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Gharof von Carstein
23-02-2009, 11:41
now i think i know the answer to this one but just to be sure im not going completly nuts id like to know what the general consensus is.

There is this guy i was talking to last time who was bragging he beat a GW manager by joining his blood knights with a dread knight vamp with blooddrinker. the knights got killed (all of them) yet the char remained. now he was bragging that in his combat phase he used blooddrinker to revive the entire unit of blood knights and so beat the pants off the unit he was facing.

when i told him it doesnt work like that due to the fact unit = destroyed there is no more raising it ever. he said that due to the fact the character became part of the unit the unit still counted as being there and the blood knights could be reraised. the manager supposedly told him this or agreed with him.

to me as a VC general with some experience under his belt this sounds like crap. yet if a GW manager is brought into play (even if the guy is lying through his teeth) i start to doubt. so is this legal and im crazy or am i still sane and is this just a proven fact that some people should not own GW stores?

Atrahasis
23-02-2009, 11:42
It is indeed crap.

Necromancy Black
23-02-2009, 11:47
Don't the rules state the character becomes a seperate unit if the unit he is with is destroyed? In which case he is a different unit to the one before and can't raise them back.

Da_Viking
23-02-2009, 14:39
It does raise an interesting question though.

At what point is the unit gone? Is the character still part of the unit until the end of the close copmbat phase? Or when the unit is removed at that moment is the unit destroyed and the character an independant model?

Any opinions on this? I will try and look it up myself as well.

Gazak Blacktoof
23-02-2009, 14:57
You can't resurrect a tomb king's chariot if it dies and the king survives and they're bought as a single "model". I don't know if there's anything similar for vamps in an FAQ.

As to the original question I'd say no, as they aren't the same unit.

At what point is a character no longer "in a unit", I'd say you can just eyeball it. If everybody else is dead he's not in the unit, there is no unit, they're all dead and full VPs are awarded. Frankly claiming he is still part of a destroyed unit would make you look a bit silly.

Asmodiseus
23-02-2009, 15:00
We had this happen the other day.

If the unit gets wiped out in CC then the character is no longer part of that unit. If two are more characters are in the same unit and all the R&F models are gone the characters remain a single unit until their next movement phase. If they are fleeing they are allowed to take a single rallying test.

Da_Viking
23-02-2009, 15:03
Oh I agree that if the unit is destroyed I would say yup its gone. But techinically can I bend the rules so that I can bring back a dead unit.

Because the close cambat phase is technically fought at the same time. So when exactly does the unit stop existing and when does the character become independant.

If I followed the spirit of the game and the RAW this can be different.

This can be a loop hole until a FAQ closes it.

Unless the RAW have clarified this already. Which I hope to explore tonight.

Gazak Blacktoof
23-02-2009, 15:14
Use the "initiative step" to determine when the unit dies--> This is when models (and therfore units) are considered destroyed.

Remember though that two sides do not fight simultaneously in warhammer so in order for the unit to be destroyed and some models added to it this would all have to be done by the vampire counts player during the same initiative step. The unit is never truly destroyed though as those actions are simultaneous.

Hopefully that makes sense to you.

Reinnon
23-02-2009, 15:45
I thought that was just a 40K concept?

Don't have the book next to me, but i'm fairly sure there is always a set order to which models strike:

1) Amber Pendent: as it makes everyone strikes last
2) ASF
3) Charges
4) People who share the same I as someone in combat but who won the previous combat
5) The side which lost the combat
6) Non charging Great Weapons/other weapons with strike last
7) Exceptions

Thqats just off the top of my head, but i don't think a situation could exist in which the vampire could resurrect the unit he is currently with thats been destroyed.

many apologises if i'm talking crap, as i said i don't have a book nearby.

theunwantedbeing
23-02-2009, 15:59
Nothing happens simultaneously in fantasy. That's a 40k thing.

The unit being destroyed therefore happens before the character gets a chance to target them with something to bring them back.
As they are destroyed they are not there to be targetted.

