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inq.serge
21-02-2009, 13:04
Since DoW, the most characterful* and awesome* army in the game is going, I can't decide between socialist bretonians or wood elves.

Which do you think is better/more characterful/more awesome:

Wood Elves:

3000 pts:
Lords
Highborn on dragon (what should I give him? I don't know what's good for a WE dragon lord. Spirit sword? Wraithstone for terrorbombing?)

Either an treeman ancient or a spellweaver. Which should I take? Glamour or no glamourweave? The only hit on 6s in challenges seem good for the treeman.

Or maybe an other high-born wild rider (I like wild riders), with the harp. In a wild rider unit.

Heroes

1+ Branchwraith

Spellsingers?

Nobles? A scout with starfire/hagbane seems cool.

Here again I don't know what's good.

I like armies with many characters.

Core:
1 unit of glade riders

Dryads?

What more should I take?

Spec:

I love the wild riders (model-wise), so they're a must.
Dancers seem awesome, are they?
Warhawks seem cool too.
I don't like the tree-kin.
I have my doubts in the eternal guard.

Rare: 3 treemen (one of the ancient). Maybe replace one with way-watchers? Or a great eagle?
_
I'd like a small swift killy army. Extra cc.

Would this army do good against the rest, if I use all kinds of tactical manoeuvres and feints?
____

Or

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Socialist Bretonians:

3000pts

1 prophetess and 2 damsels: What items and what lores?

1 lord with virtue of empathy (How many virtues may a character have? I think I'd prefer more virtues and less materialism)
Questing or grail? If questing, then I think I'd prefer the can opener bastard-sword. What more to take?

3 paladins with virtue of empathy, one with banner.
Questing or grail?

I like the idea of having an extra hero-slot. And technically, I kind of have 4 generals.
__

Core:
1 knight of the realms unit since I must take them.

Men at arms and bowmen. How many bowmen skirmishers may I take? Are they 0-1?

How big bowmen units should I take if I put them in a single line? 25?
_

Rare: Obviously 3 trebuchets, I don't want to lose.
____

The army is a revolutionary force against Leon Leoncour**.

Does this army have a chance at all?

And are peasants affected by the blessing, because then, I maybe don't need to Pray at all. Or maybe I should give the bless-re-gain to one damsel and let all characters start in one unit?
______

Which army is cooler/better/more awesome?
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* Depends on what you find characterful/ awesome.

** See the "Puntastic" thread for the pronunciation of Leon Leoncour my army will be using.

sroblin
21-02-2009, 18:06
I must say I'm greatly intrigued by your concept army of Brettonian revoutionaries!

That said, the major tactical issue that needs to be addressed is how to make an army of cheap anvil blocks actually defeat tough enemy units?

Cheap peasant skirmishing archers are a great; magical offense is fine- paladins leading the units will help- a Grail standard bearer will be effective when engaging enemy blocks- and the trebuchets can definitely force the enemy to advance. All those elements are there, and they will help make such a list work- but the enemy will still reach your infantry line, and they will include tough cavalry units and elite infantry, not just orc boyz or empire swordsman- and how do you defeat them then? Even enemy anvils will tend to win straight fights because of their better stats.

I think flank charges are a key tactic when were talking about an anvil infantry army, and the only unit that is really ideal for them in the Brettonian list are Knights. Including a few more units of 5-6 rebel knights (possibly errant), I think would substantally enhance the list. I'm not talking power-buses of 9-12 meant to win the fight on their own (and takig away from the theme of the list), but small support units that will help tip the balance in favor of your infantry when they engage. Fluff wise, they could be disaffected knights errant and sympathetic religious officials; historically, revolutions don't succeed without the support of some of the middle class after all! Mounted Yeomanry can also provide a flank charge, as long as you don't expect them to kill much- but the knights are still preferable for giving the list some needed durability.

I know this represents a dilution of the original vision, but I a few small knight support units would make the list as a whole much more viable tactically.

