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mR_RoTTenTReaTs
23-02-2009, 04:16
So, I've been playing Empire for a couple years now (on and off). With the release of the latest army book, I waited to make a War Altar. Well, I have finally made one and I was wondering if there was a general consensus on how the unit should be used. Not so much how to equip the Arch Lector, but more of general tactica for it. Such as:
1. Leave at the center of army for Leadership; with the option of being a hammer flank unit?

2. Charge right into the biggest/baddest enemy unit and Challenge the opposing general with VanH's Speculum? (this doesnt sound good to me, but hey, maybe it would work)

3. Or a flanking unit, taking on the job of Knights, hard hitting from the flank.

Thoughts?

The Red Scourge
23-02-2009, 04:37
2. Charge right into the biggest/baddest enemy unit and Challenge the opposing general with VanH's Speculum? (this doesnt sound good to me, but hey, maybe it would work)

This actually works quite well. The Arch Lector is one one of the poorest fighters in the game, and he has big troubles hurting himself (VHS). He is unbreakable, so he can hold off large hammers on his own (in fact he works perfectly as an anvil).

I see him work best as an assassin style anvil - and the Ld bubble is nice too :)

maze ironheart
23-02-2009, 15:00
I aggree as if you challange the enemy can't touch you but the one you challange can and he'll have your stats and you'll have his so who would win theirs only one way to find out FIGHT.

Tizz
23-02-2009, 18:32
Third agree. Past two games I've run mine straight at chosen easily killing valkia/chaos lord/sorcerers, champions while the golden griffon used the number 6 light spell to finish off the unit

superduperkoopatrooper
23-02-2009, 21:02
The speculum on the altar is more of a defensive item to stop people auto destroying his chariot with Str 7 characters. Anyone who knows about Empire will not let him charge their greater daemon or whatever so he'll rarely ever get to actually use it.

One quick tip is to keep him near your other characters. His prayers aren't very useful when he's not in combat unless you can cast things like 4+ ward on a friendly exposed character, reroll hits and wounds on a hochland champion or friendly wizard with a magic missile etc. Rerolls on a hochland especially is something your opponent will not want to let through.

beaumontbrawler
24-02-2009, 21:25
I generally run my walter in the middle of my blocks of swordsmen and then launch him out against the enemy general as soon as I get the chance.

coalescence
24-02-2009, 21:54
walter

I really LOL'ed

PurchasedPig
25-02-2009, 11:32
I always used it as a mixture of (1) and (2). I have to say though that I always gave my Van Horstmanns Speculum to a Wizard for the hilarity of it smiting Greater Daemons in combat (he's killed a Lord Of Change, Bloodthirster and 2 Vampire Lords to date...) For the Arch-Lector though I always found Mace Of Helsturm and Dawn Armour a brilliant Combo. Re-rollable 1+ Armour Save followed by a 4+ Ward from War Altar and 3 Wounds which he can pray back! Plus when he gets in combat he challenges and smites - even against champions it lets you win combats through mass-overkill bonus (up to 6 wounds).

- PurchasedPig -

Baron Von Rotten
04-03-2009, 00:54
Everybody and their brother knows the VHS trick. Any time an Empire player offers up a challenge people become suspect.......

Not to **** in your Cheerios, But any experienced player would just refuse the challenge with their unit champion, and cut you down with their Lord and any surviving minions.

End of Story.

You guys need to come up with something a bit more tricky. There are other combos out there that everybody has not seen yet.

Gaius Marius
04-03-2009, 15:34
Well BVR the thing is that if you refuse my challenge, I pick which character gets moved to the back, not you. So you can take the challenge with a champion, but you can't 'refuse' it with a champion. So in fact any experienced player would not do that, widdle in the cheerios notwithstanding.

Von Wibble
04-03-2009, 18:47
That said, the war alter struggles to kill things unless it is charging. The enemy, knowing this, should attack with units that contain no characters. 25 goblins with shields for example, will hold that alter up all game for about 1/3 of the price. They might even get lucky and cause a wound every now and then.