Sucks if your in the situation of wanting to, but being unable to...but that's just how warhammer works.

xragg
23-02-2009, 17:09
to me as a VC general with some experience under his belt this sounds like crap. yet if a GW manager is brought into play (even if the guy is lying through his teeth) i start to doubt. so is this legal and im crazy or am i still sane and is this just a proven fact that some people should not own GW stores?

I would like to think a person that runs a store does so because he/she is good at "business" and not due to knowledge of the rules of a game they sell.

Kam
23-02-2009, 17:14
now i think i know the answer to this one but just to be sure im not going completly nuts id like to know what the general consensus is.

There is this guy i was talking to last time who was bragging he beat a GW manager by joining his blood knights with a dread knight vamp with blooddrinker. the knights got killed (all of them) yet the char remained. now he was bragging that in his combat phase he used blooddrinker to revive the entire unit of blood knights and so beat the pants off the unit he was facing.

when i told him it doesnt work like that due to the fact unit = destroyed there is no more raising it ever. he said that due to the fact the character became part of the unit the unit still counted as being there and the blood knights could be reraised. the manager supposedly told him this or agreed with him.

to me as a VC general with some experience under his belt this sounds like crap. yet if a GW manager is brought into play (even if the guy is lying through his teeth) i start to doubt. so is this legal and im crazy or am i still sane and is this just a proven fact that some people should not own GW stores?




The UNIT is the troop choice you spent points on. Characters in units are bonuses to the unit.

Like.... If a unit is brought down to one trooper, the one guy could be a Champion, Standard Bearer, or Musician. But if the unit is brought down to a single character.....characters are neither champions, standard bearers, or Musicians. A character is a character. He would not get +1 to combat res for having a standard because there is no unit to hold the standard.

Its much like this... If a unit with a character is affected by a remains in play spell, and the UNIT is killed and the character is still alive, then the spell is removed along with the character. If the character leaves the unit with a spell acting upon them then he is freed from the spell. but if he remains inside the unit then he will be affected as normal.

quite simple really. but there is no legal way he could have risen that unit back from a character.

vamp
23-02-2009, 17:33
Personally I agree with your manager. The leader of a unit is part of the unit. I disagree that the unit is dead when one person still remains of it. This is a great advantage of that weapon and by saying he cannot do this it'd be like telling a lizardmen player he cannot use his engine of the gods or something. It's in his codex and your taking/ and or limiting a power he has been given rightwise by the rules. The character is part of the unit and so long as he remains he can bring back the rest of his unit. In order for you to be right a character would have to be in a unit but not be called part of the unit which by the rule is untrue since being in a unit effects the leader of it. Psychology wise.. panic wise, stubborn wise. The unit isn't dead until every last person in the unit is dead. I would also assume that a given spell cast on a unit say to slow it down like mistress of the marsh would still effect the leader of a unit even if say all his men were killed in a stand and shoot acttion. I don't think magically the spell would lift off the unit because everyone but the leader in the unit died. It would still be in effect wouldn't it? ( I'm interested in answers that have a clear source to back it up here)

This scenario you describe has happened many times at my local battle bunker. The main guy doing it works for GW and is a manager in the store. If you are indeed right and the unit is destroyed event though the general lives on where do you get this from the rules? I have seen people make this claim. But so far I haven't seen page and paragraph. I'm not trolling here so please refrain vamp haters. This concerns my army of choice and takes away a tactic I plan to use potentially for my army. I would like to get to the bottom of this rightwise by the rules.

