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Valharik
24-02-2009, 12:38
As far as we know, the most important eldar gods were killed by Slaanesh. In the present day only exists Cegorach, Isha -who is a prisoner of Nurgle-, and ...Khaine? if we can consider being part of thousands of iron statues a way to live, or just a "residual" existance...

But the eldars in some way worship them, or atleast follow the paths they represent. And the gods, except the CīTan, are a reflection of the thougts, instincts and feelings of the mortals. So, maybe their pressence in the Warp could be stronger in the future, or they could be forming again just now?

grissom2006
24-02-2009, 12:49
not really but they are trying to create one through the waystones old fluff i know but one they do seem to like hinting at now and then last taster i recall was eldrad regretting he wouldn't get to see it's birth

Caelnaethon
24-02-2009, 13:04
If the Eldar gods were/are reflections of the Eldar psyche in the Warp, similar to the Chaos gods, then yes - they should still be out there in a weakened state, or re-forming. The trouble is that Khaine (in his broken form) and the Laughing God are still going, apparently unhindered by the Fall, while Asuryan and others are apparently gone completely. To me, this suggests that the Eldar gods don't work the same way as Tzeentch, Nurgle, Khorne and Slaanesh, but are a different, smaller-scale kind of being; Old Ones whose mastery of the Warp went so far that they became partially merged with it, like Daemon Princes. This to me explains how Khaine could have absorbed part of the essence of the (fully physical) C'tan Nightbringer and had it affect his personality and powers.

This would mean that the ones Slaanesh devoured aren't coming back... but then, Asuryan is called the Phoenix King, so who knows?

Hellebore
24-02-2009, 13:21
Their gods are warp entities formed from souls and emotions. So they should exist like all warp gods, dependent on their power base.

The biggest problem is that no eldar souls go into the warp anymore, so their gods are not receiving the kind of power they need to keep going. Only Khaine and Cegorach get souls, either through the resurrection of the Avatar by sacrificing the young king, or through the ritual that binds a harlequin's soul to Cegorach, protecting them from Slannesh and increasing Cegorach's power.

Apart from Cegorach and Khaine, there are other soul gestalts that are slowly increasing in power. The Exarchs and Phoenix Lords slowly increase in power every time another soul is added to them. They however, are aspects and daemons of Khaine and are possessing and animating suits of armour

Ynnead is forming precisely BECAUSE no eldar souls are going to the other gods. Their souls are being stored in a galactic wide souljar, all of similar mind and temperament - being trapped in a half sleep state with the destruction of their race large in their minds.

Ynnead is what is happening to the eldar soul pool, and it says much that he is a god of death or the dead rather than a phoenix god or goddess of the harvest. The Fall psychically scarred the eldar so that even in death their souls are not free of it, it looms as a dark stain in their psyches. This is why Ynnead will be a much darker, more sinister god than any they have had before.

Hellebore

stormblade
24-02-2009, 13:54
Nice theories- both of them.

Bassik
24-02-2009, 15:59
Did you know you could scatter a sponges' cells all over an aquarium, and they would still be alive, even trying to reassamble itself?
This is realy true.

I guess the same would be for the Eldar gods (At least, if they are the same type of non-organisms the Chaos gods are).
But as the spongecells never succeed in recreating their former state, be it because halfway different parts settle on the floor, or they create new cells, the Eldar gods shall never be restored to what they where.
Now, gods obviously don't multiply. If they did, Slaanesh would have found out by now.
But their "cells", or whatever the living unit of a god is, will try to be restored, perhaps joining "cells" from other gods, just like sponges (yes them again) from different species might join up.
Now, I believe that's a point where my analogy becomes a bit shaky, but we can certainly immagine a more powerfull deity absorbing the weaker ones, especially now competition for Eldar-power is so high.

And as with sponges, most of the new god would probably be made up of new "cells".
To get new "cells", a god needs food. Souls, believe, emotions, the works.
And so, here we are at the point of my speculation. The new god, affcorse, is Ynnead, and it is getting its food from an untapped source, just like Hellebore explained.

And so, in conclusion, the Eldar gods are not just able, but likeley to be reborn.
But it will be very different from their old state.

