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Dungeon_Lawyer
20-02-2009, 20:08
When a VC hero/lord who has the Vamp power Lord of the Dead casts Invocation of Nehek on a unit of Grave Guard do they count as skellies?(technically they are, right?) Can the caster raise GG to beyond their starting size and get +1 to roll?

Lets say a vamp hero in a unit of ghouls fought a round of CC where they benfitted from a Vamp lords ws via helm of commandment. In the next Magic phase the vamp lord then uses a staff of damnation:Would the vamp hero/ghouls still fight using the lords ws 7?

loveless
20-02-2009, 20:36
Grave Guard are Grave Guard. Skeletons are Skeletons. Lord of the Dead doesn't affect Grave Guard, regardless of how the models look ;)

I'd assume that the Helm only lasts for the combat phase, but I'd have to reread exactly what it said in the book to be sure.

Lord Dan
20-02-2009, 20:40
When a VC hero/lord who has the Vamp power Lord of the Dead casts Invocation of Nehek on a unit of Grave Guard do they count as skellies?(technically they are, right?)

Technically ghouls, fell bats, zombies, black knights, blood knights, vargulfs, and dire wolves all have skeletons in them.

...that was evidence against your point, not tactical advice.

EldarBishop
20-02-2009, 21:41
No, Grave Guard are wights... which is why they have wight blades :D

Loopstah
20-02-2009, 22:03
The Helm of Commandment is used in the Close Combat phase so it wouldn't matter if the vampire used the staff of damnation or not, as it isn't a bound spell or anything.

The helm effect only last for the phase it is used in, you need to re-use it the next turn to keep the effect.

Dungeon_Lawyer
21-02-2009, 02:02
The Helm of Commandment is used in the Close Combat phase so it wouldn't matter if the vampire used the staff of damnation or not, as it isn't a bound spell or anything.

The helm effect only last for the phase it is used in, you need to re-use it the next turn to keep the effect.

ok that makes sense--

oh and lord dan, your answer was great!:)

FictionalCharacter
13-03-2009, 02:33
quick question:

would it be legal to use invocation of nehek on a unit carrying the banner of the dead legion to raise a number of models equaled to the starting doubled unit strength?

example: a unit of 10 skeletons carries the banner of the dead legion, thus giving it a unit strength of 20 on turn one. could vc casters therefore use IoN to raise ten more skeletons?

Lord Yawgmoth
13-03-2009, 02:44
: O

holy crap.


That needs a new thread.


fluffwise: no.

RAW: yes???



Edit:
(for those interested in this query)

Invo: "...any remaining wounds raise rank and file models- normally up to the units starting strength"
BotDL: "Treat the unit carrying this banner as having twice the unit strength it actually does."

It might also depend on if a "units starting strength" is a "units starting unit strength" as one might assume.

TheDean04
13-03-2009, 02:54
quick question:

would it be legal to use invocation of nehek on a unit carrying the banner of the dead legion to raise a number of models equaled to the starting doubled unit strength?

example: a unit of 10 skeletons carries the banner of the dead legion, thus giving it a unit strength of 20 on turn one. could vc casters therefore use IoN to raise ten more skeletons?

Short answer yes. As long as you have lord of the dead as IoN goes off that unit could be greater than its starting numbers.

Lord Malorne
13-03-2009, 02:57
Starting unit strength, is, you know, when you 'buy it'.

If you think it is not at starting strength with that surely you put 10 more models at the start of the game to make it starting strength 20, then as you have 20 the starting strength becomes 40 thanks to the banner..and so on and so on...

Don't be silly, you do not get to raise more than the units starting strength, regardless of the banner.

Lord Yawgmoth
13-03-2009, 03:01
What he is really trying to get at is:

Unit of graveguard 20 strong carry the BotDL.
Can you raise 20 more GG in order to make a 40 strong unit.

(the Graveguard are counted as having a unit strength 40 at the begining of the game)


....actually, after listening to myself for a second, really it wouldn't matter because your starting US would be 40, and your current US would be 40, so no more models for you.)

Lord Malorne
13-03-2009, 03:02
Yeah I know what he was getting at, it is just not allowed.

Lord Yawgmoth
13-03-2009, 03:03
Indeed.

I agree whole heartedly.

