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fishound7
21-02-2009, 01:15
Thane w/GW, rostone, oathstone, ropreservation (goes with warriors)
Thane bsb w/Mrogromil, ropreservation, rocleave (goes wither hammers)
Runesmith w/shield , rostone, rospellbreaking x 2

24 warriors w/shield, full cmd
22 Longbeards w/ rostoicism, robattle, full cmd
20 hammers w/ rocourage, full cmd
20 slayers no cmd

10 crossbows w/GW
10 thunders w/shield

Bolt thrower w/eng, ropen, roburn
Grudge thrower w/ roaccuracy, roburn
organ gun
gyro

So here is my list i'm painting and thinkin on using. I'm thinking on dropping the hammers for another unit of 24 warriors and a additional bolt thrower. I know i should put shields on hammers but it gets so costly and i'm cutting corners in order to fit more troops. If i'm gunna cut anything i'll cut from the slayers to fit whatever since they are tarpit anyway. I'm thinking maybe dragon slayer with slayer unit or some gaint slayers or both. Any suggestions??

So... please comment

Fate
21-02-2009, 02:00
From my opinion too much combat units, no lord and nearly no warmachines... I really have doubts about how far this roster is going to take you, specially since you charge range is only 6 and there isn't even a anvil to boost your speed.
Also against shoter armies there is no way this will last, at least a strollaz's rune?
Last but not least. 5 dice and 2 runes of spellbreaking will last you for one round of magic against the average magic army with 4 mages (I say average cause the deamons can pump an insane amount of magic). I hope you really have a way to be in combat by the second turn or your army will take the toll.

lcfr
21-02-2009, 03:42
I like your list, it's a pretty balanced Dwarf army. My standard list is fairly similar so I'll try and make some constructive criticism without effectively supplanting your list w/mine.

Lose the GWs on your quarrelers and replace them w/shields; you'll more than likely be charged, and light armour won't give you much of a chance to respond w/those expensive GWs. Shields will increase your survivability and staying power; something you'll hear Dwarf players saying all the time: anything that can have a shield, should have a shield! This includes first and foremost your Hammerers! MRBalance & scroll for your Runesmith might serve you better than 2x scroll and RStone, but that's just my personal preference; if you've managed to get by w/5DD and 2x scroll then keep doing what works.

I think you can spare points easily by cutting down your Slayers...it's a huge unit as far as Slayers go; I think they're better as a tarpit than as a combat unit; for nearly the same price you can have Longbeards w/shields, who are much more effective imo at winning combats. I think you should cut these guys to no more than 10-12 if you're intent on keeping them at all, and committing points to shields for all your Dwarfs should be priority #1. A second bolt thrower, if you can find the points from cutting slayers, would be a good choice too; as it stands you only have one warmachine that has a shot and taking out big nasties.

lcfr
21-02-2009, 03:47
From my opinion too much combat units, no lord and nearly no warmachines... I really have doubts about how far this roster is going to take you, specially since you charge range is only 6 and there isn't even a anvil to boost your speed.
Also against shoter armies there is no way this will last, at least a strollaz's rune?
Last but not least. 5 dice and 2 runes of spellbreaking will last you for one round of magic against the average magic army with 4 mages (I say average cause the deamons can pump an insane amount of magic). I hope you really have a way to be in combat by the second turn or your army will take the toll.

The OP presented a list that is obviously not geared towards offense or turn 2 charges (which is not the norm for most non-cavalry based armies, let alone stunties :wtf:), but your only critique is that he should have a playstyle more like yours. 'Anvil/Strollaz Dwarfs' is not the only way to play w/Dwarfs.

