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brother_fandango
07-12-2005, 20:54
hi all. after doing a chimera for my inquisitor, i am inspired to do an Gaurd army. but my question is this. do sentinels, for some gaurd standards, required to be on two feet? i have a concept for something like a small buggy to represent sentinels. any ideas? suggestions? nohtings too outrageous, i have high hope for this army as far as conversions/ custom models go.

blitz589
07-12-2005, 21:01
As long as it fit on the same base, and im Sure a buggy would represtent armor 10 open toped quite well, some one at GW had a Halo Warthog, they entered for VDR, it had Armor 10/10/9, opentopeds, with a Auto Cannon, heavy bolter, or Multi Laser. The rules seem pretty similar to Setinels, and everyone let him use it as one.(Since he didnt win the VDR ,there employeys wouldnt let him use the other rules.)

starlight
07-12-2005, 21:01
Convert to your heart's content.:D

Seriously, as long as you are consistent and don't confuse your opponent, go for it. Conversions are (to me) one of the biggest parts of this hobby. I've seen Land Speeder based *dune buggy* Attack Bikes, four-wheel *Quad* style Attack Bikes, heck PG 57 of the Witch Hunter Codex they have a Gun Servitor based on a Sentinel!

Just have fun.:D

Sir_Lunchalot
07-12-2005, 21:04
Well, there's the whole bit about sentinels being walkers that means they should use legs of some sort. one legged hoppers would probably be a btsilly, so two legs would be needed. that said, there's no reason they can't have more than two legs. I think to get rules for a bugyg type vehicle you should try VDR.:chrome:

CELS
07-12-2005, 21:08
I see a bit of a problem with the walker rules, yeah. It's going to do extremely well in terrain, so you should at least convert the vehicle to be a an all-terrain monster with six wheels or more. Failing that, you can always do a squad of guardsmen on small buggies and call them rough riders ;)

azimaith
07-12-2005, 21:17
Sentinals have a WS thus there is a problem with making them non-walkers, how is a buggy supposed to get locked into CC?

blitz589
07-12-2005, 21:19
Sentinals have a WS thus there is a problem with making them non-walkers, how is a buggy supposed to get locked into CC?
The guardsmen on the inside, its not like they are gonna watch there buggy get attacked theyre gonna go die.

azimaith
07-12-2005, 21:20
The sentinal doesn't have a str 3, so I still don't see how you justify it, its not like a guardsman suddenly becomes buffer than a space marine because hes in a buggy.

starlight
07-12-2005, 21:23
It's a GAME people.:rolleyes: If he wants to have fun and doesn't confuse his opponet, who the heck cares what the model looks like?:rolleyes: With certain upgrades Ork and DE vehicles can *fight* in CC. People use *counts as* and proxies all the time.

Go for it. As long as your opponent isn't confused, it's fine.

See my Thread: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16787

blitz589
07-12-2005, 21:24
The sentinal doesn't have a str 3, so I still don't see how you justify it, its not like a guardsman suddenly becomes buffer than a space marine because hes in a buggy.
Ok put a robotic chain saw on it, its a conversion, do all models look like there stats.


Rhino-can it really carry 10 marines
Power Armor- not nearly big enough to represent +1 S, T, Ws, Bs, and a 3+ save, marines are bearly bigger then guardsmen.

CELS
07-12-2005, 21:34
It's a GAME people.:rolleyes: If he wants to have fun and doesn't confuse his opponet, who the heck cares what the model looks like?:rolleyes: With certain upgrades Ork and DE vehicles can *fight* in CC. People use *counts as* and proxies all the time.
Calm down with the eye rolling there, buddy, we all know that ;)

Similarly, he could use a Thunderhawk with Land Speeder Tornado rules, or Imperial Guardsmen with Space Marine rules (to represent that they're really beefcake!), as long as he has fun and has the blessing of his opponent. Yes, it is a game, but for a lot of people, the challenge of converting is trying to use new types of units that match the original rules. (Like using bikes instead of horses for IG rough riders, or Knight walkers instead of Defilers for chaos) For some people ;)

Griefbringer
07-12-2005, 21:34
The sentinal doesn't have a str 3, so I still don't see how you justify it, its not like a guardsman suddenly becomes buffer than a space marine because hes in a buggy.

