going to kill those 3 units f skinks to get to the juicy center of my army. Oh did I mention almost every unit causes fear (every combat unit at least other than terradons) cause fear and I have 3 terror causers? Mmmmm, delicious.

Necromancy Black
21-02-2009, 00:34
That's not too abd a list, but if your monsters get dealt with your going to have no hitting or stopping power.

Also, remember that a Carnosaur is US5, and US6 with an old-blood on top. So even in a unit he can be targeted individually. Anything on a hill is going to be able to shoot the crap out of him and if they have a cannon it'll be aiming straight for the carnosaur and you won't be able to get a Look Out Sir! roll.

Roxors45
21-02-2009, 03:58
That's not too abd a list, but if your monsters get dealt with your going to have no hitting or stopping power.

Also, remember that a Carnosaur is US5, and US6 with an old-blood on top. So even in a unit he can be targeted individually. Anything on a hill is going to be able to shoot the crap out of him and if they have a cannon it'll be aiming straight for the carnosaur and you won't be able to get a Look Out Sir! roll.

Yeah I'm fairly sure a hill wont be around nor any cannons (no one round here likes em, who knew). As for the Monsters what do you see dealing with them. There'd have to be ALOT of shooting going on to even shoot them down. Are there units your suggesting? (mainly play against O+G, WE, HE)

Von Wibble
21-02-2009, 09:55
Using standard terrain deploymenty rules you are guaranteed a hill in your deployment zone if you want one. Gaming group eccentricities aside, hills and DOW cannons should be a factor to consider when choosing a carnosaur, especially one with limited shooting protection. I never understand why people always mention screening troops as if hills don't exist in games.

Specific to your case, any high elf elite unit has a fair chance of killing the carnosaur/oldblood before it even attacks. 4 swordmasters inc champ do an average of 3 wounds for example on a carnosaur (so only 1 RBT hit needed to scare it). Then there's dragon prince and chariot charges - both are faster than you. Granted, you have other things in your army, but imo the carnosaur rider just isn't worth it vs HE.

Wood elves - hail of doom arrow is scary enough. But also they have magic. Personally if I were using wood elves vs lizardmen I'd always have a spellweaver because I need the defense to deal with a slann (reroll dispels). This means vs a carnosaur force you will need a lot of luck not to have you oldblood immobilised by the beast cowers or imprisoned and surrounded by woods. My favourite tactic against large, expensive units.

Meanwhile your stegadons are limited in ability without the charge (although eotg is very useful vs massed small units with its power) - chiefs one in particular will struggle if charged, which is likely. I would strongly advise getting some chameleon skinks - these will help deal with this problem.

That leaves O+G. I don't use these so can't comment as much. However, a few things

Giant beats stegadon if it charges. Giants are very good at killing monsters! Oc with all that poison such a scenario is very unlikely.

Massed spear chukkas will endanger your carnosaur. Especially if your opponent rolls consistent 5s to hit (single shots at BS3 never seem to miss in my games...)

But can't think of much else for O+G.

Necromancy Black
21-02-2009, 11:01
Never underestimate the power of poison shots. No giant has ever done much against my lizardmen army simply because of the amount of posioned attacks I can throw at it.

But you can't let it charge, which is hard as blowpipes have the same range as a giant, so if you shoot him and are in his front arc, he'll then charge you. Dragons are going to be hell crazy to deal with since they fly, but once again, if you get a good lot of poison into them, they're gone. Pity there's no way of getting Lore of Beasts on skink priests any more...beast cowers would help ALOT.

Against WE might be your biggest issue as they can deal with jsut about anything you got with shooting. Once you get close you should win, but that'll be hard.

Against WE I might reakonmend dropping botht he terradons (they'll get shot to peices, even if they go into trees) and teh extra handlers and get a second lv 2 skink priest with no items (maybe give on of the items on the engine priest to him) just to get some more magic defense plus spells to get off. This should help contain their magic phase more so it doesn't punish you along with the shooting phase. Plus if you get the 4+ ward save spell or the magic missiles, w00t!