Atrahasis
23-02-2009, 17:40
The unit is dead. Move on.

xragg
23-02-2009, 17:59
Personally I agree with your manager. The leader of a unit is part of the unit. I disagree that the unit is dead when one person still remains of it. This is a great advantage of that weapon and by saying he cannot do this it'd be like telling a lizardmen player he cannot use his engine of the gods or something. It's in his codex and your taking/ and or limiting a power he has been given rightwise by the rules. The character is part of the unit and so long as he remains he can bring back the rest of his unit. In order for you to be right a character would have to be in a unit but not be called part of the unit which by the rule is untrue since being in a unit effects the leader of it. Psychology wise.. panic wise, stubborn wise. The unit isn't dead until every last person in the unit is dead. I would also assume that a given spell cast on a unit say to slow it down like mistress of the marsh would still effect the leader of a unit even if say all his men were killed in a stand and shoot acttion. I don't think magically the spell would lift off the unit because everyone but the leader in the unit died. It would still be in effect wouldn't it? ( I'm interested in answers that have a clear source to back it up here)

This scenario you describe has happened many times at my local battle bunker. The main guy doing it works for GW and is a manager in the store. If you are indeed right and the unit is destroyed event though the general lives on where do you get this from the rules? I have seen people make this claim. But so far I haven't seen page and paragraph.

As soon as all my EG are dead, the noble with them can no longer use their stubborn leadership, cause THEY NO LONGER EXIST. He cant keep using the stubborn leadership of models no longer around, just cause at one point he was considered part of the unit.

How long do you think you can ride around with blooddrinker and no unit before it wears off? What if you lost the unit except the blooddrinker from shooting, are you going to claim that he can later raise them back up also? Do you never give your opponent full victory points for the unit, since the the character never died or left the unit?

Kalandros
23-02-2009, 19:35
The Character is no longer in the unit if the unit has been wiped out, he is now on his own and CANNOT raise back a wiped out unit, stop trying to find a loophole - there aren't any in this case.

CaliforniaGamer
23-02-2009, 20:16
I thought that was just a 40K concept?

Don't have the book next to me, but i'm fairly sure there is always a set order to which models strike:

1) Amber Pendent: as it makes everyone strikes last
2) ASF
3) Charges
4) People who share the same I as someone in combat but who won the previous combat
5) The side which lost the combat
6) Non charging Great Weapons/other weapons with strike last
7) Exceptions

Thqats just off the top of my head, but i don't think a situation could exist in which the vampire could resurrect the unit he is currently with thats been destroyed.

many apologises if i'm talking crap, as i said i don't have a book nearby.

Forgot impact hits as they go before ASF in CC.

Neckutter
23-02-2009, 21:11
Forgot impact hits as they go before ASF in CC.



he was referring to attacking or in his words "striking". impact hits arent what he was talking about.

on topic: sounds like a case of a braggart who doesnt know how to play the game. "hey, look! i PWNED you because i cheated!! HAHAHAHA!"

vamp
24-02-2009, 00:05
Your being very rude. Do not tell me what to do. I can do what I like. Right now what I'd like to do is find out where the rule is that says a unit is dead even though the leader of that unit is still in play. So far I have seen no such rule. I am interested in clear letter of the ruling here. Of which so far nobody has stated. I don't care for what you think is the answer. I care about finding the correct rule that is iron clad in the book or publication since.

Sifal
24-02-2009, 00:20
Your being very rude. Do not tell me what to do. I can do what I like. Right now what I'd like to do is find out where the rule is that says a unit is dead even though the leader of that unit is still in play. So far I have seen no such rule. I am interested in clear letter of the ruling here. Of which so far nobody has stated. I don't care for what you think is the answer. I care about finding the correct rule that is iron clad in the book or publication since.

Why don't you find the rule that says characters joining units become their 'leader' and are still part of the unit when all other models in the unit are dead. I can't give a page reference right now but the rules state that if a unit dies then the character becomes an independant model again. This is why characters can charge out of units by themselves etc....

I'm not wishing to be unkind vamp but by your own admission you are quite new to WHFB and I don't understand why you continue to blindly polarise yourself on one side of any given argument instead of reading the rules, gaining experience etc.... you are choosing regularly to argue with people who have decades of experience with WHFB rules. I'm not saying people new to the hobby shouldn't make themselves heard but in many ways it really seems like you're trying to provoke controversy and arguments in various threads.

theunwantedbeing
24-02-2009, 00:27
There doesnt actually seem to be a rule stating the character's stop being part of a unit they joined if the unit is destroyed around them.

