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View Full Version : Razordons vs Salamanders



coalescence
23-02-2009, 20:55
I hear alot of different things to whats actually better. I understand that it's a matter of taste and at what units they are shooting. But can someone give an actual breakdown of what's a better choice for the points?

Vsurma
23-02-2009, 21:09
Combined with the -3 ld spell from the lore of death salamanders are wicked!

Each unit causes its own panic test at -1 as long as they make just 1 kill!

I guess you might get a 3rd test once you manage to kill 25% of the unit, possibly 3 panic tests.

Granted this is part of a greater strategy and not just the unit on its own but its still worth noting.

Salamanders take out rnf units and high armour targets though with s3 not so great against alot of high armoured things like say T4 knights, -3AS or not you still need 5s to wound.

I would use them against large blocks and against that 1 unit you want to get running.

razors are also great for killing rnf since they won't be caught and can run circles around them, also good against light infantry etc.

2 artillery dice stand and shoot is nice also.

I will go with sallies myself for the greater scheme of things,

Nicha11
23-02-2009, 21:19
I prefer Razordons myself, they can really harrass enemy units and my opponents are loath to charge them.

Neckutter
23-02-2009, 21:23
my sallies in 3 games have done nothing with their shooting. its getting pathetic. they do well in HtH, but not their shooting. it deviates and all sorts of misfires happen. ugh.

since i refuse to buy a new pack of razordons for 25$ a piece(which means i need to buy 3), i will just put the point in more saurus/temple guards.

badgeraddict
23-02-2009, 21:30
I have no problems with charging Razordons...extra chances to munch skinks!

Jericho
23-02-2009, 21:32
Razors have appeared to be more reliable in the games I've seen. It's a shame they look a little funny tho :(

Spirit
23-02-2009, 21:45
I think salamanders are very under rated.

The panic checks do more damage than the razordons killing a few models, my skinks are just as good at killing models, so i would rather have the panic checks!

Hide your salamander on the flank of a stegadon and they are very hard to stop, get them on the flank of an enemy army and you can hit more than one unit, then it gets nasty.

Combine with 3x US 2 terradons and the enemy better not fail and panic checks!

McMullet
23-02-2009, 22:12
Each unit causes its own panic test at -1 as long as they make just 1 kill!

I guess you might get a 3rd test once you manage to kill 25% of the unit, possibly 3 panic tests.

A unit only ever takes 1 panic test per phase, regardless. So however many Salamanders shoot, 1 panic test.

Razordons look to be more versatile and reliable to me; but Sallies have the potential to be awesome against armoured targets.

Champion89
23-02-2009, 22:33
Two salamanders scorched all but one of my shadow warriors one game. That was when I decided to shoot them. The remaining one after shooting then moved on to kill 3-4 sword masters. I then charged and killed it with my remaining 3 sword masters.

Never played against Razordons though.

WarmbloodedLizard
23-02-2009, 22:45
Definitely Salamanders. But in a 2k game, I'd take both. if I have to choose, I take salamaders most of the time. against stuff like woodelves, though, razordon are monsters.

Vsurma
23-02-2009, 23:03
Ah ok just 1 panic test, well at -1 even ld10 models will fail about 40% of the time.

I can't imagine many enemies will like those odds with their 600+pts unit with lord inside, sure they might rally (but the -3 ld can still effect them the following turn) but they lose alot of time and you can always pull the trick off again :)

ld9 with -3 is not so pretty!

Sallies might do well in packs of 3 if you can afford them, 6 artillery dice for stand and shoot doesnt sound to bad on a fear causer with 6 S5 attacks in CC.

Axis
24-02-2009, 00:59
sallies kill regiments and DESTROY elves, they are best against 20mm bases tbh. Razordons are quite good and also destroy elves (partly because all shooting destroy elves), especially against frenzied troops.

I think it is preference and also it depends on what else you have.

Dead Man Walking
24-02-2009, 01:47
Sallies + slaan with spell to lower leadership by 3 =win!

Gork or Possibly Mork
24-02-2009, 02:32
I voted for sallies. A few reasons why I like them better.

Sallies have a better "potential" range although random. movement 6 ( assuming they can't march and fire)+Artillery dice Potential 10+ the flame template which I believe is 8". So there average range is about 18" to 20".
The panic test and being able to overshoot is priceless. Especially when combined with Doom and darkness as others have mentioned.

Alot of people seem to think sallies are great against knights do to -3 to AS. I disagree ( unless you can flank them). Do to the random artillery distance they're much more reliable against large rank and file units. Especially elite rank and file with decent but not great saves such as Blackguard etc. Imo even one salamander is a threat but 1 razordon not so much.

Razordons are excellent on the flanks as a deterrant just for the fear of the stand and shoot alone. I would never bring more than 2 in a unit or your asking for a misfire and no stand and shoot and skink snacks. Because they get two artillery dice on stand and shoot thier riskier than sallies. Granted the potential rewards can be more shots than even Tzeentch flamers but with 3 razors x2 artillery dice each on stand and shoot the math says you will misfire on one of them, not get to shoot at all and munch D3 skinks. Much less likely with sallies which is why I like them better.