Shamfrit
24-02-2009, 16:10
I always thought this was the way:

The Eldar die in the Rhana Dhandra. The final act of the Eldar is to unleash the collective conscience harvester into the Infinity Circuit, which becomes a Warp God not in the Warp, but in the Material Universe. Ynnead destroys Slaanesh, (by using the Remnants of the Infinity Circuit and the Webway to cross into the Warp,) he's too strong for Slaanesh due to the huge amount of time spent growing, and that he was manifested in he material world.

The destruction of Slaanesh allows Khaine to regroup, the free fragments of the God of War return, and then the final days of the Eldar race are spent with their Gods dying in a cataclysmic battle with the remaming Chaos Gods. The Eldar's job is done after all, Slaanesh is dead, dying, broken.

In the vacuum, the Imperium goes into turmoil, although free of one god, the remaining three in their struggle with the last of the Eldar Gods fall to civil war and try everything to get followers - civil and cultist activity explodes, and a war errupts again, a second Heresy.

Shortly after, the Tau Empire is destroyed by the Necrons and Orks, the Orks and Necrons engaged and remain so. The Empire implodes.

And to top it all off, the Tyranid Swarm arrives, and obliterates every living thing in the Galaxy.

All because the Eldar finally predicted something right!

Gotta love it :D Ynnead is awesome.

Temmy
24-02-2009, 16:23
Warp gods are a reflection of real world emotions and concepts. The Eldar gods represented the collective self image of the eldar people. As that image changed, most of the gods were absorbed into slaanesh. For the old eldar gods to be reborn, the Eldar would have to return to their old collective self image.

However, the current problem is that the Eldar, as a species are rather like a recovering drug addict. While the eldar hate and fear Slaanesh, deep inside Slaanesh still rules them. They have controlled the behaviours and attitudes that lead to the creation of Slaanesh, but this is a thin and fragile veneer over something much darker. Like a serious addict, they can not allow their discipline to slip, even a bit, or the darkness they all fear but secretly crave will instantly take over. The Chaos within them is not conquered, merely suppressed.


Because of this, the Eldar are still creatures of Slaanesh. Inside they are still the same hedonistic sensual beings that created the lord of pleasure. Until the Eldar truly master the negative aspects of their psyche, as opposed to merely controlling them they can never actually conquer slaanesh or recreate thier old gods. They can only create something that represents their own desperation, Ynnead or unify with the being that currently reflects their true self, Slaanesh.

Caelnaethon
24-02-2009, 16:56
Their gods are warp entities formed from souls and emotions. So they should exist like all warp gods, dependent on their power base.

The biggest problem is that no eldar souls go into the warp anymore, so their gods are not receiving the kind of power they need to keep going. Only Khaine and Cegorach get souls, either through the resurrection of the Avatar by sacrificing the young king, or through the ritual that binds a harlequin's soul to Cegorach, protecting them from Slannesh and increasing Cegorach's power.
But before the Fall, didn't all Eldar souls reincarnate into new bodies? So there were no souls going to the Eldar gods and staying there then, either.

Iracundus
24-02-2009, 18:33
The Eldar die in the Rhana Dhandra. The final act of the Eldar is to unleash the collective conscience harvester into the Infinity Circuit, which becomes a Warp God not in the Warp, but in the Material Universe. Ynnead destroys Slaanesh, (by using the Remnants of the Infinity Circuit and the Webway to cross into the Warp,) he's too strong for Slaanesh due to the huge amount of time spent growing, and that he was manifested in he material world.


Quite why Ynnead should be believed able to defeat Slaanesh is never explained. It may be an unrealistic hope. Consider the fact that Slaanesh now has an active base of worshippers and soul intake among humans, while Ynnead is limited to the far smaller population of Craftworld Eldar. Even if each individual Eldar soul is stronger than an individual human soul, the sheer number of human souls that Slaanesh has as income would surely be a match or even exceed the amount of power Ynnead is gaining. Slaanesh is like a person getting 1 million pennies while Ynnead is like a person getting 100 dollars. The million pennies add up to more even though individually they are worth less.

Lockjaw
24-02-2009, 19:55
Eldar used to reincarnate before Slaanesh came and started eating their souls, if Ynnead is born and kills Slaanesh, would eldar start to reincarnate again?

Poseidal
24-02-2009, 20:35
Eldar used to reincarnate before Slaanesh came and started eating their souls, if Ynnead is born and kills Slaanesh, would eldar start to reincarnate again?
The universe probably isn't anything like what it is at 40,000. Rhana Dandra has happened and it's either birth anew (for everyone) or something completely different.