Although it strikes me as pretty damned obvious that when a unit is killed, the character who joined them stops being part of the unit. As the unit isnt there to be part of anymore.

As obvious as the "no moving up into the air" rule that doesnt actually exist but we all blindly follow.

Atrahasis
24-02-2009, 00:28
When a unit is destroyed, it no longer exists and characters are no longer a part of it.

This is the reason lone characters can rally when the unit they were part of is destroyed.

xragg
24-02-2009, 01:18
Right now what I'd like to do is find out where the rule is that says a unit is dead even though the leader of that unit is still in play. So far I have seen no such rule. I am interested in clear letter of the ruling here. Of which so far nobody has stated. I don't care for what you think is the answer. I care about finding the correct rule that is iron clad in the book or publication since.

If characters are still considered part of a non-existent unit, then why would the BRB:FAQ include a question of what to do with characters when the unit they are in is destroyed? By your reasoning, there should be no problem with 2 characters sticking together after the unit has been wiped out (since they are still part of the unit).

vamp
24-02-2009, 02:51
It makes no sense that suddenlly the sword would fail to revive fallen comrades when just a second ago they died.


So far still waiting on that rule. If a character is not part of the unit then why is he ran down and destroyed along with all his comrades? Seems to me the character joins the unit this means he is part of it.

Asmodiseus
24-02-2009, 03:04
Yeah and while were at it I want to see the rule that states I am not allowed to pick up my opponents models and remove them from the table.

vamp the burden of proof is on you and not on the rest of the community. It is in the rules that a character on his own is considered a unit unto himself. Once the last model in a unit he is with dies, he is on his own and as such a unit unto his self.

Now instead of having others do the work for you, how about you do some research and give us a quotation from the book that suggests a character who has had his unit wiped out still counts as part of that unit for whatever length of time.

stripsteak
24-02-2009, 15:03
the only thing i could find in the rulebook that might support the raising of the dead unit is
pg72.
"he becomes part of that unit until he decides to leave it."
then pg74.
"Once close combat has begun, a character will not be able to leave a unit he has joined until the fighting is over and any compulsory movement, such as fleeing and pursuit, has been resolved."

so by RAW you could argue he is still part of the unit until that combat is over. I think it's kinda silly, but i can see where the arguments can come from.

Atrahasis
24-02-2009, 15:15
Leaving the unit is only one way of the character no longer being part of the unit. If the unit no longer exists he is also no longer part of the unit.

Da_Viking
24-02-2009, 17:13
As stripsteak has indicated and I looked up the information and he has written the key element to this discussion / loophole.

The unit it still a unit until the break tests and pursits are completed. (Read the BRB on characters leaving a unit lrb pg 74)

So the character has not left the unit until that is complete. If 2 characters are in the unit and they run then thay are a unit and not 2 independant models. (FAQ part 2)

So in a scenario where Vamp unit has 3 skeletons plus Vampire with Blooddrinker gets charged by 4 HighElf Spearmen with ASF. The 4 Spearmen attack and remove all of the Skeletons. The Vampire attacks back and kills 3 spearmen. 3 Skeletons should come back. Then they get to attack and the results are determined.

That does follow the initiative order. And it has been determined that undead models that return get their attacks (VC FAQ).

From a fluff and none rules basis the combat is swirling and while you are killing something over there I am killing something over here. We do not roll dice simultaneously.

Add to this the Carstien Ring which brings a model back from 0 with 1 wound after the close combat is over.

As for the dicussion itself yes it seems dumb that they can be brought back. But these loopholes are how games are won.

What PROOF do you have that they are not allowed to come back. Cite rules (page if possible) and source.

As for removing your opponents models that is an unwritten rule in the code of conduct (see pages 4 and 5 :D)

And please do not take this too seriously. Threats and arguments are just unproductive. This is a discussion.

loveless
24-02-2009, 18:47
It makes no sense that suddenlly the sword would fail to revive fallen comrades when just a second ago they died.


Ooh, logic in Fantasy, fun :p

Kidding, but here's another thought.

