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Blood/|\Moon
20-02-2009, 20:23
I just had a friend of mine try something against me and I wanted to ask you all what you think. He said that in the rulebook (which I donít have in front of me) Archon and his unit are at -1 BE HIT in close combat. Now this is not the normal mark of Nurgle entry. He has his own entry in his description call CHAMPION OF NURGLE. So even with the new FAQ I donít know if their Nurgle wording change will effect this. Now here is the rub. He was in a group of Nurgle knights. I didnít think anything of this until I was attacking the knights with WS 3 chaos ogres of Khorne with great weapons. He tried telling me I needed 6ís to hit them. Is this right? I told him flat out NO and rolled to hit needing 5ís but it really did get me wondering. I had a weapon skill of 2 vs. them, I need 5ís to hit then add the bonus of -1 to hit due to ArchonÖ :wtf:

Any help would be appreciated.

Angelust
20-02-2009, 20:29
I'm afraid your friend was right, and you should have rolled 6's to hit any of his knights.


MoN makes your ogres WS2, meaning they need 5's to hit the WS5 knights. Archaon forces your whole unit to hit at -1, which makes that 6's to hit. MoN makes you -1WS, Archaon makes you -1 to hit. Pure and simple.

Lord Dan
20-02-2009, 20:30
The bonuses do not stack, so you played it out right.

Angelust
20-02-2009, 20:31
Why do the bonuses not stack? One is MoN, the other is a special ability.

Edit: Rules wording as follows -

"Archaon is the chosen of Nurgle and hence is immune to poison attacks - these must roll to wound as normal. Enemies are at -1 to hit Archaon (and any unit he joins) with shooting attacks, and also at -1 to hit with attacks in close combat."


This is WAY better then MoN, and is not "stacking". They're two separate abilities.

loveless
20-02-2009, 20:32
The bonuses do not stack, so you played it out right.

Why wouldn't two different rules stack? Did I miss that part in the FAQ?

Lord Dan
20-02-2009, 20:38
Why wouldn't two different rules stack?

Because I said so. :p

For some reason I thought he was just talking about a regular character with MoN. My bad.

Angelust
20-02-2009, 21:27
Haha. I concede

Neckutter
22-02-2009, 03:04
6s to hit, yep. they are indeed different abilities. its just too bad the MoN says what Archaon's ability says.
*Sigh* for my nurgle warriors i wont use anymore.

at any rate, you're fighting archaon.... how far did you flee? :)

Lord Dan
22-02-2009, 04:28
how far did you flee? :)

There were some left alive?

Gazak Blacktoof
22-02-2009, 09:21
@Blood Moon

Why didn't you agree to this during the game? Its a very nasty combo but there's nothing that I can see that would make me doubt that they stack.

Feed archaon some warhounds next time.

Lorenzen
22-02-2009, 09:59
your friend should have just shown you archaons rules then and there, as they pretty much state that they stack.

flat out telling him no is quite rude to be honest, not only was he in the right, but as archaon has a totally different rule to the normal mark of nurgle you should have asked to see it, because theres a reason you put archaon with nurgle knights over pretty much all others.

theunwantedbeing
22-02-2009, 12:38
The -1 to hit archaon is not also given to his unit in combat, as the rule doesnt say it is.
So you wont need 6's to hit any unit he has joined, mark of nurgle or not.

Although the shooting modifiers both stack as Archaon rule states that the unit also benefits from the -1 to hit modifier.

Seeing as the and any unit he joins is in brackets before the words with shooting attacks then it is clear that the bit in brackets is meant for that particular part of the rule only.
The combat modifier is simply and enemies are at -1 to hit in close combat, note there is a lack of anything bracketed that states this modifier also applies to any unit he joins,

If you are RAWing that you apply the modifier to all enemies regardless whether they are attacking him or not in close combat then you are also going to have to back up the equally silly Berserker Sword RAW where you gain additional attacks based on how many enemy models are in base contact with each other.

Clearly the berserker sword ruling means "in base contact with the bearer", so clearly we can assume that the -1 to hit in close combat modifier Archaon has is only meant for attacks directed at him.

That and balancewise....it would be the most balanced option to have him only be -1 to hit, and not his unit as well!

Gazak Blacktoof
22-02-2009, 12:52
I suppose you could interpret it like that.

I clearly responded too quickly last time and I can see where the confusion is coming from.

To me it seems like you can't interpret the section after the comma without knowing who the rule applies to, this apears to be, "Archaon (and any unit he joins)".

Reading the section, "and also at -1 to hit with attacks in close combat." by itself doesn't make any sense.

Lorenzen
22-02-2009, 15:21
by the reasoning that the bit in brackets only counts for shooting then archaons rule states you are at -1 to hit in combat.. doesnt say when directed at him. its a blanket rule.

if i really wanted to be picky i could point out it also says he doesnt even have to be in combat.. you're just always at -1 to hit in close combat.

so take your pick.. either its always at -1 for every combat forever.. or its -1 to archaon and any unit hes joined :p

The Red Scourge
22-02-2009, 19:04
... its always at -1 for every combat forever.

This is my pick. Its sounds the most appropriate. He is a special character after all, and not just some random second rate nurgle lord. ;)

Lord Dan
22-02-2009, 21:36
either its always at -1 for every combat forever.. or its -1 to archaon and any unit hes joined :p

Or it's -1 to every combat forever AND to Archaon and any unit he's joined. :p

Neknoh
22-02-2009, 21:57
I have to agree

Archaon (and any unit he has joined), is at -1 to hit from shooting, and at -1 to hit in combat

Is that NOT what the rule says? (taken from memory)

It's clearly reffering to, both RAW and RAI, Archaon (and any unit he has joined)

knightime98
23-02-2009, 02:25
How about a 7 to hit.. with transmutation of lead in a multiplayer game.. 5's to hit from weapon skill..
-1 to hit Archaon and -1 to hit from spell..
You need a 7 to hit in combat..
How does that work...
I'd just rather have fear and it states you need 6's to hit.. which would over-ride a 7..
Sweet..
Gotta love complicating the situation.. Lovely, I say...

kramplarv
23-02-2009, 04:26
Because I said so. :p

For some reason I thought he was just talking about a regular character with MoN. My bad.

You'd better hope Archaon dos not read this one!!!!

Gazak Blacktoof
23-02-2009, 07:39
You never need worse than a 6+ to hit a model in close combat, have a look at the section on rolling to hit.

Blood/|\Moon
23-02-2009, 16:52
Well thank you all for posting on this. (Itís my first topic here)
I was not really as rude as I sounded to my opponent; he is a very good friend of mine. I just told him that I am on all the Warhammer boards and have read pretty much every good combo/ character build that they can all come up with and have never hear about Archon's group being -2 to hit with shooting and in close combat. I figured someone would have made some sort of a deathstar unit out of this by having 7 knights of Nurgle with full command and a blasted standard and throwing in a standard bearer with shield/flail, MR (2) and soporific musk. That's a killer little 10 pack of knights. +3 CR in combat, -2 to be hit air/land, 5+ ward from heavy shooting, MR 2, up to 19 strength 5 hit's 10 with no armor save or mix it up a bit with a few strength 7 hit.

I just figured I would have heard something before then. Thanks for confirming the rules. I told him what you all said and he is just beaming with pride now. :D

Take care