Perhaps the buggy could have a big spiky roller in the front, or great grabbing claws, or a steam-hammer, or a big drill. Or what about an Ogryn sitting in the rear waving a big club?

TWB
07-12-2005, 21:34
Rhino-can it really carry 10 marines
Power Armor- not nearly big enough to represent +1 S, T, Ws, Bs, and a 3+ save, marines are bearly bigger then guardsmen.


Rhino's can carry ten marines, when they aren't stuck in "action poses" and to a big black disk.
Power Armour doesn't represent any of those stats other than Save, Marine implants and training account for the rest.
Marines are bearly bigger than guardsmen because guardsmen are way too big, compare an Ellysian model with a marine . . ..


The problem with saying "this isn't representative of this concept" is that very few are in WH40K, if you want to do buggies, skimmers or whatever for sentinels, go ahead, just make sure your opponant knows what they are.

What about Quad Bikes?

starlight
07-12-2005, 21:44
Like using bikes instead of horses for IG rough riders
Bikes and Cavalry have quite different rules. :p <---- Better? :angel: :angel: :angel:

CELS
07-12-2005, 21:50
LoL! Touché.

colhodg
07-12-2005, 23:01
A sentinel with multilaser comes out as 65pts, same as a light vehicle like a buggy. You give up the attacks for extra movement so yeah - I think a light vehicle could swap for a sentinel - especially in an armoured regiment.

http://home.freeuk.com/theuk/vdr/

marv335
07-12-2005, 23:11
iirc there was a rhino at golden deamon with 10 marines fitted into the interior. proving it can be done.

starlight
07-12-2005, 23:28
I used to have pics from the original guy who did it with 3rd Ed Marines in a 3rd Ed Rhino about five or so years back. They all fit, no problems.:D

Strikerkc
08-12-2005, 00:38
I really wouldn't convert sentinals as as bugies. If you want buggies, there are a couple really easy ways to do it and still have them count as vehicles as all.

You can eighter field them as Salamander fast attack vehicles, or you can purchase armored fist squads, but model their chimeras as the bugies. You get a nice little gun buggy with good fire power and armor, and you can just not put the armored fist into them (just use them more like an extra squad in an infantry platoon).

The differences between a buggy and a walker are just so compleetly different that it's not worth it. Especialy since there are so many more effective and logical ways to do it :).

Damage,Inc.
08-12-2005, 00:40
Wow, there's a lot of party poopers on here. Like the schematics of a model for a Sentinal erally matter. People cry about stifled creativity, then they shoot down new ideas. Chill out.

Great_Destroyer
08-12-2005, 01:41
Go for it, it is a good idea i think ,and if u dont do them as sentinals do them as chimeras.

ankara halla
08-12-2005, 01:56
Wow, there's a lot of party poopers on here. Like the schematics of a model for a Sentinal really matter.

Indeed, I couldn't agree more.
When the heck did this game became about something else than having a good time with like minded people playing a fun tabletop wargame with cool miniatures?

Seriously? Please, please somebody give me an answer to that...

Even in tournament level, as long as the model is about the same size and can't be mistaken for any other unit there shouldn't be a problem with anyone.
Why would there be?

Why???

Strikerkc
08-12-2005, 02:49
Wow, there's a lot of party poopers on here. Like the schematics of a model for a Sentinal erally matter. People cry about stifled creativity, then they shoot down new ideas. Chill out.

We're not saying buggies are a bad idea. it's just that the sentinal is one of the worst things to use it as a "counts as". They're slow as dirt unlike any buggie in the game, they fight in hand to hand unlike any other buggie in the game, they move through terrain unlike any buggie in the game.