Kill-Freedom
21-02-2009, 11:56
Put him in a block of saurus, hehe, not much will want to charge it :D

Necromancy Black
21-02-2009, 12:33
Put him in a block of saurus, hehe, not much will want to charge it :D

Espicially when it's so, so much easier to shoot the crap out of it.

Roxors45
21-02-2009, 16:41
Using standard terrain deploymenty rules you are guaranteed a hill in your deployment zone if you want one. Gaming group eccentricities aside, hills and DOW cannons should be a factor to consider when choosing a carnosaur, especially one with limited shooting protection. I never understand why people always mention screening troops as if hills don't exist in games.
We play with standard rules. Pick a piece and scatter em, usually end with 2 hills and 3 forests or another hill near the middle. Obviously Warmachines will be able to pick him out, that's why I felt it necessary to include Terradons. Also I modified the list to include The Sun Standard of Chotec instead of Huanchis Totem. It doesn't solve the Cannon problem (who plays DOW anymore? I spit on armies taking "mercanary" cannons. So unfluffy), but all Shots further from 12" are -1 to hit while all within 12 are -2.

The screeners are more screeners to charges than anything. Obviously they help vs the encroaching WE bowline, but they also block LOS to my Carnosaur from those things like Chariots, Cav and giants and whatnot. Gotta get through the skinks to get to the juicy center.

Specific to your case, any high elf elite unit has a fair chance of killing the carnosaur/oldblood before it even attacks. 4 swordmasters inc champ do an average of 3 wounds for example on a carnosaur (so only 1 RBT hit needed to scare it). Then there's dragon prince and chariot charges - both are faster than you.
Granted, you have other things in your
army, but imo the carnosaur rider just isn't worth it vs HE.

Don't assume I'm crashing my General into the front of an elite unit like swordmasters. I'm not tactically challenged and I feel my posts have made that obvious.

Dragon princes and chariots are taken care of by the 3 skirmishing and 2 RnF units of skinks. In order to come assassinate my Carni rider you need to find a space to squeeze into to charge my unit. Example. My turn my 3 skirmishing units, 2 rnf units and Carni/saurus cav unit march forward a foot. The lead screeners would march at an angle toward the nearest threat, be it a chariot or DP or suttin thus opening up the frontal arc for my faster Cav (7 vs skinks 6) to charge turn 2 into whatever lies beyond. Now if those DP are smack dab in the center (people usually have them on flanks no?) the skinks won't move and instead block the charge of the DP either accepting or standing and shooting.


Wood elves - hail of doom arrow is scary enough. But also they have magic. Personally if I were using wood elves vs lizardmen I'd always have a spellweaver because I need the defense to deal with a slann (reroll dispels). This means vs a carnosaur force you will need a lot of luck not to have you oldblood immobilised by the beast cowers or imprisoned and surrounded by woods. My favourite tactic against large, expensive units.

Judging by this passage I assume you play Wood elves so you'd know how unreliable a Treesinging spam is. If anything it aids me in screening LOS from your shoting. As for HODA, ill take my chances of the Alter hitting on 3s, randomising, then wounding on 5s. Roll it out now. Not very good eh? And I still get saves. I play WEs so I know how devestating it can be vs a warmachine and how lackluster vs Heavy infantry/cav.

As for the Lore of Beasts I'd let everything fail or get through cept beast cower. It hasn't happened yet. 6dd and a scrol remember
[/quote]Meanwhile your stegadons are limited in ability without the charge


What's stopping my charge? You made a point with the move 9 DPs but not only do they cause Terror, but they're move 6 too. If I see faster flankers coming in the form of elven cav/chariots (I'd really only fear characters, WRs, or DPs) I simply move them further away and turn a Skink unit toward the charge.

[Quote]That leaves O+G. I don't use these so can't comment as much. However, a few things

Giant beats stegadon if it charges. Giants are very good at killing monsters! Oc with all that poison such a scenario is very unlikely.