FictionalCharacter
13-03-2009, 03:05
Starting unit strength, is, you know, when you 'buy it'.

If you think it is not at starting strength with that surely you put 10 more models at the start of the game to make it starting strength 20, then as you have 20 the starting strength becomes 40 thanks to the banner..and so on and so on...

Don't be silly, you do not get to raise more than the units starting strength, regardless of the banner.

i guess the question becomes whether or not starting unit strength incorporates the banner in the first place. if so, then a unit of 10 skeletons with the banner has a starting unit strength counting as 20 and should theoretically be able to be raised to 20 models by casters via IoN without lord of the dead. whether or not the banner would then make the unit unit strength 40 is a whole other issue and is largely irrelevant, since in this case starting strength would be locked at 20 for purposes of IoN.

if the banner is simply a modifier that does not affect what constitutes starting unit strength, then unit strength would be ten and that would quite simply be the limit.

i'm aware that it's illegal to raise more models than starting unit strength without the appropriate vampire trait. my question, i guess, is if the banner influences how starting unit strength is determined on turn one.

Lord Yawgmoth
13-03-2009, 03:07
my question, i guess, is if the banner influences how starting unit strength is determined on turn one.

inconsequential.

If you buy 10, even if your starting US is 20,

you can only ever go up to US 20 with Invo.

its just now if you have 10 models, you have 20 US (MAX)

FictionalCharacter
13-03-2009, 03:09
...actually, after listening to myself for a second, really it wouldn't matter because your starting US would be 40, and your current US would be 40, so no more models for you.)

ah, that makes sense.

so, to expand on that (this is a whole other issue). a vampire with lord of the dead could plausibly raise more models in a unit with the banner and the raised models would still count double? so if a vampire with lord of the dead raises 4 models of skeletons in a full unit with the banner they would count as 8 for unit strength purposes, no?

edit: my original question was incredibly simple now that i pause and think about it a bit. basically i'm just getting back into the game after about a seven year absence, have remnants of 3 armies, and am pouring over rules and army books trying to reacquaint myself with everything, so you'll have to forgive me.

Lord Yawgmoth
13-03-2009, 03:12
I believe so,

it would make sense for the banner to always check how much US a unit should have, and then double it.


Edit (to your edit): I'ts completely fine, : ) you had me for a while, and i wondered to myself why this had not come up yet. If i had thought of this i might have posted without sitting and thinking about it in my excitement.

XXL
13-03-2009, 03:15
Just put the BSB with the banner of dead legion in a unit of blood knights, make him leave the unit in the first m-face :P

Lord Yawgmoth
13-03-2009, 03:20
^ okay, well if you are going to go that far, then it really does matter what the definition of starting unit strength is, but i have a feeling that if you discuss this with most people before a game to get the okay, that most would find this to be a rather shady tactic....

I cannot discuss this further because I am not entirely certain what would count as a starting unit strength.

XXL
13-03-2009, 03:22
i'm aware that it's illegal to raise more models than starting unit strength without the appropriate vampire trait. my question, i guess, is if the banner influences how starting unit strength is determined on turn one.

then this question becomes intersesting again ... An argument against this is that the characters is deployed after all the units. An argument for it is that the deployment isent really a part of the "game" as for turns and so on.

The wording for the summoning powers also talks against it, the talk about -size- not strenght.....

XXL
13-03-2009, 03:24
I have no idea eather :) ppl would hate you for even talking about traying something like that though, it was clearly not ment to be so to speak

Lord Dan
13-03-2009, 04:02
Here's a fun one:

Unit of 10 GG with BotDL have US 20 at the beginning of the game. Banner is destroyed (Vaul's unmaking? Or is that only on characters?) or the effects ignored from a spell or magic item of some kind. Can the unit be raised up to US 20 (I.E., 20 models) if the banner's effects are somehow being ignored?

XXL
13-03-2009, 04:52
I think that one "sounds" almost legal lol ... The banner do come as a upgrade to the unit!

If a bsb is deployed in a unit, it would be harder (but maybe not impossible) to argue that the unit itself has a modified "starting str"...