Nothing wrong with buggies, it's just a real waste of a great conversion oprotunity to use the as sentinals. Use a salamander scout vehicle's rules or a chimera, heck, a hell hound. Or just VDR something.

I'm all for counts as, but the counts as model really does need to function at least a little like the model it's standing in for. And a sentinal and a buggie's similarities end at having an armor value.

Oxford
08-12-2005, 03:14
There was a IG 'Halo' army featured in OZ White Dwarf about the time the IG codex came out that used converter Landspeeder buggies as sentinels. I might add that the person responsible was praised for their creativity.:p

All this talk of sentinels and conversions has started me thinking about converting a chimera to look like an AT-TE walker. :D

Strikerkc
08-12-2005, 03:29
I might add that the person responsible was praised for their creativity.:p

Just becuase GW wanted people to buy 3 different boxed set and 2 extra sprues to kit bash a 55 point sentinal with ;).

brother_fandango
08-12-2005, 04:02
well. everyone who thinks they shouldnt be buggies.... i just finished my first buggy looking thing. its more of a "gaurdsman stands in back and shoots" type of thing. just for show, i made one with a little more "leg room" for a showcase commissar to ride in the shotgun just to make sure imperal justice is delivered with all speed to the enemy. i looks cool, and anyone who wont play it, well... they can just go cut some marines off a sprue and use those grey crusaders. hehehe. i love this hobby. i really want to put across the message that my army is pissed most of the time, not seeign their mates and all.

starlight
08-12-2005, 04:13
So......where are the pics?:D

azimaith
08-12-2005, 12:18
Perhaps the buggy could have a big spiky roller in the front, or great grabbing claws, or a steam-hammer, or a big drill. Or what about an Ogryn sitting in the rear waving a big club?

You should totally do the ogyrn thing.

Puffin Magician
08-12-2005, 12:40
As long as the proxy/conversion follows all the rules of the unit it is representing, the only problem there's going to be is with ignorant, creativity-deprived players. Nothing in the rules says "A Sentinel must look like a Sentinel", only that it has to behave like one.

"Walker = Buggy" might not be the best proxy but it's certainly do-able. Make Destroyer-style saws and blades on the front for the combat attacks, and a heavy weapon on the back. Nothin' to it.

I'd give it an odd wheel system, either many small wheels or thin tank tracks, it shouldn't look fast if it can only go 6" in the movement phase.

Model helicopters counting as a Vulture, Giant Nurgley slug counting as a Leman Russ, or The FSM [blessed be His Noodleyness] counting as a Defiler... as long as they behave how they're supposed to in-game, and WYSIWYG is clear, the only problems you'll encounter has to do with your opponent and not your models.

Khaine's Messenger
08-12-2005, 12:49
If only this (http://www.dp9.com/Products/918.htm) was in the right scale. :( ;)

blitz589
08-12-2005, 14:44
well. everyone who thinks they shouldnt be buggies.... i just finished my first buggy looking thing. its more of a "gaurdsman stands in back and shoots" type of thing. just for show, i made one with a little more "leg room" for a showcase commissar to ride in the shotgun just to make sure imperal justice is delivered with all speed to the enemy. i looks cool, and anyone who wont play it, well... they can just go cut some marines off a sprue and use those grey crusaders. hehehe. i love this hobby. i really want to put across the message that my army is pissed most of the time, not seeign their mates and all.
So its a warthog.

and where are the pics?

TWB
08-12-2005, 15:03
A couple of years ago somebody did a Catachan based "Airborne" regiment, all tanks were represented by converted Landspeeders and counted as their appropriate tank, didn't see anyone moaning about how "justifiable" it was, tha the Skimmer things he made didn't look heavily armoured enough to qualify as a Leman russ, this in my mind is exactly the same issue.
A small wheeled vehicle doesn't work like a light scout walker but when every action of the vehicle in question is decided by a D6 what does it matter? The Melee attack a sentinel can produce is easily explained as a ram (If you really need to explain it) or some close range blasting, you cetainly don't need to plonk some daft "Combat attachments" on the front because it has a WS stat.