You caught youself there ;)


Massed spear chukkas will endanger your carnosaur. Especially if your opponent rolls consistent 5s to hit (single shots at BS3 never seem to miss in my games...)

But can't think of much else for O+G.


Massed spear chuckas as in how many? I've only ever faced 2. But yeah that's why I got the new baner on their, I felt I was scared of bolt throwers. To be fair you didn't know my change prior to your post. Good insights though, thanks.

SteelTitan
22-02-2009, 07:36
Giants dont do anything against Lizardmen if you play it everything but stupid! Usually take it down within one round of shooting, two max. Might become slightly more difficult now without the option to scout but then still, skinks are fast...not a hard task to shoot it down really.

OMG Yesterday i played with the new LM book for the first time omg! A bloodthirster confidently flew towards my lines (to 1x10 ranked skink unit, 1x10 blowpipe skirmisher unit). Javs caused 1 wound (due to poison), the blowpipes did 4...BYE BYE bloodthirster in my first turn! :D hahaha! I was laughing myself silly (was playing against my brother so its all in good fun!) That was one of the best moments in gaming ever...especially my brother still holds in BT in great awe and reverance as this unkillable thing. Off course i got lucky when he only saved 1 out of 5 poisoned hits from my blowpipes (after 3+ armour save and 5+ ward save) but still. It does prove the ability of skinks to do some serious damage with poison. They could have easily (without any luck) caused 2 wounds on it. I love skink + poison + monsters.

On the BoR discussion; great against some things, waste against others. It worked like a charm against bloodcrushers, overkill ftw. ****** against RnF (except for negating their daemonic save), wouldnt work against most blood thirsters due to magic armour. I think its a great weapon to use, its fun, it has potential, etc but would work against everything. I will probably not use it as a standard config weapon but against daemons i like it.

Amornar
22-02-2009, 15:49
I am curious as to what people are using for an Oldblood on a carnosaur layout?

Are people using the common 8-9 s5 attack build?
Or is the blade of realities actually getting a fair amount of use?
Or something completely different?

Also what are the rest of your armies looking like? Just one stegadon or are people going with 2+? What about units of kroxigors and saurus cavalry? Just trying to get a little input on making my carnosaur list.

-Amornar

Roxors45
22-02-2009, 18:17
I am curious as to what people are using for an Oldblood on a carnosaur layout?

Are people using the common 8-9 s5 attack build?
Or is the blade of realities actually getting a fair amount of use?
Or something completely different?

Also what are the rest of your armies looking like? Just one stegadon or are people going with 2+? What about units of kroxigors and saurus cavalry? Just trying to get a little input on making my carnosaur list.

-Amornar

Blink.....blink......blink

Apparently your new to the thread. Please see page 1, I threw down an army list there that, so far, has playtested very well and has not lost. I mainly roll with the BoR when playing for fun. I don't know if I'd consider it Tournament worthy because of DoW cannon cheese and such, but still I might for friendly comp scores :)

Alternatively I've kitted out my Carnold: (see that? CARNosaur+ OLD blood. Governator? Nothing? Ill be back? No? Dammit)

Old blood with Scimitar of the Sun Replendent, Enchanted Shield, Glyph Necklace/Amulet of Itzl

Gives him 7 S5 attacks usually hitting on 4s vs other Lords (3s against RnF) plus he's sturdy with a 1+ AS and 5+ ward. I'm undecided on the talisman, don't know if I want the always 5+ because of Rule of burning iron or prevelance of No AS stuff. Still undecided.

Old blood with Pirahna Blade, Bane Head, Enchanted Shield, Amulet of Itzl.

Had this guy MURDER opposing SC's and lords (with ease in some cases). Nominate the opposing General and use your movement to get to him in a unit of Saurus Cav. Challenge (or allocate if there's a champ) and proceed in hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s or 4s (not lots of toughness 5 ot there) and each of those wounds that goes through is multiplied to 3. Great for CR and Carni only maes it better.