Quite why Ynnead should be believed able to defeat Slaanesh is never explained. It may be an unrealistic hope. Consider the fact that Slaanesh now has an active base of worshippers and soul intake among humans, while Ynnead is limited to the far smaller population of Craftworld Eldar. Even if each individual Eldar soul is stronger than an individual human soul, the sheer number of human souls that Slaanesh has as income would surely be a match or even exceed the amount of power Ynnead is gaining. Slaanesh is like a person getting 1 million pennies while Ynnead is like a person getting 100 dollars. The million pennies add up to more even though individually they are worth less.
Ynnead happens at Rhana Dandra. This is the end of the universe, so whatever happens, everyone loses; all life has died (effectively) as it is the final battle against chaos; whatever the outcome, chaos disappears through there being no warp signature from the living anymore.

Or something.

stormblade
24-02-2009, 20:38
Eldar used to reincarnate before Slaanesh came and started eating their souls, if Ynnead is born and kills Slaanesh, would eldar start to reincarnate again?

I thought it was the Kaelis Ra(The Nightbringer- I think) who, pissed of by his defet at the hands of Khaine, took away their immortality.

Poseidal
24-02-2009, 20:41
I thought it was the Kaelis Ra(The Nightbringer- I think) who, pissed of by his defet at the hands of Khaine, took away their immortality.
Nope, disappeared with Slaanesh.

Kaelis Ra has no influence over the immaterium.

stormblade
24-02-2009, 20:50
Nope, disappeared with Slaanesh.

Kaelis Ra has no influence over the immaterium.

Yes that makes sense- but I could swear that there was an article on the old GW site that implied that Nightbringer did this at the moment Khaine destroyed his necrodermis.

Rockerfella
24-02-2009, 21:18
Nope, disappeared with Slaanesh.

Kaelis Ra has no influence over the immaterium.

Ah, nope. it was Kaelis Ra's infection of Khaine that forever tainted the war god with the aspect of the reaper, thus handing down through some sort of racial osmosis the fear of death, and thus rebirth.

The Eldar could still re-incarnate now, they just fear death today as, where as in the days of yore, they didn't. Death meant nothing to them. I think this source was in that great piece written on the Cron page on the old website, detailing Khaines battle with the Bringer.

Slaanesh upset the balance in terms of souls being eaten after death, something the Eldar didn't worry about until the Khaine/Ra incident.


Yes that makes sense- but I could swear that there was an article on the old GW site that implied that Nightbringer did this at the moment Khaine destroyed his necrodermis.


Indeed. Its heavily implied in the article I mentioned above. I can't remember its name though. Apologies!

Hellebore
24-02-2009, 21:41
But before the Fall, didn't all Eldar souls reincarnate into new bodies? So there were no souls going to the Eldar gods and staying there then, either.

That is a good point, although in my view reincarnation didn't actually happen. I generally only talk about it when people mention the shamans that created the emperor reincarnating, because the entire eldar race reincarnated.

The problems with reincarnation are manifold which is why I'm not much of a fan. For starters, do new souls form? What if every soul that exists amongst the eldar is alive? Would children be born without souls because there is nothing to reincarnate into? Or would a new soul form? Then there is the matter of warp gods and how do the eldar gods work if they aren't fuelled by souls.
Khaine was supposed to have been fought over by Khorne and Slannesh when the latter was born. Khorne didn't like having part of his form stolen by Slannesh. So it certainly assumes the two are connected like all warp entities.


But, taking reincarnation at face value, how would it be explained? My view of the Hive Mind is that its a living god formed from the singleminded direction of all living tyranid creatures. It is possible, though unlikely that the eldars' souls were all so strong and focused and 'radiant' that they did a similar thing, created living gods.

Even if they were the souls of the old ones (not something I generally like), in the warp they would only be as powerful as their souls, unless they were fortified by other like souls. If they were small enough another entity could engulf them.

Or, as the eldar emote like no one's business, and they have exceedingly powerful souls, perhaps their emotions were almost as strong as every other race's soul energy. So one tearful glance from an eldar would be like the soul of a human in terms of warp energy.


However you look at it, this problem is fundamental to the eldar. Slannesh formed during the time the eldar could still reincarnate, so what was it forming from? Their emotions were being pumped into the warp continuously, so perhaps as I stated above, an eldar's emotions are 'worth' as much as soul energy from other races.

