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Conotor
23-02-2009, 11:52
In 6th ed, javelin and blowpipe skinks cost the same. Now the javelin skinks are more expensive... is there some tricky combo that I am missing?

Roxors45
23-02-2009, 12:03
In 6th ed, javelin and blowpipe skinks cost the same. Now the javelin skinks are more expensive... is there some tricky combo that I am missing?

Not really. Javelin SKIRMISHERS are more expensive, but rank and file ones are the cheapest at 5 pts. Then blowpipe skirmishers at 7 and then Jav and shields at 8. The extra 1 pt is for the added protection of a shield.

Spirit
23-02-2009, 12:42
Its really not much difference, javelins suffer less penalties and gain a (small) save, even if you only save one or 2 in a game they havemade their points for the armour.

but in my opinion, skink shooting is all about rolling 6's, so x2 shots wins out.

Only reason i would take javelin skirmishers is because you only get half and half in a box of skinks, and i dont like ranked up skinks much.

McMullet
23-02-2009, 12:51
The increase in Ld makes skinks a bit better in CC. The shields and handweapons give them a 5+ save, so perhaps that's why the highly manoeuvrable skirmishers are a bit priceier when they have this setup.

Skirmishers have much more chance or rear/flank charges, and at Ld6 cold blooded they have a good chance to hang around and disrupt movement even if they don't win.

Spirit
23-02-2009, 15:53
The increase in Ld makes skinks a bit better in CC. The shields and handweapons give them a 5+ save, so perhaps that's why the highly manoeuvrable skirmishers are a bit priceier when they have this setup.

Skirmishers have much more chance or rear/flank charges, and at Ld6 cold blooded they have a good chance to hang around and disrupt movement even if they don't win.

The problem is that they do not cancel ranks, so all your enemy has to do is kill 1 or 2 more than you are your entire unit has a useless combat phase (assuming they flank something thats already engaged, otherwise they are just gonna die anyway) and at Ws2 t2, this shouldn't be hard. I wouldn't consider them an option for flanking. Only for killing enemy flanking units, but i think blowpipes do this more effectivly.

coalescence
23-02-2009, 16:50
The problem is that they do not cancel ranks, so all your enemy has to do is kill 1 or 2 more than you are your entire unit has a useless combat phase (assuming they flank something thats already engaged, otherwise they are just gonna die anyway) and at Ws2 t2, this shouldn't be hard. I wouldn't consider them an option for flanking. Only for killing enemy flanking units, but i think blowpipes do this more effectivly.

Depends if theres something nearby to shoot, if there ain't it isn't a bad thing to throw them into the flank/rear. As long as they are not the only unit fighting the enemy unit.

Spirit
23-02-2009, 17:09
Depends if theres something nearby to shoot, if there ain't it isn't a bad thing to throw them into the flank/rear. As long as they are not the only unit fighting the enemy unit.

Again if you put them into the flank and the enemy your fighting kills one more skink than you, it was a waste putting them into combat, if they kill 2 more than you (again, not hard with WS2 T2) then you've lost combat res by putting them in.

Not shooting and not losing a combat beats not shooting and losing a combat.

coalescence
23-02-2009, 21:11
Well it ofcourse depends what you put them up against. Last time I did it I pushed one pack in the flank and another in the rear of an empire swordman unit with his general in it. The wounds + outnumber made it run, while the unit in front would not have made that happen.

Staurikosaurus
24-02-2009, 03:42
The javelin shield skinks are fantastic for taking out fast cavalry and large monsters with little to no armour (better than blowpipes IMHO). As well, a large unit of javelin skinks can easily charge a unit of fast cav or flyers and have a decent chance of coming out with the win (hit on 4+, wound on 4+ with 5+ save). As well, the armour save helps them when taking out warmachines.

Granted they were better at it last edition as I ran a Quetzl list (6+ scaly skin for skinks :D)

SteelTitan
24-02-2009, 09:12
The javelin shield skinks are fantastic for taking out fast cavalry and large monsters with little to no armour (better than blowpipes IMHO). As well, a large unit of javelin skinks can easily charge a unit of fast cav or flyers and have a decent chance of coming out with the win (hit on 4+, wound on 4+ with 5+ save). As well, the armour save helps them when taking out warmachines.


