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Lord_Byron
06-12-2005, 22:42
I have a question for you folks who own current Wood Elf army books. Is there a limit to the amount of times that Tree Singing can be successfully cast on a single piece of woods? The reason I ask is, I played a battle vs Wood Elves recently where a single wood moved over 13 inches in one turn. This seems ridiculous to me that a group of large plants, rooted to the spot could possibly move faster than my ogres. Please let me know, thanks.

Keller
06-12-2005, 23:59
While I do not have the new book, I would be inclined to think that you can only move each wood once per turn. Otherwise, the wood elves could move a unit, which is in that wood and goes with it, far beyond what they should be able to move.

CarlostheCraven
07-12-2005, 01:51
The spell specificallty states that "a wood can be moved more than once in the same magic phase" - p 79, last sentence of 1st pp.

That is very explicit - so yes the wood can be moved multiple times. Stupid tree-huggers...

Cheers

Lord_Byron
07-12-2005, 04:09
Thanks. That's bad news. It really turns those forests into fantasy troop transports. Time to start spending 500 + points in magical defense to just stop the tree singing. :cheese:

m1s1n
07-12-2005, 04:35
Yes, move your poorly armored units right into combat. See how that turns out for you. Honestly though--I think that's the purpose of the spell, to make it easier for you to position your already fast troops.

Lord_Byron
07-12-2005, 04:52
I'd hardly call high toughness units with a scaly skin armor save and a demonic ward save poorly armored. When you have a forest with 3 treekin, 2 treemen, 8 dryads and a few mages in it, move from the opponents deployment zone to an inch in front of your well armored knights on turn one, you'll appreciate the cheeseness of tree singing as well as I. What are you going to do, go into the woods after them? HAH. Sit there and get charged, ok. Try and redirect your line of advance only to have the woods back up 8 inches, scoot over 4 and end up right back in front of your main unit again? That's freaking awesome. Just last night I was playing a three player game, so granted things were screwy to begin with, and I ended up in a jacked sort of deployment zone with a lava flow (impassable) on the right and a marsh (difficult/very difficult) on the left, leaving me funneled through a 10 inch area to break out of my deployment zone. The wood elf player tree sung a forest over a foot across the table, plugged that little gap, and left me slogging my entire force through difficult terrain for 4 turns just to escape my deployment zone. That was a fun game!

Sorry about the rant.

I understand being on the receiving end of magehammer from any army is frustrating, but I believe it to be extra painful from the woodies.

Flame
07-12-2005, 09:05
That would be one big wood!

SuperBeast
07-12-2005, 11:31
13"?! Without knowing the size of the game I can only surmise, but that looks excessive to the point of being suspicious.

Having accidentally abused this in a game (opponent conceded as his infantry were completely surrounded by woods), a quick check list for WE Tree singing (both for and against) and how to spot "rulesmanship".

Tree singing has an 18" range from the caster, and can be cast upon the same wood multiple times.
The limitation of 1 casting per caster still applies though!
Treemen have tree-singing as a power 3 bound spell, and Treeman ancients (lords) may use the bound spell twice per magic phase.
The basic spell either moves the wood D3+1 inches in a direction nominated before casting or causes D6 S4 hits against an enemy unit wholly/partially within the wood. Not both.
A wood cannot be moved if a) it contains enemy models, b) it contains part (but not all) of a WE unit.
WE units can only be transported if they are entirely within the wood.
When a wood moves, regardless of what distance was rolled, it must stop when it contacts a unit, either WE or enemy.


And finally...
There are two magic items that affect tree singing.
Calaingor's Stave allows the same caster to cast Tree-singing as many times as they choose (power dice permitting), and adds 1" to the distance rolled (so D3+2).

The Deepwood Sphere allows the caster to re-roll the dice to determine distance/number of wounds caused by the spell.

These are both Arcane items, and as such cannot be taken by the same character. The effects are not global, so they only affect spells cast by the bearer.
They cannot be used together!
(ie. D3+2" movement with a reroll is not possible)

Hope this clears up any confusion for people.

Keredh
10-12-2005, 19:42
Tree singing has an 18" range from the caster, and can be cast upon the same wood multiple times.

Does the 18" range only apply to the first function of the spell or also to the damage dealing part? There's a discussion how to read the spell's description.

"The spell may be cast on a wood within 18", provided there are no enemy models within it".

That directly contradicts the text in the direct damage version of the spell, where an enemy unit must be at least partially within the woods to be affected, and range isn't mentioned at all. I can't see either part of the quoted sentence applying to the direct damage version.

So, there are two different versions of the spell. The movement version has a range and must have no enemy units in the wood. The direct damage version seems to have no range and required enemy units to be at least partially in the wood.

What do you think?

Keredh

Drake Dun
13-12-2005, 01:33
So, there are two different versions of the spell. The movement version has a range and must have no enemy units in the wood. The direct damage version seems to have no range and required enemy units to be at least partially in the wood.

I have just started WHFB and Wood Elves and have the exact same question... Under the English rules I think it is an open question but tend to agree with your conclusion. On the other hand, for what it is worth, the Japanese version states explicitly that the 18" (36 cm in Japan) rule applies to both versions of the spell.

Drake

Festus
13-12-2005, 08:34
Hi

Not having the WA:WE here. The spell has two effects, which are different if there are enemies in the wood or not. Both effects have 18" range to the wood itself. The enmey units affected may be further away concealed by the wood, IIRC.

Greetings
Festus

SuperBeast
13-12-2005, 08:50
Got the book with me...

The first part (movement) says that it may be cast on a single wood within 18" of the caster, "provided there are no enemy models in it".
So this part must be exclusive from the damage dealing part of the spell; if there are no enemies in the wood, then you can't hurt them. Stands to reason.

The damage dealing description simply reads as follows
"Alternatively, the spell can be used to inflict D6 S5 hits on a single enemy unit that is even partially within a wood or similar terrain feature".

As the first part specifies "wood" but the second also allows "or similar terrain feature"
Going by the letter of the rules, there is no range for the damage dealing part of the spell, as the only time it mentions the 18" range is in the same sentence it specifies that no enemy models may be in it.

Would make sense in a way, as Master of the Wood doesn't have a minimum range either.

I'm as surprised as you are! I might have actually used it offensively in the past if I'd known...

Festus
13-12-2005, 08:59
Wow!

But I am quite sure that this will be errataed (maybe not so soon :( )

Greetings
Festus

SuperBeast
13-12-2005, 09:03
Maybe.
It looks like such a deliberate distinction though...

Ah well, I'll just have to enjoy it while it lasts... :evilgrin:

Catpipe
14-12-2005, 03:29
the damage part has no limit (watch out mages who like to hide in forests). Its not that overpowered as no sane opponent will willingly put his units into a forest against wood elves. (certainly not after the first game). Also if you are afraid of movable forests just plonk a disposable unit of goblins/gnoblars/ etc into the forest that way your opponent cant move the forest. Sure he can damage the unit but it will slow them down for a turn.

Flypaper
14-12-2005, 06:35
Also if you are afraid of movable forests just plonk a disposable unit of goblins/gnoblars/ etc into the forest that way your opponent cant move the forest.
...Skavenslaves, Hobgoblins. We don't all have two-point models, you know. ;)

[Edit: a stupid post in hindight, I guess my point was just that "goblins/gnoblars" isn't the kind of progression which should reasonably have an "etc" after it! :angel:]