It would explain the creation of all the eldar gods in the context of reincarnation, including Slannesh. It would even explain why the eldar path focuses the emotions and sharpens the mind to avoid excess emotive radiation (I just made that up).

Hellebore

Poseidal
24-02-2009, 22:08
However you look at it, this problem is fundamental to the eldar. Slannesh formed during the time the eldar could still reincarnate, so what was it forming from? Their emotions were being pumped into the warp continuously, so perhaps as I stated above, an eldar's emotions are 'worth' as much as soul energy from other races.
It was formed by both the thoughts of the current living Eldar (as said in the original pre-2nd ed codex writeup) as well as those going through the washing machine. The reason Slaanesh consumes them is because in a way, they had become Slaanesh; their identity is fused to Slaanesh.

The rogue trader Eldar writeup is really interesting. There's probably some more here we can gather.

NightrawenII
24-02-2009, 22:20
The problems with reincarnation are manifold which is why I'm not much of a fan. For starters, do new souls form? What if every soul that exists amongst the eldar is alive? Would children be born without souls because there is nothing to reincarnate into? Or would a new soul form? Then there is the matter of warp gods and how do the eldar gods work if they aren't fuelled by souls.


This is maybe reason of *dying* race, because there arent souls for new Eldar. But you have good points.

Another:
If the Eldar reicarnate and the new souls arent form, mean this that number of Eldar are finite? So their population cannot grownt (before Fall)? What about memories and experiences? Can they remember their previous life?

Hellebore
24-02-2009, 22:26
It was formed by both the thoughts of the current living Eldar (as said in the original pre-2nd ed codex writeup) as well as those going through the washing machine. The reason Slaanesh consumes them is because in a way, they had become Slaanesh; their identity is fused to Slaanesh.

The rogue trader Eldar writeup is really interesting. There's probably some more here we can gather.

That's more like the hive mind living god concept. Souls are supposed to be the currency of the warp, so being made of emotions is a little unusual. Perhaps Slannesh would have worn himself out not long after being born because of a lack of support, were it not for humanity and other races taking up where the eldar left off.

Hellebore

Iracundus
25-02-2009, 06:32
The 2nd Eldar Codex (of which parts are reprinted in the latest Eldar Codex) sheds some information:



When their spirits eventually left their mortal bodies they dissolved peacefully back into the Warp to be reborn again; for the Warp did not have such a thirst for Eldar souls as it does today...Amidst the psychic energy of the Empyrean, the corruption of the decadent Eldar became manifest as their departing spirits began to coalesce into a gestal consciousness. -p.4 4th ed. Eldar Codex

From there we see it was the actual Eldar souls that started to aggregate and form Slaanesh, drawn to each other by their increasingly common traits. When this gestalt finally awoke, it consumed all those Eldar that were not able to escape. If that was that, then Slaanesh might very well have eventually faded from power. It was the godly equivalent of a beggar winning tens of millions of dollars in a lottery, vaulting from nothing to major player in an instant. However it managed to establish a worshipper base among humans to provide it with more souls, even if individually less powerful ones, and so Slaanesh not only survives but continues to grow, and retains a fondness for Eldar souls much as a child might have for candies.

ryng_sting
25-02-2009, 07:56
Theoretically possible, if only in the way that a Welsh World Cup victory is theoretically possible. Normally, so long as the emotions and rituals are observed on a large enough scale, the Eldar pantheon has the chance to regrow in embryonic form. It's just nothing that is an exclusive product of the Eldar psyche is going to last long in the warp without attracting Slaanesh's attention.

Valharik
25-02-2009, 09:24
I completely forgot Ynnead. Yeah, it seems that the Fall changed drastically not only the way to live, but the way to die. Its sad how some eldar worship Asuryan or Kurnous with fervor even when they know they are dead, and that will not change.

Iracundus
25-02-2009, 09:37
Ynnead will also be the first new Eldar god since the adoption of the Path system. Being composed of Path following Eldar might give Ynnead a very different perspective and attitude compared to the old Eldar gods. For one thing, he may be a lot more rigid and bound by duty than the Eldar gods of old, analogous to how in the 3rd ed. Eldar Codex the rune symbol for the Craftworld Eldar was rigid and crystalline compared to the more flowing forms of the Exodites and the Harlequins. I've always pictured Ynnead as being masked/helmeted like Farseers or Aspect Warriors/Exarchs: poised with grandeur but also faceless and cold.