1) how are jav skinks better at taking out fast cav and large monsters? :confused: Blowpipes are clearly better imo! Like said before, it's all about multiple shot and poison...doesnt take a huge effort to keep them out charge arc of monsters and thus not really hard to keep them within 6" on the move --> needing 6s to hit which is perfect because it's all about poison anyway. Unit of 10 skirmish skinks, only 70 points, dish out 20 shots, average of 2 to 3 wounds a turn, probably 2 including armour save throw.
Benefit of my ranked skinks (10x2) against monsters is that they can shoot in two ranks, but that's about it.

2) large units of skinks charging fast cav? Sure that might work but why would you take large units of skinks? Any other unit charging them but fast cav will destroy them. Imo waste of points and too risky.

Ophidian
24-02-2009, 09:38
I find it's quite tricky to get to the point where you require 6's with blowpipes - they're pretty short ranged, so you need to be ludicrously close to negate the long range penalty, in which case you need to keep moving so as not to have your squishy squishy skinks slaughtered by the most mediocre of troops. And you've got to move to get there.

So let's say you're always on the move, -1. For the first couple of turns, long range, -1. There's your 6 straightaway. Pull out the multi-shots and you've gone to 7. Which is pointless - exactly the same expectation of hits, without the autowound. So the only time having the pipes get poison on the double shots is when you've got into short range (6"!!!) and are to the side or rear of your opponent.

Contrast with Javs, which may have a slightly shorter range, but suffer neither move-and-shoot nor range penalties.

Blowpipes are good on paper, but on the field I think it's very rare the jav isn't better (particularly as you've got a shield too).

SteelTitan
24-02-2009, 10:14
Mwuah depends on how you play them. Off course i agree with your reasoning but ive noticed that if played aggressively blowpipes tend to underperform compared to javs. But if you just take it slow and take an extra turn or so to outmanouver your target or hide until a better opportunity presents itself personally i dont find it too hard to make the best use of them. And yeah, sometimes it is impossible but thats the same with any other unit for me.
Overall (average of x battles played) my BP skinks have done a lot more damage than my jav ones. It is easier to keep the 6 for javs but the number of shots of the BP has had a much higher damage output than the javs.

Spirit
24-02-2009, 10:43
I find it's quite tricky to get to the point where you require 6's with blowpipes - they're pretty short ranged, so you need to be ludicrously close to negate the long range penalty, in which case you need to keep moving so as not to have your squishy squishy skinks slaughtered by the most mediocre of troops. And you've got to move to get there.

So let's say you're always on the move, -1. For the first couple of turns, long range, -1. There's your 6 straightaway. Pull out the multi-shots and you've gone to 7. Which is pointless - exactly the same expectation of hits, without the autowound. So the only time having the pipes get poison on the double shots is when you've got into short range (6"!!!) and are to the side or rear of your opponent.

Contrast with Javs, which may have a slightly shorter range, but suffer neither move-and-shoot nor range penalties.

Blowpipes are good on paper, but on the field I think it's very rare the jav isn't better (particularly as you've got a shield too).

I find getting to within 6" with a 12" movement really easy (and when you are being march blocked you only need 2" move to get to close range) and i very rarely hit on 7's Even if i do have to halve my shots to hit on 6's, javelins will only get 1 or 2 more wounds if you are lucky vs anything with a high toughness (which is what you should be going for)

Add large targets into the fray and your laughing.

Then your only problem is hitting skirmishers, but thats what salamanders/rozerdons/terradons are for

Staurikosaurus
24-02-2009, 12:10
1) how are jav skinks better at taking out fast cav and large monsters? Blowpipes are clearly better imo! Like said before, it's all about multiple shot and poison...doesnt take a huge effort to keep them out charge arc of monsters and thus not really hard to keep them within 6" on the move --> needing 6s to hit which is perfect because it's all about poison anyway. Unit of 10 skirmish skinks, only 70 points, dish out 20 shots, average of 2 to 3 wounds a turn, probably 2 including armour save throw.
Benefit of my ranked skinks (10x2) against monsters is that they can shoot in two ranks, but that's about it.

Javelin range is 8" and they count as thrown weapons. Therefore, with the skink move of 6" and the range of 8" with hits on 4+ (3+ versus large creatures) you're actually MORE likely to do wounds with javelins than with blowpipes. With javelins and against fast cav it's NOT all about the poison. 4s to hit and 4s to wound. Suddenly they're not dependent upon 6s. People see poisoned and become blinded to what the unit can actually do.
As well, versus large targets, yes 6s auto wound but as I've said previous, you're hitting on 3+ thus doing more wounds overall. Do the math.