Same with Bikers as Rough Riders, IG scout bikes are not the family car sized bikes of the Adeptus astartes, there is no way that it could be considered to give anywhere near the same level of protection, yet time after time people bring out the moan about increased toughness, it's stupid, nobody said they wanted +1T.

Some people need to redescover their imaginations . . . .

boogle
08-12-2005, 15:42
as i've said its the tournament mentality that is pervading throughout the hobby that leads people to poo poo perfectly good sugesstions

Gwedd
08-12-2005, 17:34
Comrades,

Well, I have a squad of IG Rough Riders mounted on bikes. No big deal. I treat them exactly as horse-mounted, same rules, same stats, etc. I also have a squad of regular Tallarn Rough Riders, and sometimes use both in the same battle.
I did up the conversions because i run a Mechanised IG force, and i thought the bikes would dovetail nicely with that doctrine, and they do.
I also use a "Command Car" for my Command Squad. I've included a couple if pix below. I count it as an open-topped Chimera. I pay the same points a s a Chimera, and it has the same benefits as a Chimera, it just looks different, and like I said, i consider it always open-topped.
I have no problem with special conversions. Rather than VDR stuff, I simply use the comperable standard vehicle and use those point costs/stats/etc.

Respects,

Gwedd

Great_Destroyer
08-12-2005, 20:34
I've got a quick ??? What is a VDR anyways???? plz answer....

Griefbringer
08-12-2005, 20:45
VDR = Vehicle Design Rules.

Eduard
08-12-2005, 20:54
You can Find them in Chapter Approved 2004.

Great_Destroyer
08-12-2005, 21:32
Thx i havent got the chapter approved so... didn't know that thx again.

Puffin Magician
08-12-2005, 22:14
You can find them here (http://home.freeuk.com/theuk/vdr/) too. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

Great_Destroyer
08-12-2005, 23:39
THat kicks major @ss Thx alot...:evilgrin:

blitz589
08-12-2005, 23:50
You can find them here (http://home.freeuk.com/theuk/vdr/) too. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
VDR is a little unballenced, or 270 pts, you get a Landraider with 2 demolisher cannons.

starlight
08-12-2005, 23:52
And Chimeras built with the VDR are double the normal cost:wtf::D.

cpl_hicks
09-12-2005, 00:14
All this talk of sentinels and conversions has started me thinking about converting a chimera to look like an AT-TE walker. :D

AT-AT anyone, not my model see the website for more images

Puffin Magician
09-12-2005, 12:36
VDR is a little unbalanced; for 270 pts, you get a Landraider with 2 demolisher cannons.
...and no other weapons, and no transport capacity. So really, you get the survivability and firepower of 2 Vindicators, for the price of 2 Vindicators.

And Chimeras are double the normal cost.
I think that's to stop people from trying to make better versions of existing vehicles. It's cheaper to take standard tanks than a VDRimera with Twinlinked Lascannons, or VDRuss with sponson Assault Cannons.

Some of it needs to be tweaked I agree, mainly the costs of weapons. Currently the Multilaser is the same price as an Autocannon and Lascannon.

Oxford
09-12-2005, 13:30
AT-AT anyone, not my model see the website for more images
Not quite what I was thinking (6 legs on an AT-TE) but its very nice.:D

brother_fandango
10-12-2005, 16:55
sorry everyone, i cant post pics till i get a digital camera.

TWB
11-12-2005, 01:06
I think that's to stop people from trying to make better versions of existing vehicles.

It was my understanding this was the main reason for the VDR being released, so that players could give their tanks peronalised weapon fits and such.
I'll assume it was a basic reconer for playtesters to attach a PV to a vehicle. Either way I think VDR is a little bit broken, it doesn't take the new Vehicle rules into account.

boogle
11-12-2005, 12:23
that why i get the feeling they will eventually appear updated in the advanced rules book (whenever we see that)

insaniak
11-12-2005, 23:10
It was my understanding this was the main reason for the VDR being released, so that players could give their tanks peronalised weapon fits and such.
Nope. They actually explained back when the VDR was first released that this was exactly what they didn't want. There are reasons for the weapons limitations on the existing vehicles, and they didn't want players circumventing that by being able to build exact copies with whatever weapons they wanted.