Rockerfella
25-02-2009, 09:40
I think its fair to say that whatever he looks like, he'll be 'ard.

Iracundus
25-02-2009, 09:43
I think its fair to say that whatever he looks like, he'll be 'ard.

Debateable. As mentioned in my previous post, it is unclear just why the Eldar think Ynnead could possibly be a match for Slaanesh given how Slaanesh has a vast worshipper base while Ynnead is only growing from the trickling souls of a dwindling Eldar population. Slaanesh is likely growing at a faster rate than Ynnead.

Rockerfella
25-02-2009, 09:44
Ermmmm. I still think he'll be 'ard.

Valharik
25-02-2009, 09:56
That Ynnead will kick Slaanesh butt is not a hope or a bet, its a prediction, a prophecy. And that things doesnīt fail. ;)

Rockerfella
25-02-2009, 10:02
The thing is, Yneead will be made up from ancient, sentient souls, who've had ten thousand years and more of congntive awareness and angst, upset and pissed offness. These will be powerful, powerful souls who's very disdain, hatred and contempt for Slaanesh will enable them to power yneead to feats above and beyond that of a 'standard' new god, for me, at least.

Plus, what will Cegorachs involvement be? I'm pretty suer if Yneead awakes, Cegorach will make a play too.

Interesting stuff!

Idaan
25-02-2009, 10:11
They don't think he'll be strong enough, they hope so.

Eldrad knew he would not be truly alive when that time came, nor would his successors for a hundred lifetimes. In a moment of doubt, he wondered if it would ever come or whether they were all fools to believe there could be any escape from She Who Thirsts. Perhaps they would all die first, their distant dream unfulfilled. Perhaps he would not be strong enough.
So I guess Eldrad foresaw Ynnead forming is the only possible end scenario in which the Eldar win. It's unsure, but other options are even worse.

Darkstar2586
25-02-2009, 10:35
It was formed by both the thoughts of the current living Eldar (as said in the original pre-2nd ed codex writeup) as well as those going through the washing machine. The reason Slaanesh consumes them is because in a way, they had become Slaanesh; their identity is fused to Slaanesh.

The rogue trader Eldar writeup is really interesting. There's probably some more here we can gather.

Could it be possible then that those who travel the paths, and don't excess in those areas that Slaanesh is made up of wouldn't be eaten now. Infact it might be the whole reason for the infinity circuit was born out of need for those who had 'fused' to Slaanesh due to the way they lived their lives, and were trying to escape her grasp? Therefore making the infinity circuit redundant now, just the eldar dont want to take the risk their wrong?

If Eldar souls are so highly valued, why is it only Slaanesh who's taking an interest in them?

Caelnaethon
25-02-2009, 10:45
That Ynnead will kick Slaanesh butt is not a hope or a bet, its a prediction, a prophecy. And that things doesnīt fail. ;)
You hope. :p Much as the ability to see possible futures is one of the greatest strengths of the Craftworld Eldar, they're a long way off infallible. Otherwise they'd always succeed at everything they try to do, and who wants that?

Edit: Still, I think that although Slaanesh may have more soul power going for him/her/it, it could be argued that Ynnead as a god of duty will have particular power over a god of indiscipline and excess.

Poseidal
25-02-2009, 10:48
If Eldar souls are so highly valued, why is it only Slaanesh who's taking an interest in them?
This is due to a high amount of 'identity' being tied with Eldar and Slaanesh; Khaine is as much Khorne as Slaanesh (majority of Eldar physche at the time) and as an opposing force would or could not allow Slaanesh to consume him.

(remember they are not so much as actual 'beings' but a 'storm' of beings or 'vortex'.)

Caelnaethon
25-02-2009, 11:17
The problems with reincarnation are manifold which is why I'm not much of a fan. For starters, do new souls form? What if every soul that exists amongst the eldar is alive? Would children be born without souls because there is nothing to reincarnate into? Or would a new soul form? Then there is the matter of warp gods and how do the eldar gods work if they aren't fuelled by souls.
Well, this would be my answer: souls don't make life, life makes souls.

What we in 40k-related discussion refer to as a "soul" is not a metaphysical thing, a soul in the Christian or Platonic sense, but an accumulation of energy that marks most living beings' presence in the Warp. This much is a given. A soul in the classical sense is what gives life; here, though, it seems more likely that the Warp soul forms around the living being due to the fact that it is alive.