2) large units of skinks charging fast cav? Sure that might work but why would you take large units of skinks? Any other unit charging them but fast cav will destroy them. Imo waste of points and too risky

Min unit size is 10. That's twice the size of a min unit of fast cav, usually fielded in 6s. Thus large unit. As well, fast cav will NOT destroy them. You hit on 4s and wound on 4s while they have a 5+ save. You are hit on 3s and wounded on 3s with a 5+ save. Mathammer and my personal experience says skinks win. On top of it all, you can move through terrain effectively, fast cav can't.

Spirit
24-02-2009, 12:47
Javelin range is 8" and they count as thrown weapons. Therefore, with the skink move of 6" and the range of 8" with hits on 4+ (3+ versus large creatures) you're actually MORE likely to do wounds with javelins than with blowpipes. With javelins and against fast cav it's NOT all about the poison. 4s to hit and 4s to wound. Suddenly they're not dependent upon 6s. People see poisoned and become blinded to what the unit can actually do.
As well, versus large targets, yes 6s auto wound but as I've said previous, you're hitting on 3+ thus doing more wounds overall. Do the math.




Javelin:
10 shots, 14" maximum range (including movement)
4+ to hit = 5 hits
4+ to wound = 2.5 wounds (3 if one of the original hits is poisoned)

Blowpipe:
20 shots, 18" maximum range, but more likely 12" max range due to needing short range.

6+ to hit = 3.33 hits (ish)
auto wound = 3.3 wounds

So more overall wounds with blowpipes, if only by a tiny margin, but blowpipes are much more effective vs other things (like giants) and are 10 points cheaper, so for the same points you can afford 22 blowpipe shots, which probably knocks the average up to almost 4.

Considering i would never go into combat with T2 Ws2, the 6+ save from shooting is negligable. Even if you get 10 saves against S3 shooting, your only likely yo save 2 of them, and you get an extra model if you dont buy the javs, thus negating one of the saves

I still prefer blowpipes, 6+ to hit or not. But i give you javs are "better" in close combat.

kdh88
24-02-2009, 22:41
Basically, this was a gigantic :wtf: move by GW. Blowpipes and javelin/shield were pretty much perfectly balanced against each other at the same price. You can go and look at the old tactica threads and see people going back and forth about which one is better with no conclusion.

Spirit
24-02-2009, 22:50
Yes, pretty much, i do not see much difference, i would choose pipes somply because they will roll more 6's. The point cheaper seals the deal.

Conotor
24-02-2009, 23:33
The problem is that they do not cancel ranks, so all your enemy has to do is kill 1 or 2 more than you are your entire unit has a useless combat phase (assuming they flank something thats already engaged, otherwise they are just gonna die anyway) and at Ws2 t2, this shouldn't be hard. I wouldn't consider them an option for flanking. Only for killing enemy flanking units, but i think blowpipes do this more effectivly.

They can break units that are 1 rank deep (heavy cav, for example) by outnumber and flank.

SteelTitan
25-02-2009, 07:27
Most units that are one rank deep (for example one rank of dark riders) have a US of 2 a piece, which totals to either 10 or 12 (6 wide is a common formation for heavy cavalry). In that case you are STILL outnumbered and also probably charged. No way, even against fast cav like dark riders or anything but a bag of cotton candy, that the odds of winning are with you.

I agree with Spirit. Like he said BP are really good against things like giants and other monsters, bypassing their toughness (what it is really about), which is really the thing that your Saurus do not want to fight with or have their flanks threatened by. This makes skinks in general and especially BP skinks (its all about 6s bypassing toughness) are all about. But you probably wont agree ;) But that's what makes this game so divers so no biggy :)

The thing that im trying out now is

2x10 skirmishing skinks w/BP
2x10 RnF skinks w/Jav

I split these up, probaby one of each on each flank and they support each other. For the max damage output i rely on the BP, for some additional damage on the RnF but they are mostly for diverting charges, flee bait, etc taking pressure off both center and flank.

One such tag team (1x unit RnF 1x unit skirmisher BP) took out a bloodthirster in ONE round of shooting. It flew towards me in his first turn, i moved in in my first turn, opened up: Jav skinks causing 1 wound (3 poison), the BP skinks causing 4 (5 poison)....bloodthirster said POEF back to the warp in which it was spawned :D Now, that is what i call awesome shooting!