Out of interest, has anyone used VHS as a bluff? Challenged with a cheap wizard not holding the speculum, had the enemy hard character refuse and hence saved their unit from attacks? I think for sheer cheek this would be great if pulled off!

To the OP, option 3 is not so good as a war alter is not hard hitting enough to be a hammer on its own. However, used on the flank with supporting knight this is a different story. Option 1 is my usual strategy, though option 2 has its advantages too.

Gaius Marius
04-03-2009, 18:54
Drive it right up the middle, it's a wheeled tarpit with benefits, don't expect it to slaughter anything. On the flank you don't get the leadership bubble, and many of the prayers / light spells are more effective near a crowd. - Cheers

Makarion
04-03-2009, 18:56
I tend to use a war altar as well, but mostly to add armour- and ward save to my general (and for the extra spell, which I can choose anew each turn and autocasts - golden). I'm considering trying out a captain on pegasus with the VHS, just so I can actually catch the truly problematic characters - not sure whether just a horse will do.

Baron Von Rotten
05-03-2009, 00:46
GM,

Even if you choose to send my general to the back rank, and you hit with both of your attacks, and wound with both, and I fail my armor, and my unit champion and single troop both miss, You will still be down combat Res 3, at best. And that is alot of "ifs". A leadership test on a 6 is easy to fail.

You can bet that I will not let "unbending Righteousness" go through........... (unbreakable)

You are right, under certain circumstances, VHS is a Killer. Mainly against big Uglies (Ogres and Minotaurs, etc.) where there is no back rank. However, it is much less useful against big blocks of troops.

innerwolf
05-03-2009, 14:52
GM,

Even if you choose to send my general to the back rank, and you hit with both of your attacks, and wound with both, and I fail my armor, and my unit champion and single troop both miss, You will still be down combat Res 3, at best. And that is alot of "ifs". A leadership test on a 6 is easy to fail.

You can bet that I will not let "unbending Righteousness" go through........... (unbreakable)

You are right, under certain circumstances, VHS is a Killer. Mainly against big Uglies (Ogres and Minotaurs, etc.) where there is no back rank. However, it is much less useful against big blocks of troops.

You haven't played against War Altar a lot, right? War Altar gives Unbreakeable to the Archlector while he is mounted on it. So no test until the chariot is destroyed.

Gaius Marius
05-03-2009, 17:50
Thanks Innerwolf. The War Altar gets into combat and pins a unit, which can then hopefully be flank or rear charged later. The VHS allows the Archlector, who stinks in close combat, to live long enough to continue being a tarpit, not to be a killy death machine.

Baron Von Rotten
05-03-2009, 21:51
You guys are right, the Arch Lector is Unbreakable. Nice of you to point out my mistake. I haven't played Empire in a while. So I am a little rusty on his rules.
However, you failed to address the main point that I was trying to make. Which is: like all chariots, the AL on a WA struggles against rank and file units.

But, according to you guys, it seems that the Arch-lector on a War Altar with Von Horstmans Speculum is unbeatable.

I don't thinks so........ But I may be wrong.

Like any chariot, if he doesn't do enough impact hits, he will lose combat to any rank and file unit of troops. Even with a GW, his measley two attacks are not enough to see him through. I have killed Arch-Lectors with simple rank and file. I have also lost my general in this way, (I roll alot of 1's).

Anybody that negates armor, or has KB, will stop him in his tracks, sooner, rather than later. The armor of Meteroic Iron and his 4+ WS will only hold up for so long, especially against Elite infantry. Just last week, I killed the AL on a WA with a Grave Guard in the first round. It was one of the rare times KB worked for me................

Spirit
06-03-2009, 00:05
You guys are right, the Arch Lector is Unbreakable. Nice of you to point out my mistake. I haven't played Empire in a while. So I am a little rusty on his rules.
However, you failed to address the main point that I was trying to make. Which is: like all chariots, the AL on a WA struggles against rank and file units.

But, according to you guys, it seems that the Arch-lector on a War Altar with Von Horstmans Speculum is unbeatable.