Blooddrinker functions by restoring a wound to the wielder or the unit he is with just as if they had Invocation of Nehek cast upon them, correct?

Now, I think with Invocation, if you target a unit with a character in it, you have to say if you're targetting the unit or the character leading it.

So, what if the Vampire didn't have Blooddrinker, but in the following magic phase another Vampire/Necromancer attempted to cast Invocation on the destroyed unit? Effectively, that target is gone. I don't see how you could cast Invocation on it.

So, if Blooddrinker functions in the same way, that should be a decent sign of how it's supposed to work when the unit gets destroyed.

Da_Viking
24-02-2009, 19:15
Loveless: I agree that you could not cast invocation in the following magic phase. No debate. You are correct.

But we are talking about Blooddrinker in the CURRENT close combat phase. And if you want to add to it we could also be talking about Tomb Blade which only raises skeltons (no good to the character).

Once the close combat phase ends if there are no members (non character) in the unit the unit is truely gone, destroyed, or otherwise non existant.

But what I am saying is that until the close combat phase ends that it is possible to bring back a member of a unit with tomb blade or Blooddrinker. If things are done in the who strikes first and initiative order.

loveless
24-02-2009, 19:26
Well...then the question is "when is a unit destroyed?"

Which is, frankly, a silly question. Once all of the other models are gone, there's no longer a choice of targets. The Blooddrinker "Invocation" has to go on the character since there's no where else to put it.

I think the Tomb Blade works differently than Invocation, doesn't it? I can't remember what the wording on the weapon says.

EldarBishop
24-02-2009, 20:05
The Tomb Blade only raises skeletons, and as such only works while the user is in a unit of skeletons...


I had a thought about something semi-related:

Vampire with a Blooddrinker/Tomb Blade is in a unit of skeletons. The Vampire also has Lord of the Dead. Can the BD/TB be used to bring back models which were raised using IoN (above the starting unit size)?

edit: NOT can the BD/TB raise above the limit... Can the BD/TB be used to bring back skeletons, which were created via IoN w/Lord of the Dead, above the starting unit size.

Atrahasis
25-02-2009, 08:59
Vampire with a Blooddrinker/Tomb Blade is in a unit of skeletons. The Vampire also has Lord of the Dead. Can the BD/TB be used to bring back models which were raised using IoN (above the starting unit size)?

edit: NOT can the BD/TB raise above the limit... Can the BD/TB be used to bring back skeletons, which were created via IoN w/Lord of the Dead, above the starting unit size.

The Tomb Blade says to use the rules for Invocation of Nehek. Those rules say that "some units can be raised beyond their starting size". If the vampire has Lord of the Dead, then skeletons are one such unit.

I'd go so far as to say that they can raise above starting size, regardless of whether IoN has previously raised beyond that level. I have a feeling a lot of people will disagree.

EldarBishop
25-02-2009, 10:57
The Tomb Blade says to use the rules for Invocation of Nehek. Those rules say that "some units can be raised beyond their starting size". If the vampire has Lord of the Dead, then skeletons are one such unit.

I'd go so far as to say that they can raise above starting size, regardless of whether IoN has previously raised beyond that level. I have a feeling a lot of people will disagree.

Yes, I've seen quite a few arguments regarding IoN and LotDead interaction...

Thanks for your input, Atrahasis!

Gharof von Carstein
25-02-2009, 11:24
actually GW nerfed us in the butt right there...

from the vampire counts FAQ:

Q. If a vampire Counts character is armed with Blood drinker or the tomb blade is within 6" of a corpse cart with an unholy lodestone, do the effects of the two combine to restore extra wounds/models? For example, would a vampire lord with blooddrinker who is within 6" of a corpse cart with unholy lodestone be able to bring back 2 grave guard models with every unsaved wound caused?

A. No, the unholy lodestone works only when the spell invocation of nehek is cast (or summon undead horde)

Q. If a vampire with the summon powers is armed with blooddrinker or tomb blade and is attached to the appropriate unit, do the effects of the two combine to allow the vampire to increase it beyond its starting size?