You can also skimp on points and give him a GW and venom of the Firefly frog and a 5+ ward for 40pts of magic. He has a 2+ save and the ward with 5 S6 poisoned and magic attacks. Might be a better comp score too this way. Or Sword of battle (turning those 4s and 3s to hit to 3s and 2s could be huge with your already above average S5) and a ward and shield.

Hope this helps

Vsurma
22-02-2009, 18:26
Anyone considering a oldblood without a carnosaur?

Just run in a unit of something else? spears, or cold ones etc?

Could give it T6 armour or steed of shadows item.

Seems worthwhile to me.

Amornar
22-02-2009, 19:54
Blink.....blink......blink

Apparently your new to the thread. Please see page 1, I threw down an army list there that, so far, has playtested very well and has not lost. I mainly roll with the BoR when playing for fun. I don't know if I'd consider it Tournament worthy because of DoW cannon cheese and such, but still I might for friendly comp scores :)

No I read your list as well, I was directing my questions to everyone, I just wanted a variety of input. I currently field my Oldblood on Carnosaur in the massive amounts of s5 attacks school of thought. But I am considering the BoR, just wanted to see how popular it really is.

My list question is stemming from the fact that I am having trouble building an army that only has the carnosaur and one stegadon variant(probably engine). I don't really want a 3+ stegadon and I am having trouble coming up with something that is both fast to get carnosaur into combat but also having some RnF saurus elements as well.

Hope that helps clarify.

-Amornar

Roxors45
22-02-2009, 20:17
No I read your list as well, I was directing my questions to everyone, I just wanted a variety of input. I currently field my Oldblood on Carnosaur in the massive amounts of s5 attacks school of thought. But I am considering the BoR, just wanted to see how popular it really is.

My list question is stemming from the fact that I am having trouble building an army that only has the carnosaur and one stegadon variant(probably engine). I don't really want a 3+ stegadon and I am having trouble coming up with something that is both fast to get carnosaur into combat but also having some RnF saurus elements as well.

Hope that helps clarify.

-Amornar

Ah I see I see. The problem with the "Carnosaur with RnF Saurus Elements as well" is that its counterproductive. Youve got Move 7 and 6 (Carni and Steg) which would like to get into combat while a MOve 4 block of Saurus are more defensive. They simply can't get there as fast as the general can. Hold your Carni back to keep up with them and it opens him up to more shooting, Magic, and time wasted is points wasted (when he could be chomping up some units).

The only way to work this is to run 2 blocks of Saurus up the middle of the board (6x3s) with some skink skirmishers as screeners. unit of 16 Saurus is 222 pts with command so theres 444. Throw a Scar vet on Cold one with each unit giving them 6x3 ranks and fear immunity along with killiness. Thats around another 300 in characters. Engine can hang in the middle of those 2 giving you magic defense and a shooty ward save as the Carni rider in a unit of Saurus Cav operate on a flank with Razors/Salamanders and terradons. Load up one flank as you casually move your anvils and hopefully all units will converge in one great clash resulting in flank charges, death, and terror tests galore.

Amornar
22-02-2009, 21:07
Yeah I tinkered around with a nice anvil of a BSB scar-vet with the Sword of the Hornet in a unit of Temple Guard, but I feel like my army gets separated and therefore can be picked off separately. I feel like you need to either go forward all assault or stay still gunline style. I don't know that might just be my perception that is totally wrong.

SteelTitan
23-02-2009, 08:24
I use a carni and a steg in 2500 points. This is what i field:

Old blood on Carnosaur

Scar Veteran (w/sword of the hornet)

Skink Priest w/Engine of the Gods (lvl 2)

Skink Priest (lvl 2)

18 saurus with spears (6x3) (Joined by Scar Veteran)
18 saurus with spears (6x3)

10 Ranked Skinks
10 Ranked Skinks

10 Skirmish Skinks
10 Skirmish Skinks

4 Kroxigors
4 Terradons

2x2 Salamander Hunting Packs


With the previous LM book, i used mark of tepok for my magic defense with 2000 points (+ chief lvl 1 w/ scrolls) but now thats cose to impossible (3 dispel dice yay). In 2000 points i would probably throw out the priest on foot and the salamanders and keep the stegadon for magic defense (lvl 2 + diadem + scroll?)