With that said I like to field both units but I would never go more than 2 sallies or razors per unit. It becomes too risky and expensive.

Necromancy Black
24-02-2009, 03:11
I actually had 3 Sallamanders in two 2250 games against WoC. I got a single misfire in those two games!

Sallamanders are my favorite, for the reasons said over and over again. Oh, plus if you get a situation where it's a straight line from sallamanders to unenaged unit to unit in close combat, you can hope to roll enough to scatter the template into combat. Yet to get a good situation where I can do this but the rank reduciton it could cause would be worth it.

Gork or Possibly Mork
24-02-2009, 03:30
I actually had 3 Sallamanders in two 2250 games against WoC. I got a single misfire in those two games!

Sallamanders are my favorite, for the reasons said over and over again. Oh, plus if you get a situation where it's a straight line from sallamanders to unenaged unit to unit in close combat, you can hope to roll enough to scatter the template into combat. Yet to get a good situation where I can do this but the rank reduciton it could cause would be worth it.

Yeah I meant I would never take 3 razors in one unit. The only reason I wouldn't take 3 sallies in one unit is price. I'd rather spend on another skink unit. 2 are really
effective enough for me.

Staurikosaurus
24-02-2009, 03:36
I've used both but I'm a big fan of the salamanders. If you march them up a flank you can fire down an opponent's battle line AND march block - as well if you overshoot the target, you're more likely than not to hit another unit. It's a beautiful thing. I tend to follow mine around with a lowbie skink priest casting portent of far on them (or the razordons). That little spell makes either of the hunting packs complete monsters.

I run units of 3 salamanders and I've had them wipe out entire regiment blocks (dropped a block of 25 swordsmen down to 3 and on a separate occasion a unit of ironbreakers from 20 down to 8) lol :p

Jericho
24-02-2009, 04:25
Ah ok just 1 panic test, well at -1 even ld10 models will fail about 40% of the time.With Ld9 (10-1) they fail 16.7% of the time actually. 27.8% for Ld8, 41.7% for Ld7, etc. etc. etc.

The turn 1 march and then get flank shots isn't a bad idea. It takes a lot of the randomness out of their shooting phase, that's for sure. Might have to make a note of that one in case I go my Southlands-style Skinks + Big Gribblies list :)

maze ironheart
24-02-2009, 14:36
I prefer Razordons myself, they can really harrass enemy units and my opponents are loath to charge them.

I have to aggree as salamanders are great theirs that chance of over shooting units.Plus by harrassing the enemy units they got 2 choices charge or get shot to death I plan to have 2 units of 2 razordons.

Vsurma
24-02-2009, 14:55
I meant with the -3ld as I was talking about salamanders so ld9=ld6 test, fail some 50% of the time I believe.

Ld 10 units will be rolling on ld7 meaning 58.3% success rate if my maths was correct.

100/36*21 (as of the 36 possible combinations on 2d6, 21 roll a 7 or higher)

I cannot imagine many people will like those odds on their 600pts killer unit!
Also the ld modifier may stay with the unit the following turn!

I am really liking death as the lore for the slann against any non immune to psychology armies.

Phazael
24-02-2009, 15:02
Salamanders, hands down, at least for competitive play.

Even if you assume that Salamanders cannot march and breath, their ability to flee a charge and superior range give them a massive edge over the Razordons on mobility. I have already won games against Lizards because of their inability to flee with Razordons costing them tactically.

The shooting attack of Salamanders is also infinately more flexible, being a solid troop chewer and pretty descent and penetrating armor. The Razordon is basically a glorified Lead Beltcher with some easily killed skinks following it around.

dsw1
24-02-2009, 15:05
Each unit causes its own panic test at -1 as long as they make just 1 kill!
where is the rule saying -1?
I guess you might get a 3rd test once you manage to kill 25% of the unit, possibly 3 panic tests.
Are you talking about multiple phases as only 1 panic test maybe taken for a unt per phase (page 49 of the big red book)


I personally think it is based upon now how good they are, but how you use them. with potential, the razordons come up trumps (how ever unlikely, 60 hits from being charged) but for practicality i'd say Sallies seem to be excellent.

I think, till I have tested the sallies out, I will refrain from making a full judgement, but it has some stiff competition (The razordons shot down 6 black knights that charged them, and proceeded to burn many a zombie and skeleton and one of those tough and rare bat things the vamps have :confused:).

Kongen
24-02-2009, 15:05
Have I missed something?
Or does it state in the rules, that sallies give -1 to the ld check they force? I dont have my armybook infront of me, so cant check..

Vsurma
24-02-2009, 15:41
No I was thinking if the unit is below half strength or something but I am probably mixing things up with 40k rules.

Well regardless, ld 7 or below will be running fairly often with a normal check and even ld10 will be heading for the hills if you can get that -3ld spell off from the lore of death.