This answers one big question: where souls come from. At one point in the history of the 40k universe, there were mere thousands of lifeforms with their own warp presences. Then millions, now trillions or even more (with all the humans, Eldar, Tau, Orks, Kroot and others). There's apparently no shortage of souls, even though for millions of years there were no beings for them to attach to. Souls don't come from some eternal reservoir with a finite number, they form as needed.

So, when a new lifeform begins to think and feel (and affect the warp), warp energy clusters around them and mimics their thought patterns. Those with the correct genetic trait have a conscious or unconscious control over what this energy does, sending it out across the Warp like a mental radio signal to communicate telepathically, or pulling it into real space in order to manipulate it into a new form. They also tend to have a lot more energy cluster around them as they unconsciously draw it in with their talent. We call these people psykers. Others have a genetic trait that causes their mind to still and disperse the warp energy around them, including other people's, creating a localised dead zone. We call these people pariahs.

So how does reincarnation work? When a person dies, the warp energy that made up their soul sticks around for a while. It retains an imprint of their consciousness; it's an echo of their mind. The more energy there is, the longer it can stick around under its own power before it disperses completely into the Warp around it and becomes inert. But if, before then, the remnants of the soul happen to be pulled in by the initiation of a new life, and become the energy that will be that lifeform's soul, a trace of the dead person's identity will be preserved in the new whole.

All Eldar are psykers and their Warp-presence souls are especially "large" collections of energy. They're more likely to survive long enough in the warp to undergo this reincarnation. Not actually certain, mind; in my view, Asuryan had the job of guiding the drifting souls to where they could be reborn.


Ah, nope. it was Kaelis Ra's infection of Khaine that forever tainted the war god with the aspect of the reaper, thus handing down through some sort of racial osmosis the fear of death, and thus rebirth.
Which is utterly ridiculous and fails to make sense on many levels. If I remember correctly, the claim was that the Nightbringer brought the fear of death to all life other than the Orks. Isn't the fear of death the most - perhaps the only - natural and logical fear there is? One could almost go so far as to say that all fear is fear of something that resembles or suggests death, the ultimate and final negation of all that is me.

And while Khaine's relationship with the Eldar has typically been described as symbiotic (the Craftworld's preparations for war awaken the Avatar; the Avatar's hunger for battle inspirits the Eldar), the idea that Kaelis Ra passed on a fear of death through that link in the moment that he was being shattered into pieces by the shining spear of Khaine is... bizarre.

Rockerfella
25-02-2009, 11:37
Which is utterly ridiculous and fails to make sense on many levels. If I remember correctly, the claim was that the Nightbringer brought the fear of death to all life other than the Orks. Isn't the fear of death the most - perhaps the only - natural and logical fear there is? One could almost go so far as to say that all fear is fear of something that resembles or suggests death, the ultimate and final negation of all that is me.

And while Khaine's relationship with the Eldar has typically been described as symbiotic (the Craftworld's preparations for war awaken the Avatar; the Avatar's hunger for battle inspirits the Eldar), the idea that Kaelis Ra passed on a fear of death through that link in the moment that he was being shattered into pieces by the shining spear of Khaine is... bizarre.

Well, simply put, this is what happened in the article regarding the Eldar and reincarnation.

The Eldar were said not to fear death, because they just reincarnated and came back at will. The whole thing with the Nightbringer made them fear death, for whatever reason.

I'm not saying its right, i'm just saying what was written. I'm assuming you've never read the piece at hand? Its a brilliant piece of writing, for GW. I really enjoyed it. Gave the reader lots of little insights into the war in heaven, withouth really giving anything away.

Idaan
25-02-2009, 12:11
Yeah, I liked it too. Shame it is nowhere to be found (if you have Dawn of C'tan or Torturer's Tale saved on your drive, PM me please :)).
The reincarnation bit can be explained with "ultimately" in "thus the path of reincarnation was closed ultimately to the Eldar" meaning "in the end", not "at that very moment".
Khaine's corruption by Nightbringer is what eventually led to the Fall, which really ended the reincarnation process.

If not, the whole story is a transcript of an Inquisitor talking with a Magos, explaining an incomplete (missing the end of Vaul's fight with the Dragon) myth translated from a barely known language. It doesn't have to be true.