I don't thinks so........ But I may be wrong.

Like any chariot, if he doesn't do enough impact hits, he will lose combat to any rank and file unit of troops. Even with a GW, his measley two attacks are not enough to see him through. I have killed Arch-Lectors with simple rank and file. I have also lost my general in this way, (I roll alot of 1's).

Anybody that negates armor, or has KB, will stop him in his tracks, sooner, rather than later. The armor of Meteroic Iron and his 4+ WS will only hold up for so long, especially against Elite infantry. Just last week, I killed the AL on a WA with a Grave Guard in the first round. It was one of the rare times KB worked for me................


Your missing the point, anything the war alter touches is STUCK for a number of turns. This gives you plenty of time to organise a flank charge, which will win the combat and kill off a unit. If someone lets you get rank and file troops that can kill it, into combat with it, then ofcourse it'l die. But it wont be going anywhere near grave guard if i use it. How your enemy let you get M4 grave guard into combat i'll never know.

The walter is pretty unbeatable, and it is because of this that it wins combats, because its unbeatable for long enough for you to get support in there, and there isnt often a lot you can do about it.

Plus, the bound spells drain one hell of a lot of power dice, meaning your wizards are free to cause mayhem.

Baron Von Rotten
06-03-2009, 02:36
My argument was directed at the Original poster's #2 idea= the discussion was about how effective the WAlter was when used in conjunction with VHS.

All I was saying, was there are certain circumstances where it is just not that good. Especially when everybody knows it is coming, and can take measures against it.

Apparently, you guys know everything already, So I won't intrude on your Empire Love-Fest. I guess that is what I get for trying to show Empire players a different point of view. Damn Sigmarites.

Good Luck Fellas. I hope to see you across the table some day.

BVR

jax40kplyr1
06-03-2009, 16:45
The War-Altar combo isn't unbeatable - just too many players make the mistake of running expensive, high profile characters into it. If you charge it with say, 20 swordsmen or something, he's only going to have 2 attacks from the priest and 2 attacks from the horse - averages 1, maybe 2 wounds a turn. Your CR is going to almost guarantee you staying in there the whole game. Even if he does the cleansing flare spell and knocks a couple guys off a turn, it isn't like your going to run away while locked in combat. I'd gladly throw away a 100 point unit of infantry to tie up that unit.
Plus always keep in mind - cannonballs, Vaul's unmaking, Speculum doesn't work on mount's characteristics, boltthrowers, etc. etc. Granted it is a very annoying unit to have running around, but it is still vulnerable.

The Red Scourge
06-03-2009, 19:07
All I was saying, was there are certain circumstances where it is just not that good. Especially when everybody knows it is coming, and can take measures against it.

Well Baron, you might want to give one or two of those examples, instead of just acting insulted.

Personally I like to throw dragon ogres with great weapons at the chariot, but this is a luxury my wood elves doesn't have. Of course the walter isn't fool-proof, he can tar pit low strength units, and he can neutralize characters, but he suffers against the heavy elite.

pkain762
07-03-2009, 15:35
going back to what one guy said, i use VHS just as a bluff..... half the time i don't bring it but i always challenge with my wizard if they're in combat.... why?

because hopefully that will move a character or champion to the back and if they do accept the challenge maybe the wizard will live.... maybe.... he's going to die anyways so that's why i'll bluff with it


as far as the war alter, i dont use VHS on him, instead i give him the 60 point weapon that gives him the strength 10 attack causing d6 wounds. then you also have the prayer "ritious fury?" whatever it's called.... d6 no armour saves.... plus some bound spells from the lore of light.... and the impact hits.... more times than not, i'll bet the war alter comes out on top or a draw....

alone he's not going to last long against elite units, but he will hold them up for a turn or two while you can get a nice flank or rear charge on the unit.

kain

Neckutter
07-03-2009, 21:31
war altar tactica: bring it with the grand theogenist. dont get shot with cannons. :P

haha, but seriously i didnt know there was a huge amount of tactics with the WAltar.
:)