As far as Old Blood setup goes, i used to run: great weapon, venom, ward save, bane head. Work really well. I can even see this guy kill bloodthirsters with luck. Unfortunately you only get +1S from the great weapon so i might try out Blade of Tzunki instead, depending on what i face (goblins-nah, ogres-nah, khorne daemons-maybe)
Now i really like the BoR, which i will use more often. Also want to try out the +2 attacks weapon.

Amornar
23-02-2009, 13:41
Ahh ok now that is fairly similar to the lists I keep coming up with. How do you use your army? Like what tactics/moves/etc do you make? Do you find a problems keeping fast movers like the Carnosaur in sync with the rest of your rank and file units?

Thanks for all the help so far guys.

-Amornar

SteelTitan
23-02-2009, 16:28
The 2.5k army i havent played with more than once. However, what im now trying out is keeping the two saurus units close together with the stegadon either in the middle or next to one of the units. Next to one might be slightly more beneficial if you also take the wardrums so that the skinks on the flank can benefit from the +1 Ld. But i primarily want to use the steg as a centre-enforcer. Not a flanker.

I put the two RnF skinks on the sides of the centre/inner-flank to be able to divert both enemy's flankers and centres with on one side kroxs for extra support and on the other (near the centre) the old blood on carnosaur.

The skirmisher skinks then go where i need them, either in front of my saurus or help out on a flank somewhere (i can see the following situation work: RnF skinks let the opponent's fast cav (for example) fail a charge by fleeing, walk in the skirmishing skinks max 6" and pepper the opponent with 20 blowpipe shots and let the poison do the job).

The salamanders i use very flexible, they are usually also on the inner flanks. I will probably now use them more to support the centre because their template works better against large RnF units than most flank units with only one rank and stuff.

The terradons...i rarely charged with them before, even less now probably. Last battle i flew over Skulltaker and killed it with my 4 rocks! Brilliant! Just deploy them somewhere smart and redeploy (they are fast enough anyway) if you are not close to soft flankers or characters.

I never really had a problem with my carnosaur and now without the large target status it is gonna be even easier to keep it alive until each reaches combat. Because i place him on the flank (not far flank but close to the centre line within Ld reach to Saurus, and at least 2 groups of skinks) i can usually charge an opponent's flank unit on turn 2. Kill 1 or 2flank units before i turn my attention to the centre and try to hit a flank somewhere.

This is the deployment i used last time and it worked really well for me. Abbreviations are obvious i guess.
Terradons just go wherever i need them. This deployment is off course very dependent on terrain! My old blood in this case was behind a forest for example. The lines indicate the centre/inner flank/outer flank regions.

Amornar
23-02-2009, 17:24
Thanks a lot SteelTitan that really helps me get a little perspective on using that kind of a list.

blackjack
23-02-2009, 18:05
Ld9 has a 42% chance of failing a 3 consecutive leadership tests. Eat it Blood Thirster.

If that fails the Carnasaur takes S7 D3 wound bites out of his butt.

Well lets assume the BT has not Obsidian armor...

The BT will almost always get the charge with move 20' fly, 7 attacks at str 7 with reroll to hits, (assuming the most common gifts are taken). 7 attacks with 84% to hit, 84% to wound, and a 33% chance to save from the Old Blood (assuming he takes the enchanted shield.) = 2.5 wounds on dead averages, Give the BT a 30-40% chance to kill the Old blood out right with a bit of luck.

The old blood, hits 2.5 times giving him a 35% chance to take the BT out with failed LD, if he does not he wounds on 5+ the BT saves on 5+ armor and 5+ ward (assuming the basic armor of khorne). The Cari hits on 5+, wounds on 3+ and the BT gets a 5+ ward against that. Total average wounds from the OB and the Carni = .96

The odds of killing the BT with wounds in one round about NIL.

