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View Full Version : Bolt Throwers vs. Skinks/Krox unit



Jericho
26-02-2009, 18:09
Hey all, I was wondering if anyone has insight on how bolt throwers would pierce ranks against Skinks w/ Krox in the back.

The units I want to run are 16+2, in 5x4 formation. So far so good. I know what happens when you get hit with a cannonball (pick a line, and you hit whichever models you hit) but what about bolt throwers? I know they can't pick off characters/unit champs, but would they choose whether they hit the Krox in the back, or is it randomized somehow?

Cheers.

lcfr
26-02-2009, 20:47
I would say that what would happen is the same thing as if you were firing at a unit w/a character, you'd hit basic rank and file models. In this case, I would say the Skinks, assuming there is a complete file of Skinks.

There are probably some rules experts who won't be happy w/this, since I really have no way to support the claim that a kroxigor is to be treated like a character. If you and your opponent can't agree just roll off, the rules for BTs aren't clear about how mixed units would be affected.

theunwantedbeing
26-02-2009, 20:57
Randomise to see what you hit, then penetrate ranks as normal.
It's not complicated....

Dokushin
26-02-2009, 21:02
I've e-mailed askyourquestion where the new rules guru is, and the reply was that the bolt thrower hits only skinks. That's as official as we're going to get until a FAQ is released.

Necromancy Black
26-02-2009, 21:06
We played it using the rules for randomising in the kroxigor rules. It's the only rules we had to go by so we used them.

decker_cky
26-02-2009, 21:42
I think the most fair way to play the rules would be to randomize each time it gets through a kroxigor rank. This could cause it to bounce from kroxigor to skink and back with a flank shot, but it works with the intent I feel.

I don't think there's much of a clear RAW ruling available at the moment.

Urgat
27-02-2009, 06:05
I've e-mailed askyourquestion where the new rules guru is, .

The new rules who?

Nekrodamus
27-02-2009, 07:09
Randomise to see what you hit, then penetrate ranks as normal.
It's not complicated....

QFT as it's RAW

SabaLoth
27-02-2009, 07:50
doesn't a boltthrower hit as many models as possible? being the skinks in most situations.

Spirit
27-02-2009, 08:43
roll to hit the unit, if hit, randomise by using units special rules (1-4 skink, 5-6 kroxigor)

if you hit skinks, penetrate killinkg skinks, if you hit krox, penetrate killing krox.

TheDarkDaff
27-02-2009, 09:49
roll to hit the unit, if hit, randomise by using units special rules (1-4 skink, 5-6 kroxigor)

if you hit skinks, penetrate killinkg skinks, if you hit krox, penetrate killing krox.

Only useful if you hit in the flank or the Krox or skinks don't form a complete rank. Basically count the side of the unit as the "front" and randomise in that "rank" then move onto the next rank if you kill the model. If the first rank is all skinks then hit the skinks but if the second rank is all Krox then they cop the second "hit" as the bolt pnetrates (as per the Bolt Thrower rules). If you have 2 different types of models in a single rank then randomise who gets hit.

Dokushin
27-02-2009, 14:33
The answer I received from Games Workshop makes sense to me, as Bolt Throwers always hit "rank-and-file" models. Krox are not a rank-and-file in that mixed unit, they are an upgrade. If an assassin is in a DE block, do you hit it with a bolt thrower? No, of course not. Same principle. You only hit the rank and file models -- the skinks, in this instance. The rules have specific exemptions for characters, and you cannot arbitrarily extend those to cover unit upgrades.

Sifal
27-02-2009, 14:44
The GW answer is as official as it gets....the bolt thrower goes through a file of skinks.....

Spirit
27-02-2009, 14:56
yea and we all know gw are totally consistant with their answer giving...

Sarah S
27-02-2009, 15:40
The GW answer is as official as it gets....the bolt thrower goes through a file of skinks.....

Uh... No. Personal answers from GW are as unofficial as it gets, rules guy notwithstanding.

nosferatu1001
27-02-2009, 15:52
They are a unit upgrade, however I would say as you can pick them out with shooting (similar to a champion is an upgrade, but under certain circumstances can be picked out) the most sensible solution is to randomise for each rank the bolt passes through that contains this mixture.

My only query is would you count the Krox as being on 2 ranks, as that is how many models it displaces? Gives it 2 chances to be hit.

Dokushin
27-02-2009, 18:27
Uh... No. Personal answers from GW are as unofficial as it gets, rules guy notwithstanding.

I'll grant you it's not a FAQ, but are you seriously telling me official correspondence from a division of GW about the game they develop, publish, and maintain doesn't hold weight? Or at least more weight than the opinions of people not on their staff?