Fate
21-02-2009, 03:51
I never said it was. I merely stated that for a CC army he has the inabillity to charge the enemy and that will take it's toll as the more lekely result is for the units to get charged and broken in a single sound of combat. Also if he finds a shooter army I belive that he wants to get closer to them quickly which should be normal? Dunno, maybe I'm wrong but for the dwarves to hit the enemy, they should at least kinda... Well be alive?
Also not taking a lord is a mistake too, it's the only thing who can really pump some good amount of runes. It can even be a combat lord, it still gets 125 points for runes and well can be a very though cookie to crack.

fishound7
21-02-2009, 16:00
OK changed the list up with suggestions in mind tell me what you think

Lord w/gw,rostone,shield bearers (goes with hammers)
thane w/ gw, shield,rostone,oathstone,ropreservation (goes with warriors)
thane bsb w/Mrogromil, ropreservation, rocleave (goes with longbeards)
Runesmith w/shield, Robalance, rospellbreaking (goes with hammers)

24 warriors w/shield full cmd
19 Longbeards w/shield full cmd, rostoicism, robattle
17 hammers w/shield, Mrogrungi, champion, standard

10 crossbows w/shield
10 thunders w/shield

Bolt thrower w/eng
Grudgethrower w/roaccuracy, roburn
Cannon w/roforging
organ gun
gyro

So now i feel very combat infantry light now but what i got is elite. I've always wanted to fit in that lord somewhere anyway. I also feel extremely charactor heavy. 587 points in charactors ouch! I felt i needed to fit in Mrogrungi somewhere because i have so few numbers in combat troops that a 5+ ward save to shooting will hopefully maintain thier numbers for combat. I don't want to run a anvil list. I feel anvils are too expensive and risky for me. I also hate gunlines. I'm trying to run a classic dwarven set up thats a all comers list that isn't too cheesy but competitive if possible. I wish i could add 2 more models to the hammers and longbeards for expected casulties but i'm in a super points crunch at the moment. Something that also makes me cringe are 13 point combat block models (hammers)

Something i could tweak would be to drop the cannon and pick up 2 more bolt throwers with one having ropen to kill chariots. But in order to do so i'd have to drop all my musicians. On a lighter note I have less models to paint with this list. Too bad i already painted the slayers.
Please leave your thoughts on this new list. Is it a improvement from the previous?

lcfr
21-02-2009, 16:25
It wouldn't hurt to drop the non-BSB Thane and use the points on a 2nd BT and more troops. MRChallenge on your Lord will come in handy as well.

Fate
21-02-2009, 17:12
I still think you're using your characters wrong. The lord only takes a rune of stone? How long is he going to live then when someone charges the unit he's in?
A master rune of stell is awesome for him, specially if you give him shield bearers. Now try giving him a master rune of spite for a ward save of 4+ which you're going to need. The last 30 could be a rune of stone and probable a rune of might so you can double your strenght against things like dragons and most other combat characters. Use a shield too and you'll have a save of 0+ and since no one hits with any strenght above 5, you will always have an armor save of 2+, a ward save for killing blows or weapons which give no saves.

I think your runesmith should stick to what he does best, dispelling. 3 runes of spellbraking on him plus the 5 dice to the dispell pool will ensure one to 2 turns of magic stop.

The other thane I think should be a really combat oriented character and less for save. GW and then rune it with the rune that allows great weapons and 2 extra attacks.

I still think the strollaz's rune would be awesome for your BSB, but if you're not that eager to get up close and personal. That's with you.

Again I think that on a general note your combat units are small. Maybe remove the thunderers since they have less range and are more expensive to boost the longbeards and the hammarers?

fishound7
22-02-2009, 00:14
So about the dwarf lord. I don't want to spend a heap load of points on him. He is already dumb expensive already imo. Maxing out his points isn't what i want. I don't want a lord to cost as much as one of my combat blocks. Especially since he's so avoidable. Chances are imo that unit will be pitted with a tarpit unit anyway. I'll like to keep him mobile (non-oathstone) or close to the other units so after deployment i'll just move my lord into a unit that needs his cr if needed. I basically only want him for the royal blood rule and Mainly leadership. Plus the threat of him on the board.

I'm trying to make each unit as independant as possible and hard to break as possible. I don't want deathstar units which are stupid easy to avoid in a non-anvil list. I understand the use of Mrochallenge thou. But at the moment can't fit it in plus i'm spending Way to much points on charactors as is imo.