I think I will be running my slan with death fairly often.

blackjack
24-02-2009, 15:41
I have to admit I did not like either unit at the start but I have had great luck with Sallies, Failed enemy panic tests have consistantly helped me win games.

Bac5665
24-02-2009, 15:55
Sallies will get more hits and will do more damage to things that are actually scary. Monsters are really the only thing that Razordons are better at killing, and that's too limited a roll for a fairly expensive rare choice. I'll take them in larger games, but leave them at home for 2250 games.

Amornar
24-02-2009, 17:27
I think it all comes down to what are things in the army best at attacking. Salamanders have a niche against any RnF, particularly t3, small base RnF. Then we have big monsters and such which skinks with poison are best against, with some help from the steg bow. That leaves Razordons shooting at basically ogre sized units IMO, but even then a unit of skinks will be quite good at killing minus the random number of shots of the Razordons and risk of misfiring.

decker_cky
24-02-2009, 17:42
Salamanders are much better. They have the auto-panic tests for the Ld based armies, and they have flaming attacks, which makes them useful against the 2 biggest non-Ld based armies (plaguebearer bunkers in daemons and graveguard bunkers in VC). They're a solid unit in general, but the metagame makes them even more important.

edit: The salamanders can also kill the handlers from hydras, making them handy there as well.

Kerill
24-02-2009, 17:49
I think salamanders work very well with just one sallie per pack whereas razordons would do better with at least 3 and some extra handlers.

Razordons do better against multi wound troops (monsters, ogres etc.) and a unit of 3/4 is also very likely to cause a panic test.

Still overall I like salamanders better.

loveless
24-02-2009, 18:20
Razordons are tactically cuter.

sulla
25-02-2009, 00:06
I'd go razordons. They give the lizards a nice counter to fast stuff. Sallys are for killing rank and file and even then, they suck if the enemy is on a 25mm base. Razors kill fast cav, flyers, chariots etc pretty well. Saurus kill infantry well enough. You just don't need the anti RnF in my opinion.

Cry of the Wind
25-02-2009, 01:05
I haven't used the razordons yet but love the new salamanders. They fill a niche in the army while the razordons can be replaced by terradons and skinks. Fast cav bugging you, drop rocks, monsters hurting you, poison attacks from skinks. The salamander can make units disappear in one shooting phase with a single kill, something that won't likely happen with a razordon. Also the fact that you need only one salamander to get job done saves you points for other stuff. I can't see one razordon changing a game. Combine that with the ability to flee and having the same stats in combat and it is a clear choice to me.

Dungeon_Lawyer
25-02-2009, 01:46
Sallies + slaan with spell to lower leadership by 3 =win!

I am taking sallies to quake city rumble tourny in June. You can bet I am going to try this tactic against a low LD army . Nice one!:D

Vsurma
25-02-2009, 09:19
I suggest you try it on HIGH ld armies! after a -3 mod there is no such thing as high ld :)

I am personally gunning for that ld9-10 monster CC unit with lord inside.

Atzcapotzalco
25-02-2009, 11:58
Refuse to vote-their roles are sufficiently different to prevent a direct comparison from being applicable. Razordons are a stronger all-round missile unit, and for a short-ranged unit vulnerable in combat the stand-and-shoot reaction is a massive edge, but given the right targets salamanders significantly outshine them in raw damage, and also have a big advantage in inflicting a panic test even on a poor round. Personally, I used my old salamander's to useful and sometimes devastating effect until this week when the razordons became available, and now intend to use both.

Dungeon_Lawyer
26-02-2009, 19:35
I suggest you try it on HIGH ld armies! after a -3 mod there is no such thing as high ld :)

I am personally gunning for that ld9-10 monster CC unit with lord inside.

Such as? Who/what CC units would you be gunning for specifically in lets say, WOC, DOC, HE, and DE armies--Since these make up the majority of the tournies armies....

Thanks!

maze ironheart
27-02-2009, 12:51
Just had a game against a High elves player who uses a cavalry army he tryed to get his fast cavalry to try and flank charge my saurus but the razordons protected the flanks which saw both units of cavalry being shot to death.Before someone says you got lucky one razordon decided to shoot chow down on 3 of the skinks I have them in 2 units of 2 on each flank and they do the job well.

MarcoPollo
27-02-2009, 21:49
I chose razordons. They seem able to dish out alot of damage to anything. Sure they have to stand and shoot, but atleast they get double shots for that.

I'd say this, if you want sallies, then split them up. 2 units of 1 or whatever. If you are going for razies, then keep them together as their combined damage potential will cause enough wounds to force a panic test.

Gork or Possibly Mork
28-02-2009, 01:12
I have played with both and like both of them. Each type has it's uses. Regardless of type razors or sallies I like to run 2 beast of each type. With 2 they put out enough damage without being too pricey and are not too shabby as flankers in combat. If I must choose though I'd have to go with sallies for the reasons I said before.