The Wood Elf army list, on the other hand, is great fun and an almost completely opposite style of play. Fast, highly skilled, units with almost no static CR. You may prefer the greater variety of more flexible units you are working with. On the other hand, the background is a lot less unique than socialist Brettonians,and if you can make that list work it will be impressive.

inq.serge
21-02-2009, 19:34
I was thinking of replacing the spellcasters with 2 more paladins and a lord to skip out the religion.

Would the bret army still survive?

And I dislike the idea of more knights, but, maybe.

I do have 5 5ed glade riders with shield and spears (and one is converted into a singer/songwriter), so I can use them as yeomen, but I dislike the idea of cavalry. You know, a full plate with chain and leather costed AFAIK IIRC around ~67000 in modern values and a warhorse twice that. But I'm sure there would be knights, especially young errants, who would support their anarchist-socialist syndicate society.

But, if I take cavalry, then I might mount some characters.

And pray, yay or nay?

Any suggestion for character items? And may they have multiple virtues?

_____

Are three trees too many?
__

I was thinking of sculpting most of the models (at least characters), so Wood elves are leading on that front, but, as you said, the socialist brets have a more awesome background.

sroblin
21-02-2009, 20:02
I'm not an expert on Brettonian, but a few thoughts:

As for praying: an infantry army such as yours is generally going to be on the defensive, so they have less need for the first turn, and might as well go for the ward save (your men at arms need every advantage they can get!). However, if they do go first (a50-50 possibility without the vow), they do get a 'free' round of shooting out, however, and you may feel that your 3 trebuchets, longbowmen, and mages may be able to knock out something vital before the enemy can advance or respond, so there is that to consider.

As for the knights, I think you simply need to figure out a way to defeat stuff in combat using a core of men-at-arms, which are below average infantry. Supports units will help you, but only so much; Brettonian shooting can be surprisingly decent, but not good enough to stand on its own as a primary method of victory IMO. (Other's may disagree). YOu may wish to consider the skaven horde army list, which I only vaguely understand, but basically consists of deploying a large numbr of of cheap infantry blocks in a checkerboard pattern so that whatever the enemy unit charges, they will get flanked the following turn. Personally I think the Brettonian cavalry (preferably knights, bu Yeoman will sometimes do the job), as the only obvious way to provide some hammers for your anvils, but I can understand they are a distasteful solution fluff wise.

As for the fun factor, consider whether you would enjoy using an army the way it is meant to work (and the full array of options that entails), or whether you would rather take a limited army that isn't designedto work and try to find creative means to make it work anyway (and others may be able to speak more authoritatively over whether that can be done). Some people enjoy that kind of creative challenge, others are frustrated it by it (with legitimate reasons.)

inq.serge
21-02-2009, 20:14
Both seem so awesome.

Maybe I should make the wood elves first, and, if I have time/will over, make the socialist Bretonians?

Kill-Freedom
22-02-2009, 06:34
I use to play wood elves, key to them is running :D most games i could use my fast cavalry to block march moves and flee form charges and never actaully engage an enemy unit in close combat until turn 4 or 5

What i found was, you should always set your archer up, 1 inch back form your deployment like, meaning be about 25 inchs form enemy, it gives you another turn to shoot them ^^ if you play your cards right

Lots of players arent that bright and play an attacking game with them, cause they have no patience and lack good tactics haha, if your one of these types of people, who need to charge, then dont play wood elves

inq.serge
22-02-2009, 08:28
I don't need to charge, I've played skinks :) .

Awilla the Hun
22-02-2009, 10:28
More socialist bretonnians?

The glorious Chairman Stahl offers the hand of friendship and unity, on behalf of his Red Guards, and of the oppressed Proletariat of Bretonnia. May our revolutionary tide crush all the enemies before it! It is your choice, Comrade General...

lachlanwizard
04-03-2009, 06:46
As soon as I finish my stoic dark elves i'm starting on a communist bret army. I've always liked the idea of a peasant heavy army and the idea of having a huge red hammer and sickle on a palading battle standard, blows my mind. And i'll have a unit of grail knights who are made up from ranks of magically potent bretonnian men who went into hiding with the communists before being snatched up by the wood elves.