About the non-bsb thane I'm going for the oathstone stubborn squeeze with my battleline. So he is kinda important. It was the oathstone/stubborn or unbreakable squeeze in the previous list. I could put my longbeards on the edge but then that leaves them open for flank charges.

The idea i'm going for is to shape their battleline with shooting so my blocks can handle the combat. In example take ranks off key units that will face my battleline so my static cr will win. Correct me if i'm wrong but thats what dwarves excel at right static cr? I'm going for the classic dwarven tactics thing. Sit back and shoot and break against the shield wall of unmovable dwarves.

I'd like to add I read a lot of forums but haven't played this game in awhile. So... I might be missing about some things.... Shortly i'm gunna be finished painting and then i'll start playing again. This list is kinda sorta geared for vc and deamons but not in a super cheesy way. Or at least thats what i was going for.

Again please comments are welcomed.

fishound7
22-02-2009, 00:26
does the old battle tactics with dwarves not work now??

lcfr
22-02-2009, 02:19
Yes, your list is a classic example of utilizing Dwarfs' high toughness, high AS and SCR against opponents who ought to be weakened by your shooting. Fate's entitled to his/her views, but I think maxxed out Dwarf lords and steamroller theory is not the norm for Dwarf players out there.

Fate
24-02-2009, 01:15
Sure, your lord will be cheap but easy to kill and then you not only wasted his points, but you also gave extra 100 points for killing the general. Also the lord is dirty cheap, compare him with other characters and you'll find that the most cheaper are the weakly human characters.

Yes, your units won't charge often or even at all but what do you prefer, a small unit that gets nearly wiped out on a charge, or one who might actually have enough numbers to take it?

The long beards are the charge takers, they are the stubborn ones, not the chargers...

Shooting is smoething that is supposed to work on dwarves, but you don't have enough to make it work and if you are not willing to dig into heavy machine defense, then you need to really push your characters and units.

Don't think that a unit of hammerers with a lord inside, even if with loads of stuff will be a tar pit, they will be charged and you want to know why. If you concentrate your points in 2 or 3 units, what is going to be the alternative to charge them? Game tie?

That's why my current list works. I have a anvil which is expensive. 2 dirty expensive combat units and then heavy warmachines. It's not just coming through the shooting, it's getting the points in the big units and the lord.

Last and as an answer to fishound7. No, Static CR does not work, it never worked, Static CR is a myth. All armies have he so called, big mean units, they rip through static CR like if nothing existed. So why do you wanna go with it?

Gorknoth
06-03-2009, 10:02
First of all, Dwarfs are not meant to get the first charge, it's nothing you can count on.
Baiting with the copter, using the anvil and rune of slowness can certainly be an ace in the sleeve, but don't count on it to happen.
Countercharging on the other hand will more likely happen, especially since you will more often than not stand your ground. Position flank elements near your tarpits.
Slayers and hammerers are great at this, not sure 'boot breakers since I've never used them, hammerers seem to be able to do what the breakers can do, better..
at one more point per model, they carries greatweapon, are stubborn(LD9!) and only suffers from one less point in save.. Oh, NEVER bring your hammerers without shields, use the shield when charged (mostly), and the gw for that ocational charge.

Allways bring at least some shooty units, they will put pressure on ure opponent (maybe forcing him to make a stupid charge), and compete with the shooty armies. plus they are great as a threat for characters.

If you're going to field the lord: in the name of grimnir, tool him up. there's really no point in taking him without utilizing the high allowance of runes on him, take some bearers with him to.
I'd rather go with thanes as they're alot cheaper. they have 75 points to spend in runes so they can really kick ass!

*consider droping the lord, thanes are less points for not too much less efficiency. One lord is easier to avoid than a pair of thanes.
also consider taking an Anvil for replacement.

*consider taking one more boltthrower to to utilize the 2for on special slot.
Maybe drop the organgun or the stonethrower. organgun is somewhat less reliable and have less range than the others.

*Take shields for your hammerers!

*never underestimate rangers :)