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Far Seer
25-02-2009, 06:30
i want to base all my models well, except i'm wondering if bases affect line of sight, for example, i put some slate on my base and stick a model on top of it. the model is now higher than it should be. so would it be at a advantage and disadvantage, because then since it's taller it can spot more models and also be seen by more models.

Deus
25-02-2009, 06:37
I think in that case one would use the standard height for that model, just like for a model that is kneeling you would use its standing height.

slayerofmen
25-02-2009, 06:40
yeah with everyone I've ever played against the average base model size is used and to my understanding that seems to be a pretty widely accepted rule, due to the fact that GW were like look 4th ed go conversion nuts!! then turned around and said true los is win!

Occulto
25-02-2009, 06:50
yeah with everyone I've ever played against the average base model size is used and to my understanding that seems to be a pretty widely accepted rule, due to the fact that GW were like look 4th ed go conversion nuts!! then turned around and said true los is win!

4th ed used true LOS. :p

It was only combats and area terrain that used the levels.

Far Seer
27-02-2009, 10:02
oh good, i'll base my models straigt away! thx for the help.

a squig
27-02-2009, 10:10
if it raises the guys head a couple of mm to make it visable then its still gonna obsured, so 99% people would be ok.

Mega Nutz
27-02-2009, 13:19
How would you interpret this to 'flying' models? The reason I ask is I'm modelling a squad of storm boyz and was going to base five as per the box and for variation the other five on rods or parts of buildings simulating flight. This presumably makes them easier to target thus giving my oponent an easier time however, on the other hand being slightly taller would give me some advantage. Would you consider this to be equal or will some people complain or is it worth placing some form of marker equating to normal head height on the modelled base and taking LOS from this?

Bookwrak
27-02-2009, 15:35
LoS is based on what a model can see from its eyes, and shooting at them is based on on what models can see the main body of the target. So if you make some of your stormboys exceptionally elevated, they're going to have an easier time seeing and being seen.

march10k
27-02-2009, 15:47
How would you interpret this to 'flying' models? The reason I ask is I'm modelling a squad of storm boyz and was going to base five as per the box and for variation the other five on rods or parts of buildings simulating flight. This presumably makes them easier to target thus giving my oponent an easier time however, on the other hand being slightly taller would give me some advantage. Would you consider this to be equal or will some people complain or is it worth placing some form of marker equating to normal head height on the modelled base and taking LOS from this?

Jump infantry are, in some ways a special case. While it's true that LOS goes both ways, so you end up exposing yourself AND being more likely to see an enemy target to shoot at, jump infantry almost universally carry extremely short-ranged weapons (rarely over 12"), so that they end up exposing themselves to long ranged enemy fire for absolutely no benefit. I'm taking my seraphim off of their plastic rods (actually, half of them already broke, so I was going to have to come up with a better solution anyway.) I'm thinking that I'll perch them on bits of rubble to approximate the original GW-intended height, since I've long since clipped them off of their tabs.

On another note, I've seen some ridiculous abuses of TLOS, such as extra-tall exorcists (the whirlwind clone variant) with nothing but the missiles exposed...where the owner tried to claim a cover save for himself (tank obscured from my POV) and deny me one (no obscuration from the missile tube's POV):wtf::wtf::wtf:, or the much-discussed relocation of land raider godhammers to the top of the hull :cheese:

ctsteel
27-02-2009, 19:59
On another note, I've seen some ridiculous abuses of TLOS, such as extra-tall exorcists (the whirlwind clone variant) with nothing but the missiles exposed...where the owner tried to claim a cover save for himself (tank obscured from my POV) and deny me one (no obscuration from the missile tube's POV):wtf::wtf::wtf:, or the much-discussed relocation of land raider godhammers to the top of the hull :cheese:

That is the way it works. LOS is from the weapon mount, and LOS in reverse requires more than 50% of the hull to not be obscured. Quite simple.

Deliberately modelling to abuse it is poor sportsmanship I agree, but having that situation come up in a game, by moving your regularly-built model so that it just sticks out/over some terrain and utilising the cover in that way, is simply part of the tactics available.

SPYDER68
27-02-2009, 20:01
Kneeling Wraithlords to get cover from guardians ftw... ?.......

Playa
27-02-2009, 21:31
Hey,


i want to base all my models well, except i'm wondering if bases affect line of sight

Ref v5 RB p3: Models: All models have to be glued to their bases.

Not glued to something else that's glued to their base.
Not glued to something else's base.
Not blu-tacced to a flatwasher.

Glued. To the base it came with.

We must verify - before the game - that any "scenic" basing is acceptable to our opponents.

This is the rule in principle, but in practice, no one *has* to accept "impressive" models for play.
Yes, creative modeling is a recognized part of The Hobby, but so are gaming and diorama/ display.
Imo, kneeling Wraithlord/ top-mounted Godhammers belong in the last category.

If you want to game with models, remember the rules - and Occam's razor.
Anyone can refuse a game *and give no reason whatsoever*.
That doesn't mean there's no reason . . .


Playa

Lungboy
27-02-2009, 21:36
If you want to game with models, remember the rules - and Occam's razor.
Anyone can refuse a game *and give no reason whatsoever*.
That doesn't mean there's no reason . . .


That's nothing to do with Occam's Razor...

Neffertech
27-02-2009, 21:57
Well it's not Lex Parsimoniae no, but I think he's talking about would go as thus.

If somebody doesn't want to play with you, don't assume the reasons exist outside of the game.

Which is very much in the spirit of making as few assumptions as possible.

Lungboy
27-02-2009, 22:36
Which is very much in the spirit of making as few assumptions as possible.

But that's not Occam's Razor either :)

Neffertech
27-02-2009, 22:42
we're talking about William of Ockham right?

Occam's razor.

Statement that any explanation should have as few assumptions as possible?

The theory is used to remove those assumptions from the explanation of phenomena or in any theory of metaphysics? Later adopted by everyone and his sister, from scientists to bad TV writers?

http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/ockham.htm

Far Seer
03-03-2009, 07:28
wait, but how would u know the original height of your model?

holmcross
03-03-2009, 07:31
I've never punished players for creativity and conversions. I abse LoS upon what the GW's standard model size is.

Otherwise you'd be seeing power gamers trying to intentionally make thier models as small as possible.

wilsmire
03-03-2009, 07:46
I have but he was one of those guys that liked to power game. So i told him he could not use his dark eldar transports becouse he had a flight stands sticking out of the top of the old 3rd editon ruin buildings and he did not bring the standard bases. BTW walking Dark eldar vs a static Tau gun line is a massicure

PS sorry about the bad spelling

Lungboy
03-03-2009, 11:33
we're talking about William of Ockham right?


Yeah sorry, i should have said "that's not Occam's razor in this case either". Surely the only theory needed to explain the opponents behaviour is that he is a mardy git that isn't following the most important rule?

electricwolf
03-03-2009, 16:56
I have but he was one of those guys that liked to power game. So i told him he could not use his dark eldar transports becouse he had a flight stands sticking out of the top of the old 3rd editon ruin buildings and he did not bring the standard bases. BTW walking Dark eldar vs a static Tau gun line is a massicure

PS sorry about the bad spelling

like your example power-gaming goes both ways. I have been lucky enough to have good opponents where basing and being creative didn't matter.