A. No, see answer above

so that doesnt work. by the same reasoning casting invocation of nehek and blooddrinker are two completly different sources of raising. so the description of blooddrinker is totally conflicted by whats stated in the VC FAQ... how GW of GW...

theunwantedbeing
25-02-2009, 14:30
I see nothing wrong with not allowing a vampire to resurrect 16 models a turn on his own, and there's nothing wrong with him having to stick with only being able to raise those models upto the starting value of the unit.

Otherwise you could have the super bunker with regen, a vamp lord who can raise back 16 models a turn, and a vamp hero who can raise back 12 models a turn.
So your regenerating skeleton unit increases in number by upto 28 per combat round even beyond its starting number.

Vamp lord, blood drinker, red fury
Vamp hero, BsB, drakenhof banner
Vamp hero, tomb blade, red fury

Incase you were wondering how they got regen with 2 character's.

Glad GW is putting a stop to some of the really stupid easter eggs they keep leaving lying around.

Darkmaw
25-02-2009, 14:36
Ok here's the logic

BRB page 36 Under Removing Casualties:

"Close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting casualties"

BRB page 31 Under Removing Casualties (shooting):

"For our purposes, the result is the same, so we treat all casualties as if they were killed and REMOVE them.

Therefore when the last troop is killed, the troop unit is "removed". If they are "removed" theoretically they are not on the table any more in which case there is no "unit" for the character to join. The character himself becomes a unit as per the normal rules. (Pg 6 Units).

In any case if someone is debating what is "remove"

For reference: Pg 5 BRB: Under Characteristic of 0

"If at any time a model's strength, toughness or wounds are reduced to 0 or less by magic or a special rule, it is slain and removed from play."

stripsteak
25-02-2009, 14:49
Therefore when the last troop is killed, the troop unit is "removed". If they are "removed" theoretically they are not on the table any more in which case there is no "unit" for the character to join. The character himself becomes a unit as per the normal rules. (Pg 6 Units).

but the counter RAW to that is that a character is still counted as part of a unit until all combat is over and following compulsory moves have been completed(pg74). so while all the rank and file troops in the unit are removed the unit itself is still in existence until the combat is finished.

Darkmaw
25-02-2009, 15:11
but the counter RAW to that is that a character is still counted as part of a unit until all combat is over and following compulsory moves have been completed(pg74). so while all the rank and file troops in the unit are removed the unit itself is still in existence until the combat is finished.

So a character (NOT immune to psychology) joins a unit of immune to psychology troops and when they are all slain in the same round leaving him, he would still be immune to psy since he is "with the unit"

Hmmm i sense some loopholes here...

stripsteak
25-02-2009, 15:18
thats why i keep saying that what i'm pointing out is RAW, as i think we can at least all agree that RAW is full of loopholes

EldarBishop
25-02-2009, 17:41
I'll illustrate my question, with an example (it's just easier that way).

Vampire w/Tomb Blade and Lord of the Dead, in a unit of 14 Skeletons (it started this way).

The Vampire casts IoN and raises 5 skeletons (14+5 = 19).

Then the unit sees combat and 3 skeletons die (14+5-3 = 16).

The Vampire then attacks and wounds with his Tomb Blade.

Question: Can he bring back the 3 skeletons that died, using the Tomb Blades ability?
(They were skeletons that were in play.. the Tomb Blade isn't making *new* skeletons)

theunwantedbeing
25-02-2009, 19:03
Question: Can he bring back the 3 skeletons that died, using the Tomb Blades ability?
(They were skeletons that were in play.. the Tomb Blade isn't making *new* skeletons)

No, the size of the unit currently is above the starting size so it cannot be increased beyond it. By the tomb blade or the blood drinker.

stripsteak
25-02-2009, 19:24
No, the size of the unit currently is above the starting size so it cannot be increased beyond it. By the tomb blade or the blood drinker.

yup, this was clarified in their only the casting of the spell with the related power can raise the number above the starting number.