Commissar Vaughn
04-03-2009, 07:07
I like the sound of the socialist bretonnians, ( "Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" ) especially as the bretonnian player in the campaign im running at the mo has got fed up with the repeated failure of his knights and set up a "anarcho-syndicalist commune".

Anyway, apart from the obvious lots of archers defended by blocks of bloody peasants, Id suggest a fairly good number of mounted peasants(yeomen/squires/horsethieves etc) to give the enemy the run around. You could also mount up a couple of paladins for trouble shooting. Use your light cav to slow the enemy advance, and then to misdirect his charges. Fast cav is very handy for making your opponent either stand still for another turn or for charging out at a funny angle against a unit of 5 cheap and annoying gits who leg it, leaving an exposed flank perfect for applying a big ranked up unit of farmers and Dennis with his tinopener...

Kill-Freedom
04-03-2009, 12:22
More socialist bretonnians?

The glorious Chairman Stahl offers the hand of friendship and unity, on behalf of his Red Guards, and of the oppressed Proletariat of Bretonnia. May our revolutionary tide crush all the enemies before it! It is your choice, Comrade General...

Brets need an update, they fail, i remember playing a bret in a GW tourn once, he was gloating about how good he was and how he won other tourns, my vampires, wiped the floor with him, massacre LOL

Lets just say he gave me enough points to win the tourn :D

sroblin
04-03-2009, 12:55
Brets need an update, they fail, i remember playing a bret in a GW tourn once, he was gloating about how good he was and how he won other tourns, my vampires, wiped the floor with him, massacre LOL


Brettonians are still considered a very powerful army. They can pretty much all charge on turn two, packing up to two units of knights per enemy unit with between 7 and 9 lance attacks in the lance formation not counting characters and a rank bonus! And a 5+ ward save versus all high strength attacks. And flying knights, etc.

Of course, an army that needs to break the enemy on the the charge to win isn't going to do very well against Undead. The Vamire Counts list is, after all, considered more powerful than everything but Daemons.

garythewargamer
04-03-2009, 13:13
To answer your question about virtues is this.
A character can not have two virtues, that would be kind of worthless like a mage being able to use two lores at the same time.

You can have different characters with the same virtue but it is costly. The second time you take the same virtue it cost you double. The third time you take the same virtue it costs you triple.

Therefore you can see that it is not to be used by heros as they only have a 50 point limit.

garythewargamer
04-03-2009, 13:35
We have a WE player where I play that runs an all cav list. He just runs around and shoots at everything.

I have been looking at a Bretonnia list like you are trying to put together. My theory is that the Knights are mostly away charging something for honor and the lady. Or checking out the brothels and beer barns along the way.

And the castle comes under attack. There are some injuried or over the hill knights around. Of course the senior knight left behind does not have a good grasp of tactics. He suggests that the pheasants come out of the castle and meet the enemy in the honorable field of battle. He allows archers to use the bows because they are out of pitchforks and he does not want to give that many swords or weapons into the hands of the goat herders.

He uses the yeoman and being nearly blind, another old age disease, can not see that they are armed with bows. At that range the spears look like lances. As a young squire he helped build a trebucket (and because I bought one) he demands that it is brought along. Of course the one he worked on has fallen apart decades ago, poor construction probably.

There would be no Grail knights left behind as they are out guarding other spots or riding to glory with the king. No questing knights are doing what they do best looking for the lady of the lake. No Errant knights also as they are being reckless somewhere. There is a unit of knights of the Realm because the army book says that there has to be one unit of them included in every army. And of course there are no Pegasus knights.

Now that sounds like a story and yours does also. There would always be knights who are out more for themselves than for the kingdom. See you could add a few knight units to your pheasant army. Some people would rather reign in hell than be in choir in heaven.

Now you have a way to add a hard hitting unit or two to your pheasant rabble. I was looking at my rabble list and it would be very expensive cost wise to have 4 groups of archers and 4 units of pheasants.