And while Khaine's relationship with the Eldar has typically been described as symbioticHis madness and rage led him to try to exterminate the whole Eldar race during War in Heaven, and with the contact with gods closed by Asuryan, he was probably seen as a devil-figure way until the Fall and fight with Slaanesh. So it's like saying that Satan's relationship with Mankind is symbiotic.

jimbobodoll
25-02-2009, 13:26
Back to Ynnead ("In-E-add"?) for a second and why he could be a souce of hope to the Eldar... If you think about what aspects of emotion fuel different warp entities/gods, then a god of the dead and death would surely have a power level reflecting the strength of this emotion... And as a previous poster has pointed out, the fear of death is so basic and primal that nearly ever living being would fuel Ynnead, not just the eldar...

Hell, Ynnead would even do battle with the chaos gods on this basis IMO. Take Nurgle for example, surely he works through creating hopelessness and inevitability... but most commonly this is of death (hence disease and pestilence). Suddenly, Ynnead pops up and starts nicking souls who are afraid of not hopelessness and inevitability but the more primal fear of death which these other emotions were working through... Thus in a sense, Ynnead, the god of the dead and death, through his more primal connections to a more fundamental emotion, is able to 'combat' Nurgle and possibly win.

You can extend this to Khorne in his aspect of "lord of skulls" as well... Skulls being manifestations of death... Take a blood crazed warrior wanting to -kill- his enemies, surely this wish for death would fuel Ynnead to a greater extent than the lord of blood and battles and rage?

Anyways, thats my 2p worth... What do you peeps think? Don't be too brutal i beseech thee!

archont
25-02-2009, 15:06
Also, just to throw it in, consider this:

The Warpgods need souls to sustain themselves, it's their fuel, so while the argument, that Slaanesh has a broader powerbase and receives more souls is correct, he also feeds off these souls, needs constant resupply. Thus, his power should be capped somewhere by the sheer fact that there is only a finite amount of humans in the Galaxy.

For Ynnead it's different, the Eldarsouls in the Infinitycircuits of the Craftworlds are not being drained, they are pure, and they are massing until one day they can combine to something larger, even more powerfull than Slaanesh. From that point on, Ynnead will need souls and worshippers as well, but right after his formation he should be powerfull enough to battle Slaanesh.

Also: Eldarsouls are more than a thousand times more powerfull in a psychic way, than human souls are, so one eldar should equal alot of humans when considering the charge he gives to his gods battery.

Temmy
25-02-2009, 15:46
Debateable. As mentioned in my previous post, it is unclear just why the Eldar think Ynnead could possibly be a match for Slaanesh given how Slaanesh has a vast worshipper base while Ynnead is only growing from the trickling souls of a dwindling Eldar population. Slaanesh is likely growing at a faster rate than Ynnead.

I believe that the fate of Ynnead and the fate of the Emperor are closely linked. If the Emperor does arise as a warp entity, it will rip out that part of Slaanesh that was human and absorb it. At this point the Eldar will complete the awakening of Ynnead. To do this, every non-harlequin eldar in existence may well need to commit suicide at once and be added to the infinity matrix. This sudden infusion of emotions and shadow selves will create a kind of supernova of psychic energy that will ignite Ynnead into awareness.

The Eldar remember that when slaanesh was awakened, its explosion into the warp gave it immense energy. For a short time it was , at minimum, as strong as Khorne. The Eldar may be betting that the sudden burst of energy that creates Ynnead may for a short time give it enough strength to confront a weakened Slaanesh. Then the Eldar will find out if their desperate desire for salvation is stronger than their craving for sensual gratification.

Caelnaethon
25-02-2009, 15:52
I'm assuming you've never read the piece at hand?
I was under the impression that I had, but it would have been a while ago, and after so much time around 40k-related forums and such, I'm really not sure anymore...:confused:

I'll definitely give it a (re)-read if I can track it down. :)


(if you have Dawn of C'tan or Torturer's Tale saved on your drive, PM me please :)).
Ooh, seconded. I really miss the Torturer's Tale.

Rockerfella
25-02-2009, 21:04
Sorry I can't help you tracking it down. I used to have it saved on a seperate HD, but i've lost all that bumf.

And Idaan, i've not got a torturers tale i'm afraid. Its a shame, because those two pieces were two great sources.

Poseidal
25-02-2009, 21:22
Something new (old) for you.

Slaanesh (according to the Harlequin article in the WH40K RT compendium) was formed from the dead Eldar who had perished with their decadence coalesced in the Warp into Slaanesh.

It also says that mankind is heading towards the same sort of thing with their increase in psykers.