I've abided by e-mail responses good and bad, and only in very specific examples of trouble (conflicting responses to the precisely same question) is there room for debate; otherwise you are not playing Warhammer, which is, in fact, Games Workshop's game.

Sifal
27-02-2009, 19:41
indeed thanks for backing me up. the askyourquestion email service was put in place for specifically this reason. I makes more sense to follow GW ruling than to specualte and compromise rules. Or, worst of all, make up new ones just cos it makes more sense than a GW ruling.

ScalySkin
27-02-2009, 21:19
I think there are just lots of people with bolt throwers who want the rules to allow them to target the kroxigor and therefore they are trying to dis-credit the GW response. It doesn't make sense to roll to see who you hit out of the skink and kroxigor, if you were playing like this then hitting the kroxigor would mean you could no longer hit the skinks as the bolt went above their heads, and I'm not going to respond to the question about getting two chances to hit the kroxigor because it takes up two ranks!

GW has stated that you can only target the rank and file units, ie the skinks, so the question is answered, thanks for finding out for us Dokushin.

Nurgling Chieftain
27-02-2009, 23:11
I'll grant you it's not a FAQ, but are you seriously telling me official correspondence from a division of GW about the game they develop, publish, and maintain doesn't hold weight?Of course. It's just some guy. Actually, worse than that, it's just some anonymous person over the internet CLAIMING that some guy at GW told him something he clearly wanted to hear. (And another GW guy sitting next to him might very well disagree.) It's nothing like an official answer at all, and there's a reasonable probability that consecutive queries will receive different answers.


It doesn't make sense to roll to see who you hit out of the skink and kroxigor...How can that not make sense, given that that's a rule?

What I don't think makes sense is the assertion that the Kroxigor are not rank and file models. They are in ranks and files, and are not characters. There's no reason for them to be immune.

Neckutter
27-02-2009, 23:26
being as it doesnt have a strict rule, i would just discuss it with your opponent beforehand. if you two disagree, just 4+ it.

however it seems to me that the bolt thrower could hit the skink in the front rank, and then hit the krox in the "second rank" and then the skink behind that krox, if any. and indeed, maybe it is the shooters choice. maybe the single bolt could hit ONLY skinks, in which case the bolt will do a ton more damage.


unit of Skroxigors: where S=skink, K=Krox, and X=krox #2
SSSSSS
SKKXXS
SKKXXS
SSSSSS
example: my HE single bolt hits your unit of Skroxigor. i roll to wound the skink, it does. the bolt, now S5, then hits the next model in line which is a krox, it wounds the krox(and assuming it slays the kros with D3 wounds), then passes to the skink behind him. thusly hitting only 3 models, but able to wound the krox with D3 wounds.

and lastly, kroxigors arent unit champions and shouldnt be immune to shooting, should the unit be decimated by missle fire. they are rank and file models, because the book only allows for rank and file models, and command models. since the Kroxs arent command, then what are they?

Gork or Possibly Mork
28-02-2009, 00:55
They are a unit upgrade, however I would say as you can pick them out with shooting (similar to a champion is an upgrade, but under certain circumstances can be picked out) the most sensible solution is to randomise for each rank the bolt passes through that contains this mixture.

My only query is would you count the Krox as being on 2 ranks, as that is how many models it displaces? Gives it 2 chances to be hit.

Thats a very good point and I was thinking about this as well the other day.
I agree with others that it should be randomized as normal shooting against the unit is but like you said the krox counts as adding 2 ranks so bolts would have a chance of hitting them twice.

I think as a house rule atleast I would play it if it does hit the krox it just moves on to the following rank behind the krox. However if it hits the skink it still can hit the krox on the randomizing hit of the third rank.

Man I love my 17 skink ,2 krox 5 wide unit but Im thinking about not fielding them often anymore because of all the rules loopholes that come up with them.

ScalySkin
28-02-2009, 11:49
How can that not make sense, given that that's a rule?



Please quote the whole part relevant to what you are commenting on, as I said in the rest of the sentence that you neglected to quote, it doesn't make sense in the instance with the bolt thrower to roll to see who it hits, because if you roll to say it hits the kroxigor, then that means it went over the skink in front and would therefore go over all skinks if it continued after hitting the kroxigor.

Until there is an official GW response to this question, I guess we will just have to roll for it.

stripsteak
01-03-2009, 02:34
according to GW 'height' is all the same unless you have the specific large target rule. Kroxigors and Skinks are the same 'height' as far as the game system is concerned.