Round 2 the Old blood is dead as dilinger and the Carni needs pretty fantastic good luck not to follow in the next few rounds.

Over all the odds of a realities old blood on a carni killing a BT with no OB armor is about 20%.....

(40% change the BT kills the OB out right, then only about 35% the OB can kill him back, then the OB is dead on turn 2.)

All this assumes the BT even wants to fight the OB. With flight, or move 10, the only greater deamon an OB will ever face might be the Great unclean one unless the Daemon player wants that fight to happen or he makes a mistake or something goes very wrong for him.

SteelTitan
23-02-2009, 23:16
Luckily we have our Bane Head :-) All we need is either:

2 wounds from the old blood (=4W) and 1 wound from the carni (1-2 on d3=1W)
1 wound from the old blood (=2W) and 1 wound from the carni (5-6 on d3=3W) or 2 wounds from carni (anything but 2x 1-2 on d3)

Far from impossible i would say. Personally i will never leave home without the bane head if i know im up against a BT. And the fact that the BT is still a BT just has to be acknowledged, you cannot go toe to toe with a BT and expect to kill it every single time...but i think that is what makes it fun to try it anyway. Overall i think an well-kitted out Old Blood on Carni makes a good enough change to try it every now and then :-)

MordainThade
24-02-2009, 05:09
I do like the Old Blood on Carnosaur that a friend and I came up for in his 3k list as the second Lord slot:

Carnosaur, Spear, Light Armor, Venom of the Firefly Frog, Enchanted Shield, Glyph Necklace.

Five S6/S5 attacks + Carnosaur, Old Blood has magical + poisoned attacks (magical attacks are too useful... Ethereals, Forest Spirits, Slann, Malekith...), 1+ Armor with 5+ Ward. AND, he costs under 450 points :)

SteelTitan
24-02-2009, 08:04
Looks good, all though i would rather have the sword of striking i think...I dont know, wounding on 4s against (many) characters always give me the creeps.


A thing about the revered blade of tzunki.

It looks nice and all but dont u ppl think it is overpriced? It gives you S6, so that already is a -3 AS modifier. +1S is 20 points (sword of might) so that leaves a whopping 45 points for whatever armour save remains. Against most RnF and even elite infantry -3 is already enough to negate their AS completely, or reduce it to something unreliable as 6+. So the only thing that it matters against are 1+ or 2+ armour saves (a 5+ save isnt that good either) or the rare 0+ or better. That is usually only characters which you wont come across more than once or twice a battle (or knights which you wont have a lot of problem with anyway if you charge as the units are generally small - 6ish).

So really you pay 45 points for (considering the 1+ and 2+ what you would encounter most) an extra -2 AS modifier.

Bit steep right...

Jericho
24-02-2009, 08:14
I'm no Lizardmen expert, but personally I happily take the Sword of Might in pretty much every army list I make. Unless you come up against something with a 0+ save or something, it's not necessary to take a no-save weapon. The massive amount of points can probably be better spent elsewhere, or at least on other items for the same character to keep him alive.

Just remember, the nastier your character is the less likely he is to actually get into combat with something worth his time. People know better than to feed your combat Lord their heroes, if it can be helped.

beaumontbrawler
24-02-2009, 21:23
I'm running my OB on Carni w/ LA, shield, burning sword, and glyph necklace.

He's not a top notch character killer nor a RnF slaughterer, but he's versatile in that he does OK at either. Given the small size of the leezard army, I'm trying to build in as much versatility as possible and have done fairly well so far.

scarvet
25-02-2009, 00:19
I am in the max attack school as well, but instead a Mirror shield just in case (probably better for rank and file, but my scarvet have its puma shoes ready).

Seriously, as said before, a solid large number of attacks allow the Oldblood to level most units. Other weapons will be good if GW can clarify if they change the Mianning shield to +1A or special attack like the old one.

I am also happy to see Warseers have more consideration on deploy physical model size :P

SteelTitan
25-02-2009, 07:37
I am also happy to see Warseers have more consideration on deploy physical model size :P


uhhhh what?