TheDarkDaff
13-03-2009, 08:33
Invo: "...any remaining wounds raise rank and file models- normally up to the units starting strength"

If this is the correct wording for Invo then it wouldn't make a difference if the Banner could leave the unit. The "units starting strength" is 10 models while the starting unit strength of the unit is 20. Small difference but it is there.

Arnizipal
13-03-2009, 11:48
example: a unit of 10 skeletons carries the banner of the dead legion, thus giving it a unit strength of 20 on turn one. could vc casters therefore use IoN to raise ten more skeletons?
Wouldn't that be like taking a Models on foot only item first and then buying a mount afterwards (the character was on foot when you gave him the item)?

I'm pretty sure that's not was what intended by the rules.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-03-2009, 12:49
Its not supported by the rules either.



If those are direct quotes (I don't have the book) then the banner is refering to unit strength, a number based on the type of models and the number of models.

The spell is refering to the original number of models in the unit (its starting strength) if we want to take the phrase "starting strength" out of context we might as well use the average strength of the units' members i.e. 3 for a unit of skeletons.

Lord Yawgmoth
13-03-2009, 14:46
Those are direct quotes, rest assured.

(I even went so far as to question the terminology later in that post that they quoted)

FictionalCharacter
13-03-2009, 14:52
Its not supported by the rules either.



If those are direct quotes (I don't have the book) then the banner is refering to unit strength, a number based on the type of models and the number of models.

The spell is refering to the original number of models in the unit (its starting strength) if we want to take the phrase "starting strength" out of context we might as well use the average strength of the units' members i.e. 3 for a unit of skeletons.

in fairness i'm pretty sure it isn't taking anything out of context to approach 'up to the unit's starting strength' as referencing unit strength, because it obviously is. the point is that the unit's unit strength is firmly established at the start, banner or not, and the presence of the banner doesn't change how IoN can be applied.

that on foot/ mounted analogy doesn't really work either, mostly because the fact that it has nothing really to do with why the idea doesn't work. it doesn't work because if 10 models equals 20 unit strength at the start then 11 would equal 22 unit strength which is still a violation regardless. the presence of the banner (let alone when it was purchased) makes no difference because unit strength is still unit strength.

XXL
13-03-2009, 15:07
that on foot/ mounted analogy doesn't really work either, mostly because the fact that it has nothing really to do with why the idea doesn't work. it doesn't work because if 10 models equals 20 unit strength at the start then 11 would equal 22 unit strength which is still a violation regardless. the presence of the banner (let alone when it was purchased) makes no difference because unit strength is still unit strength.

I c where ure at, but the we where talking about those rare cases when the banner is lost during the game.... Then the "starting <unit> strength" would be 20, but now when the banner is lost only 10...


The spell is refering to the original number of models in the unit (its starting strength) if we want to take the phrase "starting strength" out of context we might as well use the average strength of the units' members i.e. 3 for a unit of skeletons.

Now this is probably how is was intended, it becomes especially clear when you read the rules for i e the lord of dead...

Gazak Blacktoof
13-03-2009, 15:18
@Fictional Character

I don't think they're the same at all, the unit's starting strength is not the same as the starting (or original/ initial) unit strength.

Your method will usually arrive at the same outcome except if somebody destroys the banner. We now have a situation where the unit can be doubled in size because the starting unit strength was double what would normally be expected for an identical number of the same models.

XXL
13-03-2009, 15:50
I beleave that they didnt think of the banner when writing the wording for IoN ... In a faq they would probably say that starting strenght = starting size = number of models fielded... But who really knows?

FictionalCharacter
13-03-2009, 17:07
@Fictional Character

I don't think they're the same at all, the unit's starting strength is not the same as the starting (or original/ initial) unit strength.

Your method will usually arrive at the same outcome except if somebody destroys the banner. We now have a situation where the unit can be doubled in size because the starting unit strength was double what would normally be expected for an identical number of the same models.

it definitely does present a gray area in a situation in which a unit starts with the banner and then loses it, but i don't see clarity in the rules that justifies comparing that scenario to saying 'starting strength' represents the actual S on the model. perhaps 'starting strength' does not explicitly equal unit strength, but there's certainly a legitimate argument that it can.

frankly, i don't think the rules clearly resolve the 'what if' issue for a unit that loses the banner and is then replenished. i'd wager that XXL is right and it's a circumstance that wasn't considered when the army book was written.