The whole purpose of VDR was to allow players to design and use their own unique vehicle designs... not to plug gaps in their army list, or to just swap weapons, but simply because tanks are cool.

brother_fandango
12-12-2005, 02:43
i calculated it out, and my custom built cost bout 6 bucks american
(3pounds?) and... its awesome. im gonna write some fluff on em. their name (of the squads, making a regiment).... i need soem help. i want something making them sound hard, but i want em to sound... excuse my french... badass. i want to make em sound like orders are optional to them.

SAMAS
12-12-2005, 17:55
A couple of years ago somebody did a Catachan based "Airborne" regiment, all tanks were represented by converted Landspeeders and counted as their appropriate tank, didn't see anyone moaning about how "justifiable" it was, tha the Skimmer things he made didn't look heavily armoured enough to qualify as a Leman russ, this in my mind is exactly the same issue.
A small wheeled vehicle doesn't work like a light scout walker but when every action of the vehicle in question is decided by a D6 what does it matter? The Melee attack a sentinel can produce is easily explained as a ram (If you really need to explain it) or some close range blasting, you cetainly don't need to plonk some daft "Combat attachments" on the front because it has a WS stat.

Same with Bikers as Rough Riders, IG scout bikes are not the family car sized bikes of the Adeptus astartes, there is no way that it could be considered to give anywhere near the same level of protection, yet time after time people bring out the moan about increased toughness, it's stupid, nobody said they wanted +1T.

Some people need to redescover their imaginations . . . .

Dude, it's not about stifling creativity. IMO, a skimmer that's actually a tank isn't very creative. It's just that the way I see it, if you're going to make a conversion as drastic as that, don't half-ass it, but go all the way and VDR the sucker.

Now don't get me wrong. "Counts as" in and of itself can open the door to some serious creativeness. But I say don't stop when there's clearly further to go.

But as to the OP, if you really want to show that it earns the it's S5, try putting an Ogyrn in the back seat. :D

brother_fandango
25-12-2005, 19:52
i think pics should be here. im learning to use my digital.

brother_fandango
25-12-2005, 19:55
i think pics should be here. im learning to use my digital.

http://warseer.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3964&stc=1&d=1135540388 (1)

http://warseer.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3965&stc=1&d=1135540388 (2)

http://warseer.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3966&stc=1&d=1135540388 (3)

SAMAS
26-12-2005, 01:17
Aww, how cute! :D

brother_fandango
26-12-2005, 02:09
yeah, its a cute little car of utter murder and destruction!!! i think it has aspirations to become a german half trak!

btw, the unit's name is the grease necks, beacuse they always make it out of tight situations.

Gecko
26-12-2005, 04:37
yes i can easily see that being a sentinel... since it is a half track i cant see it being obscenely fast. and also since the weapon is in a fixed position it would have to manuver itself to aim and fire with some decent accuracy... let your imagination run wild... nice job..

Blackadder
26-12-2005, 11:11
I am not sure but I think I read somewhere in the rules or VDR that converted vehicles still have to have the same dimensions as the original. A lowered Leman Russ has a tactical advantage where you don't pay any points for. The same applies for a buggy Sentinal, as it won't be as height as real Sentinal.
You could use your buggies if you would play against me, but only if you brought a Sentinal for size comparison.

Rabid Bunny 666
26-12-2005, 14:54
wouldn't think so, i was going to convert my ones to be 4 legged :D


The sentinal doesn't have a str 3, so I still don't see how you justify it, its not like a guardsman suddenly becomes buffer than a space marine because hes in a buggy.

cush, 'n' grind people :evilgrin:

brother_fandango
26-12-2005, 17:10
i think i might just add an aireal mast or somptin, just to say "yeah, thats the height of the sentinel." thanks for the feed back everyone.